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Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

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Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by Tony Bennett on 18.04.12 22:52


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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by anil39200 on 19.04.12 1:02

Jihadwatch is am extremely biased site. Whilst not confining the content of the story,Palestinians have their rights,people and land abused on a daily basis..

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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by anil39200 on 19.04.12 1:05

Sorry typo...not condoning..instead I put confining...

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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by Tony Bennett on 20.04.12 18:50

@anil39200 wrote:Jihadwatch is an extremely biased site. Whilst not condonning the content of the story, Palestinians have their rights, people and land abused on a daily basis...
A few, brief points by way of reply.

Until 70AD, when the Jewish rebellion against their Roman masters was ended with the collapse of resistance at Messina, the whole area was a Jewish state, known then as Judaea, albeit that the state of Judaea was part of the Roman Empire.

It had been a Jewish state, of course, since the entry of Joshua and the Israelites into what was previously called Canaan, in around 1400BC. Gradually the various Canaanite tribes were evicted from the area; the Jews maintained that this was God's 'Promised Land'.

The size of the Israeli/Jewish state diminished with the defeat by Assyria, 722BC, and by Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians, 586BC. By permission of the Persian ruler, Darius, however, many Jews were able to re-establish the Jewish state in 536BC - further details in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah and various other historical sources.

After 70AD, there was a huge Jewish diaspora, as the Roman set up the new puppet state of Palestina, but a Jewish presence remained in the land throughout, albeit many Arabs came to settle there as well.

Anti-Jewish sentiment in many European countries, especially Russia, was strong, and an exodus of more Jews to Palestine began. Anti-Jewish sentiment reached its appalling zenith under Hitler and the Nazis, with the Holocaust being the result, an event many Islamists including the President of Iran totally deny. By the 1940s, organisations like the Dalestine Faily News and the Palestine National Orchestra were almost entirely Jewish-run.

In 1948, the U.N. agreed to offer a tiny slice of land to the Jews. This event is known throughout the Islamic world as 'The Catastrophe'. No Arab was expelled by Israel, but tens of thousands of Arabs left and, with the help of their Arab neighbours, began a war against the new state within weeks of its creation. Despite being vastly outnumbered, the Jews won.

Since then, the Arab states have continued to harass Israel and they nearly all deny Israel's right to exist. Palestinians indiscrimnately lob shells at Israeli towns on a daily basis, hoping to kill any Jew, whether woman, pensioner or child. Sometimes they are successful.

'Jihad Watch' is not an 'extremely biased' website. On the contrary, it faithfully charts the appalling activities of militant, extremist Islamists worldwide, with their policy of killing and belief in holy martyrdom.

The Arab world in general and the Palestinians in particular consciously, deliberately, relentlessly, breed intense hatred of Jews into their children from the moment they can first begin to understand words, see a sample set of YouTube videos, below.

Besides that, the Palestinians are discriminated against and persecuted by their own people, the Arabs. Not one Arab state has ever accepted one Palestinian refugee. They refuse to help.

Meanwhile the Palestinians receive bucketfuls of financial aid from the likes of the UN, EU and Britain, a lot of it spent on weapons to try and kill Israelis, as is well known.

Not saying that Israel is always right, by any means, but the above facts need to be borne in mind when considering this sensitive matter:

Palestinian children taught to aspire to martyrdom



The PA continues to express pride in educating children to aspire to Shahada [martyrdom], portraying it as a national achievement. The Director of ...
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Palestinian Children Taught to Hate Jews


The peace process in Israel-Palestine seem to be relentless. Both sides need to take steps toward peace, but what are the Palestinians teaching ...

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Children Taught to Hate Jews


Why are Muslim children taught to hate Jews? Why do American and European NGOs facilitate these activities? This is not an isolated problem. This ...

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Muslim Palestinians teach children to hate in cartoons 1


This is how the palestinians teach/brainwash their children in children shows.. To hate and kill Jews, to hate and kill anyone who opposes Islam ...

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Palestinian Incitement: Children on a Mission to Kill Jews


Visit us at www.vitalperspective.com This is a Palestinian incitement video, subtitled in English, that appeared on official Palestinian ...

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ISLAM: Brainwashing Palestinian Children


HOW CHILDREN ARE EASILY TAUGHT TO HATE.

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Muslim Palestinians teach children to hate in cartoons 2


This is how the palestinians teach/brainwash their children in children shows.. To hate and kill Jews, to hate and kill anyone who opposes Islam ...

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Palestinian children's show says Jews are enemies of Allah


Nahool - Hamas Bee defines Jews as enemies of Allah

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Teaching Israeli Children to Hate Palestinians


Israeli children taught to hate Palestinians - Human rights workers attempt to get a soldier to stop settler kids who are throwing stones at a ...

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Israel Hamas Gaza TV programme Indoctrinates Children To Hate Jews


This weekly Hamas TV programme episode teaches murder and hatred of Jews to Palestinian children. Hamas has been indoctrinating children for years ...

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Palestinian children's graduation ceremony


You don't have to ask these cute little children what they want to be & what they want to do when they grow up. You can ask why CNN cut out the ...

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PAT CONDELL - "LET'S BLAME THE JEWS"


www.youtube.com Anti-Semitism in the UK remains high in 2010 www.bbc.co.uk UK: Anti-Semitism rampant in Muslim schools www.hudson-ny.org Jews ...

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3 YEAR OLD MUSLIM GIRL YEARNS TO KILL INFIDELS


Muslim girl taught from the Kuran to hate... ... usarmycaptainamerica ... hate kuran jews christians mohammed allah god islam palestinian race racism ...

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Inciting Children


A Palestinian Cartoon aired on 3.5.2002 on Hezbollah's Al Manar TV Station. Instead of laughing while watching bugs bunny, they are taught to ...

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Israeli Children learn to Hate


This video is for Pro-Israeli think that Palestinians are taught to hate. Now I decide to show the Pro-Israel this video about Israeli children ...

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Hamas Mickey Mouse speaks of Islamic supremacy


character to teach hate and Islamic supremacy ... pmwvideos ... Islam Islamic supremacy Hamas TV children Mickey Mouse farfur farfour ...

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Muslim Cleric Teaches Children to Hate Jews


Saudi Cleric Khaled Al-Khlewi Teaches Children to Hate Jews Following are excerpts from an address by Saudi cleric Khaled Al-Khlewi, which aired ...

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Palestine - The Children


Palestinians teach their children to hate as soon as they are brought to the world.. they teach them that Jews are pigs and that they should kill ...

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islam Muslim terrorists Brainwashing Palestinian Children


HOW CHILDREN ARE EASILY TAUGHT TO HATE.

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Children of Hamas


SHARE BY EMAIL AND POST IN BLOGS! The UN has been silent to the following criminal activities of the Hamas terrorist organization: 1. Hamas has ...

by TruthAboutConflict | 3 years ago | 856,928 views





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Palestinian/Arabic videos



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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by anil39200 on 21.04.12 10:55

The only Messina I am aware of is in Italy. I believe you mean Masada. It is believed that Masada was where around 900 Jews resisted the Romans until 73Ad. The story goes that when the Romans entered fires had been set and all the Jews had committed suicide rather than be captured. However subsequent archaeological evidence suggests only around thirty skeletons have been found. This has led some scholars to suggest the story was a myth. I actually believe it to be a heroic act and may have some truth to it.

Evidence from the Old Testament can be problematic. From an academic point of view, no one knows the individuals responsible for writing it and it is thought by some to have as many authors as it has books. True, it contains laws,history and poetry written for Jews by Jews, so as a history it will naturally be from the Jewish perspective.

I am not saying that one side is better than the other, simply that I beloved jihadwatch to be biased from what I have seen. I have also seen bias on the Palestinian side. Two sides to every story as it were.

I would like to say, on a different subject, good luck to you in your court case and I respect your stance in trying to find the truth of what happened to poor Madeleine. I am unsure how I can help but I do wish you well.

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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by anil39200 on 21.04.12 10:58

Sorry my typo again, cannot get used to using phone, for beloved, read believed.

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Correcting typos

Post by Guest on 21.04.12 11:44

Anil, are you not able to go back into messages and correct mistakes via the edit function? I don't know if this is possible when using a phone.

I'm very thankful that I can correct my mistakes - if only it was so easy in real life!

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A reply to anil39200

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.04.12 12:14

@anil39200 wrote:The only Messina I am aware of is in Italy. I believe you mean Masada.

You're quite right, my mistake.

It is believed that Masada was where around 900 Jews resisted the Romans until 73AD. The story goes that when the Romans entered fires had been set and all the Jews had committed suicide rather than be captured. However subsequent archaeological evidence suggests only around thirty skeletons have been found. This has led some scholars to suggest the story was a myth. I actually believe it to be a heroic act and may have some truth to it.

This event certainly marked the end of the Jewish state - until 1948.

Evidence from the Old Testament can be problematic.

So far as I am aware, not one verifiable historical fact set out in the Old Testament has ever been found to be wrong.

From an academic point of view, no one knows the individuals responsible for writing it and it is thought by some to have as many authors as it has books. True, it contains laws, history and poetry written for Jews by Jews, so as a history it will naturally be from the Jewish perspective.

I am not saying that one side is better than the other, simply that I beloved jihadwatch to be biased from what I have seen. I have also seen bias on the Palestinian side. Two sides to every story as it were.

Agreed, and both 'sides' should be aired. Even in the case of what really led to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

I would like to say, on a different subject, good luck to you in your court case and I respect your stance in trying to find the truth of what happened to poor Madeleine. I am unsure how I can help but I do wish you well.

That's very kind of you. The whole truth about anything is important.

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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by tigger on 21.04.12 12:59

I've watched on 'Academic Earth' some really good lectures on the New and Old Testament by a Harvard lecturer.
It is generally agreed that the OT was mostly written down around 500 BC. During the Babylonian exile.
The book of Daniel however, can be dated to about 160 BC. I love the reason for this: all the facts in the book before this date are spot on, after that date everything is completely wrong. However, it purported to be a book of prophesies, therefore this too, was said to be written down around the same time as most of the OT.

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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by anil39200 on 21.04.12 13:16

It is indeed the lack of verifiable facts that make it problematic, which also applies to the New Testament. eg. Moses. Very little is known about him. Except in the OT. Now it is believed by theologians that Moses was an early author. It is not however a verifiable fact, just because he may have written some of the ot, this is what on another thread I was trying to het the person by the name of Merrymo to give me, verifiable facts. Just because an author says so, then it comes from their worldview and that agenda, if there is one should be ascertained first. Theology comes from study and belief. I come from the other school.

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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by aquila on 21.04.12 13:23

I love the 'leap of faith'. It cannot be intellectualised. It doesn't require organised religion either. It's a personal thing. It doesn't ask for a reference. It doesn't ask for anything. JMHO.

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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.04.12 14:50

@anil39200 wrote:It is indeed the lack of verifiable facts that make it problematic...

Here's a fascinating recent confirmation of one Biblical fact from a cuneiform tablet in the British Museum, round about the time of the final exodus of Jews to Babylon in 586 BC, an event marked in song by Boney M in 'By the Rivers of Babylon':

http://www.britishmuseum.org/about_us/news_and_press/press_releases/2007/biblical_archaeology_find.aspx

Very little is known about Moses, except in the OT. Now it is believed by theologians that Moses was an early author. It is not however a verifiable fact. Just because he may have written some of the OT, this is what on another thread I was trying to get the person by the name of Merrymo to give me, verifiable facts. Just because an author says so, then it comes from their worldview - and that agenda, if there is one, should be ascertained first. Theology comes from study and belief. I come from the other school.

The farther back you go in historical time, the more difficult it is to verify historical accounts, either in the Bible, or in any other document which purports to record history.

Moses is generally accepted as the editor/compiler of the first 5 books of the Bible. I accept that there is no objective proof. Genesis is thought to have been written by Adam (Genesis 5 v 1), Noah (Genesis 6 v 9), his sons Shem, Ham and Japheth (Genesis 10 v 1) and other patriarchs.

One of the most controversial accounts in the Bible is that of the three Jews, Shadrach, Meschach and Abed-nego, who survived unscathed, or should I say unsinged and unburnt, after being thrown into a 'fiery furnace' (and Babylon had plenty of those). I was invited to the opening of the recent [2008] exhibition on Babylon at the British Museum and was surprised to find there that this event was very much recorded as a fact in Babylonian writings of the day.

Here's a short extract from an article I wrote on this exhibition back in 2008:

QUOTE:

There was a great deal of interest for the Bible student in this beautifully presented and high-tech exhibition. Familiar Bible accounts about Nebuchadnezzar, Nabonidus and Belshazzar were there, plus of course the fall and destruction of Jerusalem, the Babylonian captivity, and the restoration of Judah under Darius of Persia. The exhibition makes abundantly clear the prominent role of Daniel in Babylonian affairs; manuscripts from Babylon surviving from that era refer as a matter of fact to him in the lion’s den and his three Jewish colleagues surviving the fiery furnace; these were clearly incidents known about throughout the Babylonian world".

UNQUOTE

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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by PeterMac on 21.04.12 15:52

What I like about the bible is the way in which if you strip away 2000 years, or 4000 + years of oral tradition to the point where someone is able to write it down, and then accept that oral traditions grow, just like fishermen’s catches grow between the morning and the retelling of the story in the pub that night ...
you can still get an idea of what might have been happening

Consider

Goliath, 6 cubits and a span, (cubit = tip of finger to elbow, span = one outstretched hand) makes him over 9 feet. But the much earlier Dead Sea Scrolls put him at 4 cubits and a span, about 6’7”, (2 m). Still a “giant” of a man, particularly in the bronze age, but not the ludicrous fairy tale monster of the OT.

When Jesus of Nazareth is crucified, a Roman soldier stabs him last thing at night in the side with his spear, instead of breaking his legs as they did with the others.
It is reported that blood and water flowed out. There are incredibly complicated theological texts available trying to “understand” this, and to explain it in a metaphysical sense.

Why not assume that someone merely wrote down what they saw, and start from there. Look at what happens when you are hung up by the arms for a long period. You cannot breathe OUT, except by taking the weight on your feet, and once the legs have been broken this is impossible. So carbon dioxide accumulates, your blood chemistry changes to acidic and fluid quickly begins to collect in your lungs. We now call it pulmonary oedema. You begin to drown, and eventually the left ventricle of the heart fails and you die.

Poke someone in the lower lung with a spear and the fluid drains out, along with a bit of blood from the wound. He also incidentally gets a pneumothorax which will kill him fairly quickly since the other lung is full of fluid.

In the parable of the 6 wise virgins and 6 foolish virgins, the word clearly means nothing more than ‘young women’. In English we had the word “Maiden” which had the capacity to mean both things. “Behold, a Young Woman shall conceive and bear a son...” is somehow infinitely more believable and acceptable.

There are several possibilities for the “Fiery Furnace”, all credible, and all apparently miraculous. Has anyone here seen fire walking, or done it ?

Again there are learned texts about the use of words and the way they have been translated, or mis-translated, mostly by mediaeval scholars from Aramaic and Hebrew, into Greek, then into Latin, then into Bede’s English, then into 16th century English and then into the modern vernacular. Did they all have A* at A level in each of those languages, or were they copying and pasting from previous efrorts ?

My favourite is still this ...

A novice monk copying Holy texts in the scriptorium says to the Abbot,
“Father. We copy from copies, but may simply perpetuate error. May we not use the original”
The Abbot retires to the Librarium, and is missing for a long time.
Concerned they search and find him, weeping inconsolably.
“My Son” he said, “You were right. The word was CelebRATE.”

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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.04.12 16:18

@PeterMac wrote:Again there are learned texts about the use of words and the way they have been translated, or mis-translated, mostly by mediaeval scholars from Aramaic and Hebrew, into Greek, then into Latin, then into Bede’s English, then into 16th century English and then into the modern vernacular. Did they all have A* at A level in each of those languages, or were they copying and pasting from previous efforts?
There's a list (link below) of the learned and devout men who produced the King James or 'Authorised' version of the Bible between 1603 and 1611, a period when Roman Catholic terrorists tried to blow up the King and Parliament. I think actually many of them had degrees in Latin, Greek etc., and were proficient linguists, maybe even at First Class Honours level:

http://www.bibleprotector.com/The_Translators.pdf

Their aim was to produce a literal, word-for-word translation of the original Hebrew and Aramaic (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament). In doing so, they used the best manuscripts from the 'Received Text' tradition. They had the benefit of earlier translations by folk like John Wycliffe and William Tyndale to help them. They also decided, as an aid to memory, to use only single syllable English words if ones could be found, amongst the rich variety of English words having similar meanings. There is no doubt that they succeeded in that aim.

The New Testament was written in Greek because that was the 'lingua franca' of the times, much in the same way as English is today, English having begun as a language, in effect, when in 449AD Hengist and Horga arrived on our shores (to help the Brits get rid of the troublesome Picts north of the border, which had become much more difficult after the Romans left).

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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by Shibboleth on 21.04.12 17:14

You cannot take any thing written in the *Old Testament* as correct. Many versions are mis-translated. You must read in the original Hebrew, it has been faithfully copied exactly through 5000 years with no changes or mistakes.

Also it does not give definitive answers. It has to be read and debated, every single word and even letter has been studied for 5000 years and still the Rabbis and people debate the meanings. I do not believe that there is anyone on this Earth who completely understands the Torah, or can state definitively that one interpretation is correct, over another.

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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by tigger on 21.04.12 17:15

http://academicearth.org/courses/new-testament-history-and-literature

I thought I'd put the link here. Fantastic courses in science and religion, new testament as historical documents, old testament, you name it.

The internet at its best!

Re the translations from Greek - that's where the confusion about the Virgin birth arose?
Arameic having two words: a virgin and an unmarried young woman.
Greek only had 'koren'? i.e. virgin.
Re the persistence of names: Maiden Lane in the city of London was called Koren Lane in the 16/17th century.

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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by anil39200 on 21.04.12 17:59

Thanks for that link tigger. Some fascinating stuff, right up my street. keep me happy for hours. thumbsup

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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.04.12 18:01

@Shibboleth wrote:You cannot take anything written in the *Old Testament* as correct.

That's a very sweeping statement, Shibboleth. On the contrary, many events recorded in the Bible have been verified down to tiny details by other historical records. No-one seriously doubts, for example, that the ten 'northern tribes' of Israel were captured and taken to Assyria in 722BC, exactly as the Bible describes, nor that the two remaining tribes of Judah and Benjamin were similarly removed to Babylon in 586 BC, just as the Bible explains, in much painful detail. Nor for that matter is the historicity of King Solomon denied, as per this article:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/02/100226-king-solomon-wall-jerusalem-bible/

The Bible records that King Solomon built a palace for himself. This appears to be it.

What is remarkable is that despite all the claims of historical inaccuracies, different translations and interpretations of the Bible, no-one has ever found any of its historical or factual statements to be incorrect.

You must read in the original Hebrew, it has been faithfully copied exactly through 5000 years with no changes or mistakes.

Or accurate translations into other languages.

Also it does not give definitive answers. It has to be read and debated, every single word and even letter has been studied for 5000 years and still the Rabbis and people debate the meanings. I do not believe that there is anyone on this Earth who completely understands the Torah, or can state definitively that one interpretation is correct, over another.

Agreed, many passages require interpretation. But take for example the books of Kings and Chronicles (or for that matter Samuel, which I believe Dr Kate McCann dipped into from time to time), and these are basically history books with little room for interpretation.

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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by Shibboleth on 21.04.12 18:12

The twelve tribes of Judaism are taken to be Joseph and his nine brothers, plus the two sons of Joseph, Ephraim and Manneseh. I agree that many of the historical events in Torah can be verified by other scriptures. The best example that you may recognize would be the Megillat of Ester, which is also written in contemporaneous Persian scriptures.

By stating that there are *accurate translations* then you mis-understand, some Hebrew terms have no accurate translations into English, or any other language.

The Torah is not a printed book. Each copy of Torah is written by hand by a specialy trained Rabbi, a sofer. It is then checked by three other soferim. If even one letter is wrong, that Torah is not valid. That part has to be scratched out and re-written. There are, therefore, no veriations, no mistakes, and it has been so for over 5 000 years. Each scroll is also checked annualy, to verify that the letters are complete and none have peeled off. They have to be repaired if this is the case.

It is also a law book, how to live our lives, and a family tree, explaining Jewish geneology. You make the mistake that many non-Jews make, of the belief that it is just a history book or a story book. The *Old Testament* may well be some kind of history book or story book for Christians, but this is not the same as the Torah.

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When was the Old Testament written?

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.04.12 18:24

@tigger wrote:First of all, tigger, great respect to you for your prodigious and very interesting contributions to this forum over the past few months, I (and I know others) have greatly appreciated them.

It is generally agreed that the OT was mostly written down around 500 BC., during the Babylonian exile.

That's incorrect. Most Biblical scholars would say the following, for example (not got space to deal with every book):

First 5 books of the Bible - written by Jewish/Hebrew patriarchs and compiled/edited by Moses during the 40 years in the wilderness around 1440BC

Joshua - written by an author alive in Joshua's lifetime

Job - deals with events around 2000BC and written contemporaneously

Ezra and Nehemiah - written by Ezra and Nehemiah who lived around 500BC - 450BC and describe the rebuilding of the Jewish state after the return from Babylon 536BC

Psalms - mostly authored by King David approx 1036BC to 996BC (date of King Solomon's accession)

Proverbs - mostly authored by King Solomon.

I agree that many books deal with the lead-up to the Babylonian captivity and the subsequent restoration of the Jewish state under the reign of King Darius of Persia.

The book of Daniel however, can be dated to about 160 BC. I love the reason for this: all the facts in the book before this date are spot on, after that date everything is completely wrong. However, it purported to be a book of prophesies, therefore this too, was said to be written down around the same time as most of the OT.

This is hotly disputed. There is a great deal of evidence that the book was written by Daniel, an historical figure, as I mentioned earlier up the thread. It was the Neo-Platonist philosopher, Porphyry (233AD - 304AD) who first claimed that Daniel was written about 160BC. He, like others, could not believe that Daniel, admittedly in symbolic language, could have predicted, prophetically, the course of world history over the next few hundred years (Daniel Ch. 6).

Articles on the internet give both sides of the debate, and it's a fascinating one; at the end of the day people must make up their mind whether this really was Daniel writing about real events which he was personally involved in.

Daniel was an honest and very capable man and became one of Nebuchadnezzar's leading ministers, much like Joseph was made Prime Minister of Egypt by the Pharaoh some 1,300 years earlier.

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The 12 sons of Jacob

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.04.12 18:37

@Shibboleth wrote:The twelve tribes of Judaism are taken to be Joseph and his nine brothers, plus the two sons of Joseph, Ephraim and Manneseh.

Joseph had eleven brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun and Bejamin. Levi and his descendants were appointed to be the priestly class, that left 11 sons to found tribes, and, as you say, Joseph was replaced by his two sons, making the 12.

I agree that many of the historical events in Torah can be verified by other scriptures. The best example that you may recognize would be the Megillat of Ester, which is also written in contemporaneous Persian scriptures.

Esther is a fantastic (and true) story, shedding light on yet another historical attempt to eliminate the Jews.

By stating that there are *accurate translations* then you mis-understand, some Hebrew terms have no accurate translations into English, or any other language.

Very few. Can you give us some specific examples?

The Torah is not a printed book. Each copy of Torah is written by hand by a specialy trained Rabbi, a sofer. It is then checked by three other soferim. If even one letter is wrong, that Torah is not valid. That part has to be scratched out and re-written. There are, therefore, no veriations, no mistakes, and it has been so for over 5 000 years. Each scroll is also checked annualy, to verify that the letters are complete and none have peeled off. They have to be repaired if this is the case.

It is also a law book, how to live our lives, and a family tree, explaining Jewish geneology. You make the mistake that many non-Jews make, of the belief that it is just a history book or a story book. The *Old Testament* may well be some kind of history book or story book for Christians, but this is not the same as the Torah.

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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by Shibboleth on 21.04.12 18:43

Nebuchadnezar reigned around 600 BCE. The chronicles of Daniel were written in both Aramaic and late-period Hebrew, which would have been the prominent languages of that time.

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Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael - The Arab/Jewish conflict explained (in part)

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.04.12 18:47

Whilst we are having a history lesson, or rather, a debate about history, it might be worth setting down the origin of the Arab/Palestinian v. Israeli conflict.

According to the book of Genesis, Abraham married Sarah but she was childless.

God promised them a child, but in the end they couldn't wait. Sarah was desperate to be a mother. Abraham agreed to father a child by another woman, Hagar. She produced a child, Ishmael.

The two women fell out and Hagar and Ishmael were in effect driven out of the family home by Abraham and Sarah.

Later, says the Bible, Abraham and Sarah were blessed with their own child, Isaac, who inherited the promises made to Abraham.

Likewise, Isaac's son Jacob inherited the promise, because his wild twin brother Esau preferred 'a mess of pottage'.

Isaac thus fathered the Jews, while Ishmael fathered the Arabs.

Both Jews and Muslims claim to revere Abraham.

But Arabs/Muslims believe that Ishmael was the rightful inheritor of the promise, not Isaac.

Hence centuries of conflict.

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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by Shibboleth on 21.04.12 18:49

here is an easy example. L'eser ha-dibrot. What is the sixth entry?

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Re: Death sentence for selling property to a Jew - Palestine

Post by tigger on 21.04.12 18:57

http://academicearth.org/courses/new-testament-history-and-literature

Lecture nr. 4 on this link refers to the book of Daniel - it appears to be in two parts - the Babylonian part and the second part deals mainly with 'cycles' of predictions - most of which came true.
However, therefore this part of Daniel is thought to be written around 164 BC, since between the official date of writing (6th c BC) and 164 BC he gets everything right, pretty well every 'prophesy'.
After 164 - gets everything wrong and misses the Maccabees completely.

Really, brilliant lectures.
The Science and Religion ones are very good too.

The Greek and Roman background is good too.

On the Old Testament from the link above:
Lecture 1 - Studying the Old Testament
This lecture provides an introduction to the literature of the Hebrew Bible and its structure and contents. Common misconceptions about the Bible are dispelled: the Bible is a library of books from diverse times and places rather than a single, unified book; biblical narratives contain complex themes and realistic characters and are not "pious parables" about saintly persons; the Bible is a literarily sophisticated narrative not for children; the Bible is an account of the odyssey of a people rather than a book of theology; and finally, the Bible was written by many human contributors with diverse perspectives and viewpoints.

I'm enjoying this informed discussion so much! I hope Tony and Shibboleth can both agree with the above paragraph.


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