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Re: On it goes...

Post by Autumn on 28.02.10 3:50

@bunny wrote:Autumn, I would hope that you will be also posting that same message then to other posters who post comments about the blue bag and Madeleines head hanging out of it? and also the author of the post above that Vaguely posted.

E.T.A. Justagrannynow answered my post, clearly concisely and didnt take offense or feel the need to moderate either. She responded with her opinion politely and knew full well I was not being provacative...thus the need for no moderation. I saw that as even handed and fair. However, your moderation seems to be a little one sided. Maybe a pm would be in order Autumn?

I think you are confusing my post with Marigolds about not wanting to post here.

Thanks

Bunny, why would I confuse your post with Marigold's? I totally understand Marigold's revulsion at your post and and am still awaiting an explanation for your comments. If you feel that my moderation is one-sided that is probably because it is - I am on the side of the people who find your vile post offensive. In answer to your query, yes I will be contacting Jill about this matter.

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Re: On it goes...

Post by Autumn on 28.02.10 4:51

@marigold wrote:You should all be ashamed of yourselves, you are all a disgrace. Only Twinkle accepted how offensive it is to write that any poster here wishes Madeleine were dead. That is such a hate filled remark hiding behind a 'only being honest' excuse. The fact that you all, with the exception of Twinkle, thought it acceptable says it all.
Yes, I think the parents are involved as do thousands of others, including both Portugese and British police. Yes, she was neglected night after night. This isn't hatred it's an opinion. But for you to stoop so low as to declare that I and others wish a child dead for holding that view is so contemptible and vile that I really think I will have to leave you to your hate filled little world and find a forum where sickening remarks like this are not ignored.

Marigold, totally agree and consider bunny's post to be amonst the worst I have read on any forum. I, too, am sickened that others, with the exception of Twinkle, find bunny's disgraceful comments acceptable and am seriously concerned as to what this forum is turning into.
This is no longer a pleasant forum and, feel saddened that decent members are having to tolerate snide and often vicious attacks from some of the new members. Clearly, judging by recent posts, it would appear that this forum has been infiltrated by hardened McCann supporters who, far from caring about what happened to Madeleine, are here with the sole purpose of protecting the neglectful parents.
Given that Tony Bennett regularly posts on this forum, perhaps we should all be cautious regarding the motives of some of the members - as Tony has stated on the Foundation section, Carter Ruck are aware of what is posted here. Perhaps those of us who disbelieve the McCanns are being provoked into posting someting that may be of use to CR.
I will be raising concerns about the forum with Jill as, clearly, there are people here who have no respect for others and care only about causing trouble and disruption.

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Re: On it goes...

Post by Kololi on 28.02.10 8:07

@Autumn wrote:Iynx, you cannot state with certainty that nobody, except the perpetrators, know what happened to Madeleine and if she is alive or not. I think others in the group may well know what happened to her but, for whatever reasons, have refused to say.

Autumn this is your opinion only that you cannot state with certainty because you were not there, did not see what happened, nobody has confessed to what you state above and there has been no criminal trial that has concluded in favour of your theory.

Equally, those that would strongly disagree with your opinion or theory cannot state with certainty that you are wrong and their opinion is right for the same reasons.

Inyx is right however, it is only the perpetrators that know what happened - now if those perpetrators turn out to be people with the group that Madeleine was travelling with then your theory might eventually be proven to be right. I have a sneaking suspicion though we will never find out whose theory is right unfortunately.

Take care

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Re: On it goes...

Post by vaguely1 on 28.02.10 8:12

@marigold wrote:
@bunny wrote:Imo Kololi, I think its more about wishing her dead. Not you but others.

That is an utterly disgraceful thing to say.



It seems that wishing her alive is considered disgraceful by some as well.


At least there's some common ground there.

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Re: On it goes...

Post by Kololi on 28.02.10 8:26

Autumn wrote:

"I will be raising concerns about the forum with Jill as, clearly, there are people here who have no respect for others and care only about causing trouble and disruption."

Hi Autumn
I truly do hope that you raise your concerns with Jill because I believe that Jill will give you the reassurance that you need that probably favours that there has been a total over reaction to the post in question in the first place.

People have no right to cause trouble as you say, but equally, I think as posters, we all have a duty to not get too offended simply because somebody has an opinion that differs from our own.

Take care

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Re: On it goes...

Post by justagrannynow 1 on 28.02.10 9:02

I have re read this thread from page 8 several times and have to say that, the way I read it, the remark by bunny was a general comment about certain posters/bloggers etc on the internet, not a personal attack on any member here. Although it is a shocking statement, I do believe it is true.
We have recently witnessed the appalling attacks on Jill, carried out by posters on other forums who used the terminal illness of Jills mother to hurt her, and I will never forget that dreadful post on this forum when the former admin of Sangfroid, even with the benefit of hindsight, could admit to trawling the internet for weeks to find a suitable fatal traffic accident which could be used to play a joke on the pitchforkers.
Unfortunately there are some people who, for whatever reason are prepared to use anything to achieve their objectives. Banning the discussion of such tactics would, IMO be akin to sticking ones head in the sand. As long as such discussions are confined to genuine opinions and do not become personal attacks on the posters, I am prepared to allow them to stand, no matter how personally upsetting I find them, or how vehemently I disagree with them.
It all comes down to respect for other members. One persons myth is another persons opinion because none of us can supply proof of anything very much. Even the PJ files, useful though they are, have the " what about the unpublished ones" as a sort of get out clause.

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Re: On it goes...

Post by Kololi on 28.02.10 9:17

Hi Justagran
It's reassuring to see a fair and commonsensical approach being applied.

flower

Take care

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Re: On it goes...

Post by vaguely1 on 28.02.10 9:23

GRAN: I have re read this thread from page 8 several times and have to say that, the way I read it, the remark by bunny was a general comment about certain posters/bloggers etc on the internet, not a personal attack on any member here. Although it is a shocking statement, I do believe it is true.


Well said Gran. I don't think Bunny can be held responsible for Marigold thinking the post might have been aimed at someone in particular. It was a very generic comment.

It's nice to know there's a voice of reason around when emotions get a little high.

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Re: On it goes...

Post by Cath on 28.02.10 9:46

@Kololi wrote:
@Autumn wrote:Iynx, you cannot state with certainty that nobody, except the perpetrators, know what happened to Madeleine and if she is alive or not. I think others in the group may well know what happened to her but, for whatever reasons, have refused to say.

Autumn this is your opinion only that you cannot state with certainty because you were not there, did not see what happened, nobody has confessed to what you state above and there has been no criminal trial that has concluded in favour of your theory.

Equally, those that would strongly disagree with your opinion or theory cannot state with certainty that you are wrong and their opinion is right for the same reasons.

Inyx is right however, it is only the perpetrators that know what happened - now if those perpetrators turn out to be people with the group that Madeleine was travelling with then your theory might eventually be proven to be right. I have a sneaking suspicion though we will never find out whose theory is right unfortunately.

Take care

Thank you Kololi, Exactly my thoughts (except I can't make up my mind between two theories).

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Re: On it goes...

Post by hedge on 28.02.10 10:06

@twinkle wrote:And who exactly do you think you are helping by being part of forum wars, not the McCanns. By giving these things breathing space all you are doing is playng a part in making the lie, or myth stay in pepoles minds.
Face facts, do you really think you are going to change people's opinion after all this time............no you are not.
I would feel very upset if someone lied about my family, as anyone would. I don't feel the same anger for other people's family, yep I may think it isn't right, but it isn't my job to wade in and argue on behalf of people I don't know or have their blessing for me to do so.
I think that as much as some feel they have some given right to take ownership of Maddie, there are as many who feel they have the right to fight the crusade for the parents. All it does is perpetuate the bile that is spewed between both camps.
If it wasn't fed, it wouldn't grow.
#

I'm confused, surely by letting something stand, as though it were factually correct, is giving it more breathing space. I'm certainly not fighting a crusade, I don't know them and have no dog in any alleged race but if someone posts something inflammatory and wrong in a public debating area, is it not appropriate to respond to that and it is not best to respond to it with truth and facts where you can?

I can't understand why anyone would defend anyone's right (if there was such a thing) to spread lies about anyone, how is that ever good, can you give me an example?

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Re: On it goes...

Post by Cath on 28.02.10 10:14

"It all comes down to respect for other members. One persons myth is another persons opinion because none of us can supply proof of anything very much. Even the PJ files, useful though they are, have the " what about the unpublished ones" as a sort of get out clause."

Hi Justagran

Agreed, but not 100%. flower
Opinions about what's (probably) happened differ, nobody can change that now and we should respect other people's opinion.
However, as soon as something, like the Top Secret Manuals, can be proven to be not Top Secret at all, do you think it's an opinion, or would you call it a myth?

Yes, unfortunately the missing information/files that aren't published are a sort of 'get out clause' for both sides of the fence.

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Re: On it goes...

Post by hedge on 28.02.10 10:23

@Pascal wrote:@ Hedge: By the same token, it would be extremely high handed to expect everyone to do what you consider to be right. People will not stop questioning the details around the case. There are many inconsistincies to question. That you can explain them away doesn't make it all slot into place for everyone. There will always be doubt relating to the behaviour/neglect issues/general demeanour of the parents, the dogs' alerts and the 'abduction' theory and there being not enough evidence to support one.

If you want to stop the injustice of lies, you could do well to start with the forum terrorists who slander other posters across the internet. They do little to add gravitas to the 'pro' argument. It is such extreme behaviour that keeps me firmly in the middle. I often question why those supporting the family of a missing infant would condone such practices. Spreading lies about forum posters then demanding that the 'facts' of the case be respected is a tad hypocrital.

Indeed it's the main bugbear for me. and I know of others who feel the same.

You seem to be confusing questioning bits of the case or having an opinion with what we have very distinctly and clearly stated now on several occasions, we are referring to those who knowingly and wilfully spread lies about the case, long disproven myths.

Clearly, slandering other posters in an attempt to deem their opinions invalid is an issue and has been since the mirror forum and 3As forum, usually in the form of accusation of paid chimp etc of course this has gone on and in some cases become even worse with individual posters being accused of being paedophiles etc. These insults range therefore from the merely insulting to the potentially dangerous. But for me tend to remain a separate issue because this is a bit like a small group squabbling and rarely if ever to the nastiest of remarks make it to public areas where members of the public might find it by googling, in comparison the lies and myths about Madeleines fate at one point was almost ALL you could find on the subject and of course as these myths could practically affect her chances of life and/or being found as well as peoples potential actions towards her family, I do rate these lies as particularly offensive, and damaging and are frustratingly easy to clear up if people just chose to stop telling and spereading known lies.

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Re: On it goes...

Post by justagrannynow 1 on 28.02.10 10:29

Inyx wrote:"It all comes down to respect for other members. One persons myth is another persons opinion because none of us can supply proof of anything very much. Even the PJ files, useful though they are, have the " what about the unpublished ones" as a sort of get out clause."

Hi Justagran

Agreed, but not 100%. flower
Opinions about what's (probably) happened differ, nobody can change that now and we should respect other people's opinion.
However, as soon as something, like the Top Secret Manuals, can be proven to be not Top Secret at all, do you think it's an opinion, or would you call it a myth?

Yes, unfortunately the missing information/files that aren't published are a sort of 'get out clause' for both sides of the fence.

Hi Inyx, ( see, I got your name right :yahoo: ). Some things are obviously myths and should be accepted as such. I think this is an area where the press are largely to blame for much of the lurid speculation and downright lies. The non existent shelf where the abductor placed Cuddlecat is another example, as is the one you have given. However, when it comes to stuff like DNA and the dog alerts, that gets us into the area of opinion as there is no conclusive proof one way or the other.

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Re: On it goes...

Post by twinkle on 28.02.10 10:41

[quote="Inyx"]
@twinkle wrote:But some people will always put faith in these things, conspiracy theories and the like.
It doesn't mean they are stupid.
I didn't think it was directed at me at all. just putting myself into it. As it seems all to easy to place people into pigeon holes regarding how they think.
The myths will always continue, up to the individual whether they pay any attention to them.

Nobody's said they (people who still believe in the myths) are all stupid, au contraire.
I've asked questions about what might motivate them because I genuinely can't understand why people hang on to them.
If you call asking questions patronising or placing people into pigeon holes, so be it.

Yes, myths will probably always continue, but why should anybody accept that?
Chaplins, top secret manuals, 100% DNA match, the PJ asked for Mark Harrison's advice and he came to the conclusion she's dead and advised the PJ accordingly, etc. etc.

Madeleine disappeared, nobody except the perpetrator(s) knows what's happened to her, nobody (except the perpetrator(s)) knows if she's still alive. And you nor me knows who the perpetrator(s) is (are).

ETA what on earth is this Auntie's bloomers forum you're talking about?[/quote]

My eyes are shocking, you know what I mean though....."Anti's" big grin

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Re: On it goes...

Post by Cath on 28.02.10 11:01

@justagrannynow 1 wrote:Hi Inyx, ( see, I got your name right :yahoo: ). Some things are obviously myths and should be accepted as such. I think this is an area where the press are largely to blame for much of the lurid speculation and downright lies. The non existent shelf where the abductor placed Cuddlecat is another example, as is the one you have given. However, when it comes to stuff like DNA and the dog alerts, that gets us into the area of opinion as there is no conclusive proof one way or the other.

thumbsup

Oh that shelve, yes I forgot about that. Silly idiot who wrote that, couldn't have been that hard to check it, is it?

Agreed, the press is to blame for a lot of the things that later turned out to be complete fabrications of creative journo's.
And I'm afraid the damage they've caused can never be undone.

DNA, dog alerts, body language, words people used, things people did/didn't do/should have done, it's all a matter of opinion, and until Madeleine is found (if that ever happens) and perhaps not even then, nobody can be sure if s/he's right or wrong.
Perhaps that's why those are the issues that raise the emotions of posters most?

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Re: On it goes...

Post by Cath on 28.02.10 11:06

@twinkle wrote:My eyes are shocking, you know what I mean though....."Anti's" big grin

Yes, now I do, it was late last night. I really thought there's another forum I've missed. Can't keep up with all of them, you know. big grin
Should I feel ashamed to admit I liked to read the Camelman or was it Playground man thread? :oops:

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Re: On it goes...

Post by ufercoffy on 28.02.10 11:41

JoMc wrote:After the result from Portugal how does that affect Mr Bennett's new book? I am looking forward to its publication as a positive step forward but I am worried we may never get to see it in England.

Did you think TB's last book was a positive step forward too...erm....Jo?

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Re: On it goes...

Post by Kololi on 28.02.10 12:17

Hi Hedge
I read two threads on the anti's bloomers section of another web site and providing you can remember not to take it personally and allow for the fact that it is being written by people who appear to firmly believe the abduction theory, some of it can make you still smile.

It's just an attempt at humour by ridiculing those who do not appear to believe the abduction theory in a nutshell.

Take care

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Re: On it goes...

Post by Autumn on 28.02.10 12:46

@vaguely1 wrote:GRAN: I have re read this thread from page 8 several times and have to say that, the way I read it, the remark by bunny was a general comment about certain posters/bloggers etc on the internet, not a personal attack on any member here. Although it is a shocking statement, I do believe it is true.


Well said Gran. I don't think Bunny can be held responsible for Marigold thinking the post might have been aimed at someone in particular. It was a very generic comment.

It's nice to know there's a voice of reason around when emotions get a little high.


Hi vaguely

Certainly no-one has ever posted on this forum 'wishing her dead'. Also, if comments relating to other blogs or forums are posted here, it would be helpful if a link could be provided to back up claims such as those made by bunny. As you say, it is a shocking statement and, until bunny can provide a source/link to support her allegation then I think it would be best for her to refrain from saying such things.

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Re: On it goes...

Post by vaguely1 on 28.02.10 12:50

I didn't say it was a shocking statement, that was a quote from Gran x

I don't think it's a shocking statement tbh, I think that there's some truth in the fact that SOME people have a huge emotional investment in the parents being guilty, and therefore it's in their interests (subconsciously or otherwise) that she isn't located alive.

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Re: On it goes...

Post by ufercoffy on 28.02.10 13:05

@vaguely1 wrote:I didn't say it was a shocking statement, that was a quote from Gran x

I don't think it's a shocking statement tbh, I think that there's some truth in the fact that SOME people have a huge emotional investment in the parents being guilty, and therefore it's in their interests (subconsciously or otherwise) that she isn't located alive.

Who on earth do you think would think that?

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Re: On it goes...

Post by vaguely1 on 28.02.10 13:10

I think that's apparent in their posts. As I said, maybe it's subconscious - I'm sure that no one is crossing their fingers actively in the hope that a child is dead.

I'm not interested in naming names, I don't think I could if I tried - they're the posters that in the past have left my blood running cold and therefore I don't post with them (as far as I know) - I just don't find the comment that was made earlier shocking.


ETA, it has nothing to do with whether you believe the McCanns, or you believe Amaral, and it has EVERYTHING to do with the language and anger that people display when they talk about the chances of a child being out there waiting to be found, or the language they use to dehumanise a child into body parts for easy disposal. imho. Respect for the child should not be dependent on which side of the fence you sit, and in my very humble opinion, the greatest respect you can show for any other human being is not to give up on them.

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Re: On it goes...

Post by Autumn on 28.02.10 14:33

Vaguely, I think you must inhabit a parallel uninverse - in nearly 3 years of reading a wide range of opinions, NEVER, have I come across anything remotely approaching what you describe. bigshock

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Re: On it goes...

Post by vaguely1 on 28.02.10 14:43

Never come across what? People refusing to give a child the benefit of the doubt? A child being discussed as an object for disposal?

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Re: On it goes...

Post by Autumn on 28.02.10 16:17

What do you mean 'people refusing to give a child the benefit of the doubt?' As far as I am aware, Madeleine (whom I take to be the child to whom you refer) has not been heard of since her disappearance.

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