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The Priests

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Re: The Priests

Post by skyrocket on Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:08 am

I agree - the religious angle was for effect. It portrayed them as innocents caught up in a nightmare. It occupied the Mc's - it made them look like they were busy doing something, something which people around the world could relate to and would find hard to criticise. Going to church; going to Rome; going to shrines; meeting with priests/reverends for support. If it had been less publicised, it might have been more believable. The Catholic Church caught on quickly. There is also always the distinct possibility that there was a planned, more cynical and sinister aspect to the Mc's early involvement of the church.

My inlaws are catholic but not at all what I would class as devout. Having lived in many different locations, the first thing my mother-in-law always does before visiting us for the first time is ask us to check out the nearest catholic church so that she can at least go to mass once during her visit. She does the same on holidays abroad - always.

Susan Healy - 'Errm… because Kate and Gerry were not the most devout family. We do have Catholic faith, errm… it's… it's the religion that we were brought up in, but I would never describe myself as a devout person. We're just ordinary people, errm… but Kate certainly has… has clung to her religion, errm.. since this happened.'


The Healy parents come across as a decent, honest couple. Honest people find it difficult to lie with abandon. KM's mother quite obviously feels awkward when questioned about the Mccann's faith. Her use of language is almost scathing. Her own daughter and son-in-law have put her in an awkward position - love and loyalty versus truth. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that she is quite obviously very angry and distraught about the loss of her granddaughter, under what would appear to be preventable circumstances.

Susan Healy has displayed this (not always) suppressed anger towards the couple on several occasions - the faith issue (she appears as confused as the rest of us about their bizarre behaviour); the comments she made about the children having been left unattended (she reacted as if this was completely out of character for the Mccanns); the 'none' response when she was asked the simple question of how her daughter had reacted to MBM going missing (she manages to say that GM seemed devastated, but really struggles to express her daughter's reaction which would suggest that whatever KM did say had shocked her and would shock in general).

Apologies for drifting OT.

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Re: The Priests

Post by Honeyblade on Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:06 am

@joss hi .. I agree with all your points and would only hazard a guess that perhaps the poor priest did hear the confession and passed it on to his superiors but perhaps not straight away or the PTB inside the Vatican were weighing up how to deal with it so everyone came out of it ok
Or let them 'use'the the faith in PR stunts .. Give MSM a positive view of a church which is not smelling of roses by the papal blessing stunt then withdraw quietly and whoosh them from website
@tigger hi your post about virginal ponytails strappy girls tops and ponytail with ribbon in the same sentence gives me shivers down the spine .. Having fostered abused children and knowing what I do it rings awful warning bells imo .
@miss beetle I love listening to history especially the reformation so I nag all these details out of the poor boy!
We are on the subject of I Ivf at the moment and the remaining unused embryos ...

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Re: The Priests

Post by Honeyblade on Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:19 am

Sorry ETA
I just read post re confession and communion this indeed is valid .. Perhaps it was a refusal to confess that worried the priest
Clearly the bishop would be angry regarding the keys for obvious reasons
I don't know about Catholic Churches but my son has had keys to all areas of his church since 18yrs old and he signed various bits of paper one is that the keys are insight all the time
His church is very low and there's nothing worth pinching but still very strict for insurance purposes .. A Catholic Church would imo be stricter still .

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Re: The Priests

Post by tigger on Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:24 am

@tinkier wrote:
@lj wrote:
@tigger wrote:It's not just that the Hubbards arrived so very serendipitously (Hmm is this a word?)  it's the 'Father' Hubbard so eminently suitable to further expecially Kate's journey to sainthood.  He even said that 'when he came into the presence of the McCanns..etc. (from the radio interview) he was totally convinced of their innocence or whatever.

Moreover, the frequent publication of Kate being blessed by the Rev. Hubbard. Kate with her ponytail and little girl tops, Hubbard in virginal white, all surrounded by light doesn't ring true to me.
Yeah, PR in the most disgusting form.
Devine intervention?………The Hubbards now believe Madeleine's disappearance is the reason they were "called" to Portugal. Susan Hubbard remembers the moment it hit her. 'It wasn't until months after when I saw what really brought us here that I was awestruck that he confirmed we were to be here before we even set foot in "our" town of Praia de Luz, she says "for me, he confirmed it on the plane, the fact that there was a child missing here gave us out first mission before we set foot in the place".
http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2008/05/02/profile-susan-hubbard/
Gosh! I'd forgotten that!  It's way better than being blessed by the Pope, the Almighty himself took charge!  splat

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Re: The Priests

Post by Honeyblade on Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:27 am

Lol.. Let's hope he's preparing charges now !!

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Re: The Priests

Post by Richard IV on Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:00 am

From the Hernani Carvalho article "On the night of their daughter's disappearance, the McCann couple asked for a priest. The priest of the Luz church, José Pacheco, did not respond. The couple knew, even before they had gone to Praia da Luz, that the Anglican priest Haynes Hubbard celebrated masses there and lived with his wife."


That can`t be right surely as the Hubbards state they didn`t arrive in PdL until after Maddie disappeared.

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Re: The Priests

Post by Richard IV on Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:17 am

[size=28]    [/size]
[size=28]    Susan Hubbard[/size]
My family and I moved to Kingston (from Portugal) in order that I might begin working with the Community Midwives of Kingston. It was difficult for our family (3kids, a husband and a cat) to leave our life of sunshine and a house by the sea and we knew that we would have to find somewhere really wonderful to compensate for all that we were leaving behind.  I had heard great things about the Kingston midwives and the work they had done to firmly establish midwifery in their community. I was thrilled when I was offered a position with this practice.
I remain very excited about this opportunity to be a midwife in Kingston. I have met many wonderful women and had the privilege of walking with them and their families through pregnancy and birth. It is the first time I have had privileges at a teaching hospital and I continue to find it an interesting and vibrant atmosphere where staff and students are constantly learning together.  I have had the privilege of being at home with women as they birth and I find it a great honour to be welcomed in and allowed to help that family grow within the warmth and security of their own home.
For me midwifery is a vocation and I feel incredibly blessed with each opportunity I have to care for women and their families as they go through the life changing experience of birth.
https://www.kingstonmidwives.ca/midwifery-care/your-midwives

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Re: The Priests

Post by tinkier on Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:01 pm

@Richard IV wrote:From the Hernani Carvalho article "On the night of their daughter's disappearance, the McCann couple asked for a priest. The priest of the Luz church, José Pacheco, did not respond. The couple knew, even before they had gone to Praia da Luz, that the Anglican priest Haynes Hubbard celebrated masses there and lived with his wife."


That can`t be right surely as the Hubbards state they didn`t arrive in PdL until after Maddie disappeared.
@RichardIV ….That was also the point I was trying to make. high5

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Re: The Priests

Post by ryanm on Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:10 pm

@Joss wrote:
@aquila wrote:Does anyone think that there was a confession made to any priest in PDL, let alone anywhere else? I know I don't.

The whole religious angle was an exploitative PR exercise imo.
Probably not, but why was Father Pacheco upset enough with the McCann's to feel he was deceived by them?

IMO he was taken aback with the intense media interest which brought accusations against him to the public eye.

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Re: The Priests

Post by tigger on Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:57 pm

@tinkier wrote:
@Richard IV wrote:From the Hernani Carvalho article "On the night of their daughter's disappearance, the McCann couple asked for a priest. The priest of the Luz church, José Pacheco, did not respond. The couple knew, even before they had gone to Praia da Luz, that the Anglican priest Haynes Hubbard celebrated masses there and lived with his wife."


That can`t be right surely as the Hubbards state they didn`t arrive in PdL until after Maddie disappeared.
@RichardIV ….That was also the point I was trying to make. high5
Father Pacheco did no respond. No, he was asleep I expect and may not even have had a phone call from the GNR or OC in any case. The request came around 3.00 am I believe and how  Kate would have found time to fit in a priest during all the telephoning she did in the early hours.

0.40.50 am voicemail calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS0.45.49 am Kate calls voicemail (31 seconds)
0.47.23 am … calls Kate (2.39 minutes)
0.53.08 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
1.02.08 am … calls Kate (2.23 minutes (MO after speaking to JW)
1.30 that morning Kate called Father P. S. in a state of great agitation. 
2.07.03 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
2.18.29 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
2.20.03 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS
2.21.12 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS
2.23.27 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
2.27.28 am Kate calls … (27 seconds)
2.38.58 am Lynda and Mark call Kate (9.45 minutes)
2.53.49 am Kate calls Michelle and Jon (16 seconds)
3.05.03 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
3.06.17 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS
3.06.54 am Kate calls Michelle and Jon (5 seconds)
3.07.38 am Kate calls Jon Corner (3 seconds)
3.07.57 am Kate calls Michelle’s cellphone (3 seconds)
3.08.33 am Kate calls Michelle and Jon (3 seconds
3.09.05 am Kate calls Michelle and Jon (4 seconds)
3.10.29 am Kate calls … (10 seconds)
3.20.21 am Kate calls Michelle and Jon (14 seconds)
3.23.28 am Jon Corner calls Kate (184 seconds)
3.28.46 am Jon Corner calls Kate (416 seconds)
3.31.13 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
3.55.21 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
3.55.56 am Kate calls Jon Corner (0 seconds) SMS
4.03.44 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
4.05.40 am Kate calls Jon Corner (0 seconds) SMS
4.12.33 am Kate calls Jon Corner (0 seconds) SMS
4.22.12 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
4.31.30 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
4.31.41 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
4.36.30 am … calls Kate (17.27 minutes)
4.52.16 am Kate calls Jon Corner (0 seconds) SMS
4.55.54 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS

6.02.08 am Mum mob calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
6.04.11 am Kate calls Mum mob (0 seconds) SMS
6.05.29 am Kate calls Amanda home (7.02 minutes)
6.08.17 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS


Between 4 and 5  am they rested, I can't see how Kate could have fitted a priest into this busy schedule. Between 7 and 8 am they searched... 
so was this request for a priest just a formality? To establish the party line as it were?  One newspaper headline ran that Kate was persecuted for her religious beliefs - she wanted a sort of chain-letter effect of the whole world praying for Madeleine. I'll see if I can find it, once a martyr can sainthood be far behind?

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Re: The Priests

Post by aquila on Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:31 pm

How many English speaking Anglican priests were there at the Catholic church in PDL in all the years prior to the arrival of Hubbard?

How long was their tenure?

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Re: The Priests

Post by aquila on Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:09 pm

I'm digressing from the current topic.

When I was in my early teens I joined the debating group at school. I was completely hopeless. I was a fully committed Christian and attended the Christian Union in the school lunch hour. This was a non-denominational and very lovely place of worship. No-one was forced to go. In fact I was the only person in my peer group who attended. Half an hour of sheer spiritual comfort.

In the debating team within a classroom environment there was a lad I will never forget. He was the son of an Anglican cleric. I asked why clerics wore robes that separated them from the rest of humanity. He gave his honest answer that it was to separate the cleric from everyday life and to give no boundary to those who seek comfort in religion. I asked him if Jesus did that. I also asked him if Jesus would have wanted a load of people in strange attire and sitting in churches with gold and silver aplenty to spread His word.

I lost the debate (I can't ever remember winning one).

I just asked the bleeding obvious as a child and there's still no answer.

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Re: The Priests

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:24 pm

The colourful robes that Catholic priests wear, called vestments, were originally ordinary garments from the ancient Romans.

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Re: The Priests

Post by aquila on Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:47 pm

Ladyinred wrote:The colourful robes that Catholic priests wear, called vestments, were originally ordinary garments from the ancient Romans.
Still being worn today. All those colourful robes with differing sashes which no ordinary person understands, all those traditions of kissing the hand/ring of a priest/Pope (depending on which country you reside). All this absolute nonsense. No wonder there was a big PR opportunity claimed by both Catholic and Anglican churches in the case of Madeleine McCann, and boy didn't the PR machine milk it for all its worth.

A person in desperate need of spiritual/religious comfort doesn't need a media machine. It is usually a quiet thing done in privacy. It is a place to be on one's knees begging for help from a higher power, not a place to fanfare. If you take the case of April Jones, the local church was open and the vicar was asked for comment by the media. She did this with amazing aplomb. The local church was open and gave a place for people involved in the search, those who were affected within the community and those who were just so bloody tired they had somewhere to go sit and either pray or just simply sit in quiet contemplation, to have a cup of tea, talk to people, rest their weary bones/aching hearts.

The big PR exercise with the Pope and Madeleine's parents is beyond credibility.

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The priests

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:57 pm

Practising Catholics understand the different colours.  I think the robes and rituals are meaningful if you are a believer (probably applies in most religions) and also have a symbolic importance.

Agree about the opportunist Mcs.  All that claimed praying by K, hilarious.

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Re: The Priests

Post by Honeyblade on Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:42 pm

@ Aquila I can find out .. May take a day or two but the diocese would have info to hand and if it's not illegal my son will look ...he is in training and works with diocese synod and is PCC secretary so can access info .. All that at 22 yrs old ! I was still in fairyland then!

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Re: The Priests

Post by aquila on Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:51 pm

@Honeyblade wrote:@ Aquila I can find out .. May take a day or two but  the diocese would have info to hand and if it's not illegal my son will look ...he is in training and works with diocese synod and is PCC secretary so can access info .. All that at 22 yrs old ! I was still in fairyland then!
friends

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Re: The Priests

Post by lj on Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:04 pm

@aquila wrote:
Ladyinred wrote:The colourful robes that Catholic priests wear, called vestments, were originally ordinary garments from the ancient Romans.
Still being worn today. All those colourful robes with differing sashes which no ordinary person understands, all those traditions of kissing the hand/ring of a priest/Pope (depending on which country you reside). All this absolute nonsense. No wonder there was a big PR opportunity claimed by both Catholic and Anglican churches in the case of Madeleine McCann, and boy didn't the PR machine milk it for all its worth.

A person in desperate need of spiritual/religious comfort doesn't need a media machine. It is usually a quiet thing done in privacy. It is a place to be on one's knees begging for help from a higher power, not a place to fanfare. If you take the case of April Jones, the local church was open and the vicar was asked for comment by the media. She did this with amazing aplomb. The local church was open and gave a place for people involved in the search, those who were affected within the community and those who were just so bloody tired they had somewhere to go sit and either pray or just simply sit in quiet contemplation, to have a cup of tea, talk to people, rest their weary bones/aching hearts.

The big PR exercise with the Pope and Madeleine's parents is beyond credibility.

Great post Aquila. 

The big PR exercise is not only beyond credibility, but also rather tasteless. 

But it was all it was: a PR exercise to make the parents look like innocent victims. That and hordes of opportunists who saw their chance of fame/money or both.

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http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

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The Priests

Post by tinkier on Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:26 am

Submitted by: Diocese on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 12:41:42 (GMT)
Thanks to [color:0e2e=000000]Astro for translation

A little more information re Father José Manuel Pacheco…notice the part in bold at the end. I think the dear Father knew exactly what these two were up to, using him and the church as a shield.

The family of the 4-year-old English child, Madeleine McCann, who has disappeared from a holiday resort in Praia da Luz, near Lagos, on the 3rd of May, and whose police searches are ongoing, has been feeling the support of the local parish.
 
Father José Manuel Pacheco, a member of the priest community of the Congregation of the Holy Redeemer, who is responsible for the pastoral work in that parochial community of Luz of Lagos, explains that little Maddie's parents requested his presence "since the first hour".
 
The priest informally visited the family last Saturday at around 7 p.m., and presided over a small prayer in their house, a house that was different from the one at Mark Warner Ocean Summer Club, the resort where the child disappeared.
 
"The parish continues, not only through myself but also through other people, to give the family much support," father José Manuel Pacheco mentions, asserting that "initiatives of prayers for Madeleine were an initiative from the parochial community."
 
"When I visited Gerald McCann and Kate Healy on Saturday, we agreed to pray a rosary on Sunday afternoon at their house, which ended up taking place with a significant presence of Portuguese and English people (approximately 30 persons), and it revealed itself as a very strong moment. The family was confident, and interiorised and lived that moment deeply," he mentions, adding that he tried "to comfort them, to encourage them and to support them spiritually". "I further informed them that the parish would pray for their daughter during Sunday Mass and they manifested their will to participate," the priest clarifies.
 
Sunday Mass, which usually is already composed by the liturgy of the Word in Portuguese and in English, "was prepared with more care and time, taking into account the situation that the family is going through," father José Manuel Pacheco justifies.
 
On Sunday, at around 9.30 a.m., the McCann family walked to the parochial church in order to, together with the other worshippers, participate in the Eucharistic celebration which also included the intention of little Maddie. During the Mass, the head of the celebration also tried to motivate the entire Christian community (including the foreigners that attended in greater numbers than usual) to prayers around the child that disappeared from the bedroom where she slept with her two siblings.
 
Father José Manuel Pacheco further stresses the "confident and serene" participation of Kate Healy, despite the painful situation.

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Re: The Priests

Post by Honeyblade on Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:34 am

So the partook of holy communion aswell ..I'm speechless....smh

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Re: The Priests

Post by lj on Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:41 pm

I might be reading it wrong, but I don't see where it says they took the holy communion.

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http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/

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Re: The Priests

Post by Honeyblade on Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:03 pm

Participated in the Eucharist ?
Is that not receiving communion .. Sorry if I made mistake in CofE Eucharist is the sacrament ..
Apologies for mistake ...

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Re: The Priests

Post by comperedna on Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:43 pm

I don't think you did make a mistake Honeyblade. I too believe they are the same thing whether C of E or Catholicism.

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Re: The Priests

Post by tinkier on Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:29 pm

The Eucharist, which is also called the Holy Communion, Mass, the Lord's Supper or the Divine Liturgy, is a sacrament accepted by almost all Christians.

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Re: The Priests

Post by aquila on Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:36 pm

@tinkier wrote:The Eucharist, which is also called the Holy Communion, Mass, the Lord's Supper or the Divine Liturgy, is a sacrament accepted by almost all Christians.
It's normal for a Eucharist service to invite people who are not of a particular denomination to come forward if they want to receive a blessing. Depending on which church you attend, you can make your way forward with those who are partaking in Holy Communion by folding your arms with your hands crossed shoulder to shoulder to indicate you are not confirmed. The priest then knows to bless you. I believe there is a photograph of Haynes-Hubbard blessing KM in this way.

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