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Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

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which came first...?

Post by worriedmum on 07.03.12 15:47

Did Kate's disturbing dream about Madeleine and subsequent phone call to the PJ come before or after the Mccanns called Dannie Kruger in?

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by listener on 07.03.12 16:08

Thanks aiyoyo & PeterMac, I remember it now - it stands out like a sore thumb from 1000' in a Microlight!

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by rainbow-fairy on 07.03.12 16:28

@david_uk wrote:
@sijm wrote:Yes, I know it sounds macabre, but I have my reasons for forming this theory.

Can one of you tell me the difference in stuffing an almost four year old child's body into a golf/tennis bag, or burying it and digging it up again to move it,( as many theories suggest) are any less macabre.

I ask, how can those obscene, cold acts as mentioned above, show more respect then gently laying the child's body in a car seat with a towel or pink blanket (maybe like the blanket Dannie Krugel found the cliff top) to cover her, so as to transport her from one destination to another, possibly for someone to pick her up later and whoosh her away quickly for time spent at the location would mean more risk.

As for the possibility of being kept in the morgue until those last moves for the last journey home, some of the most blatant crimes have been commited with an air of arragance, where, the perpetrators think they can outwit those who persue them, and I must addmit, it would have been the last place I would have looked for Madeleine, that is until the parents were made suspects.

I know if a child of mine had been demised in the same way, no way I would leave her in a foreign land and no way could I double her up in a bag like an animal or bury my child to have her dig up again, it has to be a clean , swift, operation with respect for my lost child.

Putting myself in that situation, I probably would even wash her and groom her for the last time, perhaps even trim her hair, cut her nails as a loving mothers last act for her last journey home.

Hence the hair, hence the nails, hence the clean up, all done out of an odd sense of love.



you know what, im not even going to reply to your posts after this, you kinda give me the creeps if im honest.



and are we really giving any credance to Krugel and his magic box!..seriously... Might as well get a water diviner in! askhim to tweak it to fnd bodies and liars!...
I read sijm's post this morning. It is very rare that I am lost for words, but frankly, this did it! I've had a sleep on it and I have to say its still one of the most bonkers things I've ever read!
I don't mind the bit about the car seat, IMO that IS no worse than the thought of the tennis bag. But, the MORGUE? P-lease!
sijm, how would they even GET her (or themselves) in the morgue in the first place? Its not like its a massive fridge with bodies thrown in like frozen chickens! They are highly regulated and administrated places. Bodies are tagged and computerised. Do you not think the mortician just MIGHT have noticed a stray little girls body when one was so famously missing?
IF, and its a big IF, it'd been the UK (seeing as Gerry worked in a hospital and had contacts but Portugal? No way. How would they gain access?who was 'covering' up in the morgue?
Far more likely IMO is they gained access to an empty property via Murat.
I'm sure the McCanns love you and your theories sijm, whether intentional or not, as you make us all seem quite unhinged!

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by listener on 07.03.12 16:38

Would not have thought there would be a morgue west of Lagos!

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Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day and Hiding Bodies-Pat Brown

Post by sijm on 07.03.12 17:08

I am so sorry if I offended anyone on this forum, it was meant only as a theory based on facts and info I have to hand and I do appreciate you recognise my human rights to have free speech and thoughts as others have on this forum.

I am the most, kind, loving person you could ever wish to meet, ask my family and friends, but almost five years ago I cheated death more than once by making a vow to keep going until I found Madeleine, I hope my prayers are answered, only time will tell.

I also thank you for posting that link to Dannie Krugel and the proof that I was telling the truth about his alleged finding of a blanket, I also noted one post that stated Madeleine's blanket was pink and blue, if so, that is also interesting.

Dannie Krugel has a lot of critics including me, because I suspect Dannie's machine is nothing more than a mini Google Earth Satellite monitor and he was able to tap into the information that Donal McIntrye has now informed us, that there was a major US Satellite covering the area at the time that Madeleine disappeared, I also suspect it covered the area for quite some time after maybe for a few months.

I would think being an ex-detective) Dannie had figured out where Madeleine had been hidden on that area of Rocha Negra and had a shock when he arrived to find she was no longer there (after all he had stated that something big would happen to prove his machine, that was in January 2007)

All the other information about Morrocco had been added by another source as a red herring.

I watched the McIntyre video on his report about that Satellite coverage over Luz, and the area he says was covered by the Satellite was part of the Rocha Negra cliffs, where Pat was searching.

Just one more thing about Dannie Krugel, which I found interesting, the fact he had mentioned about one of his cases back in SA, A small child had gone missing and he had located her hidden under a sheeps fleece, could that have been a clue as to the where Madeleine was hidden on the cliff face?

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by joyce1938 on 07.03.12 17:18

There is a morgue at a place called Mertola,on holiday last year we took a drive to a reustrant called THE TABLE ON THETOP,We then drove on to a place called mertola ,very small little place and we took a turning to park and parked next to a morgue,tiny one and we were surprised to find such in small village.it just came back as i am reading joyce1938 not that i have any idea if it would be relevent .

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by russiandoll on 07.03.12 17:22

In sijm's defence, the morgue theory might be implausible but at least it is not as distasteful as a disgraceful post on this forum a couple of months ago suggesting that as Gerry was a doctor[ not a surgeon, note] he would know how to dismember a body.
Please don't have a go at sijm for one outlandish theory, at least he suggests respectful treatment of the child after her demise.

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russiandoll, sijm and my bad temper!

Post by rainbow-fairy on 07.03.12 18:07

Sorry russiandoll! Its nice to think the child was shown respect after her demise, just a pity she was shown so little beforehand...
Its not one outlandish theory, its one after another...really its another poster who has got my back up badly so I will say
'Sorry sijm, that I was harsh in my reply. Must pick you up on something though - another poster did NOT say Krugel found a pink and blue blanket. They said pink and white checked. Just in the interest of accuracy!'
I just think we have to be careful not to give the 'Pro-McCanns Anti-s-are-all-sicko's' lot too much ammo. They think we are barking anyway. I'm absolutely dedicated to justice for Maddie, and that is something I will never apologise for.

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Truth is artless and innocent - like the eloquence of nature, it is clothed with simplicity and easy persuasion; always open to investigation and analysis, it seeks exposure because it fears not detection.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by Guest on 07.03.12 18:32

@russiandoll wrote:In sijm's defence, the morgue theory might be implausible but at least it is not as distasteful as a disgraceful post on this forum a couple of months ago suggesting that as Gerry was a doctor[ not a surgeon, note] he would know how to dismember a body.
Please don't have a go at sijm for one outlandish theory, at least he suggests respectful treatment of the child after her demise.

I know to whom you refer Russian doll - the dismemberment thing - and he (?) was definitely a troll so obviously his intention was to bring discredit to the forum.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by Nina on 07.03.12 19:00

Whilst reading this thread I have just noticed the photographs on the top right of the page. Thankyou whoever it is who does these.

The one with Gerry and the golf bag, is this taken in PdL, and how many golf sticks can you see?

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Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day and Hiding Bodies-Pat Brown

Post by sijm on 07.03.12 20:21

Thank you for those kind words, I am not a male but a female hence the sensitive feelings towards a small child.

You have all done such a good job here and its not one of the most pleasant jobs, please believe me when I say, I wish only to add to your cause, to fined the truth for Madeleine no matter what.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by aiyoyo on 08.03.12 3:07

@Nina wrote:Whilst reading this thread I have just noticed the photographs on the top right of the page. Thankyou whoever it is who does these.

The one with Gerry and the golf bag, is this taken in PdL, and how many golf sticks can you see?

I spotted that photo too - I doubt it's taken in PdL since there was no report of them having played golf there.

The general idea is Gerry did have a 'biggish hold-all bag' be it sports or travel bag whatever, but big enough for the suspected purpose.
Golf clubs are not light either,and most golfers being fit can carry them for fairly long distance without problem.
When you've a bag slung over the shoulder for support, leaving your hands free to support the base up, easing off the weight on your side, it's amazing the distance you can cover without too much difficulty especially when you've a determined purpose.
So the point that a small child could be hidden in such a bag and carried out of the apt is very plausible.

The mystery of the missing blue bag is definitely of interest to the Police as the mystery of missing Madeleine, else the Police wouldn't have mentioned it.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by aquila on 08.03.12 3:40

People carrying bags in a holiday resort is not unusual - even at strange times of the day/night due to flight arrivals/departures (and they don't need to necessarily be UK flights to/from Portugal). It would be quite easy to stick a bag on a transfer bus to the airport and go unnoticed. Get to the airport, bag unloaded, no-one would notice if you took your bag to an awaiting car instead of check-in. It doesn't even need to be YOU that takes the bag on the bus transfer. Just a thought.

There's even the accepted practice of leaving your bag with heaps of other bags in reception with other bags because your flight was much later than your check-out time.

I'm adding as usual. The bag in the cupboard could have been a bag used as luggage. I travel a lot and use lightweight bags to gain the max weight allowance. The bag in the cupboard may well have been something sinister or just a ruse, once again who knows. BUT it's very easy to transfer a bag to an airport in a holiday resort as it's just a bag. The bag would not have needed to go through customs or be checked if it had simply sat with a pile of other bags and at arrival could have been put in a car and transported.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by Gillyspot on 08.03.12 6:33

@Nina wrote:Whilst reading this thread I have just noticed the photographs on the top right of the page. Thankyou whoever it is who does these.

The one with Gerry and the golf bag, is this taken in PdL, and how many golf sticks can you see?

I have seen the original photo somewhere and it is taken at Rothley Park Golf Club. I have had a look recently & have been unable to find it again. If someone else can provide a link as it was the article I wanted not the photo. friends

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by tigger on 08.03.12 7:40

@aiyoyo wrote:
@Nina wrote:Whilst reading this thread I have just noticed the photographs on the top right of the page. Thankyou whoever it is who does these.

The one with Gerry and the golf bag, is this taken in PdL, and how many golf sticks can you see?

I spotted that photo too - I doubt it's taken in PdL since there was no report of them having played golf there.

The general idea is Gerry did have a 'biggish hold-all bag' be it sports or travel bag whatever, but big enough for the suspected purpose.
Golf clubs are not light either,and most golfers being fit can carry them for fairly long distance without problem.
When you've a bag slung over the shoulder for support, leaving your hands free to support the base up, easing off the weight on your side, it's amazing the distance you can cover without too much difficulty especially when you've a determined purpose.
So the point that a small child could be hidden in such a bag and carried out of the apt is very plausible.

The mystery of the missing blue bag is definitely of interest to the Police as the mystery of missing Madeleine, else the Police wouldn't have mentioned it.

David Payne in his RI stated that Gerry didn't have a large bag and helpfully and memorably said that there was nothing big enough to errrm hide a tennis racket in.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by Willo on 08.03.12 8:17

The blue bag was seen in the photo sitting in the cupboard. I believe the PJ would have other photos and indeed they would have physically examined the bag whilst checking the apartment. The McCann's deny all knowledge of such a bag existing. For them to blatantly lie knowing full well the the bag would have been documented by the PJ shows how important this bag is. I would say it was definitely used to carry Madelienes body in the back of the car from a temporary hiding place to who knows where. Unknowing to them the bag was leaching tell tell DNA as they drove off to complete their sordid plan.

I wonder what the duo will say when confronted with clear evidence of the existence of the bag in a court of law?


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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 08.03.12 8:50

@Gillyspot wrote:
@Nina wrote:Whilst reading this thread I have just noticed the photographs on the top right of the page. Thankyou whoever it is who does these.

The one with Gerry and the golf bag, is this taken in PdL, and how many golf sticks can you see?

I have seen the original photo somewhere and it is taken at Rothley Park Golf Club. I have had a look recently & have been unable to find it again. If someone else can provide a link as it was the article I wanted not the photo.



http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2012/03/maddie-case-goncalo-amaral-returns-to.html

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by david_uk on 08.03.12 8:57

@aquila wrote:People carrying bags in a holiday resort is not unusual - even at strange times of the day/night due to flight arrivals/departures (and they don't need to necessarily be UK flights to/from Portugal). It would be quite easy to stick a bag on a transfer bus to the airport and go unnoticed. Get to the airport, bag unloaded, no-one would notice if you took your bag to an awaiting car instead of check-in. It doesn't even need to be YOU that takes the bag on the bus transfer. Just a thought.

There's even the accepted practice of leaving your bag with heaps of other bags in reception with other bags because your flight was much later than your check-out time.

I'm adding as usual. The bag in the cupboard could have been a bag used as luggage. I travel a lot and use lightweight bags to gain the max weight allowance. The bag in the cupboard may well have been something sinister or just a ruse, once again who knows. BUT it's very easy to transfer a bag to an airport in a holiday resort as it's just a bag. The bag would not have needed to go through customs or be checked if it had simply sat with a pile of other bags and at arrival could have been put in a car and transported.



Surely there would be a problem once this bag reached London Airport?

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by joyce1938 on 08.03.12 10:23

I have never seen a blue bag in cupboard ,could be navy blue i guess ,but it also could have been normal suitcase,its nit clear enough to see in any pics so far .I guess sy would try to look at all and try to elimenate some of what we are guessing at ,no bad thing as we dont want to get hung up on something that we dont need to.if we do it seems to bring so many more problems and still we cant work it out.ofcourse i want to see justice and hope it will be soon joyce1938

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by aiyoyo on 08.03.12 10:53

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:
@Gillyspot wrote:
@Nina wrote:Whilst reading this thread I have just noticed the photographs on the top right of the page. Thankyou whoever it is who does these.

The one with Gerry and the golf bag, is this taken in PdL, and how many golf sticks can you see?

I have seen the original photo somewhere and it is taken at Rothley Park Golf Club. I have had a look recently & have been unable to find it again. If someone else can provide a link as it was the article I wanted not the photo.




http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2012/03/maddie-case-goncalo-amaral-returns-to.html

OMG - priceless! just seen it now.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by happychick on 08.03.12 11:49

@Willo wrote:The blue bag was seen in the photo sitting in the cupboard. I believe the PJ would have other photos and indeed they would have physically examined the bag whilst checking the apartment. The McCann's deny all knowledge of such a bag existing. For them to blatantly lie knowing full well the the bag would have been documented by the PJ shows how important this bag is. I would say it was definitely used to carry Madelienes body in the back of the car from a temporary hiding place to who knows where. Unknowing to them the bag was leaching tell tell DNA as they drove off to complete their sordid plan.

I wonder what the duo will say when confronted with clear evidence of the existence of the bag in a court of law?




So, if there was a blue sports bag in the wardrobe as shown in the pic at the top of the forum and Gerry didn't go to PDL to play golf it makes me wonder why he took the sports bag that David Payne said wasn't big enough to "hide a tennis racquet". Why would you 'hide' a tennis racquet in a sports bag? Surely you would put a tennis racquet in a sports bag and maybe 'hide' a dead body in it to dispose of it?

And IF that's what happened then why didn't they want Madeleine's body to be found?


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Criminal Profiling Topic and Hiding Bodies-Pat Brown

Post by sijm on 08.03.12 11:55

How more weird can this case get, the golf pros on the Alto Club and Boavista Club next to Praia da Luz are named as Mark Gaspar and Tony Bennet, and one John Buck rated the Alto club 7 out of 10, how weird is that!

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by aquila on 08.03.12 12:06

@david_uk wrote:
@aquila wrote:People carrying bags in a holiday resort is not unusual - even at strange times of the day/night due to flight arrivals/departures (and they don't need to necessarily be UK flights to/from Portugal). It would be quite easy to stick a bag on a transfer bus to the airport and go unnoticed. Get to the airport, bag unloaded, no-one would notice if you took your bag to an awaiting car instead of check-in. It doesn't even need to be YOU that takes the bag on the bus transfer. Just a thought.

There's even the accepted practice of leaving your bag with heaps of other bags in reception with other bags because your flight was much later than your check-out time.

I'm adding as usual. The bag in the cupboard could have been a bag used as luggage. I travel a lot and use lightweight bags to gain the max weight allowance. The bag in the cupboard may well have been something sinister or just a ruse, once again who knows. BUT it's very easy to transfer a bag to an airport in a holiday resort as it's just a bag. The bag would not have needed to go through customs or be checked if it had simply sat with a pile of other bags and at arrival could have been put in a car and transported.



Surely there would be a problem once this bag reached London Airport?

Hi david-uk,

What I meant was that it would be easy to get the bag from the resort to the airport. Once at the airport it could be put into a hire-car and driven anywhere.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by worriedmum on 08.03.12 12:12

but out of anywhere else to choose from, I would expect an airport to have cctv......

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by Guest on 08.03.12 12:22

@sijm wrote:How more weird can this case get, the golf pros on the Alto Club and Boavista Club next to Praia da Luz are named as Mark Gaspar and Tony Bennet, and one John Buck rated the Alto club 7 out of 10, how weird is that!


Where has this info come from sijm? I have looked at the Boavista Club page, and not seen anything. Interesting though that a Mr John Geraghty is or was a member in 2006 and is on the Hole in one Club page.

http://www.boavistagolf.com/holeinone.asp


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