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Room With A Tapas View

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Re: Room With A Tapas View

Post by Ribisl on Mon May 21, 2012 5:11 pm

@jd wrote:The mccanns and their friends have been shown that their close watch of their children to be one where none of them were in FACT under the parents protection, they were totally exposed on their own. The mccanns and their friends may have as well gone to the millennium bar, little did being in the Tapas bar have in being able to protect them. Their kids all alone, in the dark, in unlocked apartments on foreign soil open for anyone to go in, the parents could't see, they could't hear, they were oblivious to anything happening in their apartments...they were not in a position in reality to protect them

No matter what anyone says or believes..... the truth is....They are simply all child neglectors
I totally agree with you Spaniel, there were no checks as one adult was supervising all the kids each night. The checks story is totally fabricated. As without the child neglect, there is no window of opportunity for the abduction

So which is your view? Were they left alone in their apartments, or were they all together being looked after by one adult at any time? Just curious.

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Re: Room With A Tapas View

Post by uppatoffee on Mon May 21, 2012 5:21 pm

In order for the abduction theory to "work" there had to appear to be neglect and the children to be left alone. However I cannot believe that this reay happened so I believe that they were all looked after in one apartment.

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Re: Room With A Tapas View

Post by Guest on Mon May 21, 2012 7:17 pm

It seems it was Paulo Rebelos theory as to what may have taken place, after he took over from Goncalo Amaral..................


7 kids were left in McCann flat


POLICE in Portugal piled fresh torment on Madeleine McCann’s parents yesterday by claiming SIX other kids were with her the night she disappeared.

The bizarre theory – that the couple’s friends left their own children in the fateful holiday apartment to go out – emerged as the country’s No2 cop took over the case of the missing four-year-old.


Last night Maddie’s gaunt-looking mum Kate and husband Gerry slammed the latest slur on their version of events as “utter rubbish”.

The two doctors, both 39, insist their two-year-old twins Amelie and Sean were the only other children sleeping in the rented flat when Maddie vanished.

The news comes as friends of Kate have argued today that the fact she refused to leave Portugal, despite pleas from husband Gerry and friends, is further proof she is telling the truth.


Even though she knew public opinion in Portugal was turning against them, Kate felt emotionally attached to the area and wanted to stay.

Friends argue that someone with something to hide would not have behaved in the same way.

But police sources reportedly told Portuguese newspaper 24 Horas they had "significant evidence" that seven of the eight children in the group had been in the McCanns' apartment.

Reports suggest they did not give an explanation as to where the eighth child was.

And the newspaper also claims that Maddie and twins Sean and Amelie were sedated.
This belief is apparently based on the first preliminary results of the tests carried out at a lab in Birmingham.

These results are said to tie in with forensic analysis previously carried out at the National Institute of Legal Medicine in Portugal.

According to a reported police source, there is no proof that the other children claimed to be in the apartment were also sedated.

Yesterday three detectives visited the apartment where Madeleine disappeared to reconstruct what happened.

They were there for five hours. Their new boss Paulo Rebelo, 45, is understood to favour a “rethink” of every aspect of the investigation.

The McCanns’ spokesman Clarence Mitchell scoffed at the cops’ new allegations, saying: “If you put seven children together you are going to have a far harder time getting them to sleep than three.” The latest theory casts doubt not only on what Kate and Gerry have always said but knocks statements by the three couples they holidayed with.


Rebelo ... now heads the case


Pals Jane Tanner, 36, and her partner Dr Russell O’Brien, 36, have two young daughters. Dr Matthew Oldfield, 37, and wife Rachael, 36, also have two children.

Also in the Algarve with the McCanns were David Payne, 41, and his wife Dr Fiona Payne, 34 – who have one child – and Fiona’s mother Diane. Maddie vanished five months ago in the resort of Praia da Luz as her parents and friends dined in a nearby tapas bar. The police theory about other kids being in the flat was leaked by a detective to a Portuguese newspaper.

It emerged as highly respected senior officer Rebelo – second in command at the Policia Judiciaria – took over the inquiry. He replaced disgraced Goncalo Amaral – axed last week for blasting the McCanns and UK detectives. Rebelo, 45, has worked on some of Portugal’s most high profile crimes – although he has no experience of investigating missing children.


His appointment was announced as it was revealed the McCanns have hired their own forensic team. The move follows reports that new DNA evidence links them to their daughter’s disappearance.

Spokesman Mr Mitchell said: “Kate and Gerry hope Mr Rebelo will now work to eliminate them from the inquiry as suspects and will then be in a position to refocus his team into the search for Madeleine.”


But news emerged today that a team of six Portuguese detectives is reportedly investigating the disappearance of Madeleine - down from about 100 inspectors put on the case when she first went missing

Carlos Anjos, president of the Association of Criminal Investigation Staff, told Portugal’s national news agency Lusa that five detectives and a chief inspector made up the team.

He said the drawdown was “normal" in investigations where the missing person was not found in the immediate period after disappearing, Lusa reported.

Yesterday Kate looked pale and thin as she attended a Catholic service for Madeleine near the family’s home in Rothley, Leics.

Mr Mitchell insisted: “Kate may appear frail but inside she is stronger than ever.”


•Gerry and Kate McCann have praised Hollywood star Ben Affleck for his "sensitivity" after he halted the UK screening of his latest film over its similarities to the missing Madeleine case.


Gone Baby Gone - directed by the actor and starring his brother Casey - features a private detective trying to find a missing four-year-old girl.


The thriller has now had its UK premiere postponed.


At the Los Angeles premiere, Affleck said: "It just came down to the fact that there is a family there, and there is a country that has been exposed to the story and seems to have become to a certain degree emotionally sensitive to it."


The McCanns' family spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "We thank him for being thoughtful enough and sensitive enough to Gerry and Kate's position to make such a commercial decision."

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/322443/Maddie-McCann-7-kids-left-in-McCann-flat-bizarre-new-claim.html?print=yes

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Re: Room With A Tapas View

Post by russiandoll on Mon May 21, 2012 8:17 pm

title..........7 kids in one flat.
None identified.
Eighth child not identified.
The press not the police seem to be saying Maddie was one of the 7.
Maybe she was child 8, and was in another flat, alone.

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Re: Room With A Tapas View

Post by jmac on Wed May 23, 2012 9:01 am

There are so many inconsistencies in their statements and everything changes: keys, doors, gemmied shutters. They are prepared to lie about everything.

The one thing, the only thing they have ever been consistent about, is that they left the three children ALONE in the apartment. They absolutely insist on it and checks were every 30 minutes, not 15 minutes.

It must be really important to them that we get that CLEAR.

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Re: Room With A Tapas View

Post by jd on Wed May 23, 2012 9:13 am

Off course, this is the only thing that creates the window of opportunity for an abduction

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Re: Room With A Tapas View

Post by Ribisl on Wed May 23, 2012 9:14 am

@jmac wrote:There are so many inconsistencies in their statements and everything changes: keys, doors, gemmied shutters. They are prepared to lie about everything.

The one thing, the only thing they have ever been consistent about, is that they left the three children ALONE in the apartment. They absolutely insist on it and checks were every 30 minutes, not 15 minutes.

It must be really important to them that we get that CLEAR.
Or simply that's one of few facts and therefore easy to substantiate. The rest - the timeline of who checked on whom at what time is heavily influenced by their concern about being accused of child neglect and possibly by their attempt at corroborating the McCanns' agenda.

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Re: Room With A Tapas View

Post by jmac on Wed May 23, 2012 9:28 am

@Ribisl wrote:
@jmac wrote:There are so many inconsistencies in their statements and everything changes: keys, doors, gemmied shutters. They are prepared to lie about everything.

The one thing, the only thing they have ever been consistent about, is that they left the three children ALONE in the apartment. They absolutely insist on it and checks were every 30 minutes, not 15 minutes.

It must be really important to them that we get that CLEAR.
Or simply that's one of few facts and therefore easy to substantiate. The rest - the timeline of who checked on whom at what time is heavily influenced by their concern about being accused of child neglect and possibly by their attempt at corroborating the McCanns' agenda.

Is it one of the few facts and therefore easy to substantiate?

What is easier to substantiate is Kate and Gerry`s inconsistent statements.

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Re: Room With A Tapas View

Post by Ribisl on Wed May 23, 2012 10:41 am

@jmac wrote:
@Ribisl wrote:
@jmac wrote:There are so many inconsistencies in their statements and everything changes: keys, doors, gemmied shutters. They are prepared to lie about everything.

The one thing, the only thing they have ever been consistent about, is that they left the three children ALONE in the apartment. They absolutely insist on it and checks were every 30 minutes, not 15 minutes.

It must be really important to them that we get that CLEAR.
Or simply that's one of few facts and therefore easy to substantiate. The rest - the timeline of who checked on whom at what time is heavily influenced by their concern about being accused of child neglect and possibly by their attempt at corroborating the McCanns' agenda.

Is it one of the few facts and therefore easy to substantiate?

What is easier to substantiate is Kate and Gerry`s inconsistent statements.
Sorry if I didn't make it clear but by one of few facts I meant that three children had been left alone in 5A. That seems more likely than other sleeping arrangements suggested here unless we find some new evidence.

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Re: Room With A Tapas View

Post by FH on Wed May 23, 2012 11:34 am

@jmac wrote:There are so many inconsistencies in their statements and everything changes: keys, doors, gemmied shutters. They are prepared to lie about everything.

The one thing, the only thing they have ever been consistent about, is that they left the three children ALONE in the apartment. They absolutely insist on it and checks were every 30 minutes, not 15 minutes.

It must be really important to them that we get that CLEAR.

Don't forget they are also insistant she was abducted. It is really important that we get that clear too, despite the fact there is no evidence to support it.

But is it the " left alone " bit they are insistant about, or the 30 minute checks? Which message are we being force fed?

I could be swayed by the fact that without negligence there can be no abduction and that the negligence has to be fabricated to bolster up the abduction, BUT, why would the other couples follow suit? Why and how have they all been sucked into this mess? If they had their own creche and the children were being looked after every night, then why would they all agree to be labelled as negligent parents? The McCanns could easily have said that they and only they, left their children and checked them at regular intervals. However, as Mrs Fenn heard a child in the room below crying for over an hour - there is evidence that one, if not all of the children, was left unattended for a lot longer than the 30 minute checks. So, at least for the child that cried and cried and cried, no one came and checked at anything like 30 minute intervals.

Perhaps the left alone is true, but the 30 minutes checks aren't? Perhaps that is the take home message? They knew there was evidence of negligence. After all there were no babies left in the free evening creche, no babysitters booked, staff at the Tapas bar would say they'd all been there all evening, every evening drinking copious amounts of wine..... So perhaps the checking is the important thing for us to be clear about.

Supposing they all left their children alone (maybe in the same apartment) and supposing something awful happened to a single child, but they all feel guilty, because it could just as easily have been their child. Would that explain them all being involved in the cover up? A sort of corporate guilt?

Having said that, there are two things I don't get. Firstly why the high level cover up - are they as has been suggested some king os spooks. An secondly, what I really don't get is if something awful happened earlier in the week and they planned a story to explain her disappearance, why is it so badly constructed and what do TM gain by it being an "abduction" from the apartment rather than a child wandering off. Was there indeed a need for negligence to allow for a fake abduction which was perhaps to be followed by a fake kidnap/ransom demand, followed by the safe return of the child and the pocketing of the ransom money, but somehow the plan went disasterously wrong (Shergar and the Lindbergh baby spring to mind) ? Was she actually dead at the point when they announced that she'd been taken, or was she carried away alive (and seen by the Smiths) just being kept somewhere safe by an accomplice, but then some tragedy happened (bumped on the head) and the whole plan went up in smoke and she can't be magically produced, so no point in making a ransom demand and they have to dispose of a body and cadaverine is transfered back to the apartment after the 3rd, but before the dogs arrived, perhaps from a missing tennis bag?

I know it's a little far fetched, but the only reason I can see for them sticking to the story of active abduction from the flat rather than her wandering off is that it allows for the return of the child.

I came back to my apartment and the door was unlocked and my child was missing, my first thought would be that she'd got up , got out and come looking for me. Which is exactly what the police thought.

If I was making up a story to explain away a missing child, that would probably be the one I'd go with. No abduction, no jemmied shutters, no strange man carrying a child. She probably just wandered off. Then perhaps was abducted, or fell into the harbour, or fell down a hole. I wouldn't need to admit I'd been negligent and left her unattended night after night and that she'd been abducted whilst unattended. I wouldn't want to look bad, or give people reason to question my parenting skills. I'd want the public sympathy on my side. I'd simply go to bed, accidentally leaving the patio doors unlocked ( an easy mistake for anyone to make and for which I'd never forgive myself) and they'd be open in the morning with no sign of the child. No way of telling if she'd wandered off, or been abducted.

So why abduction and only abduction? Surely it is better to have less information as to what happened, than to be so definate about her fate. The child would still be missing and the story would be much more believable. The fund could still be set up to search for her.

Perhaps she was meant to be back long before there were any real forensics and statements had been properly cross checked and inconsistencies found, but for some reason out of their control that couldn't happen and they couldn't admit to being involved in a faked abduction.

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Re: Room With A Tapas View

Post by jmac on Wed May 23, 2012 1:44 pm

Good post.

Yes, if I had found myself in the same set of circumstances my first thought would have been `Madeleine has gone looking for me and got lost`, and I would have searched frantically outside the apartment, calling out her name. It`s very strange that Kate didn`t do that.

I think the problem for the McCanns was that a child on her own could never have gone very far - and this was a child who was NOT going to be found.

I think that there probably was a degree of child neglect, but maybe in a locked apartment, and that is why the friends were easily involved.

Either way the McCanns are damned. They`re damned if they did, and they`re damned if they didn`t - by that I mean neglect the children.

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Re: Room With A Tapas View

Post by jd on Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:23 pm

Dianne Webster 4th May 2007:

Concerning the day yesterday,......To our question, the informant told us that given that her daughter had an intercom allowing them to hear if the children were shouting or crying, no one went to check on the spot. However, she reported that Kate and Gerald as well as other couples went a few times, on a regular basis, to make sure their children were OK.

Is she saying here that kate mccann went to check more than once on May 3rd?

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Re: Room With A Tapas View

Post by jd on Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:31 pm

Dianne Webster 11th May 2007

- Asked, she adds that she went to the restaurant in the company of her daughter and son-in-law.

- Asked directly if someone had gone to her apartment to call them (herself and the PAYNE couple) for dinner the witness said no.

- Asked if there was the possibility of having crossed paths with someone during the journey between her apartment and restaurant, the witness said no.

- That night she judges to have arrived at the restaurant close to 21:00, in the company of the PAYNE couple.

- That, at that time, the whole group were at the restaurant. The witness did not recall, but thinks that perhaps Gerald and MATT had not been in the restaurant along with the other members of the group.

- In this regard, asked specifically whether, on the journey to the restaurant, if they had passed either of the two individuals described in the preceding paragraph, she answered categorically not.

- Questioned about the members who, during the dinner, had absented themselves from the restaurant, the witness says that, as she recalls, there were some people who left, failing to identify which, except for RUSSELL who had left the restaurant and taken a little more time than usual due to, from what she knows, his daughter had been sick.

- Asked, she states that it would be normal for one member of each of the couples to get up regularly in order to check in their apartments if the children were well. She clarifies that the practice was for each couple to check their own children
it not being usual for anyone to check the children of other couples.

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Re: Room With A Tapas View

Post by russiandoll on Thu May 09, 2013 2:03 am

The Tapas group decided to leave their children unsupervised while they went to eat and to do regular checks, apart from the Paynes who used a listening device.

How many times did people need to interrupt what was meant to be a few hours social time, to do these checks?

Did any of them ever discuss anywhere, the options available and why they were ruled out? I know all about the Mill and the evening creche.
The main issue was that the children would be better in their apartments because of a sleeping routine.
Taking that as the starting point, surely there was a discussion about eating outside one of the apartments?

to be considered :

1. was there an easy way to get a couple of patio tables and necessary chairs to one large patio area?
2. was there an easy way to manage wine [ yes, fridge in apartment once brought back from tapas bar]

3. was there an easy way to fetch the food from the tapas bar?
4. how would that compare, inconvenience wise, with having to do the reverse journey, from the tapas bar to do their apartment checks? How often would how many people have to leave the table over an approx 3 hour period in each case?

The walk to do any checks would be minimal if eating on a nearby patio.
They could easily hear noise from their respective apartments if the area was quiet.
The only inconvenience was having a few people to go fetch food.

They could have given one mobile number to restaurant staff, who could call to let them know how many plates were ready. Then the group would know how many had to fetch the food.
They eat takeaways at home, if there was a microwave and food had cooled as it was carried, it could be quickly reheated.

Not much more inconvenient than eating at the bar and toing and froing to check.
With the big advantage, the most important issue, they were all closer to all the children.
Was this ever considered? To me it was the logical thing as the reverse of what they did.
If so, why ruled out?
If not, why not ?

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Re: Room With A Tapas View

Post by Guest on Thu May 09, 2013 2:09 am

Because boozing and swinging do not sit well with all those ill and irksome toddlers ambling in and out all the time?

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Re: Room With A Tapas View

Post by russiandoll on Thu May 09, 2013 8:47 am

Well, if there was swinging going on it would have taken place as an after- dinner activity and in one of the apartments unless they were at it al fresco !

Seriously now, I am trying to get away from the labyrithine stuff that addles the brain and go back to basics. The dinner arrangements.

Kate McCann talks about evening arrangements for the group's children in her book. She mentions the rejection of evening creche because sleeping tots would be disturbed when picking them up to take them "home". She says there was group rejection of apartment sitting because they were not comfortable leaving the children with strangers, even though these would have been the very nannies minding them in the day creche or their colleagues, who would I am sure have been introduced to the children during the day or at kids tea so that they would not be strangers.

The major concern was that sleep should not be disturbed, so that meant children in apartments. The next question was where to eat and the tapas was decided on. They did not have to eat there to eat the food cooked there, however.
The simple question to resolve was to eat at tapas and walk to check and back, or eat at an apartment and walk for food
and back.
We have been told ad nauseam that the bar was not that far away, and the distance was the same whichever you chose to do.
Would they not ,on the first day after deciding to get their food from the tapas bar, have sat at a table [ they did use the pool nearby] and got an idea of how visible the apartments were and the distance?

Did not the Paynes with their baby monitor think, if we hear it we can be in the apartment double quick, rather than have a crying child upset for the time it takes us to walk/run from the bar? They could have put their children in a ground floor
apartment with the other children, they only had to be disturbed for a
minute to return them upstairs. All waking children accessible in seconds.

Did none of them think that with a patio door closed and sleeping children at the far side of the apartment, any noise they made while talking and laughing would not wake the children, who tend to sleep through that kind of noise well?

Why was this obvious alternative not even considered? I am always interested in what Kate does not speak about.
Why did the group decide to eat at a distance, walk and check, rather than eat close to their sleeping children, and walk for food?

The silence about even considering this arrangement speaks volumes.
Did anyone in authority ever ask them about this? Anyone in the media?

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Re: Room With A Tapas View

Post by Guest on Thu May 09, 2013 8:55 am

True.
There are a couple of statements of holiday guests having "take-away" from Tapas and eating on their terrace / in their apartment.

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distance from apartments to Tapas bar

Post by worriedmum on Thu May 09, 2013 9:10 am

what sort of range do baby monitors work at?

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