Substitute child?

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Re: Substitute child?

Post  Ribisl on Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:05 pm

tigger wrote:Ribisl suggested in the closed topic to start one on this subject.

We would have to look at:
How she is described by people who did not know her.
How she is described by people who did know her.
What the reason for the substitution might be.
Why the risk of a substitution was worth it.

Argument for:
Based on character alone.

Maddie was described by some of the staff at the creche as a shy and quiet child.

This is in complete contrast with evidence from the family and her parents.
Grandmother: that girl was a screamer.
Kate: she'll be giving her tuppence worth.

Video - the last video in the hallway (it's also on the topic Maddie what was wrong with her?) shows her running op and down the hall.
In this video there are many shots that do not show a healthy child imo. The answers lies with Maddie as she really was imo. Not in the fairy tale spun by TM.

Kate's book: she needed constant attention.



Just wanted to say a quick thank you for starting this thread. As I have stated before I am not at all convinced that there was a substitute Madeleine but I would like to see all the evidence available and hear all the arguments that support the case. I am particularly interested in your third point ie why any of you think they needed a substitute.

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Re: Substitute child?

Post  dentdelion on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:03 pm

Yes I cannot figure out this either? how could you have a three year old be trained in to the 'plan' eg she would have to answer to name Maddie, greet her parents when they came to collect her etc. It does not add up.

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Re: Substitute child?

Post  No Fate Worse Than De'Ath on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:10 pm

I can appreciate that any suggestion of there being another child passed off for Madeleine will have the pros cackling with glee over their cauldrons.

However, the evidence does suggest that she was no longer around prior to 3rd May and, as a child was still being signed in to the creche, I can't at the moment think of any other alternative.

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Re: Substitute child?

Post  russiandoll on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:27 pm

dentdelion wrote:Yes I cannot figure out this either? how could you have a three year old be trained in to the 'plan' eg she would have to answer to name Maddie, greet her parents when they came to collect her etc. It does not add up.


It would be interesting to know how the child in creche greeted Kate McCann in particular, as she says in her book that she loved it when she would pick Maddie up from her nursery in UK and poignantly describes the child running to her and throwing her arms around her as if to claim her as her mother... an expressive, excited greeting.

Yes the sub idea seems far fetched but needs consideration. It will surely be dismissed as a theory eventually if it does not seem plausible given the hard evidence.
One thing I wondered...could they not have given a plausible explanation for Maddie not attending for a few days? They were not obliged to stick to a rigid routine as far as the MW staff were concerned?

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Re: Substitute child?

Post  Ribisl on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:30 pm

I wholly agree with genbug's point of view and see little merit in discussing our impressions of Madeleine from various photographs. We won't get anywhere except agreeing to disagree because impressions are totally subjective.

In order to establish whether there was indeed a substitute, I think we need to concentrate on two points:
1. Can we prove that Madeleine was dead prior to her 'disappearance' on 3rd May?
2. Are there reliable witnesses to confirm 'Madeleine' was around on 3rd May?

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Re: Substitute child?

Post  rainbow-fairy on Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:47 pm

Ribisl wrote:I wholly agree with genbug's point of view and see little merit in discussing our impressions of Madeleine from various photographs. We won't get anywhere except agreeing to disagree because impressions are totally subjective.

In order to establish whether there was indeed a substitute, I think we need to concentrate on two points:
1. Can we prove that Madeleine was dead prior to her 'disappearance' on 3rd May?

No. How can we prove that? We can't prove she died before the 3rd, after the 3rd or even on the 3rd.
2. Are there reliable witnesses to confirm 'Madeleine' was around on 3rd May?

Not many! HiDeHo compiled a list of witnesses who claimed they saw Maddie, but it was proven most were actually mistaken - the cleaner on the Sunday is apparently the most reliable of the lot, however I think a question mark hangs over her evidence too.

That leaves us with the Tapas say-so. After all, how would independent witnesses really know which child was which?


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Re: Substitute child?

Post  tigger on Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:05 pm

As to point one: only circumstantial - very significant activity on the telephone - very unusual for a holiday where they were so 'into' each other that they didn't want to take mobiles or watches to the Tapas Bar.
The activities of third parties such as Murat - the fact that Murat booked in the early morning of the 30th April to fly to Faro.
The fact that Murat and Gerry's phone pings coincide and that both switched their phones off and on at exactly the same time on the ? 2nd May I think (sorry def. pre 3/5) . The later fact that Gerry would not say whether he knew Murat or not.

As to point two: No truly independent witnesses imo. None of the T7 would qualify imo. certainly not David Payne - his account of seeing Madeleine in the evening varies wildly from that of Kate. It is highly suspect. I believe this statement only surfaced after Amaral wanted evidence of Maddie being alive on the 3rd. There are several different versions of it.

As for other witnesses Brigit Wilkins said there were [b]10 little blond 3 yr olds[/b] at the creche and the parents joked about how hard it was to tell them apart. On the fourth of May another guest told the press that Maddie was a small girl with very blond hair.
There simply aren't any reliable witnesses.

It is interesting that the only conversations between the parents and Maddie occur on the 3rd.
The 'why didn't you come when I cried?' which was much changed and Maddie telling her mother in the evening that she 'had the best day ever'. Two conversations reported on the 3rd, none for the rest of the holiday. Two points in the day when she had to have been alive - according to the parents who are the only witnesses.

You may say that the photographic evidence is objective, but the video above does show a child that isn't totally healthy, to put it mildly.
The clip at .50 is very worrying, she looks as if she has hydrocephalus. Her medical records were denied, but must still exist somewhere.


Last edited by tigger on Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Substitute child?

Post  alison on Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:16 pm

The nanny Catriona Baker claims that she saw Madeleine on the 3rd May.

Presumably she would be considered an independent witness and her testimony is presumably part of the evidence which led Amaral to conclude that Madeleine was still alive on 3rd May.

But of course that depends on (a) whether the girl she saw was actually Madeleine or (b) she was leaned on by the Mccanns to be "helpful". She was one of the individuals asked by the Mccanns to be witnessed as part of the rogatory procedure.
I am not sure if any of us know what the creche check in procedure was in any detail. Did parents bringing their children into the creche sign the sheets in front of the nannies? Or was it much more haphazard than that?

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Re: Substitute child?

Post  uppatoffee on Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:35 pm

dentdelion wrote:Yes I cannot figure out this either? how could you have a three year old be trained in to the 'plan' eg she would have to answer to name Maddie, greet her parents when they came to collect her etc. It does not add up.


If there was a substitute whose name was Madalene then that would make that a bit easier.

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Re: Substitute child?

Post  finch on Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:48 pm

Looking at the vid at .23, I always thought that picture was not Madeleine but a young Kate. Although I see the fleck in her eye, these are two different eyes (the right one much smaller). Kate has two different eyes too.

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