Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

**alison** on Tue May 15, 2012 6:51 pm

Russian Doll - It`s been a long time since I studied the creche sheets in detail, but I think you`ll find that Madeleine was signed in and out every day until Thursday.

bobbin on Tue May 15, 2012 7:04 pm

russiandoll wrote: quote Tigger

If Maddie could be absent without an official sub having to take her place so much the better. Otherwise I'm stuck with a sub for the moment.

I have made this point before, creche attendance is not obligatory, Maddie could easily have not attended some days with a simple explanation her parents had other plans. Am I missing something here with the attendance? The sheets look to have been tampered with, but I can't understand why a sub would have been needed to prove a girl called Maddie McCann was alive and well and at OC on a certain date..she did not have to attend creche.
Stella a while back made a point of asking why she went late one morning..this was not a school, but a holiday play club for the benefit of families to use as and when they wished, wasn't it?

It's true creche wasn't compulsory, but it did mean that it served very well as a ready made record of the presence of a 'Maddie'.
Had she not been signed it at creche and the parents said they were elsewhere, they would need to provide foolproof evidence of where she was, or the suspicion of earlier demise would be under question.

Creche is the simplest way of demonstrating a presence because there is a 'written and signed' reference with supporting phone numbers. All very clear and kosher, on the surface.

nomendelta on Tue May 15, 2012 7:25 pm

My viewpoint is that we need to construct the simplest theory based on the evidence we have access to. This is what Amaral and Pat Brown have both done. Had Amaral started talking about doubting Maddies was even there (or as some have theorized that she never existed at all) he would have been laugehd at as well as reviled by the British media.

This is not to say the concept of a "sub" is beyond credibility. I just think at this stage it's going to come across as rather a silly notion and especially at this time when we need, as a forum, to be gaining support I think newcomers are likely to think we're all idiots. Sorry, but to be blunt.

As to help from the elite - well I don't see where the doubt is. They have a stranglehold over the media, noone is allowed to question them and now they have a review by SY which is designed to support them and is serving them in helping the fund. Yes, the fund you would think they shouldn't need any more now that SY are on the case...

tigger on Tue May 15, 2012 7:31 pm

russiandoll wrote: quote Tigger

If Maddie could be absent without an official sub having to take her place so much the better. Otherwise I'm stuck with a sub for the moment.

I have made this point before, creche attendance is not obligatory, Maddie could easily have not attended some days with a simple explanation her parents had other plans. Am I missing something here with the attendance? The sheets look to have been tampered with, but I can't understand why a sub would have been needed to prove a girl called Maddie McCann was alive and well and at OC on a certain date..she did not have to attend creche.
Stella a while back made a point of asking why she went late one morning..this was not a school, but a holiday play club for the benefit of families to use as and when they wished, wasn't it?

But that's the problem - according to the creche sheets she was there even when she was not (Dr. Roberts 'as if by magic'). So if she is in two places at once one day - according to Kate and the creche sheets - that is one occasion when they are compromised. Where there is one day of lax supervision, there may be more.

Yes, RD, I would love to find a way in which the creche sheets were fiddled without too much trouble. Only a few nannies were involved and the fact that two of them kept in touch with the McCanns - one of them visiting in November 2007 near the key date of the Rothley meeting - makes one wonder.
I think that's the one who then moved to New York to be a nanny for a rich family. Can't remember if it was Pennington or Baker, but the mcCanns also arranged accommodation at an undisclosed location or words to that effect. It almost looks as if she was 'managed'.

I just wonder if a friend of yours had two children and you wandered along with him to the creche, signing one of the children in. No one would notice.
I'll have to look at the creche records again.

OpenMind on Tue May 15, 2012 7:33 pm

Are there any parents on here who would be happy to lend their child to friends / aquaintances for the purpose suggested in "the sub theory"?
Whilst a reasonable parent may allow their child to accompany friends on a foreign holiday, if something earth-shattering and internationally publicised happened during that holiday would you be able to keep schtum? What would those people need to have on you to keep you quiet? What would it take to buy your silence?

I do not buy or have ever bought into the "sub theory". However I do not dismiss the possibility of some subtifuge being employed to confuse the creche sheets........

Am I right in thinking that the girl in question appeared in a newspaper article with her mother sometime after the event? Surely parading The Sub before the world would be ridiculous? Rolling Eyes

**candyfloss** on Tue May 15, 2012 7:47 pm

tigger wrote:
russiandoll wrote: quote Tigger

If Maddie could be absent without an official sub having to take her place so much the better. Otherwise I'm stuck with a sub for the moment.

I have made this point before, creche attendance is not obligatory, Maddie could easily have not attended some days with a simple explanation her parents had other plans. Am I missing something here with the attendance? The sheets look to have been tampered with, but I can't understand why a sub would have been needed to prove a girl called Maddie McCann was alive and well and at OC on a certain date..she did not have to attend creche.
Stella a while back made a point of asking why she went late one morning..this was not a school, but a holiday play club for the benefit of families to use as and when they wished, wasn't it?

But that's the problem - according to the creche sheets she was there even when she was not (Dr. Roberts 'as if by magic'). So if she is in two places at once one day - according to Kate and the creche sheets - that is one occasion when they are compromised. Where there is one day of lax supervision, there may be more.

Yes, RD, I would love to find a way in which the creche sheets were fiddled without too much trouble. Only a few nannies were involved and the fact that two of them kept in touch with the McCanns - one of them visiting in November 2007 near the key date of the Rothley meeting - makes one wonder.
I think that's the one who then moved to New York to be a nanny for a rich family. Can't remember if it was Pennington or Baker, but the mcCanns also arranged accommodation at an undisclosed location or words to that effect. It almost looks as if she was 'managed'.

I just wonder if a friend of yours had two children and you wandered along with him to the creche, signing one of the children in. No one would notice.
I'll have to look at the creche records again.

I think this is what you mean tigger, I have never read the bit in bold in your post before, have you got a link for that, this is what I remember.........

Mark Warner did not return Ms Baker to Portugal from Greece and she has since left the company. She is now a live-in nanny looking after three children. Her location is being withheld on the request of the McCanns.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-487506/Revealed-The-nanny-help-clear-McCanns-name.html

russiandoll on Tue May 15, 2012 7:54 pm

Sorry if I have muddied the waters even more, Tigger set me off [ blame Tigger !] with the difficult idea of an absent Maddie but no sub...
while the sub idea is interesting I remain very conflicted about it, mainly due to the involvement of others, so risky, and the complexity when I lean towards a simple event clouded by murk and lies after the event.
I also need to look again at creche sheets and re read about the creche because it appears sometimes well organised and with nannies interacting one on one and getting to know the children in their care, then it comes over as a free for all . sloppy record keeping re- attendance and I just thought, the only way an absent Maddie and no sub would work is if Maddie was stated to be doing something else that day or half day, nannies told well in advance, not the same day... [ no longer alive the real reason absent]... and at a busy drop off Maddie's name was signed in anyway, it was no more than a name on a sheet.
Very risky, but if the creche was mad busy and they knew things were sloppy.........could they, would they have risked this?

uppatoffee on Tue May 15, 2012 7:55 pm

Baker certainly went to work in America and is still there as far as I know.

monkey mind on Tue May 15, 2012 7:57 pm

nomendelta wrote:It's one thing to take the notion of a missing girl, link it to dogs tracing blood and cadaverine in the apartment she went missing from and conclude that, in all probability she died there.

We then have to mix into this how and why the tapas group would comply in covering up, why the British elite would help and so on. It's actually quite a stretch of belief to even come up with one simple thread that ties all the loose ends together. To then extend that to suggesting duplicates, Maddie was never on holiday, the photos are Maddie but Maddie is hidden or teh photos aren't Maddie but she's still hidden - to me adding in all those extra layers of complication do not help build credible theories.

Who said Maddie was never there other than you implying such? How do you know what helps build credible theories and lines of investigation in a major enquiry? Do you have experience in a single one of such things or many varied multiples of such? Have you investigated as a matter of course, murders, serial murderers, rapists, serial rapists, serial armed robbers, and varied major underworld figures? Can you claim to have been instrumental, absolutely instrumental, in solving not just one but all of these different types of crime? More than once in every category? Do you know the living breathing reality of such things? Do you know how many tracks such an investigation can follow and how it is the human that ultimately solves such a thing? No you have not. I know for a fact you would not express yourself in such a fashion if you had. Sheeeesh.

tigger on Tue May 15, 2012 8:03 pm

Candyfloss wrote: quoting from DM:
think this is what you mean tigger, I have never read the bit in bold in your post before, have you got a link for that, this is what I remember.........

Mark Warner did not return Ms Baker to Portugal from Greece and she has since left the company. She is now a live-in nanny looking after three children. Her location is being withheld on the request of the McCanns. unquote.

I'll have a look, she might be in New York - I'll do a trawl. I can't immediately remember where I saw it.

I agree with Russiandoll, I'd love to find a way to get Maddie listed without actually delivering a child. Aren't some of Gerry's signatures rather squeezed in?
I certainly don't think they were rigorous with the administration.

Another thing that argues against Maddie attending creche: where are the items she created? I've seen a list of the activities for the week once, it included making sculptures, drawings etc. We have none and I would have thought that these would be treasured and if not treasured - used for tearful publicity.
Maddie's last drawing.... photographs of the sad couple holding.... No, all they had was their own prop, Cuddlecat.