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Jon Venables back in prison

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by twinkle on 07.03.10 18:56

But if his identity is revealed chances are if he will not get any conviction as there would be no chance of a fair trial.
I would much rather his identity and his current crime remain a secret in order for him to stand trial, if there is evidence then he will be convicted.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by vaguely1 on 07.03.10 18:59

I would too Twinkle.

For some reason the papers don't seem to comprehend this and are after the quick fix option of getting all his details out there.

It also seems that he himself has been revealing his identity - maybe he's on self destruct, or maybe he's cunning enough to know he won't be able to face trial.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by twinkle on 07.03.10 19:27

@vaguely1 wrote:I would too Twinkle.

For some reason the papers don't seem to comprehend this and are after the quick fix option of getting all his details out there.

It also seems that he himself has been revealing his identity - maybe he's on self destruct, or maybe he's cunning enough to know he won't be able to face trial.

Didn't think of that, or has he been advised on that.
If he stood trial and spent some time in prison would he go back to his old life on release, and would he still be protected.
Would it be right for the taxpayer to fund another relocation given that he has broken his license by commiting other crimes.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Otium on 07.03.10 21:04

@justagrannynow 1 wrote:Hi Otium, the way things stand at the moment, nobody knows the identity of Jon Venables and that is as it should be, but there is widespread interest in who he is and what he has done, fuelled by the media speculation. If he is charged and goes to court under his present identity, there is no way the public are able to know which of all the cases of a similar nature throughout the country is the real Jon Venables. With feelings running as high as they are about this, and the public wanting to find out who he is now, I think there is a danger of some hotheads picking the wrong man out and endangering either the man if he is given bail, or his relatives by attacking them.
Jon Venables is now an adult and should not continue to have his identity protected to the point where yet more people have to suffer for what he has done.

Sorry I am not explaining this very well, but I hope you can understand what I am getting at.

Hi JAGN,

I do understand where you are coming from but I think that the courts and media have a role to play in all of this to try and ensure it doesn't come to that.

But the media are behaving like a dog with a bone at the moment with reporting in a style that is a hair's breadth away from breaking the law. It doesn't serve any purpose IMO other than to whip already unhinged people into a frenzy which will ultimately end in tears from all sides.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Pascal on 07.03.10 21:16

@Otium wrote:It goes without saying that what Thompson and Venables did was abhorrent but I remember thinking at the time that they were only children themselves. I wondered what on earth had happened in their short lives that lead them to commit such evil and it may not be a popular view, but I did feel some pity for them.

I was under what can only be described as a romantic notion that they would be rehabilitated, understand and feel eternal remorse for what they had done and go on to be in some shape or form, useful human beings.

Now, it appears, in the case of Venables at least, that this is far from reality and I truly despair.

For a start, I don't think 8 years was long enough for what they did and I believe also that they should have served some time in adult prison if only to prepare them for the harsh reality of others and the outside world as opposed to the insulated and protected existance they had in the child offenders unit.

Any pity I felt has now been erradicated and I hope they throw the book at him and then some.

However, I genuniely do not understand what purpose it would serve for him to appear in court under his real name?

Excellent post Otium.

i would like to add that they committed an adult crime and some time in an adult prison may have better prepared them for the outside world. As it stands, they have both been given a chance to recoup some of their lost childhood and a clean slate with which to make a life for themselves.

My worry is, how does one recover from committing such a heinous crime without adopting some sociopathic tendancies? A sociopath has no conscience. Surely to continue a normal existence, it would be necessary to erase what they did from their memory. So where does remorse come into it? Are they encouraged to feel remorse then wipe it all away like it never existed?

Someone in an earlier post said that there was no indication of mental problems in these two. I don't believe that for one minute. Venables, it is said was the first to show any form of remorse. Could it be that he is incapable of erasing the memories. Maybe he feels that he has not been punished enough for his crimes.

I'm struggling with this.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by vaguely1 on 07.03.10 21:20

He does sound as though he's on self destruct Pascal.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by twinkle on 07.03.10 22:21

@Pascal wrote:
@Otium wrote:It goes without saying that what Thompson and Venables did was abhorrent but I remember thinking at the time that they were only children themselves. I wondered what on earth had happened in their short lives that lead them to commit such evil and it may not be a popular view, but I did feel some pity for them.

I was under what can only be described as a romantic notion that they would be rehabilitated, understand and feel eternal remorse for what they had done and go on to be in some shape or form, useful human beings.

Now, it appears, in the case of Venables at least, that this is far from reality and I truly despair.

For a start, I don't think 8 years was long enough for what they did and I believe also that they should have served some time in adult prison if only to prepare them for the harsh reality of others and the outside world as opposed to the insulated and protected existance they had in the child offenders unit.

Any pity I felt has now been erradicated and I hope they throw the book at him and then some.

However, I genuniely do not understand what purpose it would serve for him to appear in court under his real name?

Excellent post Otium.

i would like to add that they committed an adult crime and some time in an adult prison may have better prepared them for the outside world. As it stands, they have both been given a chance to recoup some of their lost childhood and a clean slate with which to make a life for themselves.

My worry is, how does one recover from committing such a heinous crime without adopting some sociopathic tendancies? A sociopath has no conscience. Surely to continue a normal existence, it would be necessary to erase what they did from their memory. So where does remorse come into it? Are they encouraged to feel remorse then wipe it all away like it never existed?

Someone in an earlier post said that there was no indication of mental problems in these two. I don't believe that for one minute. Venables, it is said was the first to show any form of remorse. Could it be that he is incapable of erasing the memories. Maybe he feels that he has not been punished enough for his crimes.


I'm struggling with this.

Highlighting this because it is a very good point. I doubt either boys will have been able to erase any of it.
So you are left with guilt, do you use this to motivate you to create a good life..........do selfless acts, devote your life to doing good things for others........do you try to to create a normal life, or do you wallow in self loathing.
How do you ever make that step to normality after that?

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Pascal on 07.03.10 22:43

@ V. See, at the time, feelings were running high, particularly in Liverpool. It was only a decade earlier that there was rioting in the streets. The government were only too well aware of what could quite easily happen again - which is why I think Michael Howard tried to intervene to increase the sentence. Also the trial in an adult court was, I believe a sop to keep the public happy.

I think the mistakes made in this case are a result of knee jerk reactions. Had the boys been tried properly there may well have been some consideration given to the extent of the crime committed. There clearly has not. But then most of the country where in a state of shock.

@ Twinks. It depends on the crime surely. Had they pushed James into an oncoming car, or into the Leeds-Liverpool Canal, it would have been horrible enough. But they tortured then killed him, then attempted to hide what they did by leaving him on the train tracks. How on earth does one eradicate that from the memory? Yet in order to live a normal life, they would have to. Venables, it seems has not.

I wonder how Thompson has learned to quantify his past.

I just don't see where rehabilitation begins or ends in just eight years on this case.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Otium on 07.03.10 23:13

@Pascal wrote:
@Otium wrote:It goes without saying that what Thompson and Venables did was abhorrent but I remember thinking at the time that they were only children themselves. I wondered what on earth had happened in their short lives that lead them to commit such evil and it may not be a popular view, but I did feel some pity for them.

I was under what can only be described as a romantic notion that they would be rehabilitated, understand and feel eternal remorse for what they had done and go on to be in some shape or form, useful human beings.

Now, it appears, in the case of Venables at least, that this is far from reality and I truly despair.

For a start, I don't think 8 years was long enough for what they did and I believe also that they should have served some time in adult prison if only to prepare them for the harsh reality of others and the outside world as opposed to the insulated and protected existance they had in the child offenders unit.

Any pity I felt has now been erradicated and I hope they throw the book at him and then some.

However, I genuniely do not understand what purpose it would serve for him to appear in court under his real name?

Excellent post Otium.

i would like to add that they committed an adult crime and some time in an adult prison may have better prepared them for the outside world. As it stands, they have both been given a chance to recoup some of their lost childhood and a clean slate with which to make a life for themselves.

My worry is, how does one recover from committing such a heinous crime without adopting some sociopathic tendancies? A sociopath has no conscience. Surely to continue a normal existence, it would be necessary to erase what they did from their memory. So where does remorse come into it? Are they encouraged to feel remorse then wipe it all away like it never existed?

Someone in an earlier post said that there was no indication of mental problems in these two. I don't believe that for one minute. Venables, it is said was the first to show any form of remorse. Could it be that he is incapable of erasing the memories. Maybe he feels that he has not been punished enough for his crimes.

I'm struggling with this.

Thank you Pascal flower

You raise some very good points as anyone with a modicum of humanity would surely struggle to erase such horrific memories. Memories that surely will be forever etched in his mind and if we are to believe his reported behaviour over the last few years, it would certainly seem that he is struggling to come to terms with what he has done.

It has also been reported that he has been telling people his real identity, which like Vaguely1 has said, seems like self destruct. It also fits in with what you have said with regard to him not feeling that he has been punished enough.

If his alleged offence surrounding child pornography is true, I am left to wonder, bearing what has been said in mind, did he deliberately choose the type of offence that was beyond redemption to put the final nail in his coffin so to speak?

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Pascal on 07.03.10 23:19

@Otium wrote:
@Pascal wrote:
@Otium wrote:It goes without saying that what Thompson and Venables did was abhorrent but I remember thinking at the time that they were only children themselves. I wondered what on earth had happened in their short lives that lead them to commit such evil and it may not be a popular view, but I did feel some pity for them.

I was under what can only be described as a romantic notion that they would be rehabilitated, understand and feel eternal remorse for what they had done and go on to be in some shape or form, useful human beings.

Now, it appears, in the case of Venables at least, that this is far from reality and I truly despair.

For a start, I don't think 8 years was long enough for what they did and I believe also that they should have served some time in adult prison if only to prepare them for the harsh reality of others and the outside world as opposed to the insulated and protected existance they had in the child offenders unit.

Any pity I felt has now been erradicated and I hope they throw the book at him and then some.

However, I genuniely do not understand what purpose it would serve for him to appear in court under his real name?

Excellent post Otium.

i would like to add that they committed an adult crime and some time in an adult prison may have better prepared them for the outside world. As it stands, they have both been given a chance to recoup some of their lost childhood and a clean slate with which to make a life for themselves.

My worry is, how does one recover from committing such a heinous crime without adopting some sociopathic tendancies? A sociopath has no conscience. Surely to continue a normal existence, it would be necessary to erase what they did from their memory. So where does remorse come into it? Are they encouraged to feel remorse then wipe it all away like it never existed?

Someone in an earlier post said that there was no indication of mental problems in these two. I don't believe that for one minute. Venables, it is said was the first to show any form of remorse. Could it be that he is incapable of erasing the memories. Maybe he feels that he has not been punished enough for his crimes.

I'm struggling with this.

Thank you Pascal flower

You raise some very good points as anyone with a modicum of humanity would surely struggle to erase such horrific memories. Memories that surely will be forever etched in his mind and if we are to believe his reported behaviour over the last few years, it would certainly seem that he is struggling to come to terms with what he has done.

It has also been reported that he has been telling people his real identity, which like Vaguely1 has said, seems like self destruct. It also fits in with what you have said with regard to him not feeling that he has been punished enough.

If his alleged offence surrounding child pornography is true, I am left to wonder, bearing what has been said in mind, did he deliberately choose the type of offence that was beyond redemption to put the final nail in his coffin so to speak?


Yes. I thought that too.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by justagrannynow 1 on 10.03.10 16:15

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Reveal-Jon-Venables-Identity-Says-Man-After-He-Is-Wrongly-Accused-Of-Being-James-Bulgers-Killer/Article/201003215570832?lpos=UK_News_First_UK_News_Article_Teaser_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15570832_Reveal_Jon_Venables_Identity_Says_Man_After_He_Is_Wrongly_Accused_Of_Being_James_Bulgers_Killer_


Mistaken Dad: 'Reveal Venables' Identity'

2:25pm UK, Wednesday March 10, 2010

Hannah Thomas-Peter, Sky News Online
A man has pleaded for the Justice Secretary to reveal Jon Venables' identity after he was wrongly accused of being the James Bulger killer.

David Calvert, 27, has told Sky News he is living in "terror" after a Facebook and text message campaign claimed he was Venables living under a new identity.

Speaking about the Government's refusal to reveal who the toddler's killers are he said: "They say it's for their human rights and it shouldn't be. They've got to think of other people's human rights.

Mr Calvert said the Justice Secretary must publically state he is not Jon Venables, adding "because until something like that happens I'm going to keep getting this.

"Until their names are mentioned and its proven who they are ... I'm going to get shunted and shouted at and everything for the rest of my life until this is sorted.

"I was proud of my name but now because of people who've destroyed it, it's not even worth the paper it's written on."

The father of four said the false accusations are affecting his children, with one of his sons asking "why are all these bad people saying bad things Dad?"

The Facebook page was set up shortly after it was revealed Venables has been recalled to prison. By the time it was taken down it had attracted thousands of users.

Mr Calvert had to cope with similar allegations in 2005 when he lived in Fleetwood, Lancashire.

After telling a neighbour that he had served a sentence in a Liverpool prison, rumours began to circulate about his identity.

Speaking at the time, Mr Calvert said: "People have been turning up at my neighbours' houses with pictures of the killers printed off the internet and saying one of them is me.

"Now I hear that threats are being made and I'm worried that someone will come for me or my girlfriend or hurt my kids.

"I'm too scared to go out of the house now. I have these people saying they will get me out 'no matter what' and I'm terrified at what they might do."

A Ministry of Justice spokesperson said that Justice Secretary Jack Straw would not be responding specifically to Mr Calvert's request, but said: "We can confirm that Jon Venables has been recalled to custody."

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Tony Bennett on 10.03.10 16:32

Darren Nicholls, who admitted to having driven the killers of the 'Rettendon Three' (Tucker, Tate and Rolfe - notorious Essex drug dealers) to near the scene of crime, was offered and accepted a new identity for turning Queen's Evidence against Jack Whomes and Micky Steele (also drug dealers). Whomes and Steele claim they were 'fitted up' and have appealed against conviction twice, so far unsuccessfully.

Damon Alvin (another notorious drug-dealer) appears to have been involved in the killing of Dean Boshell, a minor drug-dealer and police informer) on a Leigh-on-Sea, Essex, allotment, but was also given a brand new identity after turning Queen's Evidence against his partner-in-crime Ricky Percival, now serving a long jail-term for the murder.

Expect both cases to surface in the next few months, admidst rumours of dark dealings by senior Essex Police Officers.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Tony Bennett on 10.03.10 17:49

This link is a useful reminder of how TV, films and videos can harm vulnerable and impressionable minds, young and old:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1256190/Revealed-The-horror-drawing-Jon-Venables-weeks-killed-James-Bulger.html

Many murders have been committed in the aftermath of watching a violent film.

The film censors should take that into account.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by vaguely1 on 10.03.10 18:02

do you mean the classification board?

In UK this had an 18 certificate.

Parental issues rather than BBFC issues.

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18+

Post by Tony Bennett on 10.03.10 18:15

@vaguely1 wrote:do you mean the classification board?

In UK this had an 18 certificate.

Parental issues rather than BBFC issues.
How many 18+ films get screened on our TVs?

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by vaguely1 on 10.03.10 18:23

None before the watershed.

On non-terrestrial TV you set a parental PIN for films of certain certificates ...12 or above I believe.

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It's all entertainment

Post by Tony Bennett on 10.03.10 18:30

@vaguely1 wrote:None before the watershed.

On non-terrestrial TV you set a parental PIN for films of certain certificates ...12 or above I believe.
What exactly is the point of a violent film like 'Halloween'?

Ah yes, entertainment.

As in...

...watching cage fighting

...badger-baiting

...cock-fighting

...bull-fighting

...child pornography

...watching Christians being eaten alive by lions...

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by vaguely1 on 10.03.10 18:32

what a bizarre and over the top post.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by vaguely1 on 10.03.10 18:34

However, the film contains little graphic violence and gore.[3][4] In 2006, it was selected for preservation in the United States National Film Registry by the Library of Congress as being "culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant".


Not sure they've got a back catalogue of child torture or cock fighting.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Kololi on 10.03.10 20:10

Hi
I remember going to watch the Exorcist and bursting out laughing when her head spun round and pea green soup spewed from her mouth. The only scary moment in that film was when the mother was walking along the upsatairs hallway and a sudden noise occured or something similar, so an unexpected and jumpy moment rather than a scary moment really.

I remember people were affected seriously by this film at the time and I could not for the life of me understand why. Exorcist proved a walk in the park and felt like a waste of money as it hadn't manage to scare the pants off me in the slightest while Soldier Blue whalloped my emotions and made me feel angry and physically sick during parts of it which I guess was part of the purpose of that film.

I suppose different films upset or affect different mindsets.

And Legolas sliding down the trunk of the elephant and firing his arrows had me swooning like a love sick teenager - money well spent I must say.
big grin

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by vaguely1 on 10.03.10 20:18

Kololi,

Would you have considered your trip to the cinema to be in any way similar to these activities?


...watching cage fighting

...badger-baiting

...cock-fighting

...bull-fighting

...child pornography

...watching Christians being eaten alive by lions...

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Kololi on 10.03.10 20:34

Hmmmm Vaguely you know the penny doesn't always drop as fast for me as others but I will try my best to answer.

Only from the point of view that I might see some of the listed things in a film.

I wouldn't get excited by badger baiting in particular and a lot of the other things listed in the same way that I got quietly excited and swooney over Orlando Bloom with pointy ears.

I wouldn't choose to do any of those things like I would choose to go to the cinema.

I would tell on my neighbour if I thought they were doing any of those things in their garden or house whereas I wouldn't tell on them if they were going to the cinema.

Ok after thinking and giving my reasons why, I do not think going to the cinema is remotely comparable to those things on the list especially the badger baiting, bull fighting and cockfighting.

Now I have shown that my priorities are all wrong and disagreed with Tony do I get to stand in the naughty corner for a while again????

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Sensible controls

Post by Tony Bennett on 10.03.10 20:42

@Kololi wrote:I suppose different films upset or affect different mindsets.
Yes, that's the point.

Just as, say, alcohol affects people differently. Some have it now and then to aid social conversation and relax. Others become alcoholic.

We need to have sensible controls on things that may harm people, whether violent films or alcohol.

At the moment, we haven't.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Tony Bennett on 10.03.10 20:50

@vaguely1 wrote:Kololi,

Would you have considered your trip to the cinema to be in any way similar to these activities?


...watching cage fighting

...badger-baiting

...cock-fighting

...bull-fighting

...child pornography

...watching Christians being eaten alive by lions...
Once again, I repeat the point that all these are considered forms of entertainment by those who participate in them.

Going to watch Chitty Chitty Bang Bang or The Sound of Music, listening to Beethoven's ninth or the MacCalmans, watching Yorkshire play cricket or Hartlepool play football, a darts match or a snooker match etc. - they're all considered forms of entertainment.

The activities involved above all involve the active enjoyment of watching humans or animals suffer.

I may be wrong about badger-baiting, though, except it doesn't sound very nice. Maybe Ron Davies, the Labour MP who was caught 'badger-hunting' (cough) on the hills around Bath and on Clapham Common, would be able to help us on that one.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Kololi on 10.03.10 20:51

You didn't send me to the naughty corner??? My things are looking up Wink

I wouldn't agree that you have sensible controls on the things in the lists though in the same way that say alcohol intake when driving is limited Mr Bennett.

You do not do badger baiting or cockfighting or child pornography full stop, surely?

There should be no acceptable half way with bull fighting as a bull gets harmed for mans' amusement and that's plain wrong.

Would we feel a sensible control of say 10 christians being fed alive to lions is acceptable on a once weekly basis or should it only 5 a week?

I just have a horrible feeling I am not grasping this but that's how your post has just read to me so apologies if I am having a brunnette moment.

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