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Maddie's Sticker Book

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by Guest on 06.02.14 21:36

@brixham wrote:I think that one thing that this episode demonstrates is that whatever happened to Madeleine, did happen that night.  Ripping up her book seems a very strange thing to do but if that was the only paper available to you and you need to get the story straight before the imminent arrival of the police then it would just have to do. If anything had happened to Madeleine in the preceding days there would not be such a last minute panic. Just a thought and only my opinion.
I agree. After reading so much on here and theories elsewhere, i was swaying to the idea that MBM died on the 2nd if not earlier than that even. However i am now more inclined to think she met her demise on the 3rd and it was very much a rush / panic job before the police arrived hence like you say getting stories straight / writing then approving timeline etc before the police arrival. After that they got incredibly lucky. IMO of course.

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 06.02.14 22:18

Andrew77R wrote:
@brixham wrote:I think that one thing that this episode demonstrates is that whatever happened to Madeleine, did happen that night.  Ripping up her book seems a very strange thing to do but if that was the only paper available to you and you need to get the story straight before the imminent arrival of the police then it would just have to do. If anything had happened to Madeleine in the preceding days there would not be such a last minute panic. Just a thought and only my opinion.
I agree. After reading so much on here and theories elsewhere, i was swaying to the idea that MBM died on the 2nd if not earlier than that even. However i am now more inclined to think she met her demise on the 3rd and it was very much a rush / panic job before the police arrived hence like you say getting stories straight / writing then approving timeline etc before the police arrival. After that they got incredibly lucky. IMO of course.
I can see where you are coming from Andrew. Personally, I believe that there are several indicators that point to a 'disaster' occurring before the 3rd. (last photo/creche records/phone activity/external assistance on hand/formation time for cadaverine and detection in several places).

Perhaps lack of a timeline (anticipating the question from the PJ) led to the panic destruction of the sticker book.

If everyone was being truthful, then a documented timeline such as this would not be necessary. Everyone would be in agreement and events would stand up to any scrutiny, either working forwards or backwards from any point in time. You wouldn't need to write anything down or try and remember anything. It would be what happened and there would be no contradiction.

IMO naturally.

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by canada12 on 06.02.14 22:43

I have two opinions.

One is that something very bad happened to Madeleine in the day or two prior to the 3rd, but it didn't immediately cause her death. And then she did die on the 3rd, probably unexpectedly. And because of what happened prior to the 3rd, it was necessary that her body not be found.

The other opinion is that she died prior to the 3rd, but the only people who knew about it were Kate and Gerry, and possibly one or two others in their closest circle of friends. The scenario that was acted out on the 3rd was for the benefit of the other Tapas friends who weren't immediately clued in, but were clued in that night as it all unfolded.

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by Guest on 06.02.14 22:48

@Carrry On Doctor wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:
@brixham wrote:I think that one thing that this episode demonstrates is that whatever happened to Madeleine, did happen that night.  Ripping up her book seems a very strange thing to do but if that was the only paper available to you and you need to get the story straight before the imminent arrival of the police then it would just have to do. If anything had happened to Madeleine in the preceding days there would not be such a last minute panic. Just a thought and only my opinion.
I agree. After reading so much on here and theories elsewhere, i was swaying to the idea that MBM died on the 2nd if not earlier than that even. However i am now more inclined to think she met her demise on the 3rd and it was very much a rush / panic job before the police arrived hence like you say getting stories straight / writing then approving timeline etc before the police arrival. After that they got incredibly lucky. IMO of course.
I can see where you are coming from Andrew. Personally, I believe that there are several indicators that point to a 'disaster' occurring before the 3rd. (last photo/creche records/phone activity/external assistance on hand/formation time for cadaverine and detection in several places).

Perhaps lack of a timeline (anticipating the question from the PJ) led to the panic destruction of the sticker book.

If everyone was being truthful, then a documented timeline such as this would not be necessary. Everyone would be in agreement and events would stand up to any scrutiny, either working forwards or backwards from any point in time. You wouldn't need to write anything down or try and remember anything. It would be what happened and there would be no contradiction.

IMO naturally.
I seem to change my own theory of what happened almost daily. There always seems to be something new that that i can find on here which changes my perception of what happened and then i find something else which influences towards my original theory. 

So i will sit on the fence a bit before my head falls off and agree with GA's theory that MBM met her demise sometime early eve on the 3rd.

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 06.02.14 23:24

Note the time of 9:55.

On one timeline 9:55 is circled, and it says 'Kate realises Madeleine' (I think).
On the other there is the time 9:55, with nothing written beside it.  It is the only time with nothing written beside it.

On the first, the important (circled) times are late, 9:55 and 10:00.
On the second, the important time window has been stretched back to 9:20 - 10:00.  This is the one that says 'GERALD' on it.



On the first timeline it says:

'Jerry 9:10 - 9:15 in tv room + all well
                  ? did he check'

Gerry cannot have been present when this was written, as implied by the words 'did he check', and by the logic that there would be no need to write this question if indeed he was present at the time of writing.  It is a reminder to ask him the question when he does become present.

On the timeline marked 'GERALD' we have an answer to that question:

'9:15pm Gerry McCann looks at room. (squiggle) ? Door open to bedroom.'

On the second timeline the entry for 9:20 'sees stranger carrying a child' now has a box around it, indicating a new level of importance.

On the first timeline Matt checks and sees twins at 9:35.  On the second timeline there is no mention of this check.  As the checks within 5A would obviously be of the greatest relevance, I assume that this was a deliberate omission. My theory is that the 'window of opportunity' was widened between the writing of the two timelines, the first without Gerry present, the second with Gerry present.  Matt's 9:35 check had to go, because it was slap bang in the middle of this window of opportunity.  However, Matt didn't get the message, and gave the original story to the police in his statement the next day.

On the second timeline, Russell has a poorly daughter.  This is new information not mentioned in the first timeline.

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 06.02.14 23:31

@canada12 wrote:I have two opinions.

One is that something very bad happened to Madeleine in the day or two prior to the 3rd, but it didn't immediately cause her death. And then she did die on the 3rd, probably unexpectedly. And because of what happened prior to the 3rd, it was necessary that her body not be found.

The other opinion is that she died prior to the 3rd, but the only people who knew about it were Kate and Gerry, and possibly one or two others in their closest circle of friends. The scenario that was acted out on the 3rd was for the benefit of the other Tapas friends who weren't immediately clued in, but were clued in that night as it all unfolded.
I do agree that all Tapas were not in the know. This may explain discrepancies in the timelines, with unwitting Tapas telling it as it is, and the rest having to retro-fit a cover trying to include the genuine recollections of others. The Tapas meal seemed too hurried to be normal, which also points to things being staged that evening.

I think that if others Tapas were subsequently drawn into this then TM must have had a strong hold on them to keep them silent. Any normal person learning of this would blow the whistle given the severity. This makes me think some Tapas genuinely didn't know at the time. This could still have been the case for the Tapas meetings back in England and could still true to this day.

We may never find out exactly how things unfolded unless someone has come clean, which is a real possibility. There will be much happening behind the scenes as we speculate. AR is much smarter than TM and CM, and they know it. Showtime soon I hope....for everyone's sanity......please Andy !!

IMO of course

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by Guest on 06.02.14 23:55

@Carrry On Doctor wrote:
@canada12 wrote:I have two opinions.

One is that something very bad happened to Madeleine in the day or two prior to the 3rd, but it didn't immediately cause her death. And then she did die on the 3rd, probably unexpectedly. And because of what happened prior to the 3rd, it was necessary that her body not be found.

The other opinion is that she died prior to the 3rd, but the only people who knew about it were Kate and Gerry, and possibly one or two others in their closest circle of friends. The scenario that was acted out on the 3rd was for the benefit of the other Tapas friends who weren't immediately clued in, but were clued in that night as it all unfolded.
I do agree that all Tapas were not in the know. This may explain discrepancies in the timelines, with unwitting Tapas telling it as it is, and the rest having to retro-fit a cover trying to include the genuine recollections of others. The Tapas meal seemed too hurried to be normal, which also points to things being staged that evening.

I think that if others Tapas were subsequently drawn into this then TM must have had a strong hold on them to keep them silent. Any normal person learning of this would blow the whistle given the severity. This makes me think some Tapas genuinely didn't know at the time. This could still have been the case for the Tapas meetings back in England and could still true to this day.

We may never find out exactly how things unfolded unless someone has come clean, which is a real possibility. There will be much happening behind the scenes as we speculate. AR is much smarter than TM and CM, and they know it. Showtime soon I hope....for everyone's sanity......please Andy !!

IMO of course
Regards to the other tapas being in the know - i do like this theory (link below) that it was only Diane Webster who didn't know what was going on and the rest all did.

I'm sure you have probably read it and it has been discussed on here before (somewhere). 

unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.co.uk/p/theory-english.html

I read this, agreed and convinced she died on the 2nd then read other equally plausible theories which convinces me the 3rd. God knows!!!!

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 07.02.14 0:28

Andrew77R wrote:
@Carrry On Doctor wrote:
@canada12 wrote:I have two opinions.

One is that something very bad happened to Madeleine in the day or two prior to the 3rd, but it didn't immediately cause her death. And then she did die on the 3rd, probably unexpectedly. And because of what happened prior to the 3rd, it was necessary that her body not be found.

The other opinion is that she died prior to the 3rd, but the only people who knew about it were Kate and Gerry, and possibly one or two others in their closest circle of friends. The scenario that was acted out on the 3rd was for the benefit of the other Tapas friends who weren't immediately clued in, but were clued in that night as it all unfolded.
I do agree that all Tapas were not in the know. This may explain discrepancies in the timelines, with unwitting Tapas telling it as it is, and the rest having to retro-fit a cover trying to include the genuine recollections of others. The Tapas meal seemed too hurried to be normal, which also points to things being staged that evening.

I think that if others Tapas were subsequently drawn into this then TM must have had a strong hold on them to keep them silent. Any normal person learning of this would blow the whistle given the severity. This makes me think some Tapas genuinely didn't know at the time. This could still have been the case for the Tapas meetings back in England and could still true to this day.

We may never find out exactly how things unfolded unless someone has come clean, which is a real possibility. There will be much happening behind the scenes as we speculate. AR is much smarter than TM and CM, and they know it. Showtime soon I hope....for everyone's sanity......please Andy !!

IMO of course
Regards to the other tapas being in the know - i do like this theory (link below) that it was only Diane Webster who didn't know what was going on and the rest all did.

I'm sure you have probably read it and it has been discussed on here before (somewhere). 

unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.co.uk/p/theory-english.html

I read this, agreed and convinced she died on the 2nd then read other equally plausible theories which convinces me the 3rd. God knows!!!!
He sure does...and I think AR/SY have a pretty good idea too !

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by Doug D on 07.02.14 11:08

If all (or even some) in the know, apart from DW that evening, there would not have been the need for the panicked timeline. Something must have gone wrong for the sudden need to change or clarify the presumably previously agreed story, which could also explain why GM did not have time or forgot to ‘do’ the shutters.

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by Guest on 07.02.14 12:40

@Doug D wrote:If all (or even some) in the know, apart from DW that evening, there would not have been the need for the panicked timeline. Something must have gone wrong for the sudden need to change or clarify the presumably previously agreed story, which could also explain why GM did not have time or forgot to ‘do’ the shutters.

Jez Wilkins happened

But for him, the child probably would have been on her way half an hour earlier than was the case when he turned up unexpectedly.

This cut in half the available disposal time, and messed up a panicking Smithmans' walkabout

IMO

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by Dr What on 07.02.14 13:16

I agree Portia.
I think when Jane T went to do her 'check', she was acting out her part in all this.She was supposed to have reported seeing the 'abductor'.If all had gone according to plan, GM would have been no where near the scene.However, JW appeared, forcing GM to put down anything that he was carrying, and forcing him to engage in a conversation.GM could think on his feet.But JT could not.She kept to the ridiculous story, despite not being seen by anyone having the conversation on a narrow road,  and as a result, the whole thing started unravelling.The agreed timeline had to be re-arranged, and some people there were more able to think on their feet than others.Things that should have been done were not done and everything became rushed and overlooked.

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by suzyjohnson on 08.02.14 19:01

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Note the time of 9:55.

On one timeline 9:55 is circled, and it says 'Kate realises Madeleine' (I think).
On the other there is the time 9:55, with nothing written beside it.  It is the only time with nothing written beside it.

On the first, the important (circled) times are late, 9:55 and 10:00.
On the second, the important time window has been stretched back to 9:20 - 10:00.  This is the one that says 'GERALD' on it.



On the first timeline it says:

'Jerry 9:10 - 9:15 in tv room + all well
                  ? did he check'

Gerry cannot have been present when this was written, as implied by the words 'did he check', and by the logic that there would be no need to write this question if indeed he was present at the time of writing.  It is a reminder to ask him the question when he does become present.

On the timeline marked 'GERALD' we have an answer to that question:

'9:15pm Gerry McCann looks at room. (squiggle) ? Door open to bedroom.'

On the second timeline the entry for 9:20 'sees stranger carrying a child' now has a box around it, indicating a new level of importance.

On the first timeline Matt checks and sees twins at 9:35.  On the second timeline there is no mention of this check.  As the checks within 5A would obviously be of the greatest relevance, I assume that this was a deliberate omission. My theory is that the 'window of opportunity' was widened between the writing of the two timelines, the first without Gerry present, the second with Gerry present.  Matt's 9:35 check had to go, because it was slap bang in the middle of this window of opportunity.  However, Matt didn't get the message, and gave the original story to the police in his statement the next day.

On the second timeline, Russell has a poorly daughter.  This is new information not mentioned in the first timeline.
Well done. Did O'Brien actually hand both of these timelines to the police or did the police pick them up from the table?

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by suzyjohnson on 08.02.14 19:02

@Dr What wrote:I agree Portia.
I think when Jane T went to do her 'check', she was acting out her part in all this.She was supposed to have reported seeing the 'abductor'.If all had gone according to plan, GM would have been no where near the scene.However, JW appeared, forcing GM to put down anything that he was carrying, and forcing him to engage in a conversation.GM could think on his feet.But JT could not.She kept to the ridiculous story, despite not being seen by anyone having the conversation on a narrow road,  and as a result, the whole thing started unravelling.The agreed timeline had to be re-arranged, and some people there were more able to think on their feet than others.Things that should have been done were not done and everything became rushed and overlooked.

Good thinking, there could be something in that

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by Guest on 08.02.14 19:15

@suzyjohnson wrote:
@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Note the time of 9:55.

On one timeline 9:55 is circled, and it says 'Kate realises Madeleine' (I think).
On the other there is the time 9:55, with nothing written beside it.  It is the only time with nothing written beside it.

On the first, the important (circled) times are late, 9:55 and 10:00.
On the second, the important time window has been stretched back to 9:20 - 10:00.  This is the one that says 'GERALD' on it.



On the first timeline it says:

'Jerry 9:10 - 9:15 in tv room + all well
                  ? did he check'

Gerry cannot have been present when this was written, as implied by the words 'did he check', and by the logic that there would be no need to write this question if indeed he was present at the time of writing.  It is a reminder to ask him the question when he does become present.

On the timeline marked 'GERALD' we have an answer to that question:

'9:15pm Gerry McCann looks at room. (squiggle) ? Door open to bedroom.'

On the second timeline the entry for 9:20 'sees stranger carrying a child' now has a box around it, indicating a new level of importance.

On the first timeline Matt checks and sees twins at 9:35.  On the second timeline there is no mention of this check.  As the checks within 5A would obviously be of the greatest relevance, I assume that this was a deliberate omission. My theory is that the 'window of opportunity' was widened between the writing of the two timelines, the first without Gerry present, the second with Gerry present.  Matt's 9:35 check had to go, because it was slap bang in the middle of this window of opportunity.  However, Matt didn't get the message, and gave the original story to the police in his statement the next day.

On the second timeline, Russell has a poorly daughter.  This is new information not mentioned in the first timeline.
Well done. Did O'Brien actually hand both of these timelines to the police or did the police pick them up from the table?

To answer the last question first: the police caught them redhanded, writing them and seized them there and then.

Of course, these timelines immediately put the lie to their so called not having any watches on them

Also please note that GM is named as Jerry, implying they did not really know each other THAT well

Which begs the question why you would volunteer burying yourself in this vipers nest, as both MO and ROB and Jane have done

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by Guest on 08.02.14 19:42

@Portia wrote: [...]

Also please note that GM is named as Jerry, implying they did not really know each other THAT well

Which begs the question why you would volunteer burying yourself in this vipers nest, as both MO and ROB and Jane have done
***
Indeed.

ETA
Hence IMO "Gerald" on version 2 = not to sign that timeline of, but to correct his name ...

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by Guest on 08.02.14 19:50

Châtelaine wrote:
@Portia wrote: [...]

Also please note that GM is named as Jerry, implying they did not really know each other THAT well

Which begs the question why you would volunteer burying yourself in this vipers nest, as both MO and ROB and Jane have done
***
Indeed.

ETA
Hence IMO "Gerald" on version 2 = not to sign that timeline of, but to correct his name ...

OK; taking this one step further, then the timelines were not meant for Gerry or Kate (and heaven forbid not for the police) but for MO and ROB and their wives, as crib sheets, mainly to whitewash the alleged activities of the casual acquaintance the only knew as Jerry

IMO

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by Guest on 08.02.14 22:21

It's definitely a thought ...

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by canada12 on 08.02.14 22:44

I think for timelines to have any credence at all, they would have to be separate notes. I don't buy the idea that a group of people would get together and create a "group" timeline to account for a missing child. I think if all of the group were genuinely concerned about a real timeline, they'd have each created their own, with their own concepts of where they were and what they were doing that evening, and then notes might have been compared.

A timeline like this just reeks of a group "alibi" more than anything else.

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by tiny on 09.02.14 6:38

Why was it that only MO noticed the shutters down and why underline it,did he check all shutters?,i think these timelines are total bullshit

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 09.02.14 10:04

Châtelaine wrote:
Hence IMO "Gerald" on version 2 = not to sign that timeline of, but to correct his name ...

Yes, I think that's the best explanation for it, it's certainly not a signature.

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 09.02.14 10:22

@tiny wrote:Why was it that only MO noticed the shutters down and why underline it,did he check all shutters?,i think these timelines are total bullshit
Why take the bother of writing the second names ( Jane Tanner, Russell O'Brian, Gerry McCann, Matt Oldfield ). I think it because the list was meant for the Police.

The 1st list was written as a working copy to work out the order of events. I think the second list ( on the right, ) was written in a more tidy and was meant for the Polic. Two times are circled 9:20 , 10:00 as an effort to say when Madeline went missing.

The reason Gerald is written at the bottom in different hand writing is either because it is his copy of the list or it is really his sticker book and not Madelines. ( :-) )


Does anyone know who's hand writing the sticker book timelines are written in?

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by tiny on 09.02.14 10:39

@DurhamGuy1967 wrote:
@tiny wrote:Why was it that only MO noticed the shutters down and why underline it,did he check all shutters?,i think these timelines are total bullshit
Why take the bother of writing the second names ( Jane Tanner, Russell O'Brian, Gerry McCann, Matt Oldfield ). I think it because the list was meant for the Police.

The 1st list was written as a working copy to work out the order of events. I think the second list ( on the right, ) was written in a more tidy and was meant for the Polic. Two times are circled 9:20 , 10:00 as an effort to say when Madeline went missing.

The reason Gerald is written at the bottom in different hand writing is either because it is his copy of the list or it is really his sticker book and not Madelines. ( :-) )


Does anyone know who's hand writing the sticker book timelines are written in?
I think it was russel obrien

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Re: Maddie's Sticker Book

Post by tiny on 09.02.14 10:47

Jane checks 5d at 9-20,10 mins at 9-30 later Russell checks 5d and finds child unwell,so was this child unwell when jane did her check, I don't believe jane checked 5d at all, all make believe

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