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Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

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Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by Guest on 05.03.12 21:06

Monday, March 5, 2012





Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies








The Rocha Negra
"Friends help friends move; Great friends help friends move bodies."

Getting stuck with a corpse is not one of those events we anticipate ever having to deal with, unless we are an experienced serial killer. For the uninitiated, panic is the primary emotion at the moment one finds themselves with a dead body and desperation and fear are panic's close companions. Fear of ending up in prison for the rest of one's life, desperation to prevent such a repercussion, and, panic, as one tries to get rid of the damning evidence in a short period of time.

The problem with unpremeditated crimes is that one usually has little time to think, to cover up what has occurred, and get rid of evidence sufficiently. Most nonserial killers also have the added problem of the victim being connected to them in some way; a wife, a husband, a girlfriend or boyfriend, a child. The police will be showing up on one's doorstep and one has to actually report the person missing at some point and one needs an alibi. Serial killers target strangers (or mild acquaintances) and no one has a clue they are connected in any way to a crime in their community. They have ample time to dump or hide bodies and toss clothing or weapons. By the time a serial killer becomes a suspect, often he doesn't need to worry about an alibi because years have gone by.

Not the same situation for a domestic homicide. The body of the victim usually is lying in the middle of one's living room floor or dead in the bedroom. The person is going to be missed shortly - at school, at work, by friends and family. And we often quickly suspect a relative if that relative was the last to see the victim alive, especially if he doesn't report the individual missing for days. So what the panicked perpetrator needs to do is get rid of the body immediately, try to stage some sort of abduction, and then report the person missing as soon as possible. This way, he looks as innocent and as concerned as he can and, if lucky, he can try to establish some alibi though this is often difficult (and nearly impossible without involving family or friends).

Because of the fear of what the autopsy will discover and the possibility of DNA and trace evidence linking back to the perpetrator of a domestic homicide, it is common for the offender to attempt to hide the body extremely well or destroy it entirely. Serial killers and sex predators often just dump the body like garbage a mile or so from their home, not worrying all that much that any evidence will be connected back to them unless they have their DNA in the CODIS system and a match will identify them. So when a body isn't found after someone goes missing out of a house, police tend to take a strong look at whomever was at the same location as the victim at the time the person disappeared. This does not mean there aren't some serial killers who work harder at hiding bodies; they may bury them on their property, feed them to pigs, or toss them down mine shafts. But, it is far more common, especially with child sex predators, to dump the body quickly, usually within an hour of two of the abduction, rape, and murder of the little victim. Very few children taken for sexual purposes under the age of five aren't found dead and found dead fairly quickly; those that remain missing often are cases in which abduction is not proven and the parents are person-of-interest.

On the Beach in Praia da Luz Early in the AM
So, on May 3, 2007, if Madeleine McCann did die in Apartment 5A in Praia da Luz and her father or mother or both found themselves in that unexpected nightmare of dealing with a body, what would they do? Kate and Gerry would likely fear arrest and imprisonment for one or both of them for murder - even if for second degree homicide as in an overdose or an overdose leading to an accident, or for manslaughter due to neglect and an accident - if there was something the autopsy would uncover. They would have to get rid of the body, any evidence of Maddie's demise, stage an abduction, and he and Kate would need need alibis that would cover the time that Maddie would have been "abducted."

If Maddie died in the vacation apartment, it would seem the McCanns were successful at all of the above, barring the alerting of the cadaver and blood dogs to locations and items in the apartment and hire car. And the most important aspect of the cover-up issues is the losing of the body permanently; no body, rarely an arrest. The history of missing children with parents who are suspects has proven this over and over. In just the last few years we have in the United States a number of cases that come to mind: Haleigh Cummings, Ayla Reynolds, Sky Metalwalla, Jhessye Shockley, Kyron Horman, and Lisa Irwin. No bodies, no arrests although at least one parent is a top person-of-interest in all of these cases.

So, let's say Gerry really was seen by the Smith family at 9:50 pm, dumped Maddie's body, and then hurried back to the Tapas restaurant. Why would he bother to move her body? Why not let the police find it and think an abductor took Maddie, killed her, and got rid of her? Likely because of what autopsy might determine (drugs in body, head trauma, positional asphyxiation) and what the autopsy might not determine (violent sexual assault and strangulation by a predator) and trace evidence that might link back to the McCanns and no one else. So, if the McCanns covered up the death of Madeleine, they would have to be sure her body was not found, if at all possible. Maddie's body would have to be moved to a fairly secretive location.

Some might say then that it must have been one brilliant location her body was hidden in that the police never thought of looking because it was never found. Others might say because her body wasn't found in the area, the McCanns must have nothing to do with the crime because they only had a few hours in the early morning hours to move Maddie's body to a better spot and how would they have accomplished this so well in so short a time?

Well, mostly by luck. Luck plays an interesting role in a lot of crimes. One would think bodies of children that families try to dispose of in a hurry should be very easy to find but they are not, often because they are quite tiny and easy to stuff into a variety of places or they get lost in a large expanse of land. That the cadaver dogs didn't hit months later out in the open of Praia da Luz does not mean an abductor trundled Maddie out of town; it doesn't mean that her body wasn't hidden somewhere in the area for a period of time. Although false positives are extremely rare for cadaver dogs, false negatives are more common and it is hard to prove the dogs missed a spot when, well, they missed it. With changing weather conditions and numerous other factors, where a body may have been hidden temporarily may be overlooked by dogs, the smell having wafted off, well contained, or somehow not being noticeable enough.

False positives and negatives work like perfume; suppose a husband is having an affair with his secretary. She spritzes herself with perfume and the two go to a bar, take a walk in the park, and then come back to the bedroom he shares with his wife and has sex with her there. That afternoon after work, the wife hears a rumor that her husband was seen at the bar and the park with this woman. She goes to both locations, and she doesn't smell the woman's perfume; the bar is too contaminated with massive numbers of odors and the park is too large to figure out where the couple may have been and even the bench the couple sat on and hugged and kissed has been rained on and wind has blown through the spot. But, when the woman gets home, the fragrance of the woman's perfume hits her at the front door, is stronger in the bedroom, and when she picks up her husband's shirt off out of the laundry basket, she is nearly knocked out by the odor. There is no way she could be mistaken about the perfume in her house but just because she missed it at the bar and in the park doesn't mean the couple wasn't there as well.

This is an oversimplification of cadaver dogs and their abilities, but I just want you to get an understanding of why outdoor searches are so difficult, even for the best of dogs. Of course, if they alert on a spot in the middle of the landscape, this certainly is significant, but, not hitting anywhere does not hold the same importance as making a alert.

So, was Maddie hidden somewhere around Praia da Luz in a public area? Very possibly, in spite of the fact the dogs did not discover that place. She also could have been hidden in a private location but that would be far less likely considering the very few hours the McCanns, if they were involved, had to hide her body. They would have to find a place quickly, nearby, within walking distance, someplace they had a clue existed. The most likely possibilities would be where the McCanns had spent time, walked around or jogged past; it is night and one cannot spend hours scouring unknown rugged areas. That might come later, but it would be unlikely to occur on May 4th before the sun rose.



On the Right Side of Beach Access
Beach Access near Smith Sighting
Sometime after the locals and police had pretty much called it a night for searching, there would be an opportunity for Gerry or Gerry with Kate or Gerry with David Payne to find a good location to put Maddie's body. If I were in Gerry shoes (if he was involved in Maddie's demise and/or disappearance) and had a wife or friend to help me or if I had to do it alone, here are the places I would have considered and rejected. One is anything to the west of the area of the overturned boats (where the road accesses the beach and has good temporary hiding places; see my previous blog post).


Not a great spot to walk or hide a body
I walked further down that direction and it is very difficult to traverse it at night. Lots of craggy, uneven rocks, and no place I could find that would be a good place to stash a body. If one went back up on the road and walked down past the houses, there is a bit of an area that one could bury a body, but that burial site would be hard to disguise.


Trash Bins to East of Beach Access
There are some trash bins which could be a possibility but that would negate the later cadaver dog evidence in the hire car unless some object transferred cadaver odor to that location like a bag or clothing. However, the trash bins were searched and nothing found unless something was missed.

From the overturned boat area, there is a bit of a beach to the east, full of rocks, which then ends at a stone structure that juts into the water before the church. There were a few places to stuff a body, but I doubt a body could have stayed hidden.

There is the drain, but, again, not a good hiding place except for an hour or two.

From Center of Praia da Luz to West Beach
From the location of the church over to the rocks of the Rocha Negra, there is just beach and no real hiding places. Some have mentioned the Roman Ruins which can be accessed from the boardwalk. It is a very small enclosed location and while I did find one spot one could hide a small body, for the long run, one would think a maintenance person who worked there would find the corpse.

Paraiso Restaurant on Left
So, that leaves the Rocha Negra itself, the obsession of Kate McCann as she mentions it again and again in her book and even called the police to say she had a dream Maddie was on a slab up on the rocks. This is an area both the McCanns were familiar with. One can sit on the deck having lunch at the Paraiso Restaurant and the Rocha Negra is right in front of you. The McCanns also jogged near and on the Rocha Negra as well.

Foot of Rocha Negra on Beach
There are three possible areas one could try to hide a body on the Rocha Negra. Retired British police officer, PM, and I toured the various areas to see if there was a place we felt was more likely than others that one could move a body to in the wee hours of the morning. We located three possibilities: at the foot of the rocks on the beach or in the water, in the gullies on the slopes, and on the land on the top of the cliffs. At the foot, it first appears this is not a bad choice (above right) and, if it were low tide one could hide a body under rocks and gravel right there at the base where the cliffs meet the sand. However, in higher tide, this is not possible and one has to worry about the smell hitting sunbathers, joggers, and hikers on the beach. It is possible, but not probable. Dumping the body in the water only to have it come back in the tide or trying to pin it under a rock is not very wise if one doesn't want the body to resurface unexpectedly.
Rocks to Beach at Rocha Negra
Rex the Dog's Grave
Next, PM drove me up to the area where one can follow trails up the grassy hills to the very top of the cliffs. We found a dog, Rex, buried here, so it is possible to dig a grave, although the ground is very hard at that location and one would need a shovel to be successful. Also, while it is possible to walk or run to this location (and Gerry was in good shape), it is quite far to go carrying a child, then have to dig a grave, and run back. Furthermore, a fresh grave in the hills would be quite obvious. I didn't think it would be a good choice.

Gullies to Beach on Rocha Negra
Rocha Negra Gully
Then, PM and I explored the gullies that come down the side of the Rocha Negra. This area really sparked my interest. The gullies that were accessible from the beach were only a five minute walk from downtown Praia da Luz.

One can climb up and up (I doubt many do this for hiking as they are not very inviting) and these gullies have a massive amount of rocks and gravel in them and around them which are easy to move and cover a body with.


Finding a crevice, secreting a small body, and covering it with a pile of rocks would not take that long. On a night with a full moon, one would not even need a flashlight to accomplish this. The spot would be up and out of the way of beachcombers and a good location unless one thought cadaver dogs were going to be set loose on it. At the time Maddie went missing, no one was looking for a body and as long as an abduction was promulgated and a live child searched for, the PJ weren't bringing in cadaver dogs, which they didn't, until the McCanns became Arguidos (suspects).

Right next to the beach a few metres from the gully area is a road and public parking spaces (if one wanted to remove the body later and transport it elsewhere.





The cadaver dogs did search the Rocha Negra, ascending as far as they could from the beach. I don't know if a moved body, perhaps a well-wrapped on, might not have left a scent for the dogs to find or whether there was never a body there. But, this very accessible location on the side of the Rocha Negra would be my top choice for where I would hide a body if I only had a short period of time and couldn't go very far.

At this point, there is not enough evidence to prove in court that the McCanns are involved with the disappearance of the daughter, Madeleine, or that they moved her body or exactly where they could have moved her body if they were. But, when one puts oneself in the mind of a person desperate to hide a body, it is interesting what one sees as possibilities.

Criminal Profiler Pat Brown


http://patbrownprofiling.blogspot.com/


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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by aiyoyo on 06.03.12 11:17

Interesting !
So Pat thinks gullies in Nocha Negra could be temporary hiding place for Maddie; and that David Payne is the one who helped with the body disposal. ...Hymm, why DP, what are the signs or evidence that led Pat to conclusion on the latter?

As for Nocah Negra, posters on the other forum also think Nocha Negra as the initial body hidden place is v. plausible and possible as apparently Nocha Negra isn't far from the apt and along the route of their jogging track. In fact, Kate and Gerry were photographed having private moments below the cliff and strolling along the beach in front of it a few short days after 3/5. I read a church is situated atop the cliff and Kate and Gerry were often seen around that area.
On 9/5 Gerry was also photographed with kate's cousin Michael Wright at the same cliff area seemingly searching for something - could be looking for lost object that could incriminate them; or checking she was still in place and not dug out by dogs or something like that.

If they'd really hidden Maddie under rocks in crevices in the Nocha Negra, and Kate had phone the Police Officer about her dream that Maddie was laying on slab on rock on Cliff, intending the PJ to find her in order to give her a decent burial, but when that didn't happen and Maddie wasn't discovered by public or stray dogs either, then the mccanns were extremely lucky they managed subsequently to move her some 25 days or thereabout later in their hired car and transport her to a much farther away venue. Is that just pure luck or sound advice from family members and friends. Which begs the question if Gerry and Payne were involved in initial disposal question, who else was involved in the final disposal?

One would imagine that moving a body hidden under rocks wouldn't be too difficult since it involves no digging especially if a car is waiting in a flat area nearby. It would mean more than one person is doing that task - at least one person waiting behind the wheel and keeping a look out for human traffic while another person retrieving the body. The problem is: what about the smell? By then decomposition would make it rather difficult to move the body without contamination and unless she was wrapped or contained in a bag I would imagine the retrieval would be messy. I wonder whether there is human habitation near the area, surely the smell of a decayed body would be overwhelming if she'd been left hidden there for nearly a month?

How a re-search of Nocha Negra now is going to help the investigation is a $64 million question if she had been moved since from there. A cadaver scenting would only indicate a corpse was there but cant be used to co-relate it to Maddie unless trace objects or forensics belonging to her or her disposer/s were found on the spot to corroborate it.

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Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day and Hiding Bodies-Pat Brown

Post by sijm on 06.03.12 17:45

Just had a look at Pat,s blog and in my opinion she is in the right area when searching the Rocha Negra.

We know the Mcs were having to leave the Ocean Club in end of June.

KM made that phone call about having a dream Madeleine was on a rock shelf in July, she was obviously at a low ebb when Gerry was away from her.

The last one to hire the Scenic Renault car before the Mcs was a Dutch man, he is living near the Hague, he had a couple of kids, he stated they had also hired a childs car seat for his three year old and it was very well worn.

Portable car seats would be in use for hire cars when abroad, they can swiftly be removed and put back into a car, a perfect way to transport a little persons body late at night, a lone male would not arouse suspicion on his own with an assumed daughter in a car seat, especially when left in her pyjamas late at night.

I remember my brother inlaw having to take his little boys out in the car at around eight or nine in the evening, the cars motion would rock them to sleep, he would return home after they had nodded off, then gentle place them in bed.

Yes! One has thought about rigor mortis and flexibility of the body, but I am sure a mortician deals a lot with that, the coolest place to keep a body is in a mortary.

A reported sighting of GM was opposite the cemetery.

Where is the last place people would look for an abducted child, yes, in the mortuary, it would be such a blatent move, many bodies are kept in police mortuaries for months with only the loss of pallor and flexibility.

If a car was used to transport Maddie to that location on Rocha Negra, say on June 20-22nd, I think it is possible that she could have been temporarily removed from a cold storage area, such as a mortuary that was close to a cemetery, in readyness to be swiftly lifted out of her hidden tomb and transported to her to a final destination.

Dannie Krugel was due to arrive in July, he had a Satellite type missing person machine, she had to be removed before he arrived, because he knew where she was and had a shock when she was not there.

Based on many factual evedence such as bodies being kept in police morgues, sometimes for months, Madeleine was taken from the morgue, placed in a childs car seat, transported to a hidden tomb on Rocha Negra still left in that car seat for a day or two, later to be swiftly removed and taken on her final destination, where a service took place her body cremated before being repatriated to UK.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by aiyoyo on 06.03.12 18:21

But, Pat is saying Nocha Negra is where they hid her initially.
I have a problem with that, because she said "Sometime after the locals and police had pretty much called it a night for searching, there would be an opportunity for Gerry or Gerry with Kate or Gerry with David Payne to find a good location to put Maddie's body."

I mean
So where did Gerry leave Maddie's body meanwhile? Remember when he was spotted by Smith (allegedly) he was heading somewhere ?
The search party didn't pack it in until well past midnight, and Kate and Gerry were reported as already gone to bed and didnt join the search. Where would they get time for doing that - don't forget they would first have to retrieve the body from where Gerry hid it wouldn't they in order to take it to Nocha Negra?

Also if the body was hidden there initially until moved again in the hired car, what about the decomposition smell in the interim period?

IMHO Nocha Negra is a very plausible only if Gerry had gone there in the daylight on 3/5.
If Nocha Negra is within sight of Paradiso restaurant, as Pat Brown pointed out, could this explain the reason for witness account that Kate was seen jogging or coming back from a jog at the beach around 5.00/5.30 pm on 3/5? Could she have acted as a look out for Gerry while he went about looking for crevices to hide the body? Even in this scenario the decomposition smell is an issue if the body is only re-moved 25 days later.












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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by Willo on 06.03.12 19:07

Maybe the body was buried in a shallow grave for a day or two then moved using the blue bag and taken to another place with a freezer available. The bag might have already absorbed leaching of bodily fluids before being frozen. If the body was trussed up and sealed with plastic film moving it could have broken the seal releasing fluids. Then 25 days or so later when the frozen bag was placed in the car boot the heat over a few hours would cause the body fluid to melt leaving a deposit in the boot and the aroma of death to permeate the interior of the car. Thus having later to leave the back door of the car open to help dissipate the smell.
The bag would have been then buried properly or handed over to an accomplice to whisk it away to a place unknown to finally make sure the body would never be found.

Maybe the dogs indicated on Kate's clothes because Gerry gave her a reassuring hug on returning from his endeavours before changing clothes. Leaving Kate contaminated.
His soiled clothes were got shot of and he changed into identical attire which he bought back from England.


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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by Nina on 06.03.12 19:40

Willo wrote:Maybe the body was buried in a shallow grave for a day or two then moved using the blue bag and taken to another place with a freezer available. The bag might have already absorbed leaching of bodily fluids before being frozen. If the body was trussed up and sealed with plastic film moving it could have broken the seal releasing fluids. Then 25 days or so later when the frozen bag was placed in the car boot the heat over a few hours would cause the body fluid to melt leaving a deposit in the boot and the aroma of death to permeate the interior of the car. Thus having later to leave the back door of the car open to help dissipate the smell.
The bag would have been then buried properly or handed over to an accomplice to whisk it away to a place unknown to finally make sure the body would never be found.

Maybe the dogs indicated on Kate's clothes because Gerry gave her a reassuring hug on returning from his endeavours before changing clothes. Leaving Kate contaminated.
His soiled clothes were got shot of and he changed into identical attire which he bought back from England.


Hi Willo, Unless there was an injury there wouldn't be bodily fluids if all the orifices were packed with cotton wool or similar. It would be just clean skin. However days down the line this smooth skin would break and there would be leakage.

For me the smell and structure of a decomposing unfrozen body would make it impossible to move all those days later in the car unless it was shrouded and wrapped in heavy duty plastic and taped.

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Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day and Hiding Bodies-Pat Brown

Post by sijm on 06.03.12 19:42

I feel Pat has hit the right area but wrong sequence, there was preparation I feel for the repatriation of Madeleine's remains to UK in June/July.

The only hope now to gather proof that Madeleine died back in 2007 (I strongly believe she deserves some sort of closure, so she can rest in peace) then some kind of proof must be found, maybe a dog search of the rock crevice in the area that Pat pointed out to us she may have been hidden.

It could be searched by Eddie, hopefully he can pick up bits of Madeleine's blood/ DNA from the area, like from a small wound to her knee when she fell up those aircraft steps or any other wounds she has sustained.

As for pinning down the perpetrator's only the lawyers can do that.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by listener on 06.03.12 22:39

Could some kind soul please point out to me where Nocha Negra is? flower

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by aiyoyo on 07.03.12 3:08

listener wrote:Could some kind soul please point out to me where Nocha Negra is? flower

Hi Listener

I'm probably not the best person (until someone who has been there comes along), my educated deduction is Nocha Negra is along the same coast line as the resort and not far from the resort complex, maybe 15 -20 minutes or so (guessing this bit) by foot judging by the frequency Kate and Gerry strolled there.

From what I read there's a promenade mall and church atop the cliff probably accessible by dry land route.

If you click onto this link http://newsprints.co.uk/search/f/k/u/6/gerry%20mccann
you will see Gerry and Kate's cousin Michael Wright drinking from cans at the promenade on 9/5, same day as they were seen searching below the cliff on rocky water.

And if you click on "next" and continue going a few pages forward you will see photos dated 13/5 of Gerry and Kate at the same cliff. A couple of photos show Gerry's back to the sea with Kate seated down but probably having pte convo away from surveillance lip read then a few photos further down them strolling at the beach in front of it cliff.

Gerry and Michael Wright search around the rocky area is posted on another thread if I am not wrong. Can't think where for the moment but will point you the direction when I remember.





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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by PeterMac on 07.03.12 7:46

ROCHA Negra, black rock.
It is just along the beach to the East of Praia. The sandstone cliffs come right out into the sea, hence the lovely beach, and in the centre is a black rock formation, possibly basalt, which pokes out even further as it is not so susceptible to erosion.
Have a look on maps.google. You can zoom in to an astonishing degree of detail.
On the very top of the sandstone bit is a trig. point. and going back (north, obviously) there is the golf course. - In Edgar's famous lawless hinterland

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by roy rovers on 07.03.12 8:41

I don't know why in everything that I read by Pat she assumes the date of 3 May 2007 as a 'given' and a starting point for her theories of what could have happened. There is lots of work on this site alone that suggests an earlier date. The Mccanns set the agenda at that date by making it their date of the 'abduction' but many many facts suggest otherwise. Is Pat barking up the wrong tree?

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by david_uk on 07.03.12 8:50

roy rovers wrote:I don't know why in everything that I read by Pat she assumes the date of 3 May 2007 as a 'given' and a starting point for her theories of what could have happened. There is lots of work on this site alone that suggests an earlier date. The Mccanns set the agenda at that date by making it their date of the 'abduction' but many many facts suggest otherwise. Is Pat barking up the wrong tree?



She may very well be!. But GA is set to that date also, maybe she wants to keep some symmetry with his theory?.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by david_uk on 07.03.12 8:58

sijm wrote:Just had a look at Pat,s blog and in my opinion she is in the right area when searching the Rocha Negra.

We know the Mcs were having to leave the Ocean Club in end of June.

KM made that phone call about having a dream Madeleine was on a rock shelf in July, she was obviously at a low ebb when Gerry was away from her.

The last one to hire the Scenic Renault car before the Mcs was a Dutch man, he is living near the Hague, he had a couple of kids, he stated they had also hired a childs car seat for his three year old and it was very well worn.

Portable car seats would be in use for hire cars when abroad, they can swiftly be removed and put back into a car, a perfect way to transport a little persons body late at night, a lone male would not arouse suspicion on his own with an assumed daughter in a car seat, especially when left in her pyjamas late at night.

I remember my brother inlaw having to take his little boys out in the car at around eight or nine in the evening, the cars motion would rock them to sleep, he would return home after they had nodded off, then gentle place them in bed.

Yes! One has thought about rigor mortis and flexibility of the body, but I am sure a mortician deals a lot with that, the coolest place to keep a body is in a mortary.

A reported sighting of GM was opposite the cemetery.

Where is the last place people would look for an abducted child, yes, in the mortuary, it would be such a blatent move, many bodies are kept in police mortuaries for months with only the loss of pallor and flexibility.

If a car was used to transport Maddie to that location on Rocha Negra, say on June 20-22nd, I think it is possible that she could have been temporarily removed from a cold storage area, such as a mortuary that was close to a cemetery, in readyness to be swiftly lifted out of her hidden tomb and transported to her to a final destination.

Dannie Krugel was due to arrive in July, he had a Satellite type missing person machine, she had to be removed before he arrived, because he knew where she was and had a shock when she was not there.

Based on many factual evedence such as bodies being kept in police morgues, sometimes for months, Madeleine was taken from the morgue, placed in a childs car seat, transported to a hidden tomb on Rocha Negra still left in that car seat for a day or two, later to be swiftly removed and taken on her final destination, where a service took place her body cremated before being repatriated to UK.



I assume your kidding with this theory?...right?

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by PeterMac on 07.03.12 9:18

david_uk wrote:
I assume you're kidding with this theory?...right?
I certainly hope so !

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by aiyoyo on 07.03.12 9:35

david_uk wrote:
roy rovers wrote:I don't know why in everything that I read by Pat she assumes the date of 3 May 2007 as a 'given' and a starting point for her theories of what could have happened. There is lots of work on this site alone that suggests an earlier date. The Mccanns set the agenda at that date by making it their date of the 'abduction' but many many facts suggest otherwise. Is Pat barking up the wrong tree?



She may very well be!. But GA is set to that date also, maybe she wants to keep some symmetry with his theory?.


Yes, she seems to rely on data in public domain for her theory.
Trouble is she didnt state whether Nocha Negra is primary or secondary temporary place until final resting spot.
She seems also to give credence to smithy's man as Gerry - that being the case I wonder where she think Gerry dumped Maddie that was not searched nor detected by dogs before moving her again to Nocha Negra post search party. And, what would be the possible reason for Gerry to rush off in a hurry with an uncovered body and where he was going with it since Nocha Negra was in opp direction.

A domestic homicide has no outside witness so why did Gerry jeopardise himself by rushing off, risking been seen in the direction he knew full could be used by people accessing the other drinking hole. He must know that since he and his friends had used it previously unless that is not the only way to the other Bar. Anyhow the timing is off imo - smith saw the man at 9.50/9.55 pm and kate raised the alarm at 10.00pm. So literally Gerry had to go round the corner, dumped Maddie quickly then sprinted back to the tapas bar in time for the alarm.

It does not make sense to me that a bunch of doctors, well even if not a bunch, then a pair of doctors would jeopardise their position by doing something impulsively stupid as carting a body away in a mad rush, thoughtless, and without planning manner. That is not in accord with the mccanns control freak characteristic neither is it in accord with psychology of normal people who found themselves in a domestic homicide situation.

Personally I doubt Smithy's man is Gerry - jmo of course.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by david_uk on 07.03.12 9:38

PeterMac wrote:
david_uk wrote:
I assume you're kidding with this theory?...right?
I certainly hope so !



glad im not the only person that think driving around with dead child in a car seat is slightly ott!

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Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day and Hiding Bodies-Pat Brown

Post by sijm on 07.03.12 13:50

Yes, I know it sounds macabre, but I have my reasons for forming this theory.

Can one of you tell me the difference in stuffing an almost four year old child's body into a golf/tennis bag, or burying it and digging it up again to move it,( as many theories suggest) are any less macabre.

I ask, how can those obscene, cold acts as mentioned above, show more respect then gently laying the child's body in a car seat with a towel or pink blanket (maybe like the blanket Dannie Krugel found the cliff top) to cover her, so as to transport her from one destination to another, possibly for someone to pick her up later and whoosh her away quickly for time spent at the location would mean more risk.

As for the possibility of being kept in the morgue until those last moves for the last journey home, some of the most blatant crimes have been commited with an air of arragance, where, the perpetrators think they can outwit those who persue them, and I must addmit, it would have been the last place I would have looked for Madeleine, that is until the parents were made suspects.

I know if a child of mine had been demised in the same way, no way I would leave her in a foreign land and no way could I double her up in a bag like an animal or bury my child to have her dig up again, it has to be a clean , swift, operation with respect for my lost child.

Putting myself in that situation, I probably would even wash her and groom her for the last time, perhaps even trim her hair, cut her nails as a loving mothers last act for her last journey home.

Hence the hair, hence the nails, hence the clean up, all done out of an odd sense of love.

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Blanket on Rocha Negra?

Post by worriedmum on 07.03.12 14:16

sijm, where have you read that Dannie Krugel found a blanket on Rocha Negra, please?

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by Guest on 07.03.12 14:30

sijm wrote:Yes, I know it sounds macabre, but I have my reasons for forming this theory.

Can one of you tell me the difference in stuffing an almost four year old child's body into a golf/tennis bag, or burying it and digging it up again to move it,( as many theories suggest) are any less macabre.

I ask, how can those obscene, cold acts as mentioned above, show more respect then gently laying the child's body in a car seat with a towel or pink blanket (maybe like the blanket Dannie Krugel found the cliff top) to cover her, so as to transport her from one destination to another, possibly for someone to pick her up later and whoosh her away quickly for time spent at the location would mean more risk.

As for the possibility of being kept in the morgue until those last moves for the last journey home, some of the most blatant crimes have been commited with an air of arragance, where, the perpetrators think they can outwit those who persue them, and I must addmit, it would have been the last place I would have looked for Madeleine, that is until the parents were made suspects.

I know if a child of mine had been demised in the same way, no way I would leave her in a foreign land and no way could I double her up in a bag like an animal or bury my child to have her dig up again, it has to be a clean , swift, operation with respect for my lost child.

Putting myself in that situation, I probably would even wash her and groom her for the last time, perhaps even trim her hair, cut her nails as a loving mothers last act for her last journey home.

Hence the hair, hence the nails, hence the clean up, all done out of an odd sense of love.


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Criminal Profiler Topic of the Day and Hiding Bodies-Pat Brown

Post by sijm on 07.03.12 14:41

worriedmum.

It was on Dannie Krugels site, he said it was dirty and he wished he had picked it up.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by PeterMac on 07.03.12 14:44

sijm wrote:worriedmum.

It was on Dannie Krugels site, he said it was dirty and he wished he had picked it up.
A guy looking for evidence finds some, but then does nothing ?
Come off it !!

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by david_uk on 07.03.12 15:05

sijm wrote:Yes, I know it sounds macabre, but I have my reasons for forming this theory.

Can one of you tell me the difference in stuffing an almost four year old child's body into a golf/tennis bag, or burying it and digging it up again to move it,( as many theories suggest) are any less macabre.

I ask, how can those obscene, cold acts as mentioned above, show more respect then gently laying the child's body in a car seat with a towel or pink blanket (maybe like the blanket Dannie Krugel found the cliff top) to cover her, so as to transport her from one destination to another, possibly for someone to pick her up later and whoosh her away quickly for time spent at the location would mean more risk.

As for the possibility of being kept in the morgue until those last moves for the last journey home, some of the most blatant crimes have been commited with an air of arragance, where, the perpetrators think they can outwit those who persue them, and I must addmit, it would have been the last place I would have looked for Madeleine, that is until the parents were made suspects.

I know if a child of mine had been demised in the same way, no way I would leave her in a foreign land and no way could I double her up in a bag like an animal or bury my child to have her dig up again, it has to be a clean , swift, operation with respect for my lost child.

Putting myself in that situation, I probably would even wash her and groom her for the last time, perhaps even trim her hair, cut her nails as a loving mothers last act for her last journey home.

Hence the hair, hence the nails, hence the clean up, all done out of an odd sense of love.



you know what, im not even going to reply to your posts after this, you kinda give me the creeps if im honest.



and are we really giving any credance to Krugel and his magic box!..seriously... Might as well get a water diviner in! askhim to tweak it to find bodies and liars!...

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Danie Krugel

Post by Guest on 07.03.12 15:23

Some information about him from the McCann files.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id304.html

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by annabel on 07.03.12 15:35


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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: On Moving and Hiding Bodies - Pat Brown

Post by Guest on 07.03.12 15:35

PeterMac wrote:
sijm wrote:worriedmum.

It was on Dannie Krugels site, he said it was dirty and he wished he had picked it up.
A guy looking for evidence finds some, but then does nothing ?
Come off it !!

Krugels blanket was white and pink, Maddie's all pink. It's a non starter.

It feels like groundhog day again.

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