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Wednesday 2nd of May

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Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by tigger on 24.04.12 8:54

The 2nd of May: I’ve snipped quite a lot, leaving the salient points Dr. Roberts makes.

Wednesday 2nd May 2007

By Dr Martin Roberts
05 August 2011


THIRTY DAYS


"Wednesday, 2 May, 2007. Our last completely happy day. Our last, to date, as a family of five." (Kate McCann in 'Madeleine' p.59).

The sentence quoted above is followed by two short paragraphs. And that's it. Heralded as a major event, Wednesday 2 May proves, in fact, to be something of a non-event.

"Gerry and I picked up the children, had lunch in the apartment and then took them to the play area for an hour before walking them to their clubs." (p.60). Tennis was rescheduled. "After that it was the usual routine: tea with the children, playtime, bath time, milk, stories, kids' bedtime, get ready, Tapas at 8.30 p.m."

And that, dear reader, is the extent of the family experience on Wednesday 2 May.

Some might consider an interval of several years adequate justification for poor recall, but such justification cannot apply to an interval of only one week! Here's what Gerry McCann had to say to Portuguese investigators on 10 May, 2007. Notice how Wednesday daytime fails to merit a mention:

"Concerning the routine, on Tuesday there was a slight change given that after lunch, at 13H30, the deponent and KATE decided to take the three children to Praia da Luz, having gone on foot, taking only the twins in baby buggies. They all left by the main door because of the buggies, went around to the right, down the street of the "BATISTA" supermarket and went to the beach along a road directly ahead.

"They were at the beach for about 20 minutes...

"On the day that MADELEINE disappeared, Thursday, 3 May 2007, they all woke up at the same time, between 07H30 and 08H00. When they were having breakfast, MADELEINE addressed her mother and asked her "why didn't you come last night when SEAN and I were crying?"

"On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, apart from the deponent and his wife, he thinks that DAVID PAYNE also went to his apartment to check that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children...

"He cannot say exactly, but he thinks that on Monday or Tuesday MADELEINE had slept for some time in his bedroom, with KATE, as she had told him that one or both twins were crying, making much noise.

"Back to Thursday..."

Back to Thursday. Without ever having visited Wednesday, either on the 10th or the week previously (the 4th), although Kate manages to mention it, just, during her earliest interview:

"Apart from that, on Wednesday or Thursday, Madeleine and the other children went sailing at the beach...

Not only are Wednesday and Thursday evidently interchangeable but, in terms of Madeleine's known whereabouts, that was a matter for resort staff, as neither Kate nor Gerry was present during the organised activity. (Gerry makes a comparable observation in his own 4 May statement).

The McCanns' 'last completely happy day' appears to have been dropped from the calendar, whilst confirmation of Madeleine's presence rests squarely with Mark Warner nannies. There are the creche registers of course (well, they exist at least), and the occasional 'sightings' by third parties.

According to Nanny Cat Baker's 10 May responses to Portuguese police inquiries, Madeleine should have been with her at the beach on Tuesday, Wednesday [15.30 - 16.30] AND Thursday [10.00 - 11.00] when she had a boat trip - at the same time as Jane Tanner is supposed, by Rachael Oldfield, to have taken her photograph while engaged in mini-tennis - which she did not do according to Russell O'Brien.
But we are more concerned with the Wednesday. As was Dianne Webster:

Reply "Err so from what I can recall, the last time I would have seen Madeleine would have been the Wednesday at the high tea probably."
Use of the conditional + 'probably' does not mean it happened.

As far as the McCanns were concerned, May 2007 consisted of thirty recorded days. But surely even two paragraphs from Kate justify recognising the full thirty-one? Well, if you insist. But, in terms of diurnal activity, the result is the same. Monday isn't accounted for either - neither in their statements, nor the book.

Between two deleted days therefore we have a duplicate visit to the beach and, from Wednesday evening through Thursday, a succession of questionable 'checks' and 'sightings.' It's just as well we have the handful of photographs taken in Praia da Luz, including the 'last' one, or we might be tempted to question whether Madeleine was seen at all that week by anyone except her parents.

unquote

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by tigger on 24.04.12 9:02

Processos Vol I
Pages 200 - 204
Witness Statement
Derek Flack
Date:06/05/2007
Place: Portimao

He comes to the case as a witness following the events on the morning or early afternoon of 2nd or 3rd May (last Wednesday or Thursday) which might have a bearing on the present investigation.

Subsequently, during the late morning or early afternoon of either 2nd or 3rd May, not being certain which, the witness and his partner were out walking in the vicinity of their home.
At that time as they passed the residential block he noticed a light commercial vehicle, (in all respects similar to an Opel Corsa Van), white in colour but dirty, with only one side window in the sliding panel door, but he does not know the exact make, model or other identifying characteristics - including the number plate.
All things considered he judged it to be an old model.
When going down the [Rua Martins] he passed an individual standing on his left at the beginning of a path and at the entrance of a small car park opposite the reception of the resort.
At the point they passed the individual the witness saw him face-on because he [the man] was facing the opposite direction to which he [the witness] was walking, and appearing to be watching attentively movements [occurring] adjacent to the parked vehicle.
When asked, the witness said that he noticed the above because he had a high instinct for vigilance [observation, watchfulness] due to his participation where he lived in England in a neighbourhood-watch in which suspicious persons or movements were watched for and detected to maintain order, unlike his partner who detected nothing of such incidents.
Hence, he was aware that the man's attention was fixed on the area in question [adjacent to the van] in such a way that he [the man] was unaware of the witness’s presence.
Urged to describe the man, the witness said he was Caucasian, dark-skinned, medium stature, 1,70 to 1,75m tall, about 25 to 35 years old.
He added that the man had dark and thick hair but with no noticeable fringe [at the front].
Regarding [the man's] clothing he adds that he didn't observe this in detail, judging that [the man] wore a plain T-shirt, possibly yellow.
The witness wished to clarify that he was convinced that the man was not one of the many tourists who frequented that area, considering his features and physical appearance.
When asked, the witness said that, initially, he had associated the man with the van because [the man] had looked deliberately at the area around it.
Notwithstanding [the above], having learned of the disappearance of MBM on 3 May from inside one of the resort residences mentioned above, he linked the two and that was the reason he came forward to the police.

When asked to elaborate further he said that the van was situated close to the gateway on the side of the building which led to the veranda of the apartment in question [apartment 5A].
Hence, one could conclude that the man was monitoring the movements next to that gate and, possibly, of the interior of the apartment.
For the rest, he adds that after having reflected specifically on the incidents he concluded that it was the man's deliberate focus on the area in which the events that gave rise to the investigation occurred.
Urged to reveal details about the area around the van, the witness could not be certain if the vehicle was directly next to, slightly above or slightly below, the gateway.
However, he was certain that it was a very short distance from, and directly in the path of the gate.
Asked, aside from what he reported above, he did not recall having seen the man before in that vicinity or any other place, nor caught the slightest glimpse of him since the crime that victimised the minor Madeleine.
The witness is not sure if he would recognise him again in the event that they should meet.
Based on the above description image likeness [e-fit] #18/2007 is attached.
unquote

Although he is uncertain about the date and time I see this more as Flack trying to fit his sighting in with the supposed abduction.
Say he did see the man, I find his description of the van and the man perfectly believable. But Flack wants this to belong to the day Maddie disappears. Officially that is. So he tries to move the time and the date without losing the actual date and time he saw the man.
We end up with a composite which can't work.

I like the 2nd of May for moving the body. Dr. Roberts has commented on this day being one neither of the McCanns care to remember. Skipping over it in their early and later statements.

So the way I see it, Flack wanted his sighting to be on the 3rd as late as possible, but leaves the morning of the 2nd in play as well.

So is this time (late morning - early afternoon) at all compatible with the phone pings on that day? One would expect some activity?
And did the cleaner come that morning? Because I did read somewhere the cleaner was cancelled that day?

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by monkey mind on 24.04.12 12:20

Quote "Between two deleted days therefore we have a duplicate visit to the beach and, from Wednesday evening through Thursday, a succession of questionable 'checks' and 'sightings.' It's just as well we have the handful of photographs taken in Praia da Luz, including the 'last' one, or we might be tempted to question whether Madeleine was seen at all that week by anyone except her parents."

Exactly! And of course once again we are relying on the McCanns and their babbling incoherent friends for information as to when the photos were taken. The tennis court picture could have been taken absolutely anywhere at any time and the "last photo" by the pool only surfaced after GM had returned to England. This in itself must be regarded with a raisd eyebrow. Why, particularly when the only photo produced at the time was well out of date and next to no use to anyone. Now I realise there are question marks over the image itself but let us assume for one moment it is undoctored. Then why the delay in producing what should have been the first image of Maddie to be released to the world? Well because if it were a digital photo it would contain embedded information which if handed directly over to the police along with the instrument responsible for takin the picture, camera or phone, they would have been able to tell exactly when that picture was taken. If it had been taken on the first day instead of the last as claimed for instance then the PJ would have been fully aware of that, so before producing the most logical image, if it wasn't taken when you want peoople to think it was taken, then it is necessary to remove the embedded data - and if you can't do that, you'll need a man who can...

So as evidential support or proof as to Maddie's existance later during that week, they aren't worth the paper upon which they appear.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by sami on 24.04.12 12:38

Our beloved family dog, Stevie Gerrard, passed away suddenly one night a few years ago.

We had come back from a family day out and went to bed and he died.

Not comparable to loosing a child obviously, but I and indeed my children who are still very young, can recount in detail everything that poor old Stevie G did that day while we were out.

Indeed passing a honeysuckle plant sometime later, one of my children remarked that the smell of the plant reminded him of that day and the dog.

My point in this I suppose is that Kate's book should be full of detail about that Thursday and indeed Wednesday if it is what she considers their "last happy day". It should almost bore the reader to death in her recount of every single detail, which is important to her but of insignificance to us reading it. What she said, what she ate, what she did, saw, heard, smelt - everything.

When tragedy strikes the human brain has a great capacity to remind us of things we would not normally have remembered.

Kate never ever gives us anything even remotely personal to that time and the fondness people show when they talk about a loved one is never apparant, either from the book or on tv.

It is not possible to be unable to remember those last few days, unless of course she was not there.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by Miraflores on 24.04.12 12:51

I always assumed that the original photo was used because it clearly showed the coloboma (which they have now decided they didn't make much of). The supposed last photo, and the tennis girl photo don't show this clearly.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by HiDeHo on 24.04.12 12:57


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Sami and Monkeymind!

Post by tigger on 24.04.12 13:12

Thank you for that observation Sami. I would think anyone in comparable situations would remember every detail. The brain does something really weird in times of great emotion. My car hit a tree once, ice on the road, I was driving at walking pace and some idiot cut in front of me to park. The interior of the car became twice as large, I felt as if slamming into the tree was taking at least a minute instead of two seconds, I can now recall the interior of the car exactly, twenty years later.
The McCanns are skirting round the dangerous areas like the plague. The catchphrase 'family' makes it appearance a few times, but no details - nothing about Maddie, about whom we still know next to nothing.

What do you think about Derek Flack? I only just came across this, can image the PJ just filed it as useless, but I just feel he may be speaking the truth - but it was the second. Why mention that date at all otherwise?
If I think of it as a burglary - say my neighbor got burgled and I saw a suspicious fellow the previous day - I just might move the date, to make the story fit better. That doesn't have to mean I didn't see it.
It must come under Forensic behaviour rather than linguistics...

For me - if I can find evidence that the cleaner didn't come in on Wednesday - it rings true. A man and a van and possibly a large blue tennis bag?
The comment that the man was watching the interior of 5a - was he waiting for someone to come out?
I'd be interested to see that 'image likeness'. Mediterranean type person, shortish, would fit with my theories.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by tigger on 24.04.12 13:18

@Miraflores wrote:I always assumed that the original photo was used because it clearly showed the coloboma (which they have now decided they didn't make much of). The supposed last photo, and the tennis girl photo don't show this clearly.

I've always assumed that the coloboma, which I didn't believe long before they came clean, was a very useful marketing ploy.
1) they need not travel all over the place to verify whether a child was Maddie or not (likely to be thousands at the start)
2) it was a tremendous 'unique selling point' in marketing terms (they even tried to get Google to use their OO's)
3) IMO it was dropped because four years later, after the debacle of their entire plan, they desperately needed sightings to keep those who still believed them interested and to keep their headlines in the tabloids.

The photograph used with the coloboma added - was a masterstroke, which leads me to suspect planning and marketing advice. USP - the first thing hammered into you when you start a business. Besides, do you have a photograph of your child 18 months earlier still on your camera? Shouldn't that camera then have many hundreds of photographs on it taken between that time and the holiday?

It's as well to remember when discussing this case that we are not dealing with 'ordinary' people. I'm sure they'd agree - but no for the same reasons.

But I'm now derailing my topic flag

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by monkey mind on 24.04.12 13:27

Quote: "I like the 2nd of May for moving the body. Dr. Roberts has commented on this day being one neither of the McCanns care to remember. Skipping over it in their early and later statements"

Hi Tigger, yes, the signs do point to a flurry of activity on that day but I hav problems with that being the day the body was moved. Firstly, one would expect such a day to be close to the time of demise and as such would likely then be the 1st/2nd. We then have to account for Maddie's alleged creche attendance on the 2nd and 3rd, or more importantly, G and K would have had to account for that and it leaves very little time to do so and necessarily embraces a great deal of uncertainty. It also would eliminate any idea of a sub of course, a notion that many have difficulty with.

I favour the 30th, next to no mention of this day either in her book or diary. This allows for a sub from the very start and hence little problem painting an alleged attendance at the creche that week. It then allows almost an entire week to tidy up before painting a new scenario and time frame whereby the movement of G and K at the apparent critical time can be accounted for, alibied - and therefore next to impossible to point the finger at them. Unfortunately for them, they created a scenario where it was also next to impossible to point the finger at anyone else either!

I think many people have a problem with something happening at the begining of the week and a sub because it removes 'accident' from the equation and replaces it with cold blooded premeditation. I don't have a problem with that as it has been demonstrated to me first hand over and again that the world is fullof people capable of such. The fact is, there does appear to be something very wrong with those creche records, no doubt on that. They, along with one or two other factors need some serious explaining.

I agree though, the lack of accounting of movement on the 2nd is suspicious. It isn't inconceivable I suppose that for some reason a body may have to be moved twice, so long as all was clear by the third that's all that matters.....

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Post by tigger on 24.04.12 13:28

Thanks!
I have a vision of your living room: banks of computers humming away, filing cabinets, children playing in one corner, dog in another ... piles of papers and files on the dining table, one wall given over to photographs and notes.... roses

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by HiDeHo on 24.04.12 13:35

@tigger wrote:

For me - if I can find evidence that the cleaner didn't come in on Wednesday - it rings true.



Maria Julia the cleaner claims to have been there on Wednesday. See 6.00 mins in the video

Praia da Luz Crisis - 5A Cleaner Describes Meeting McCanns


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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by monkey mind on 24.04.12 13:40

Apologies, didn't mean to stray off topic with my mention of the photos, was simply commenting on the observations of Dr Roberts in the OP and that removal of embedded data renders them useless as to proof that she was there at the end of the week, or anytime other than the first day for that matter. I'll leae that for now.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by tigger on 24.04.12 14:00

HideHo wrote: Maria Julia the cleaner claims to have been there on Wednesday. See 6.00 mins in the video. Unquote

I've just watched it - now the mother is talking about the 2nd when she came in and all she said is 'they were there'. It's not clear whether this is with or without children.
I'm guessing without. They went out via the patio doors via the balcony.
On the previous Sunday - late morning I believe, another cleaner (her daughter?) said she saw the three children with their distinctive shoes with little pink lights on the side, carrying plates.
We do not have a time for when the cleaner came to the apartment - not on Sunday or on the Wednesday.

We are given late morning, early afternoon by Derek Flack for when he sees the man and the old Opel Van.
It can't have been e.g. the people who showed Kate how to use the washing machine and to repair the shutters, because that happened earlier in the week.
(Why we needed to know that, I have no idea but it's in the book and the rogatories).

So to recap on the 2nd, we do have a cleaner, we have a putative sighting of a man and a van and we have radio silence on all events from the McCanns.



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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by Nina on 24.04.12 14:11

@sami wrote:Our beloved family dog, Stevie Gerrard, passed away suddenly one night a few years ago.

We had come back from a family day out and went to bed and he died.

Not comparable to loosing a child obviously, but I and indeed my children who are still very young, can recount in detail everything that poor old Stevie G did that day while we were out.

Indeed passing a honeysuckle plant sometime later, one of my children remarked that the smell of the plant reminded him of that day and the dog.

My point in this I suppose is that Kate's book should be full of detail about that Thursday and indeed Wednesday if it is what she considers their "last happy day". It should almost bore the reader to death in her recount of every single detail, which is important to her but of insignificance to us reading it. What she said, what she ate, what she did, saw, heard, smelt - everything.

When tragedy strikes the human brain has a great capacity to remind us of things we would not normally have remembered.

Kate never ever gives us anything even remotely personal to that time and the fondness people show when they talk about a loved one is never apparant, either from the book or on tv.

It is not possible to be unable to remember those last few days, unless of course she was not there.

Sami. I know just what you mean, our beloved old boy died on monday of this week and the grief is unbearable, with tears just forcing themselves through without warning. And yes I remember every detail of his last days with us, right down to his choice of ginger nut biscuit from his daily treat tin.And as you say we could go on and do to our nearest and dearest, or anyone prepared to listen, because it helps us to cope with the heartache.
Don't know if you are a male or female Sami, but nevertherless send you a cyber hug empathy

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by sami on 24.04.12 14:31

@tigger wrote:Thank you for that observation Sami. I would think anyone in comparable situations would remember every detail. The brain does something really weird in times of great emotion. My car hit a tree once, ice on the road, I was driving at walking pace and some idiot cut in front of me to park. The interior of the car became twice as large, I felt as if slamming into the tree was taking at least a minute instead of two seconds, I can now recall the interior of the car exactly, twenty years later.
The McCanns are skirting round the dangerous areas like the plague. The catchphrase 'family' makes it appearance a few times, but no details - nothing about Maddie, about whom we still know next to nothing.

What do you think about Derek Flack? I only just came across this, can image the PJ just filed it as useless, but I just feel he may be speaking the truth - but it was the second. Why mention that date at all otherwise?
If I think of it as a burglary - say my neighbor got burgled and I saw a suspicious fellow the previous day - I just might move the date, to make the story fit better. That doesn't have to mean I didn't see it.
It must come under Forensic behaviour rather than linguistics...

For me - if I can find evidence that the cleaner didn't come in on Wednesday - it rings true. A man and a van and possibly a large blue tennis bag?
The comment that the man was watching the interior of 5a - was he waiting for someone to come out?
I'd be interested to see that 'image likeness'. Mediterranean type person, shortish, would fit with my theories.


Hi Tigger. I need to read about Derek Flack in detail when I get some quiet time tonight, it is definately worth considering though.

Wednesday and Thursday are both problematic days for me.

Personally I would consider Thursday the last happy day. I know technically they did not have 24 hours of that day together but for me anyway the day would be from getting up am to the children going to bed pm. That is the family part of the day. That really is the last time they were all a family. Not Wednesday ? Perhaps I am being overly picky at Kate's words but it niggles me.

Then on Thursday they were very detached from the group.

I suppose I am open to something happening any day because I hold no regard at all for the creche records. Quite apart from the obvious strange entries etc., I know how these places work. I think firstly by calling it a creche there is an image of it being a professional child care facility in the fashion we are used to using at home whilst both parents work. Really, it is nothing more than a kids club for small children. This holiday was a week in duration. Were we talking about a disappearance at the end of a two week holiday, perhaps and I say perhaps I would have a little confidence in the staff knowing or recognising the children. A couple of days into the week, no way.

Kids come and go, arrive late, leave early at these sort of clubs. Families are on holiday, it is not a regemented educational facility. It should be lax and they are very often lax in my experience. People travelling with friends would usually take it in turns to drop each others children in or out of them. None of this is proof of anything I know, but it is real life and we have no reason to think the facilities in PDL at that time were run any differently to the kids clubs I see in operation when I go on holiday with my children. Even waking up to be there bang on time each and every day is a feat in itself. I know my family would never manage that. So people will wander in and out and I honestly do not think the staff would take too much notice. It is a step above the kids drop in facilities at shopping centres.

So for those reasons alone, simple real life experiences, I do not believe the childcare workers or the records are reliable when it comes to them showing us Madeleine was around.

The fact is only her parents and the rest of their group can vouch for her whereabouts. If we say she was missing from Wednesday, then those who say they saw her would only have "known" her for three days. We cannot really count the arrival day. There was nothing about Madeleine that would have made her different to most of the other small girls. She did not have curly hair, she did not have red hair, she did not wear glasses for example. So no way would people instantly recognise her or even know her to talk to after three days. Small, blond and pink. That would be most people's impression of your usual four year old girl.

Will read what Mr Flack has to say and he might make things clearer.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by HiDeHo on 24.04.12 14:42

@tigger wrote:Thanks!
I have a vision of your living room: banks of computers humming away, filing cabinets, children playing in one corner, dog in another ... piles of papers and files on the dining table, one wall given over to photographs and notes....



The computers are no longer humming and fortunately the filing cabinets only contain business and personal papers. I'll admit to hoarding some very precious (to me) papers and items dating back to my school days including my pencil case from 1964 with 'I love Laurie' written on it and a pair of platform shoes from 1971 which were groovy at the time and still wearable today! MOST precious is a letter, written to my daughter by my mum in 1987 (when she was two) which I promised to read at her wedding....lost for 10 years but I finally found it last week tucked between my grandfathers birth certificate and a 'Playgirl' pin up! (remember those from 1979?)

Fortunately, all the data about Madeleine is on my computer and my brain is the filing system, though as of a week ago I was down to 5% space on my hard drive!

Time to get a new computer and add this one to the collection in the cupboard!

You are right though...there is not much that I haven't managed to save over the last nearly 5 years...I've probably got it somewhere!

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by aiyoyo on 24.04.12 14:46

@tigger wrote:
@Miraflores wrote:I always assumed that the original photo was used because it clearly showed the coloboma (which they have now decided they didn't make much of). The supposed last photo, and the tennis girl photo don't show this clearly.

I've always assumed that the coloboma, which I didn't believe long before they came clean, was a very useful marketing ploy.
1) they need not travel all over the place to verify whether a child was Maddie or not (likely to be thousands at the start)
2) it was a tremendous 'unique selling point' in marketing terms (they even tried to get Google to use their OO's)
3) IMO it was dropped because four years later, after the debacle of their entire plan, they desperately needed sightings to keep those who still believed them interested and to keep their headlines in the tabloids.

The photograph used with the coloboma added - was a masterstroke, which leads me to suspect planning and marketing advice. USP - the first thing hammered into you when you start a business. Besides, do you have a photograph of your child 18 months earlier still on your camera? Shouldn't that camera then have many hundreds of photographs on it taken between that time and the holiday?

It's as well to remember when discussing this case that we are not dealing with 'ordinary' people. I'm sure they'd agree - but no for the same reasons.

But I'm now derailing my topic flag

I beg to differ with you Tigger.
My sense of reasoning tells me Maddie did have a coloboma, a faint tiny fleck noitceable only at close range, which is why the mccanns were obliged to tell the PJ very early on, in case the PJ found out through their own means.

In retrospect, now that they know Maddie's medical records were denied, kate decides to down play this for obvious reason.
A fair skin, blond little girl, is nearly 10 a penny figuratively speaking in European country, and indistinguishable one from another unless you know the child. Therefore, easy to keep the sightings coming in or to fabricate the sightings, but not easy to do that if the child has a distinctive coloboma.

The coloboma which they highlighted in the beginning as a marketing ploy was later changed when they realised it wasn't so brilliant after all and in fact could scrupper their plan.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by aiyoyo on 24.04.12 14:49

@HiDeHo wrote:
@tigger wrote:Thanks!
I have a vision of your living room: banks of computers humming away, filing cabinets, children playing in one corner, dog in another ... piles of papers and files on the dining table, one wall given over to photographs and notes....



The computers are no longer humming and fortunately the filing cabinets only contain business and personal papers. I'll admit to hoarding some very precious (to me) papers and items dating back to my school days including my pencil case from 1964 with 'I love Laurie' written on it and a pair of platform shoes from 1971 which were groovy at the time and still wearable today! MOST precious is a letter, written to my daughter by my mum in 1987 (when she was two) which I promised to read at her wedding....lost for 10 years but I finally found it last week tucked between my grandfathers birth certificate and a 'Playgirl' pin up! (remember those from 1979?)

Fortunately, all the data about Madeleine is on my computer and my brain is the filing system, though as of a week ago I was down to 5% space on my hard drive!

Time to get a new computer and add this one to the collection in the cupboard!

You are right though...there is not much that I haven't managed to save over the last nearly 5 years...I've probably got it somewhere!

You are a priceless treasure HDH!

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by tigger on 24.04.12 14:54

Aiyoyo, a tiny fleck - as is barely evident in some 'undoctored' photographs, is NOT a coloboma but simply a tiny fleck.

Therefore the coloboma, which is a feature hard to miss, was an outright lie. I knew it was fake long before the Piers Morgan interview, because it changed shape and position in various photographs, both impossible.

Curiously, the different colour of each eye isn't really evident in photographs either. I seem to remember that Kate said that she was born with 'big brown eyes' - in the bewk there's no mention of the coloboma, I believe, certainly not when she was born.

P.S. It looks as if we do agree apart from the fleck/coloboma. The medical records - for all the PJ would know - would perhaps not be obliged to note this - even if they'd had access to these it would not be significant.
In any case, the description given on the 4th of May included it. The photographs shouted it. The PJ would assume that the parents and the photographs did not lie. If it were not in the medical records, that could be explained, but that never happened.

As to 'scuppering' their plan. IMO it was never their plan to drop it. It wasn't their plan to still be giving the same interview, living in Rothley Towers, a diminishing Fund, ever more apathy from the tabloid readers.
IMO they should have given up their jobs, Gerry as MP/ambassador for Amber Alert Europe, Kate on the board of Children's Charities (think Mrs. Meyer - ambassadors' wife- paid herself almost the same as the contributions) .
The coloboma could have carried on indefinitely.
It's because it all went wrong and sightings are needed to help fill the coffers.











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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by sami on 24.04.12 14:55

@Nina wrote:
@sami wrote:Our beloved family dog, Stevie Gerrard, passed away suddenly one night a few years ago.

We had come back from a family day out and went to bed and he died.

Not comparable to loosing a child obviously, but I and indeed my children who are still very young, can recount in detail everything that poor old Stevie G did that day while we were out.

Indeed passing a honeysuckle plant sometime later, one of my children remarked that the smell of the plant reminded him of that day and the dog.

My point in this I suppose is that Kate's book should be full of detail about that Thursday and indeed Wednesday if it is what she considers their "last happy day". It should almost bore the reader to death in her recount of every single detail, which is important to her but of insignificance to us reading it. What she said, what she ate, what she did, saw, heard, smelt - everything.

When tragedy strikes the human brain has a great capacity to remind us of things we would not normally have remembered.

Kate never ever gives us anything even remotely personal to that time and the fondness people show when they talk about a loved one is never apparant, either from the book or on tv.

It is not possible to be unable to remember those last few days, unless of course she was not there.

Sami. I know just what you mean, our beloved old boy died on monday of this week and the grief is unbearable, with tears just forcing themselves through without warning. And yes I remember every detail of his last days with us, right down to his choice of ginger nut biscuit from his daily treat tin.And as you say we could go on and do to our nearest and dearest, or anyone prepared to listen, because it helps us to cope with the heartache.
Don't know if you are a male or female Sami, but nevertherless send you a cyber hug


Nina, I am so sorry to hear of your loss. All I can say is, as with everything, it will get easier and then you will be so glad to have all of those happy memories.
We eventually got another best friend who is now the life and soul of the family, but he has not and never will replace Stevie.
I am female, but big hugs to you too and I hope you start to feel better soon.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by russiandoll on 24.04.12 15:09

the coloboma is not mentioned in the book at all.
her child's most distinguishing physical feature, even if demoted to a fleck, surely would be mentioned? especially given its role in the look campaign...

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by aiyoyo on 24.04.12 15:13

Oh, forgot to say, I did find it strange Kate made absolutely no mention of Maddie's past at all in her bewk, as if Maddie had no history.
You would think a proud mum would at least remember everything about her child, especially a lost child makes everything poignant -- her school, mates , friends, best friend, her likes and dislikes, hobbies, favourite food, events, outings, etc etc.

Also, you would think in time like this, any parent would have mentioned and thanked Maddie's friends who asked, talked, remembered, or shared about Maddie, but NO, zilch, nothing. Kate tells us nothing about Maddie's friends as if she has none or she didnt attend school.
How strange that kate heard nothing from Maddie's friends or parents of her friends, to commiserate with mccanns or to show concern over Maddie's plight! Those are things a normal mum would talk and write about, and go on and on about until people get sicked and tired of hearing it.

Kate told us nothing about Maddie at all, other than "she's lovely". An inanimate thing or an abstract thing can also be lovely.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by sami on 24.04.12 15:21

@aiyoyo wrote:Oh, forgot to say, I did find it strange Kate made absolutely no mention of Maddie's past at all in her bewk, as if Maddie had no history.
You would think a proud mum would at least remember everything about her child, especially a lost child makes everything poignant -- her school, mates , friends, best friend, her likes and dislikes, hobbies, favourite food, events, outings, etc etc.

Also, you would think in time like this, any parent would have mentioned and thanked Maddie's friends who asked, talked, remembered, or shared about Maddie, but NO, zilch, nothing. Kate tells us nothing about Maddie's friends as if she has none or she didnt attend school.
How strange that kate heard nothing from Maddie's friends or parents of her friends, to commiserate with mccanns or to show concern over Maddie's plight! Those are things a normal mum would talk and write about, and go on and on about until people get sicked and tired of hearing it.

Kate told us nothing about Maddie at all, other than "she's lovely". An inanimate thing or an abstract thing can also be lovely.


Aiyoyo, she did mention one friend, i think the little girl shared the same bith date as Madeleine and they had a party planned for when they got back.

Not that I am at all disagreeing with your post, you are right in what you say, but there was one small mention of that friend.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by aiyoyo on 24.04.12 15:35

@tigger wrote:Aiyoyo, a tiny fleck - as is barely evident in some 'undoctored' photographs, is NOT a coloboma but simply a tiny fleck.

That was exactly it - a tiny barely noticeable fleck and NOT a coloboma!
I don't believe mccanns ever say publicly that she has a coloboma. They mentioned it was a tiny fleck.
The coloboma was originated or attributed to her by police or posters whatever IIRC.
It was a misconception that the fleck kate mentioned could be coloboma. Did the tabloid ever report it as a "coloboma"?
Far as I know mccanns never use the word coloboma. In short the word didnt originate from her.

This was extensively discussed during the 3As days and people were divided over who first apply the "coloboma" word. IIRC, a poster came up with it because it was thought that perhaps the tiny fleck kate mentioned was in fact a birth defect and the health conditions associated to that defect were also debated. I remember reading discussions that a child with that condition needs some kind of special care and since the Maddie did not appeal to her captor to watch out for her special needs, there was a camp that argues it couldnt have been that.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd of May

Post by Guest on 24.04.12 15:40

@aiyoyo wrote:I don't believe mccanns ever say publicly that she has a coloboma. They mentioned it was a tiny fleck.
The coloboma was originated or attributed to her by police or posters whatever IIRC.
It was a misconception that the fleck kate mentioned could be coloboma. Did the tabloid ever report it as a "coloboma"?
Far as I know mccanns never use the word coloboma. In short the word didnt originate from her.

G. MCCANN: Certainly believe it wouldn't have changed. I think there's been a pattern to be still there. That it's -- the technical term is coloboma, where there's a defect in the iris. I don't think it is actually. I think it's actually an additional bit of color. She certainly had no visual problems.

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3214-why-have-the-mccanns-lied-about-maddie-s-coloboma-for-4-years?highlight=coloboma


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