The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Hi!

A very warm welcome to The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ forum.

Please log in, or register to view all the forums, then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann.


Jill Havern
Forum owner

Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Page 3 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by Guest on 15.05.12 18:51

Russian Doll - It`s been a long time since I studied the creche sheets in detail, but I think you`ll find that Madeleine was signed in and out every day until Thursday.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by bobbin on 15.05.12 19:04

@russiandoll wrote: quote Tigger

If Maddie could be absent without an official sub having to take her place so much the better. Otherwise I'm stuck with a sub for the moment.


I have made this point before, creche attendance is not obligatory, Maddie could easily have not attended some days with a simple explanation her parents had other plans. Am I missing something here with the attendance? The sheets look to have been tampered with, but I can't understand why a sub would have been needed to prove a girl called Maddie McCann was alive and well and at OC on a certain date..she did not have to attend creche.
Stella a while back made a point of asking why she went late one morning..this was not a school, but a holiday play club for the benefit of families to use as and when they wished, wasn't it?

It's true creche wasn't compulsory, but it did mean that it served very well as a ready made record of the presence of a 'Maddie'.
Had she not been signed it at creche and the parents said they were elsewhere, they would need to provide foolproof evidence of where she was, or the suspicion of earlier demise would be under question.

Creche is the simplest way of demonstrating a presence because there is a 'written and signed' reference with supporting phone numbers. All very clear and kosher, on the surface.

bobbin

Posts : 2030
Reputation : 125
Join date : 2011-12-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by nomendelta on 15.05.12 19:25

My viewpoint is that we need to construct the simplest theory based on the evidence we have access to. This is what Amaral and Pat Brown have both done. Had Amaral started talking about doubting Maddies was even there (or as some have theorized that she never existed at all) he would have been laugehd at as well as reviled by the British media.

This is not to say the concept of a "sub" is beyond credibility. I just think at this stage it's going to come across as rather a silly notion and especially at this time when we need, as a forum, to be gaining support I think newcomers are likely to think we're all idiots. Sorry, but to be blunt.

As to help from the elite - well I don't see where the doubt is. They have a stranglehold over the media, noone is allowed to question them and now they have a review by SY which is designed to support them and is serving them in helping the fund. Yes, the fund you would think they shouldn't need any more now that SY are on the case...

nomendelta

Posts : 312
Reputation : 22
Join date : 2011-05-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by tigger on 15.05.12 19:31

@russiandoll wrote: quote Tigger

If Maddie could be absent without an official sub having to take her place so much the better. Otherwise I'm stuck with a sub for the moment.


I have made this point before, creche attendance is not obligatory, Maddie could easily have not attended some days with a simple explanation her parents had other plans. Am I missing something here with the attendance? The sheets look to have been tampered with, but I can't understand why a sub would have been needed to prove a girl called Maddie McCann was alive and well and at OC on a certain date..she did not have to attend creche.
Stella a while back made a point of asking why she went late one morning..this was not a school, but a holiday play club for the benefit of families to use as and when they wished, wasn't it?

But that's the problem - according to the creche sheets she was there even when she was not (Dr. Roberts 'as if by magic'). So if she is in two places at once one day - according to Kate and the creche sheets - that is one occasion when they are compromised. Where there is one day of lax supervision, there may be more.

Yes, RD, I would love to find a way in which the creche sheets were fiddled without too much trouble. Only a few nannies were involved and the fact that two of them kept in touch with the McCanns - one of them visiting in November 2007 near the key date of the Rothley meeting - makes one wonder.
I think that's the one who then moved to New York to be a nanny for a rich family. Can't remember if it was Pennington or Baker, but the mcCanns also arranged accommodation at an undisclosed location or words to that effect. It almost looks as if she was 'managed'.

I just wonder if a friend of yours had two children and you wandered along with him to the creche, signing one of the children in. No one would notice.
I'll have to look at the creche records again.


____________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.

tigger

Posts : 8112
Reputation : 27
Join date : 2011-07-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by OpenMind on 15.05.12 19:33

Are there any parents on here who would be happy to lend their child to friends / aquaintances for the purpose suggested in "the sub theory"?
Whilst a reasonable parent may allow their child to accompany friends on a foreign holiday, if something earth-shattering and internationally publicised happened during that holiday would you be able to keep schtum? What would those people need to have on you to keep you quiet? What would it take to buy your silence?

I do not buy or have ever bought into the "sub theory". However I do not dismiss the possibility of some subtifuge being employed to confuse the creche sheets........

Am I right in thinking that the girl in question appeared in a newspaper article with her mother sometime after the event? Surely parading The Sub before the world would be ridiculous? Rolling Eyes

____________________
Keeping an open mind, always!gm

OpenMind

Posts : 66
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-01-28
Location : UK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by Guest on 15.05.12 19:47

@tigger wrote:
@russiandoll wrote: quote Tigger

If Maddie could be absent without an official sub having to take her place so much the better. Otherwise I'm stuck with a sub for the moment.


I have made this point before, creche attendance is not obligatory, Maddie could easily have not attended some days with a simple explanation her parents had other plans. Am I missing something here with the attendance? The sheets look to have been tampered with, but I can't understand why a sub would have been needed to prove a girl called Maddie McCann was alive and well and at OC on a certain date..she did not have to attend creche.
Stella a while back made a point of asking why she went late one morning..this was not a school, but a holiday play club for the benefit of families to use as and when they wished, wasn't it?

But that's the problem - according to the creche sheets she was there even when she was not (Dr. Roberts 'as if by magic'). So if she is in two places at once one day - according to Kate and the creche sheets - that is one occasion when they are compromised. Where there is one day of lax supervision, there may be more.

Yes, RD, I would love to find a way in which the creche sheets were fiddled without too much trouble. Only a few nannies were involved and the fact that two of them kept in touch with the McCanns - one of them visiting in November 2007 near the key date of the Rothley meeting - makes one wonder.
I think that's the one who then moved to New York to be a nanny for a rich family. Can't remember if it was Pennington or Baker, but the mcCanns also arranged accommodation at an undisclosed location or words to that effect. It almost looks as if she was 'managed'.

I just wonder if a friend of yours had two children and you wandered along with him to the creche, signing one of the children in. No one would notice.
I'll have to look at the creche records again.


I think this is what you mean tigger, I have never read the bit in bold in your post before, have you got a link for that, this is what I remember.........

Mark Warner did not return Ms Baker to Portugal from Greece and she has since left the company. She is now a live-in nanny looking after three children. Her location is being withheld on the request of the McCanns.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-487506/Revealed-The-nanny-help-clear-McCanns-name.html





Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by russiandoll on 15.05.12 19:54

Sorry if I have muddied the waters even more, Tigger set me off [ blame Tigger !] with the difficult idea of an absent Maddie but no sub...
while the sub idea is interesting I remain very conflicted about it, mainly due to the involvement of others, so risky, and the complexity when I lean towards a simple event clouded by murk and lies after the event.
I also need to look again at creche sheets and re read about the creche because it appears sometimes well organised and with nannies interacting one on one and getting to know the children in their care, then it comes over as a free for all . sloppy record keeping re- attendance and I just thought, the only way an absent Maddie and no sub would work is if Maddie was stated to be doing something else that day or half day, nannies told well in advance, not the same day... [ no longer alive the real reason absent]... and at a busy drop off Maddie's name was signed in anyway, it was no more than a name on a sheet.
Very risky, but if the creche was mad busy and they knew things were sloppy.........could they, would they have risked this?

____________________



             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


russiandoll

Posts : 3942
Reputation : 8
Join date : 2011-09-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by uppatoffee on 15.05.12 19:55

Baker certainly went to work in America and is still there as far as I know.

uppatoffee

Posts : 626
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-09-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by monkey mind on 15.05.12 19:57

@nomendelta wrote:It's one thing to take the notion of a missing girl, link it to dogs tracing blood and cadaverine in the apartment she went missing from and conclude that, in all probability she died there.

We then have to mix into this how and why the tapas group would comply in covering up, why the British elite would help and so on. It's actually quite a stretch of belief to even come up with one simple thread that ties all the loose ends together. To then extend that to suggesting duplicates, Maddie was never on holiday, the photos are Maddie but Maddie is hidden or teh photos aren't Maddie but she's still hidden - to me adding in all those extra layers of complication do not help build credible theories.

Who said Maddie was never there other than you implying such? How do you know what helps build credible theories and lines of investigation in a major enquiry? Do you have experience in a single one of such things or many varied multiples of such? Have you investigated as a matter of course, murders, serial murderers, rapists, serial rapists, serial armed robbers, and varied major underworld figures? Can you claim to have been instrumental, absolutely instrumental, in solving not just one but all of these different types of crime? More than once in every category? Do you know the living breathing reality of such things? Do you know how many tracks such an investigation can follow and how it is the human that ultimately solves such a thing? No you have not. I know for a fact you would not express yourself in such a fashion if you had. Sheeeesh.

monkey mind

Posts : 616
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2011-12-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by tigger on 15.05.12 20:03

Candyfloss wrote: quoting from DM:
think this is what you mean tigger, I have never read the bit in bold in your post before, have you got a link for that, this is what I remember.........

Mark Warner did not return Ms Baker to Portugal from Greece and she has since left the company. She is now a live-in nanny looking after three children. Her location is being withheld on the request of the McCanns. unquote.

I'll have a look, she might be in New York - I'll do a trawl. I can't immediately remember where I saw it.

I agree with Russiandoll, I'd love to find a way to get Maddie listed without actually delivering a child. Aren't some of Gerry's signatures rather squeezed in?
I certainly don't think they were rigorous with the administration.

Another thing that argues against Maddie attending creche: where are the items she created? I've seen a list of the activities for the week once, it included making sculptures, drawings etc. We have none and I would have thought that these would be treasured and if not treasured - used for tearful publicity.
Maddie's last drawing.... photographs of the sad couple holding.... No, all they had was their own prop, Cuddlecat.

____________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.

tigger

Posts : 8112
Reputation : 27
Join date : 2011-07-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by uppatoffee on 15.05.12 20:07

@tigger wrote:Candyfloss wrote: quoting from DM:
think this is what you mean tigger, I have never read the bit in bold in your post before, have you got a link for that, this is what I remember.........

Mark Warner did not return Ms Baker to Portugal from Greece and she has since left the company. She is now a live-in nanny looking after three children. Her location is being withheld on the request of the McCanns. unquote.

I'll have a look, she might be in New York - I'll do a trawl.

I agree with Russiandoll, I'd love to find a way to get Maddie listed without actually delivering a child. Aren't some of Gerry's signatures rather squeezed in?
I certainly don't think they were rigorous with the administration.

Tigger did you see I wrote baker is the one in the states. I think it is New York now you mention it.

uppatoffee

Posts : 626
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-09-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by monkey mind on 15.05.12 20:21

[quote="nomendelta"]My viewpoint is that we need to construct the simplest theory based on the evidence we have access to. This is what Amaral and Pat Brown have both done. Had Amaral started talking about doubting Maddies was even there (or as some have theorized that she never existed at all) he would have been laugehd at as well as reviled by the British media.
quote]

Simplest theory is usually but not always best.

GA was under tremendous pressure. How do you know that *accident* was his conclusion and not his opening bid?

Just because 'profilers' like Pat Brown come up with a theory doesn't make it conclusively correct. The best profilers are those that deal with the worst elements of society on a daily basis, not read from a book but the hard reality of it. I'll leave you with a paragraph from 'Madaleine's Star', now this is a true, hardcore, experienced, human detective speaking, a good one........

.“Those are 'simple explanations' exactly because they derive from the most basic, and monstrous, core of feelings that the human being is capable of. Self-preservation at any cost; egoism; the need for absolute power; avarice; despise for others; hedonism. João Tavares has always believed that the human being, no matter how educated and how instructed, no matter how polished in its image and in its manners, is capable of literally anything.”

Now THAT, is a profiler, that, is a man with first hand experience and importantly, insight. That, is a true detective. You can take that to the bank, for what it is worth.


monkey mind

Posts : 616
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2011-12-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by tigger on 15.05.12 20:23

@ uppatoffee.

So Baker in the states and visiting Rothley in November (any other time would not be so suspicious) when the songsheets were handed out. Location withheld on the request of the mcCanns. Hmm.
Bear in mind as well that it was 'us against the world' Brits against the terrible and cruel Portuguese justice system. Much easier to get some cooperation from your fellow Brits, especially when they're getting 15 minutes of fame as well and are being interviewed and photographed. Could go to a girls' head, that sort of thing.

____________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.

tigger

Posts : 8112
Reputation : 27
Join date : 2011-07-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by tigger on 15.05.12 20:54

@ monkeymind
Exactly, Amaral only used material that was available to him. At the time he decided to use the charges that would stick, rather than what really may have happened. His last interview is worth reading (it's on the site here somewhere).
Shame they didn't do that, because it would have been lots of money for them after that - a token stay in prison, the press on their side and the film and the book all there for them with none of the legal troubles they have now.

@nomendelta
I think we're at cross purposes here. You must have been alarmed by the WUMs (I think we have 2 or three now) who are giving us ridiculous plots for putative novels and so on. No-one remotely sensible here has ever suggested she wasn't ever there, or didn't even exist. There were two Maddies, the real one and the one presented to us by her parents. A difficult, hard to control child and the happy, loving child they should have had. So many pictures are at odds with each other.
The parents don't tell us much about the child, the funny things she did, how and what she played with the twins, etc. That's not natural. I'd bore people stiff with such stories.
We all seem to agree that a sub throws up a mountain of problems - but the description of her by the nannies is the opposite of the descriptions by her family and others. Shy - versus a handful, stroppy, a screamer. She loved water - the nannies say she was frightened of water and so on.

O yes, another thing that might help - Brigit Wilkins said there were some ten little blond girls of that age in the creche.


____________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.

tigger

Posts : 8112
Reputation : 27
Join date : 2011-07-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by uppatoffee on 15.05.12 21:03

@tigger wrote:@ uppatoffee.

So Baker in the states and visiting Rothley in November (any other time would not be so suspicious) when the songsheets were handed out. Location withheld on the request of the mcCanns. Hmm.
Bear in mind as well that it was 'us against the world' Brits against the terrible and cruel Portuguese justice system. Much easier to get some cooperation from your fellow Brits, especially when they're getting 15 minutes of fame as well and are being interviewed and photographed. Could go to a girls' head, that sort of thing.

Does seem odd that she would fly in from wherever she was to come to the house of a family she hardly knew. They must have paid her flight/travel expenses. It just seems odd. But then doesn't so much of this "mystery" Rolling Eyes

uppatoffee

Posts : 626
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-09-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by monkey mind on 15.05.12 21:51

@uppatoffee wrote:
@tigger wrote:@ uppatoffee.

So Baker in the states and visiting Rothley in November (any other time would not be so suspicious) when the songsheets were handed out. Location withheld on the request of the mcCanns. Hmm.
Bear in mind as well that it was 'us against the world' Brits against the terrible and cruel Portuguese justice system. Much easier to get some cooperation from your fellow Brits, especially when they're getting 15 minutes of fame as well and are being interviewed and photographed. Could go to a girls' head, that sort of thing.

Does seem odd that she would fly in from wherever she was to come to the house of a family she hardly knew. They must have paid her flight/travel expenses. It just seems odd. But then doesn't so much of this "mystery" Rolling Eyes

I suppose it's more than possible they may not necessarily have paid her expenses, they were struggling with the mortgage after all. Weren't they? Perhaps they took a directors loan from the *fund* though unsurprisingly I don't recall that mentioned in the accounts. Nor the repayment of such loan. There was something smokily similar shown in a later account I believe but heck, who knows. Perhaps the Kennedy in a china shop chipped in . Again. So many benefactors and the queen pin now more concerned with her own neck than theirs. Nice.

monkey mind

Posts : 616
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2011-12-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by Spaniel on 15.05.12 22:14

@david_uk wrote:
@bobbin wrote:david_uk

"indeed, I think, as with everyone else we do not know. But I have
not seen anything that proves anomalies
, I remember reading the last
photos threads way back and filed it all with subs and Psychics!."

Yes, we DO NOT KNOW, nor is anything 'PROVEN' yet.

That is precisely why we are still looking, testing every detail, weighing them all up, one against the other.
Each piece of a jigsaw will have no 'relevance' sighted on its own.

It is only when juxtaposed with another complementary bit that it takes on a significance.
Even a gap, of a certain shape can have significance if it helps the searcher to look for a piece that shape.

I would not wish to be arrogant and dismissive of what in the initial phase might seem spurious, or wild ideas since each and everyone of these may have significance at a later stage.

Even to dismiss 'psychics' is risky, since sometimes the perpetrator of an evil act will enjoy tantalising the researchers by dropping information their way.

An open mind, and the determination to continue until a satisfactory outcome is reached is better than 'dismissal' of something that may currently not have significance.



I prefer to stick to more tangible evidence and inconsistencies (inc Creche records).We all have our own thought processes , I am personally happy to dismiss anything involving Photoshopped pics,Substitutes, pre-planned fake abductions etc. Im sure the PJ have already gone through this process and separated the wheat from the chaff, the result being the 48 Questions?. I dont think we should be discussing the children any more than needed and discussions about subs tend to evolve into the bizzarre!,
I welcome all theories no matter how outlandish, because somewhere in one, may just spark something, a tiny smidgen, anything to find Madeleine.

As for photoshopping, I have no knowledge but I do have a question on the last picture so will post there.

Spaniel

Posts : 742
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-01-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by Badboys on 15.05.12 23:07

@tigger wrote:@ uppatoffee.

So Baker in the states and visiting Rothley in November (any other time would not be so suspicious) when the songsheets were handed out. Location withheld on the request of the mcCanns. Hmm.
Bear in mind as well that it was 'us against the world' Brits against the terrible and cruel Portuguese justice system. Much easier to get some cooperation from your fellow Brits, especially when they're getting 15 minutes of fame as well and are being interviewed and photographed. Could go to a girls' head, that sort of thing.

Catriona baker supposedly lives in massachusetts,however there may be a mix up,some of these internet sources may be incorrect

Badboys

Posts : 69
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-12-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by russiandoll on 15.05.12 23:55

quick post re creche sheets...this should be on the creche topic, so will post there also...
I noticed kikor told a member a while back that he/she could find info on a topic kikor had begun entitled HOW MADDIE'S CRECHE ATTENDANCE WAS ARRANGED. I could not find it, pmd kiko who does not come here often, no reply......contacted admin asking where this research was, no reply, can only guess it is in a private area somewhere, anyone any ideas?

____________________



             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


russiandoll

Posts : 3942
Reputation : 8
Join date : 2011-09-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by monkey mind on 16.05.12 0:04

@russiandoll wrote: quick post re creche sheets...this should be on the creche topic, so will post there also...
I noticed kikor told a member a while back that he/she could find info on a topic kikor had begun entitled HOW MADDIE'S CRECHE ATTENDANCE WAS ARRANGED. I could not find it, pmd kiko who does not come here often, no reply......contacted admin asking where this research was, no reply, can only guess it is in a private area somewhere, anyone any ideas?

Why not ask him on twitter??

Or why not examine the records with a keen eye for yourself?? Few questions will be necessary after that.

monkey mind

Posts : 616
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2011-12-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Where was Murat's daughter during April 28th and May 5th 2007

Post by Guest on 16.05.12 0:06

@russiandoll wrote: quick post re creche sheets...this should be on the creche topic, so will post there also...
I noticed kikor told a member a while back that he/she could find info on a topic kikor had begun entitled HOW MADDIE'S CRECHE ATTENDANCE WAS ARRANGED. I could not find it, pmd kiko who does not come here often, no reply......contacted admin asking where this research was, no reply, can only guess it is in a private area somewhere, anyone any ideas?

Yes it is in the researchers only section. I will check with admin on whether it can be moved or not.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum