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Means and Motive etc

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Means and Motive etc

Post by bunny on 19.02.10 17:25

I have just been sent a post from a friend. She didn't write it herself but was so impressed by it sent it on to me. I beleive the lady repsonsible for the post is Snoop...thanks Snoop.

The reason I am posting it here is that I would like Tony to give some response to it if possible. In fact anyone really
Motive, means, opportunity, and indicative character history.

There is not a single, credible, coherent account of how the parents (and/or friends) could or would have committed the crime of disposing of Madeleine’s body. Nor is there any evidence that they did so. No case, indicative or otherwise, could be constructed by the PT police, and none has been subsequently by any of the internet colombos following this case.

We accordingly have 2 anti camps: those who simply invent outlandish stories piled on top of each other to account for the key questions. And those who simply avoid them, dwelling instead on their ‘suspicions’ and snippets of information, considered entirely in isolation of they key questions.

The dog alerts, the samples, the forensic analysis - all have been put under the microscope by those less qualified than the experts who conducted the investigation, and in every case, our forumistas consider themselves qualified to cast doubt upon the actual findings.

This is wishful thinking with no more credibility than the crazy conspiracy theories. It is all there in the reports: no evidence. And not only no evidence, but no expert opinion backing up the, er, forum experts. Martin grime does not say: ‘no forensic evidence but my dogs are never wrong and I consider this highly indicative that a corpse was present’. No, he says the alerts are only ‘suggestive’ of contaminant and that ‘no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from them’. Unless or until one of our forum ‘experts’ can produce the credentials to challenge the findings under peer review conditions, I think I’ll stick with the real experts, and anyone who does otherwise is a fool.

And even if you narcissistically believe your suspicions to have sufficient weight to cast doubt on the experts in the confines of your egotistical mind (cos it means F all in the real world), you still need to account for the basics: who, when, why, where, how.

A word on ‘demeanour’ because this keys into character. Its often claimed that the McCanns demeanour was inappropriate for the events. If you actually read the accounts of those around them, who have seen them, over time, it seems to be entirely within normal range: hope, despair, grief, determination; and caused no suspicions amongst those qualified to comment. To maintain the ‘demeanour’ accusation, demands that our pitchforkers selectively analyse mere moments in the thousands of hours that have passed since the events, and pin entire character histories and accusations to these fragments of time. Caught smiling – must be guilty. Reported to be crying – must be acting.

The illogicality and sheer nastiness of this particular line of suspicion in incredible. There is no manual on how to respond to a tragedy, and history is full of examples of people reacting in all sorts of ways. Rarely can it ever be analysed as an indicator of complicity, and in the few cases that it can be, there is a substantial and clear evidence base analysed over time by those qualified to do so. Not by pitchforkers who hate the sight of them, and twist anything and everything to suit their pre-set agenda.

More significantly, there is absolutely no character history to indicate any of these people have the psychological mind set to both commit a terrible crime (perfectly) and then go on to parade their criminality in our faces though setting up a fraudulent fund and barefaced maintaining the lie over a substantial period of time. Any ‘normal’ person attempting to do this would have collapsed under the strain. Only a psychopath could maintain such a level of incongruity, and there is nothing in either character history (let alone both or more) to indicate psychopathy. Psychopaths cannot sustain careers, jobs, friendships, relationships; they lie, cheat and damage people around them. Anyone who has ever been ‘close’ to a psychopath knows it, even if they cannot put a diagnostic term upon it. Psychopaths are not created overnight, they leave a long history trail behind them, and there is nothing in the McCann family histories to indicate anything of the sort, and significant indicators to rule them out of this category. These are facts.

And finally, statistics: statistically the likelihood of the parents pulling off the most successful and audacious crime in living memory under the circumstances we know is incalculable, because it would be unprecedented, therefore it is statistically far less likely than an abduction. Its that simple.

And still, there is motive, means and opportunity to be accounted for.

No motive: Most that have ever been offered -such as risk of loss of career, status etc, are predicated upon a psychopath’s response to a situation, and there is no evidence to substantiate this, nothing to suggest these people would be anything but devastated and immobilised by grief had they found their child dead. Accordingly, more and more bizarre motives are invented, all without any evidence base. Illegal drugs, swinging, paedophilia, murder. Nothing to support any of these claims.

No means: How would these parents have disposed of a body, unseen? Only by resorting to methods that are again predicated upon an assumption of psychopathy. Stuffing bodies into bags, burying them on the beach, digging them up again, freezing them, driving around with a corpse in your car, nipping off between media appearances to dig graves without even breaking sweat, wandering brazenly through PDL openly with the corpse of your child in your arms. All without being spotted, or your actions being discovered, or the body ever being found. None of this is credible, not for one moment.

No opportunity: to have done all or any the above would take an army of resources and local knowledge, it would certainly take more than two people (thereby increasing the unliklihood of it having happened), it would have taken ‘staging’ of proportions the opera house would struggle to muster, since no person was absent from others view for anything like the time required to pull these stunts off. It just didn’t happen.

I’ve heard it all before, and no where, no time, has any anti ever come up with a credible refutation of what I have posted here. Yes, I have heard all the stories about parents who hid their child’s body. Yes I’ve heard the stories of those who pretended to be looking, or set up some sort of fund. Yes I’ve heard all about medical negligence. Yes, I know far too much about the psychopaths and narcissists who have blighted the lives of a rather high percentage of the hater types on these forums. But there is not, by definition, any existing case that can compound all these factors to draw a parallel.

And part parallels are pointless. Anyone can stitch together a patchwork of completely disparate and separate events and link them to different parts of the case, but that in no way makes the coalescence of all these types of events into this one event in any way possible let alone likely. Anyone can pick one picture and wonder about the quality of the expression on someone’s face. Anyone can pick one piece of information from the files and, in exclusivity from all other pieces, wonder if there isn’t more to the story. This is not thoughtful, this is not credible curiosity, this is not intelligent reasoning, this is not the pursuit of truth and justice, it’s a witchunt

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by jmbd on 19.02.10 17:33

Incredible - that was first posted on another forum in April 09.

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by bunny on 19.02.10 17:34

Really wow

My goodness...can't believe I have never seen it before.

I thought it was very good.

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by twinkle on 19.02.10 17:39

Snoop's a fella.

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by Cath on 19.02.10 17:40

That long ago and nobody's challenged it?

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by bunny on 19.02.10 17:41

@twinkle wrote:Snoop's a fella.

Oh no...so sorry snoop :oops:

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by bunny on 19.02.10 17:42

Inyx wrote:That long ago and nobody's challenged it?

Surely someone must have taken it on by now....are you sure?

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by Pascal on 19.02.10 17:43

I was more impressed by his observations of Majic.

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by justagrannynow 1 on 19.02.10 18:01

Inyx wrote:That long ago and nobody's challenged it?

I commented on it on the MM forum, in particular putting in a good word for all the creative psychopaths who lead productive lives, enriching the lives of ordinary folk like myself with their talents in the artistic world.

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by Cath on 19.02.10 18:03

@Pascal wrote:I was more impressed by his observations of Majic.

What did he write?

@justagrannynow 1 wrote:I commented on it on the MM forum, in particular putting in a good word for all the creative psychopaths who lead productive lives, enriching the lives of ordinary folk like myself with their talents in the artistic world.

Is it stilll up there? Got a link or can you reproduce it?

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by bunny on 19.02.10 18:10

Yes, Id love to see a response about this post......anything that directly challenges it is fine by me.

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by twinkle on 19.02.10 18:15

[quote="Inyx"]
@Pascal wrote:I was more impressed by his observations of Majic.

What did he write?

majic. how does he do it. if i was being kind i'd say he has all the right intentions and all the wrong instincts.

but the time for kindness is past.

i have no idea where he came from, something to do with his aunty making a statement or something, but he's never been content to be just another opinion on this topic, oh no, nothing so... average... could ever be good enough for a man who pretends he is at least 3 different people and not only talks about himself in the 3rd person, but also to his various alter egos. majic. raptor. andy. chaos. feckwit.

he has always positioned himself as emperor of the moral high ground, tolerant, munificent guide to his flock, holy father to any passing prodigal sons, daughters or wandering dogs (that about covers the rest of us little posters), and possibly the last (and therefore, ethnomusicologically speaking, very important) KLF fan.

its great being an invincible, immortal tri-partate god cos you just bumble about wreaking havoc with a benign (and slightly patronising) grin on yer mush, certain that, despite the yelps and cries around you (forgive them, they know not what they do) you have everyone's best interests at heart. and of course, you know their best interests better than they do. dear, silly, little people.

invariably, there will be those who try to crucify you, but, determined never to be outdone in any act of any thing, majic always gets there first.

there was the occasion upon which he killed himself off. i forget the details now, but raptor died. oh yes he did. well actually, he copied LeeAnnDeVette and never actually died, just pretended, but we won't refer to that bit, and instead just give thanks that, after about 3 days, he was restored to us. just like new! but more so!

so, after 40 days and 40 nights in the ex/ex mods, he started his own forum to unite the tribes, in which he simply self replicated and became all his own moderators, whilst spamming the board with pronouncements that he was none of them. what a disaster that was. the tribes weren't too good at uniting. especially when their glorious leader was clearly on one side only. and that side was halfway up one ex mods ass, and half way down another's cleavage. which accounts for why iamaprat hates him so; that was supposed to be his job.

throughout this (and i may be missing a few episodes here) he becomes the target of the wrath of the pitchforker brigade. Never mind the McCanns, look how they picked on madjic! I'm never quite sure why they did though, cos andy has singlehandedly done more to undermine the anti-3As alliance than any other living (or deified) poster. if pitchforkers had any brains they'd have just sat back and watched him weave his crazy majic..

but oh no. for mysterious reasons, undoubtedly related to his immense symbolic and actual importance, andy has probably copped more flak in this forum 'war zone' than anyone else. his employers written to, porn posted, his flatmate-cum-girlfriend (or it may be just abother incarnation of the god-head) terrified, stalked, harrassed, outed.... he bravely kept us posted about all this - never mind the mcCanns, lets talk about ME!!

then, a couple of weeks ago, raptor was targetted by highly shadowy forces and gunshots were fired at his house. oh yes they were. you at the back, stop sniggering! so andy duly retired from the fray in a blaze of self publicity, our blessed healer had been wounded.... all say.... 'ahhh'

but hell, you didn't say it loud enough, so 3 days later we had yet another rising from the tomb, this time to complete the final stages of martyrdom.

so what does he do: peace brokers in the floundation fall out by offering the services of an anonymous independent auditor to check the floundation books. it turned out to be kizzy. pitchforker of the 1st order, and long time ally of bennett.

then he confounds even his disciples by forgiving laffin, apologising to him, withdrawing all the mean and nasty things he ever said about him, and instructing his 'community' to respect his decisions.

WTF? has andy gone mad? is it all a special majic trap? is the real second coming of christ posting amongst us?

no. its majic's latest effort to regain centre stage.

because actually, if there is one thing that has 'united' the diaspora of the anti-3A posting community, from our several and different ideologies and bases, its watching the floundation meltdown and the pitchforkers turning on each other.

but no-body puts baby in the corner, so he's come out screaming.

again.

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by Cath on 19.02.10 18:30

Thanks Twinkle. laughat
I remember now I've read it. I don't read Majics site, did he respond to it?

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by bunny on 19.02.10 18:48

No no, back on topic.....what about means and motivation laughat

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by Pascal on 19.02.10 18:52

What about it?

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by Pascal on 19.02.10 19:01

Oh ok. Usual Snoop style really so it isn't an easy one to respond to.

It's an attack and challenge for a fight. All this stuff about 'wishful thinking' puts everyone in the same pot, which I resent. I don't think like Tony Bennet for example. Indeed there are many hardened 'anti's who don't, never mind the poor defencless 'wall flowers' like wot I am.

Motive - I don't think the McCanns were motivated to willfully hurt their daughter.

I can't get much past that.

Can you get him to write something about the latest developments??

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by Kololi on 19.02.10 22:33

Hi
I would go with no motive to harm Madeleine but lots of motive to perhaps tell porky pies once they discovered that she was missing.

Take care

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by Pascal on 19.02.10 22:38

sounds right to me Kol thumbsup

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by Autumn on 19.02.10 23:01

@Kololi wrote:Hi
I would go with no motive to harm Madeleine but lots of motive to perhaps tell porky pies once they discovered that she was missing.

Take care

Its almost inconceivable to think that anyone would wish to deliberatly harm Madeleine but, sadly, that possiblilty cannot be ruled out. My belief is that she was fatally injured in the apartment and maybe, because they all feared being charged with neglect, they agreed to cover-up what had happened. As doctors, presumably they stood to lose their jobs and reputations had they been prosecuted for neglect - as they say, a little lie becomes a big lie. I sometimes wonder if they could turn the clock back if things would have turned out differently.

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by twinkle on 19.02.10 23:08

A theory I leaned towards very heavily initially Autumn.

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by bunny on 19.02.10 23:23

See, I have never understood that at all. Why on earth would anyone having found their Daughter dead think about their careers first?

And really is it possible that every single (you stated "they all") friend in that group would agree to cover it up?

I don't know one person who wouldnt run screaming and shouting to the nearest police station that I was trying to cover up the death of my child!

9 people and you believe they all agreed to cover it up?

Autumn, how many friends do you have that would cover up for you? would you cover up for one of your friends in that situation?

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by Pascal on 19.02.10 23:30

@ Bunny - sorry to cut in. But how do you know that they didn't have something to cover up? Something that would give cause for them to lose their jobs, family and way of life?

Personally I don't know anyone who has been in that position and couldn't even begin to imagine how I would deal with the situation.

Many have speculated about the McCanns general demeanour after their child went missing. I don't see how this is any different.

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by bunny on 19.02.10 23:32

So you think it is not only possible but probably that 9 people all agreed to cover up the death of a child?

Im asking because I do not want to make an assumption that is incorrect/

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by bunny on 19.02.10 23:33

@Pascal wrote:@ Bunny - sorry to cut in. But how do you know that they didn't have something to cover up? Something that would give cause for them to lose their jobs, family and way of life?

Personally I don't know anyone who has been in that position and couldn't even begin to imagine how I would deal with the situation.

Many have speculated about the McCanns general demeanour after their child went missing. I don't see how this is any different.

Tell me what you think they may have had to cover up....im genuinely interested.

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Re: Means and Motive etc

Post by Pascal on 19.02.10 23:36

I've no idea. As I said I couldn't even begin to comprehend it, not having been in that position. But it isn't beyond the realms of possibility that there is something to cover up. Is it? Or do you think it is impossible?

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