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Jon Venables back in prison

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by vaguely1 on 03.03.10 14:19

My question was a genuine one. Do they as a rule inform the families of victims when the terms of licence are broken?

It wasn't meant to start off some sort of emotional distress in other posters.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by hedge on 03.03.10 14:23

@vaguely1 wrote:My question was a genuine one. Do they as a rule inform the families of victims when the terms of licence are broken?

It wasn't meant to start off some sort of emotional distress in other posters.

I don't know but I sense not, if people are released from prison without families of and victims themselves being informed then I can't see why they would if they were brought back in on a breach. Possibly in the case of a murder the police might take it upon themselves to do it informally if they felt it right?

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by vaguely1 on 03.03.10 14:25

thank you, that's what I was thinking. x

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by twinkle on 03.03.10 14:26

No Vaguely I would imagine they would have no more information than we do, which is zero.
The reason he is back behind bars could be because of any number of things.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by jmbd on 03.03.10 14:29

He was released with a new identity - why is it even being reported?

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by vaguely1 on 03.03.10 14:33

@jmbd Because it makes people angry and the papers enjoy doing that. (would be my cynical guess)

@ Twinkle - thank you.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Pascal on 03.03.10 14:34

@hedge wrote:
@Pascal wrote:
@hedge wrote:
@Pascal wrote:the point being?

The point being that it's very hard to rehabilitate someone who has had such a poor start in life to become a productive thriving member of society, so sadly, statistically there was a high chance of him reoffending/breaching his license agreement.

Which is why he should have been locked up for life. The crime he committed was clearly indicative that he was seriously disturbed. How on earth is it possible to rehabilitate someone capable of such base cruelty? No matter what his age? or 'start in life'?

His 'start in life' may well have contributed. Though thousands of kids have horrendous childhoods, they don't turn into monsters.

He was 10 and he had a horrible start in life, it is possible to rehabiliate people like this and as a society we should try and undo the damge inflicted on him unforgiveably at such a young age he had already been let down enough, no need to keep doing it.

Using your argument there is no need to treat kids like human beings and with respect because apparently if they are treated like shit they might turn out okay. That's not how our society does or should work.

My argument is that two young sexual deviants are unlikely to be ever be successfully rehabilitated. You said yourself that reoffending was 'inevitable' and conveniently blamed it on their 'upbringing'. In turn, your argument trivialises the heinous crime committed to a helpless baby.

How do you KNOW it is possible to 'rehabilitate people like this'? How do you think you KNOW? This case was horrifying beyond words I don't recall another like it. Why should time, money and effort be expended on something which inevitably will revert to type? There has to be another way.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Pascal on 03.03.10 14:38

@vaguely1 wrote:
@Pascal wrote:
@vaguely1 wrote:
@Pascal wrote:I don't want to live in a country where children kidnap and sexually abuse infants then snuff out his little life. There has to be lines drawn somewhere Vaguely. This was no ordinary crime.

The line is drawn by better people than me Pascal.

I trust them to draw that line exactly where they see fit.

You do? Even now? My goodness you do surprise me.

Answer me then;

If Venables, after his 'rehabilitation' came to live in your street, how would you feel? Would you let your children go anywhere near him?

We all live near people who have committed crimes against other people. Why would I be sending my small children out to play with any grown man who lives down my street, let alone one with previous convictions for murder?

We're surrounded by people who have done bad things - we can't keep them all locked up for life.

There's bad and then there is heinous. One cap doesn't fit all. I didn't suggest you send your children out to play with a grown man Vaguely. I think you know that though.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by vaguely1 on 03.03.10 14:42

@Pascal wrote:
@vaguely1 wrote:
@Pascal wrote:
@vaguely1 wrote:
@Pascal wrote:I don't want to live in a country where children kidnap and sexually abuse infants then snuff out his little life. There has to be lines drawn somewhere Vaguely. This was no ordinary crime.

The line is drawn by better people than me Pascal.

I trust them to draw that line exactly where they see fit.

You do? Even now? My goodness you do surprise me.

Answer me then;

If Venables, after his 'rehabilitation' came to live in your street, how would you feel? Would you let your children go anywhere near him?

We all live near people who have committed crimes against other people. Why would I be sending my small children out to play with any grown man who lives down my street, let alone one with previous convictions for murder?

We're surrounded by people who have done bad things - we can't keep them all locked up for life.

There's bad and then there is heinous. One cap doesn't fit all. I didn't suggest you send your children out to play with a grown man Vaguely. I think you know that though.


and I didn't suggest anything other than I wouldn't want to live in a country that locked children up for life.

That isn't my way of downplaying what they did.

x

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Pascal on 03.03.10 14:43

Ok. So do you think there is another way?

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by vaguely1 on 03.03.10 14:46

Well at the moment he broke his licence terms.... he may not have committed a crime.

So I can't really make comment on him in particular.

But on the whole, decent sentences, better policing, better rehabilitation, better education, better social services, better parenting blah, blah, blah.

same old same old I'm afraid.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by hedge on 03.03.10 14:50

@jmbd wrote:He was released with a new identity - why is it even being reported?

News is becoming a very broad term these days.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by hedge on 03.03.10 14:54

@Pascal wrote:
@hedge wrote:
@Pascal wrote:
@hedge wrote:
@Pascal wrote:the point being?

The point being that it's very hard to rehabilitate someone who has had such a poor start in life to become a productive thriving member of society, so sadly, statistically there was a high chance of him reoffending/breaching his license agreement.

Which is why he should have been locked up for life. The crime he committed was clearly indicative that he was seriously disturbed. How on earth is it possible to rehabilitate someone capable of such base cruelty? No matter what his age? or 'start in life'?

His 'start in life' may well have contributed. Though thousands of kids have horrendous childhoods, they don't turn into monsters.

He was 10 and he had a horrible start in life, it is possible to rehabiliate people like this and as a society we should try and undo the damge inflicted on him unforgiveably at such a young age he had already been let down enough, no need to keep doing it.

Using your argument there is no need to treat kids like human beings and with respect because apparently if they are treated like shit they might turn out okay. That's not how our society does or should work.

My argument is that two young sexual deviants are unlikely to be ever be successfully rehabilitated. You said yourself that reoffending was 'inevitable' and conveniently blamed it on their 'upbringing'. In turn, your argument trivialises the heinous crime committed to a helpless baby.

How do you KNOW it is possible to 'rehabilitate people like this'? How do you think you KNOW? This case was horrifying beyond words I don't recall another like it. Why should time, money and effort be expended on something which inevitably will revert to type? There has to be another way.

You quoted my post so you should be able to read what I said, I said it was very hard to rehabiliatate although clearly it's possible, we know it;s possible because there are success stories.

I also didn't blame it on their upbringing in the way you seem to assert but where do 10 year olds learn that it's good to take away a toddler and inflict pain on that child. Unless you think people are born evil and cannot be taught or learn then clearly their dysfunction came from somewhere, neither were developmentally or mentally unwell.

Oh and just a headsup, I never trivialise crime.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by vaguely1 on 03.03.10 14:58

Pascal, there have been similar cases - but part of the horror of the James Bulger case was surely that the offenders were children themselves.

We are used to hearing about grown adults committing crimes like these.....I think for a lot of people their thoughts and feelings about what children are or can be, were challenged by this case. Maybe a lot of the anger towards those boys was added to because if we don't see them as monsters, completely separate from normal society then it destroys our vision of childhood. I think people reacted to them more strongly than they react to adult offenders.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by hedge on 03.03.10 15:02

Read the story of Mary Bell a woman now out on license who was involved, ringleader in the murder of two young boys in the 60's when she was also a child.

She is the most famous success story, managed to remain publically unidentified, despite a few near misses and has brought up a child of her own.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by bunny on 03.03.10 15:42

If I recall correctly didnt both of them view many 18+ movies?. I could be wrong but I think it was the norm that the father of Thompson thought there was nothing wrong with them seeing violence etc. very very inappropriate.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Autumn on 03.03.10 16:28

@vaguely1 wrote:Pascal, there have been similar cases - but part of the horror of the James Bulger case was surely that the offenders were children themselves.

We are used to hearing about grown adults committing crimes like these.....I think for a lot of people their thoughts and feelings about what children are or can be, were challenged by this case. Maybe a lot of the anger towards those boys was added to because if we don't see them as monsters, completely separate from normal society then it destroys our vision of childhood. I think people reacted to them more strongly than they react to adult offenders.

I think one of the shocking aspects of this case was the nature of the violence inflicted upon James - they tortured him for hours before killing him. The boys' families should have also faced prosecution and lengthy jail sentences, imo, as they were indirectly responsible for what their offspring did to James.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by hedge on 03.03.10 16:35

That's a whole new debate in its own right but yes in cases where it is the criminal acts of the children that leads to exposure of parental neglect, I certainly agree that steps need to be taken, the criminal age of responsibility in england is 10 i think and 8 in scotland but no 8 or 10 year olds behaviour exists in isolation.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Pascal on 03.03.10 16:36

You quoted my post so you should be able to read what I said, I said it was very hard to rehabiliatate although clearly it's possible, we know it;s possible because there are success stories.

I also didn't blame it on their upbringing in the way you seem to assert but where do 10 year olds learn that it's good to take away a toddler and inflict pain on that child. Unless you think people are born evil and cannot be taught or learn then clearly their dysfunction came from somewhere, neither were developmentally or mentally unwell.



Perhaps they were just that way inclined and poor James just got in the way. Oh well. Bring on the rehabilitation because based soley on the Mary Bell case, it works.

I think for the sake of my blood pressure I will step away from this thread.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Pascal on 03.03.10 16:37

@Autumn wrote:
@vaguely1 wrote:Pascal, there have been similar cases - but part of the horror of the James Bulger case was surely that the offenders were children themselves.

We are used to hearing about grown adults committing crimes like these.....I think for a lot of people their thoughts and feelings about what children are or can be, were challenged by this case. Maybe a lot of the anger towards those boys was added to because if we don't see them as monsters, completely separate from normal society then it destroys our vision of childhood. I think people reacted to them more strongly than they react to adult offenders.

I think one of the shocking aspects of this case was the nature of the violence inflicted upon James - they tortured him for hours before killing him. The boys' families should have also faced prosecution and lengthy jail sentences, imo, as they were indirectly responsible for what their offspring did to James.

Totally agree.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by hedge on 03.03.10 16:54

@Pascal wrote:
You quoted my post so you should be able to read what I said, I said it was very hard to rehabiliatate although clearly it's possible, we know it;s possible because there are success stories.

I also didn't blame it on their upbringing in the way you seem to assert but where do 10 year olds learn that it's good to take away a toddler and inflict pain on that child. Unless you think people are born evil and cannot be taught or learn then clearly their dysfunction came from somewhere, neither were developmentally or mentally unwell.



Perhaps they were just that way inclined and poor James just got in the way. Oh well. Bring on the rehabilitation because based soley on the Mary Bell case, it works.

I think for the sake of my blood pressure I will step away from this thread.

Well if you feel that you can't stop yourself misrepresenting what people are saying then perhaps it's for the best flower

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by Pascal on 03.03.10 17:22

well I find its generally better to avoid wums too. flower

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by hedge on 03.03.10 17:26

I'm not sure of the relevance to this thread but I can't say I disagree sadly there have been a couple in the last couple of days and rather embarrassingly I responded to both in good faith before the penny dropped. :oops:

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by twinkle on 03.03.10 22:52

Just watched the news tonight, local one to the Northwest.
It said the main three points of the License were,

1. Not trying to contacting Robert Thompson
2. Not trying to contact the Bulger family
3. Not returning to Merseyside

Other about not commiting any crime, or keeping in contact.

Jack Straw commented on this that it would be something quite wrong or inappropiate for him to have ended up back in prison.

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Re: Jon Venables back in prison

Post by vaguely1 on 04.03.10 7:11

They are also commenting that it could prejudice proceedings. Which made it sound as if it was more likely that a crime had been committed.

I think we can rule out point 2).

I also didn't realise that Mrs Bulger had tracked down Robert Thompson some time ago, but felt unable to confront him.

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