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Wednesday 2nd of May

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by friedtomatoes on 24.04.12 22:33

@sami wrote:
@friedtomatoes wrote:
@sami wrote:friedtomatoes - I would be surprised if they did not try to establish when the photographs they were provided with were taken, in particular having regard to the doubt as to the source of the ones that were alleged to have been printed on the night she was reported missing.

I did not read about the policeman through conspiracy bloggers, it was through an article written by what has been, up to now anyway, a credible source. Indeed his name and police station to which he was attached were published. He appeared also in that photo with Neill Berry and the police dog. I was not aware it was a forum myth, I am surprised at that.

Care to elaborate? My point about the photos being investigated time wise was merely about the PJ accepting the chikd was alive on Thursday.


Maybe I have misunderstood what you meant, but you said "The PJ were satisfied that Madeleine was seen alive late afternoon of
the 3rd May, they would not be trying to find out when certain pictures
were taken before that".

My point is I believe they did try to establish the timing of all of the photos they were provided with and that would include the playground one. Given the lack of confirmed sightings of her, the photographs would have been a useful tool for them, imo.

The PJ were concerned about the printing of photos post abduction pdq and not photos of Madeleine pre abduction, they h ave never said they believe she was not around prior 3 May

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by russiandoll on 24.04.12 22:43

re trainers with flashing lights.
I have never seen a boy of any age wearing them, they are wherever I have seen them a girl thing.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by tigger on 25.04.12 7:03

@russiandoll wrote: re trainers with flashing lights.
I have never seen a boy of any age wearing them, they are wherever I have seen them a girl thing.

It's the only time we hear of these trainers, I suspect that the trainers with the pink soles that look new in photograph nr 12 (see Maddie's clothes) may be those.
I just don't understand that they're not in evidence after that - there is no reason to doubt the cleaner who said she saw three children all wearing these.

But as Tuom pointed out earlier, it's strange that the little pink dress and the shorts are never in evidence again. So was that photograph taken much earlier? The previous year? Because she could easily be 3 and say 4 months there. Certainly looks younger than the tennis girl.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by tigger on 25.04.12 7:13

Phone calls 2nd May. (this is after the quick-fire set of calls on Kate's phone the previous evening, when the crying started when Kate left 5a)
K McCann make 14 calls on 1st May.
Gerry made 16 calls on 2nd May.
GM KM
02-May 02-May
8.07
8.07
9.02
9.10
9.13
9.18
10.35
10.47
11.38
12.35
13.25
13.46
13.48
13.59
15.44
15.49
15.50
17.49
19.49
20.14
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_1064.jpg





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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by PeterMac on 25.04.12 7:48

Is there a gap long enough for a game of tennis ?

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by tigger on 25.04.12 7:50

From the 'concise phone thread' topic:

Kikoratton wrote:

You've all prompted me to look at the possibility that the T7 might have tried to communicate with Murat. Or, during his silence, with one of his associates. It has to be said that some of the relevant pages of the PJ report are reproduced so badly, that the crucial numbers cannot be read.
During the period of the Murat/Gerry mobile silence, which extended in both their cases from 1545 on 2 May to 2315 after the "abduction" on 3 May, the Tapas Seven were almost equally silent. Exceptions are Rachel Oldfield who received a text from an unidentified UK mobile at 1133 on 3rd, and O'B who received a text said to be from his mother at 1053 on the same day.
But now you bright guys mention it, the interesting one is this: Tanner received a very brief call - no more than a pulse - from somebody at her child's pre-school group, Stoke Hill in Exeter, at 1359 on 2 May. A pre-planned signal, you might well think. Tanner returned the call from her mobile - it lasted over three minutes - at 1433. An hour and twelve minutes later began the joint mobile silence.
Nothing proven, but given the possibility that the person at Stoke Hill was also an acquaintance of Robert Murat, it's conceivable that Tanner was passing a message between them, and they had taken the trouble to set up the call with the pulse at 1359.
unquote.

I'm a bit lost here. re the Murat/Gerry mobile silence, because the PJ file lists four more activations after 15.44 that day on Gerry's phone. Might these be voice mails?
It certainly looks like the 2nd was a very fraught day altogether.

Robert Murat and GMc switching off their mobiles at the same time15.45 on that day.
Gerry's phone had no activity on the 30th or on the 1st.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by russiandoll on 25.04.12 9:18

Well silence is one thing but when active........I think it is a bizarre amount of phone use for people meant to be taking a break.
Some of the phone activity might well preclude a tennis game, I looked at phone ping maps yesterday and had the same thought !

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by Newintown on 25.04.12 13:51

@aiyoyo wrote:Oh, forgot to say, I did find it strange Kate made absolutely no mention of Maddie's past at all in her bewk, as if Maddie had no history.
You would think a proud mum would at least remember everything about her child, especially a lost child makes everything poignant -- her school, mates , friends, best friend, her likes and dislikes, hobbies, favourite food, events, outings, etc etc.

Also, you would think in time like this, any parent would have mentioned and thanked Maddie's friends who asked, talked, remembered, or shared about Maddie, but NO, zilch, nothing. Kate tells us nothing about Maddie's friends as if she has none or she didnt attend school.
How strange that kate heard nothing from Maddie's friends or parents of her friends, to commiserate with mccanns or to show concern over Maddie's plight! Those are things a normal mum would talk and write about, and go on and on about until people get sicked and tired of hearing it.

Kate told us nothing about Maddie at all, other than "she's lovely". An inanimate thing or an abstract thing can also be lovely.

I still believe that Madeleine did not live full time with the McCanns and the twins, but lived elsewhere, maybe with a relative. That would account for very few photos of Madeleine as a family member being available, or why Kate did not put any details in her book regarding Madeleine's likes, dislikes, favourite food etc as she did not know much of what Madeleine liked if spent very little time at their house, and also why Madeleine had no friends/school friends if she didn't go to nursery where the McCanns lived.

It would also account for why one of the 48 questions the PJ wanted to ask Kate McCann "was she thinking of giving Madeleine away to a relative". The PJ must have got that from somewhere, I doubt they would have made it up out of thin air!

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by tigger on 25.04.12 15:10

Exactly my idea too, Newintown.
I also think that Madeleine's health records would have explained a lot to the PJ. No reason to make them public, but surely important and even routine to get the health records in such a case.
It may be that she was getting some form of treatment and the hospital where this was done, was closer to other family members.
Kate talks about 'her fear of pain' and there are quite a few references in the bewk and from family members, also plenty of photographs which indicate that she was not a healthy child.

Kate said early on when asked if the twins were missing Madeleine, 'they never had much to do with her' or words to that effect.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by kimHager on 06.02.14 16:47

maybe off topic and already discussed but all the conflicting photos of maddy....im thinking instead of confusing the puvlic to what the missing maddy looks like maybe the photos were confusing because TM's was trying to confuse the ppl who had previously saw maddy..or they "think" was her maybe they deliberately confused housekeeping etc...to the point they say " yes that looks like the ,child or no it doesnt" did that make sense? no one knows what she looks like or who they WERE seeing at those scant times she was seen

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by ItWentWhoosh on 06.02.14 17:05

Tigger, which photos indicate that Madeleine was unhealthy?

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by tigger on 06.02.14 18:44

@ItWentWhoosh wrote:Tigger, which photos indicate that Madeleine was unhealthy?

Have a look atthese. http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t4537-most-pictures-taken-on-same-day?highlight=Most+pictures+tken

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by Guest on 06.02.14 18:50

@ItWentWhoosh wrote:Tigger, which photos indicate that Madeleine was unhealthy?

ItWentWhoosh, welcome back to the Forum.  You disappeared after your first post/question.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by tigger on 13.03.14 7:38

I'm just pulling this up because there's quite a lot of useful information in it on the phone pings and the tennis sessions.

There were questions on cars and so on recently. If the witness who described a man watching 5a is right on the date, it might be the 'help' - possibly arranged by Murat.


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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by russiandoll on 13.03.14 9:55

Imo these are the Key dates about which there is almost total if not total silence. The first witness statements to police dealt with the 3rd, as expected.

 The next ones dealt with all days after arrival, or should have done. As with the book of truth, the 2nd seems to be blotted out of history by Gerry

On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, apart from the deponent and his wife, he thinks that DAVID PAYNE also went to his apartment to check that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children. On this day, the deponent and KATE had already left the back door closed, but not locked, to allow entrance by their group colleagues to check on the children. He clarifies that the main door was always closed but not necessarily locked with the key. He does not know if the window next to the front door, and that gave access to the children's bedroom, was locked, given that he assumed that the shutters could not be opened from the outside. Still on this night, KATE slept in the children's bedroom, in the bed next to the window, because the deponent was snoring.

Nothing about the daytime of 2nd May. About the evening, he is careful to place himself and his wife in different bedrooms at a certain time. He mentions Payne having done a check on his children.
 He jumps straight from the 29th April to May 1st. Total silence about Monday 30th.

Dianne Webster and Rachel Oldfield concentrate on 3rd in their 2nd police statements, referring in passing to other days.

Matthew Oldfield sticks to 3rd, giving info about family illness for other dates. He places DP at a certain place within a specific time-frame.
About 18h00 he, Russell and David went to a social men's tennis match, held in the above resort area, where they remained until about 19h00. He clarifies that when they arrived at that meeting Gerald was already there, with Kate and her children watching the match; the rest of the women and children joining them [Kate and children] later.

At 19h00 he, Russell and David had finished the match, having then gone to their respective apartments in which they found other members of the group.

 Russell O Brien states that his wife's statements regarding the holiday confirms their actions.

Jane Tanner, out of all the group, gives detailed information about 2nd May, placing Maddie and Kate at specific locations at given times. Interestingly she is much less certain of Gerry's whereabouts.

 She has briefly alluded to dining arrangements on arrival day, 28th and the transcript contains a ref to Sunday 30th,[ an error re the day or date]. If the former, Jane says almost nothing about the Monday; either way she goes into extraordinary detail re the Wednesday. About the Tuesday, there is zero. Why go into this amount of detail about this particular day as opposed to the others prior to Maddie's disappearance?


About 2 May, the day before the disappearance of Madeleine Beth McCann, from memory, at 09h00 the deponent had a tennis lesson with Kate.

 
Every day they had breakfast at the Millennium restaurant and only afterwards did they take the children, on foot, to Kids Club, it being that Russell O'Brien took E**a to Mini Club and she took E**e.
 
Questioned about the route that the McCanns took with their children to Kids Club (since they took breakfast in the apartment), she said she did not know.
 
At 10h10 the children at Kids Club, her daughter E**a (and Madeleine Beth McCann), a total on six children including them, also had a tennis lesson. The responsible adults at the time were Cat and Georgina (tennis instructor). Kate was, together with the deponent, watching the lesson of their respective girls. The witness left before the class ended, not recalling if Kate Healy left at the same time or later.
 
She went to the beach where she met David and Fiona Payne. She and other members of the group made the acquaintance of, in the course of their tennis classes, a lady called O., the deponent's husband, Russell O'Brien, also knew the lady's husband named Rob from windsurf classes. The couple (Rob and O.) were also guests at the complex. That morning, after having been to her daughter's tennis class, the deponent went to the beach meeting Rob there. From what she knows, the couple Rob and O. have two children (a girl of 3 years and a younger child, not knowing if it was a boy or girl). She thinks they were Londoners. They were "normal" people.
 
While she was sailing, her husband stayed at home with E**e who was sick and indisposed. Questioned, she relates that this type of behaviour is normal with the British, namely, it is not necessary for both adults to sacrifice themselves when children are sick. The usual procedure in these situations is for them to divide the time and the tasks between them.
 
She recalls that after the boat trip she was with her husband and girls, all having gone to lunch at the apartment of Fiona and David Payne. She is not sure but thinks that Matthew Oldfield and Rachael Mampilly also lunched with them in the apartment. She does not know where the McCanns lunched.
 
After lunch, after they took E**a to Kids Club, Russell O'Brien went to the beach for a canoe class while she rested in the bedroom with E**e. After her daughter woke up she went with her to the children's play area ("slides") next to the pool.
 
She doesn't remember, but as Gerald McCann usually had tennis classes every afternoon, she thinks that he could have been on the court. As for Kate, she does not know if she saw her during the afternoon.
 
As usual at 17:00, they were at the children's tea with Kate, the time at which they would go to find [pick up] the children. With Kate and Gerry she went to the tennis courts where the adults and children of the group played [seriously] and played [for fun], respectively, with each other. They were at the courts until 19h00. At that time the men of the group (though she was not sure if Gerry was there) stayed a while longer to play tennis, the women went to their respective apartments to get [the children] ready for bed. 20-30 minutes later the men arrived. They got themselves ready for dinner. At 20h35, as E**a didn't want to sleep, Russell went to the restaurant alone. Around 20h45, E**a fell asleep and the deponent also left for the restaurant. When she arrived everyone else was already there, except for Rachael Mampilly who was feeling poorly and stayed in her apartment. Her husband, Matthew Oldfield, was at the restaurant. She doesn't recall if David and Fiona Payne were already there. It is usual for them to always be last to arrive, since they were always late.
 
About dinner, she relates that nothing abnormal happened regarding the checking of the bedrooms, it having been done in turns as usual.
 
Questioned about an episode where she related that one of the twins, Sean, and Madeleine Beth McCann (both children of Gerald McCann and Kate Healy), had cried in the night (the one prior to the events) she said she knew of that situation but only from the beginning of dinner on 3 May when Kate Healy commented at the table that Madeleine Beth McCann had, that morning, asked the reason why her parents had not come to the bedroom when she and her brother had cried (the previous night). Asked, she says that none of the adults were aware of that situation on the night that it supposedly occurred.
 
On Wednesday (2 May), after the dinner that went as normal, like the previous days, they had stayed later to have a drink at the bar returning to their apartments close to midnight.

The Paynes and Kate did not give second statements to the police.

 Gerry was silent about one day of his holiday and almost silent about another.

 Of this second date, Wednesday 2nd May, Jane Tanner out of all the group describes in detail what she and Russell did, guessed about Gerry, but about certain times she was sure of seeing Kate and Madeleine. About the Monday there is little or nothing from Jane.

As with 3rd, once again going to great lengths to help them.

 The Monday and Wednesday are  key dates and given the amount in the transcripts from Tanner re the latter, the 2nd is THE day to focus on and Tanner imo is the only person the police need to focus on to get to the truth.

 It seems with the elimination of Tannerman that she has spoken to them.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by tigger on 13.03.14 10:15

The Monday and Wednesday are key dates and given the amount in the transcripts from Tanner re the latter, the 2nd is THE day to focus on and Tanner imo is the only person the police need to focus on to get to the truth.

It seems with the elimination of Tannerman that she has spoken to them.
From above: unquote

That gives me some hope, was crecheman a gift to help her tell the truth, a sort of 'Look, you did not lie about bundleman - just mistaken, but we feel you may have made similar mistakes about other people seen at different times?'

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by Guest on 13.03.14 10:21

@russiandoll wrote:Imo these are the Key dates about which there is almost total if not total silence. The first witness statements to police dealt with the 3rd, as expected.

 The next ones dealt with all days after arrival, or should have done. As with the book of truth, the 2nd seems to be blotted out of history by Gerry

On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, apart from the deponent and his wife, he thinks that DAVID PAYNE also went to his apartment to check that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children. On this day, the deponent and KATE had already left the back door closed, but not locked, to allow entrance by their group colleagues to check on the children. He clarifies that the main door was always closed but not necessarily locked with the key. He does not know if the window next to the front door, and that gave access to the children's bedroom, was locked, given that he assumed that the shutters could not be opened from the outside. Still on this night, KATE slept in the children's bedroom, in the bed next to the window, because the deponent was snoring.

Nothing about the daytime of 2nd May. About the evening, he is careful to place himself and his wife in different bedrooms at a certain time. He mentions Payne having done a check on his children.
 He jumps straight from the 29th April to May 1st. Total silence about Monday 30th.

Dianne Webster and Rachel Oldfield concentrate on 3rd in their 2nd police statements, referring in passing to other days.

Matthew Oldfield sticks to 3rd, giving info about family illness for other dates. He places DP at a certain place within a specific time-frame.
About 18h00 he, Russell and David went to a social men's tennis match, held in the above resort area, where they remained until about 19h00. He clarifies that when they arrived at that meeting Gerald was already there, with Kate and her children watching the match; the rest of the women and children joining them [Kate and children] later.

At 19h00 he, Russell and David had finished the match, having then gone to their respective apartments in which they found other members of the group.

 Russell O Brien states that his wife's statements regarding the holiday confirms their actions.

Jane Tanner, out of all the group, gives detailed information about 2nd May, placing Maddie and Kate at specific locations at given times. Interestingly she is much less certain of Gerry's whereabouts.

 She has briefly alluded to dining arrangements on arrival day, 28th and the transcript contains a ref to Sunday 30th,[ an error re the day or date]. If the former, Jane says almost nothing about the Monday; either way she goes into extraordinary detail re the Wednesday. About the Tuesday, there is zero. Why go into this amount of detail about this particular day as opposed to the others prior to Maddie's disappearance?


About 2 May, the day before the disappearance of Madeleine Beth McCann, from memory, at 09h00 the deponent had a tennis lesson with Kate.

 
Every day they had breakfast at the Millennium restaurant and only afterwards did they take the children, on foot, to Kids Club, it being that Russell O'Brien took E**a to Mini Club and she took E**e.
 
Questioned about the route that the McCanns took with their children to Kids Club (since they took breakfast in the apartment), she said she did not know.
 
At 10h10 the children at Kids Club, her daughter E**a (and Madeleine Beth McCann), a total on six children including them, also had a tennis lesson. The responsible adults at the time were Cat and Georgina (tennis instructor). Kate was, together with the deponent, watching the lesson of their respective girls. The witness left before the class ended, not recalling if Kate Healy left at the same time or later.
 
She went to the beach where she met David and Fiona Payne. She and other members of the group made the acquaintance of, in the course of their tennis classes, a lady called O., the deponent's husband, Russell O'Brien, also knew the lady's husband named Rob from windsurf classes. The couple (Rob and O.) were also guests at the complex. That morning, after having been to her daughter's tennis class, the deponent went to the beach meeting Rob there. From what she knows, the couple Rob and O. have two children (a girl of 3 years and a younger child, not knowing if it was a boy or girl). She thinks they were Londoners. They were "normal" people.
 
While she was sailing, her husband stayed at home with E**e who was sick and indisposed. Questioned, she relates that this type of behaviour is normal with the British, namely, it is not necessary for both adults to sacrifice themselves when children are sick. The usual procedure in these situations is for them to divide the time and the tasks between them.
 
She recalls that after the boat trip she was with her husband and girls, all having gone to lunch at the apartment of Fiona and David Payne. She is not sure but thinks that Matthew Oldfield and Rachael Mampilly also lunched with them in the apartment. She does not know where the McCanns lunched.
 
After lunch, after they took E**a to Kids Club, Russell O'Brien went to the beach for a canoe class while she rested in the bedroom with E**e. After her daughter woke up she went with her to the children's play area ("slides") next to the pool.
 
She doesn't remember, but as Gerald McCann usually had tennis classes every afternoon, she thinks that he could have been on the court. As for Kate, she does not know if she saw her during the afternoon.
 
As usual at 17:00, they were at the children's tea with Kate, the time at which they would go to find [pick up] the children. With Kate and Gerry she went to the tennis courts where the adults and children of the group played [seriously] and played [for fun], respectively, with each other. They were at the courts until 19h00. At that time the men of the group (though she was not sure if Gerry was there) stayed a while longer to play tennis, the women went to their respective apartments to get [the children] ready for bed. 20-30 minutes later the men arrived. They got themselves ready for dinner. At 20h35, as E**a didn't want to sleep, Russell went to the restaurant alone. Around 20h45, E**a fell asleep and the deponent also left for the restaurant. When she arrived everyone else was already there, except for Rachael Mampilly who was feeling poorly and stayed in her apartment. Her husband, Matthew Oldfield, was at the restaurant. She doesn't recall if David and Fiona Payne were already there. It is usual for them to always be last to arrive, since they were always late.
 
About dinner, she relates that nothing abnormal happened regarding the checking of the bedrooms, it having been done in turns as usual.
 
Questioned about an episode where she related that one of the twins, Sean, and Madeleine Beth McCann (both children of Gerald McCann and Kate Healy), had cried in the night (the one prior to the events) she said she knew of that situation but only from the beginning of dinner on 3 May when Kate Healy commented at the table that Madeleine Beth McCann had, that morning, asked the reason why her parents had not come to the bedroom when she and her brother had cried (the previous night). Asked, she says that none of the adults were aware of that situation on the night that it supposedly occurred.
 
On Wednesday (2 May), after the dinner that went as normal, like the previous days, they had stayed later to have a drink at the bar returning to their apartments close to midnight.

The Paynes and Kate did not give second statements to the police.

 Gerry was silent about one day of his holiday and almost silent about another.

 Of this second date, Wednesday 2nd May, Jane Tanner out of all the group describes in detail what she and Russell did, guessed about Gerry, but about certain times she was sure of seeing Kate and Madeleine. About the Monday there is little or nothing from Jane.

As with 3rd, once again going to great lengths to help them.

 The Monday and Wednesday are  key dates and given the amount in the transcripts from Tanner re the latter, the 2nd is THE day to focus on and Tanner imo is the only person the police need to focus on to get to the truth.

 It seems with the elimination of Tannerman that she has spoken to them.

Russiandoll, thanks for that informative and interesting post.  If JT has spoken to the police it gives me hope that there is a conscience amongst the group and she deserves some credit for this.  Wondering if her partner, ROB, may also have talked?

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by noddy100 on 13.03.14 10:37

Some hospitals childrens ID bands are like those now thicker and multi coloured

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by petunia on 13.03.14 21:17

very interesting post RD  clapping many years ago a lady i worked with who's ex partner was a tv presenter, told her police liked to put people of interest in front of a TV camara to study there body language.It had never entered my head before she told me that the police would do that [maybe me a bit thick 20 yrs ago] from that day on i have watched these kind of news conferences with great interest.I watched Huntley,Tracey evens,the philpotts among others and thought they have done the crime.When I watched crimewatch last year and AR reveal he had found tannerman the very first thought that entered my mind was Jayne tanner has come clean.of course i may be very wrong and she hasn't.Also the other thing you mention that had me thinking was kate sleeping in the childrens room because jerry was snoring,when my hubby snores I will give him a kick and if he continues to snore I will take myself off to the spare bedroom and have done so on many occasion over the years.I am  not 100% on this but did Kate not say they didn't normally sleep apart? It's all so strange that Jerry just happened to be snoring and Kate for the first time in their married life went to sleep in the childrens room, and it just so happened on there holiday in portugal and not at home.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by Guest on 13.03.14 21:32

@petunia wrote:very interesting post RD  clapping many years ago a lady i worked with who's ex partner was a tv presenter, told her police liked to put people of interest in front of a TV camara to study there body language.It had never entered my head before she told me that the police would do that [maybe me a bit thick 20 yrs ago] from that day on i have watched these kind of news conferences with great interest.I watched Huntley,Tracey evens,the philpotts among others and thought they have done the crime.When I watched crimewatch last year and AR reveal he had found tannerman the very first thought that entered my mind was Jayne tanner has come clean.of course i may be very wrong and she hasn't.Also the other thing you mention that had me thinking was kate sleeping in the childrens room because jerry was snoring,when my hubby snores I will give him a kick and if he continues to snore I will take myself off to the spare bedroom and have done so on many occasion over the years.I am  not 100% on this but did Kate not say they didn't normally sleep apart? It's all so strange that Jerry just happened to be snoring and Kate for the first time in their married life went to sleep in the childrens room, and it just so happened on there holiday in portugal and not at home.

And the night before their daughter was abducted!

Why mention it at all?  Red Flag, IMO.

As Portia said on thread, "Kate upset with Gerry", the night K slept away from G, she robbed him of an alibi.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by Guest on 14.03.14 10:32

Ladyinred wrote:
@petunia wrote:very interesting post RD  clapping many years ago a lady i worked with who's ex partner was a tv presenter, told her police liked to put people of interest in front of a TV camara to study there body language.It had never entered my head before she told me that the police would do that [maybe me a bit thick 20 yrs ago] from that day on i have watched these kind of news conferences with great interest.I watched Huntley,Tracey evens,the philpotts among others and thought they have done the crime.When I watched crimewatch last year and AR reveal he had found tannerman the very first thought that entered my mind was Jayne tanner has come clean.of course i may be very wrong and she hasn't.Also the other thing you mention that had me thinking was kate sleeping in the childrens room because jerry was snoring,when my hubby snores I will give him a kick and if he continues to snore I will take myself off to the spare bedroom and have done so on many occasion over the years.I am  not 100% on this but did Kate not say they didn't normally sleep apart? It's all so strange that Jerry just happened to be snoring and Kate for the first time in their married life went to sleep in the childrens room, and it just so happened on there holiday in portugal and not at home.

And the night before their daughter was abducted!

Why mention it at all?  Red Flag, IMO.

As Portia said on thread, "Kate upset with Gerry", the night K slept away from G, she robbed him of an alibi.

Kate for the first time in their married life went to sleep in the childrens room.


This is another one of those Kateisms that is designed to paint a picture of a pefect family but shows that they were anything but!

Babies have sleepless nights for any number of reasons and Kate herself said that the pair of them sat at the kitchen table sobbing because they couldn't get Madeleine to stop screaming (or something along those lines).

When I was on maternity leave, I slept in my son's room regularly on weeknights when he was teething, or ill, or that one night where the little barsteward just decided that he didn't want to go to sleep and kept trying to climb out of his cot.

This allowed my husband to get a reasonably undisturbed night's sleep before he went to work the next morning while I spent the next day zombified, jamas on & cat-napping with baby.

Is Kate really so selfish that she would have allowed Gerry's sleep to be disturbed before a hard day's cardiologing (or whatever you call it)?

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by Mirage on 14.03.14 14:17

I put this on another thread and then saw this one which is more relevant so am re-posting it here.
----------------------------------------------

With a dearth of information on the nature of the relationships between the tapas group I find the following extract from MO's Rogatory at Leics on 9th April 2008 quite illuminating:

4078 "As you got to know Gerry and Kate how did you find them?"

Reply "Yeah, they're, erm, I mean, they're very similar sort of people. I mean, they were absolute, they absolutely loved their kids and there's no question to any of us that they had anything to do with this. Erm, they were appropriate, friendly, they had the same, I mean, we're all medics, so you've got that in common anyway. Erm, but, yeah, I mean, you see them on the cameras on TV and they're all sort of, they are all sort of very, very sort of focussed, very, you know, sort of (inaudible) but they know what they want and they can explain it, they are articulate. I mean, he's a, sort of an academic sort of medic, so, you know, it's sort of a competitive field where you compete for grants and staff and all that sort of thing, so you need to know what you're doing, you need to be sort of fairly on the ball and that's just how he is, I mean, it's just, if he's got a project, he's sort of very focussed and sort of fairly, fairly driven. Erm, but, absolutely, sort of great parents. I mean, most of my memory from Italy is of sort of, you know, I think, I think Madeleine may have had quite a bit of attention when she was younger. She was mostly in and out of sort of the apartment, didn't see much of her there. I saw more of Gerry when we were playing sort of football and things. But, yeah, you know, just a normal. I mean, he'd done quite a lot of sports, erm, on a Wednesday night particularly and when we went to the bar after we spent a lot of time talking about sort of, you know, could it have been slightly different could I have been a professional footballer, you know, this is how, I enjoyed it and how far I got and we talked about sort of what I'd done and there was quite a lot in common, erm, in common with that. Erm, Kate sort of initially was much sort of quieter but when you sort of talked to her she's, erm, sort of just friendly and sort of warm and just a normal person".
-----------------------------------------

Well, quite a lot to chew on here.

Remember, he's just been asked an open question about how he found K and G. His first response is that they are "similar sort of people". He does not qualify that so we are left wondering:  similar to each other, similar to him, similar to any or all of the other group members??

He then moves from the personal and  launches into a defence of their parenting skills and asserts they had nothing to do "with this". He does not qualify "this"

He next asserts that they were "appropriate". This is a catch-all, cover-any-eventuality word. Often used in conjunction with sexual misconduct at tribunals, for instance.

He continues "well, we're all medics so you've got that in common anyway." I find that snippet fascinating. It's as if he has run out of steam with a less than ringing endorsement of K and G. The bottom line seems to be they share the same profession. Also he changes the pronoun "we're all" to "so you've got"  something in common (= distancing. Thanks Hobs). The "anyway" strengthens the impression that their profession is all they really do have in common. Or maybe that is the impression he wishes to convey.

He then invites one to view the Mcs through the lens of a camera. "you see them on the cameras on TV" . This further feeds the impression of distancing himself as well as underlining all the unflattering aspects of their determined and focussed public personae. "They know what they want" he says.

Notice he hasn't yet mentioned either of them by name. He now talks specifically and at some length about G being competitive but still does not refer to him by name. He then defaults to defence mode again and says they are "great parents". He seems to want to qualify this non sequitur and suddenly mentions Italy where he says he thinks MM may have had quite bit of attention when she was younger. He is not relating first hand experience of their parenting it seems, as he uses "I think she may have had etc...." He reinforces this by mentioning MM was mostly in and out of the apartment and he didn't see much of her there (ie Italy). He now mentions Gerry by name for the first time and says he saw more of him when playing football "and things". He doesn't say what things. He follows with "yeah just a normal, I mean," He doesn't tell us in what respect he is using this word normal. He then talks of G doing quite lot of sports, "on a Wednesday night particularly". It is entirely unclear from this dotting around of time and location whether he is still talking about Italy. It is the impression given but weren't they in Italy for the wedding of FP and DP? If so there were surely not enough Wednesdays to make this assertion : "on a Wednesday particularly", nor indeed is this the case at PdL. So is he talking about Wednesdays at home in the UK? And if so, why would MO know/remember a detail like this from someone he seems not to know particularly. He now confides that he has spent "a lot of time" talking with GM in a bar - where or when this was is helpfully not pursued by Officer 4078 - and he continues, letting us into the secret of GM's unfulfilled ambition of being a footballer - he now speaks as Gerry's (first person) voice, saying: " could it have been slightly different, could I have been a professional footballer .... this is how much I enjoyed it and how far I got...."

This comes over to me as a mimic, getting a bit of irritation of GM's boasting out of his system. Remember, MO goes from referring to GM as "he" from the off. As soon as he gets a specific memory of Italy and the football he mentions him by name for the very first time. He now recaps the conversation they shared at the so far unspecified bar where he plays the part of GM in relaying what he said.

Finally he mentions Kate in his very last sentence:  Erm, Kate sort of initially was much sort of quieter but when you sort of talked to her she's, erm, sort of just friendly and sort of warm and just a normal person" (Warm is close)

MO is now asked by 4078 about MM and he talks briefly of playing Monsters and chasing games etc.

Then this caught my attention:

4078 "And you said the Wednesday you stayed later and you went for a drink after the meal at the Tapas?"

Reply "Yeah, we might have had one, erm, so about sort of half an hour or so later that we went back. But the reason, now we mention it, but I think that was on the Thursday, when we went to the table, I didn't sit next to Gerry, because we had this conversation, he said, you know, he'd bored the pants off me yesterday when we were talking about his sports (inaudible)".

4078 "Right".

Reply "I don't know why I brought that up, I don't know, it seemed to be sort of part of my thought".
------------------------------

I find this fascinating. Sounds like a brush off by GM. MO is alluding again to his previously floated idea of the sports conversation which has now gained a location (PdL) - albeit Wed unaccountably morphs into Thurs - and he offers it up as a reason GM didn't think he should sit next to him - "bored the pants off (you)" is the phrase he says GM uses. Then comes this odd  comment from MO: "I don't know why I brought that up"   Self -editing failure, as a guess. Hiding/obfuscating can be extremely stressful

Wed 2nd is the day no one talks about. But here is a real insight into some dynamics by that evening. And this follows MO leaving his sick wife and child earlier in the day - a child she might not have been able to take care of adequately if she had been throwing up or having diarrhoea. Yet it suddenly strikes him that this is a good time to accompany KH on an 8 mile round run up to the "erm junct" - outer environs of PdL and back. By coincidence both are suitably clad. So he agrees to go on this reckonable run (for a novice) at lunchtime even though he does not like running. I can just imagine GM waving them off and saying "Have a great time, you two! Don't worry about the childcare issues." - can't you?

So Officer 4078 bestirs herself at this point just long enough to say"Right" to this exemplar of deep confusion. No attempt to tease out the specifics of temporal lacunae. Just "Right"  Weepworthy isn't it? It makes you think what a shame it was that one of the interview recordings didn't work.

Now I do not have the Sword of Truth (the bewk) to hand but I would like to slot the episode of KM sleeping in the children's room into this clearing mist. She says herself that GM walked off without her to go to bed. I've forgotten what night she said that was.

____________________
Kate McCann: "It's too 'ot. Give 'im a minute."

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by petunia on 14.03.14 20:36

Excellent post Mirage.After reading your post I would say his mouth is speaking but it's not what his mind is really thinking' and what on earth is a sort of good parent?your either a good parent or your not  good parent.

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