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Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

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Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by Guest on 20.02.12 13:48

The first thing that made me look closer on this case was the JT sighting. Because the way she saw the "child bundle" beeing carried means that M must have been turned around at some point inside the apartment for the feet to point in JT direction.

But when you look at the picture from PJ files from the room, the bed that M allegadly was taken from looks like no one has slept in it. The other bed defently look like someone slept (atleast) in it..
IF JT sighting had been real( I dont believe so) and how she descripe how he carried M , it would be more logical to assume that M ws sleeping in the other bed(under the window) when she was taken..But they don't claime so-- ( one mistake in their lie maybe? not thinking of which bed would have given that possition ?)

So is this bed hiding something ? K making a big deal out of her sleeping there one night beeing irritated with Gerry.. The window lie etc..

Just thoughts coming to my head , unlogical just like this whole case.. I just feel that there is something not told here about the beds, sleep arrangements and so on..

So what if M was really sleeping in the other bed, why lie about that ? thinking

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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by mmmlindz on 20.02.12 15:00

was maddies bed the one under the window or the one on the wall behind the door?

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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by tigger on 20.02.12 15:39

Moa , this is from Dr. Roberts, Mccannfiles, analyses of media interviews 2009.


2. Sleeping arrangements

Jane Hill, we notice, spares the interviewees from having to describe the situation in apartment 5A that Thursday night, by telling them what happened herself! But is her supposition confirmed? No, it is not.

KM (interviewed for BBC Breakfast TV): "Is it right for somebody to go into your apartment and take your child out [of] your bed?"

During an interview for commercial television we get the following exchange:

Q: "...everyone's been asking each other the question: 'Would you have left them?' and I've asked myself the same thing... But there must... you must look back and think: 'We did the wrong thing.'"
KM: "I mean, the restaurant where we were eating, errm... is on the complex where we're staying and I think the... diagrams that were maybe shown at the beginning of all of this, don't really portray how close it actually is. Errm... I mean, we've said before, it was a little bit... we think it was quite similar to – on a summer's evening at home – eating in your garden, while the children are in your bed, you know, it's that close, errm... you know."
unquote.

Jolly interesting, what with JT saying she carried the child - the position of the child on the arms is now explained, if it is the bed on the left.

I also seem to remember that the dogs alerted to one of the beds in Kate and Gerry's bedroom? If that was the same bed, I think we've got something.


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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by tigger on 20.02.12 15:40

@mmmlindz wrote:was maddies bed the one under the window or the one on the wall behind the door?

Officially it was the bed behind the door, so not under the window. But according to the PJ, the bed showed no evidence of anyone having been in or on it.

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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by tigger on 20.02.12 15:50

From mccannfiles on the results of the dogs in 5a.


Seach of Apartment 5A, summary from 'The Truth of the Lie'

- Evening of 3 August, Portuguese and UK investigators begin at Ocean Club, Apt 5A

- Martin leads in Eddie and tells him to sit at the front door, so that he can remove the leash. Contrary to expectations of this wonder dog-detective, Eddie ignored the command and ran immediately to the interior of the apt, where he ran "devilishly" from the living room to the parent's bedroom. Grimes says worriedly that something has made Eddie nervous and he calls Eddie again so that he can give orders to indicate where to start searching. An investigator is video taping. Some minutes later, Eddie focuses on the floor of the couple's bedroom, next to the wardrobe and gives the alert for cadaver odor, in a strident bark

- Why here, in the couple's room? More goosebumps to follow: Eddie gives another strident bark next to the living room wall, behind the blue sofa, under the window.

- Apt 5A begins to give up its mystery.

- On that night, before 10pm, the investigators see Gerald McCann near the apartment, driving alone in the rented Renault with the face of one "who has few friends."

- If the cadaver (EVRD) dog alerts, then the blood (CSI) dog is brought in. They are trained to find ONLY human blood, even in areas thoroughly cleaned with chemicals or bleaches. Sometimes they find blood vestiges so small that they can't be collected, and the surrounding materials themselves have to be transported to the lab. This happened with Keela.

- Keela is brought in and she marks blood in the same place as Eddie marked the cadaver smell... she stopped, immobile, with her nose pointed at the precise location of the smell. The tiles on the floor.

- Outside, Eddie gives two more alerts of cadaver smell, on the varanda of the couple's bedroom and also in a garden situation directly below it. Here, the bark is weaker, like a "could be", with some doubt, like a human shrugging their shoulders.

unquote.

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very interesting new thinking Moa

Post by bobbin on 20.02.12 16:15

Very interesting Moa.

Could the beds have been swapped round.

Could “Maddie’s bed” have been moved into the parents’ bedroom, and one of the parents’ ‘used beds’ be moved into the children’s room.

Kate says she slept in the bed under the window on the night she rowed with Gerry, so her DNA would be ‘excused’ if found on the sheets etc.

With one spare bed at all times, the ‘clean one’ could easily be the one Maddie was ‘supposed’ to have slept in, namely by the door, but which showed no signs of her having been in it.

If the ‘swapped bed’ was by the mirror wardrobe in the parents’ room, is that sufficiently close to where the cadaver dog barked.

Now that it’s possible to think of swapping beds around, could beds from other apartments substitute.

Does anyone know if the beds in the parents’ room were identical to the ones in the children’s room?

If the ‘body’ were laid up in the parents’ room, it would be quite easy to move it through patio doors, down the back alley, in the dark, perhaps resting on the garden whilst annoying passers by are conversing about tennis that day.

AIMO and just yet another theory to be contemplating, or would Gerry have it, ‘purport’ since he is not averse to people ‘purporting theories’.

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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by tigger on 20.02.12 16:46

Bobbin, if you read e.g. the creche records, various other threads, you'll find that there is a very high probability that Maddie died very early in the holiday the 1st of May at the latest.
A death on the night of the 3rd or even during the day has been exhaustively discussed and was found to be impossible.
The body was long gone by the evening of the 3rd. No body waiting in the shrubbery to be picked up.
Changing beds round seems quite difficult, surely it's easier to just change places? Which seems to be what happened. The dogs didn't alert in the children's bedroom.

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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by Guest on 20.02.12 18:16

@tigger wrote:Moa , this is from Dr. Roberts, Mccannfiles, analyses of media interviews 2009.


2. Sleeping arrangements

Jane Hill, we notice, spares the interviewees from having to describe the situation in apartment 5A that Thursday night, by telling them what happened herself! But is her supposition confirmed? No, it is not.

KM (interviewed for BBC Breakfast TV): "Is it right for somebody to go into your apartment and take your child out [of] your bed?"

During an interview for commercial television we get the following exchange:

Q: "...everyone's been asking each other the question: 'Would you have left them?' and I've asked myself the same thing... But there must... you must look back and think: 'We did the wrong thing.'"
KM: "I mean, the restaurant where we were eating, errm... is on the complex where we're staying and I think the... diagrams that were maybe shown at the beginning of all of this, don't really portray how close it actually is. Errm... I mean, we've said before, it was a little bit... we think it was quite similar to – on a summer's evening at home – eating in your garden, while the children are in your bed, you know, it's that close, errm... you know."
unquote.

Jolly interesting, what with JT saying she carried the child - the position of the child on the arms is now explained, if it is the bed on the left.

I also seem to remember that the dogs alerted to one of the beds in Kate and Gerry's bedroom? If that was the same bed, I think we've got something.


I got that tought watching the vid you resently postet about JT saying SHE carried the child...And then this topic was born..

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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by Guest on 20.02.12 18:36

Just to think out loud and crazy ( this topic should really be put in together with tiggers reasent topic about JT freudian slip, as is where my thoughts where born for this topic, if thats okey with Tigger and admin ?)

So if we belive JT that she carried the child...to play with that tought, what can indicate shes telling the truth?

* Jt saw the abducter, first she couldnt see the sex of the person, woman, man, then man (if she carried , brain try to tell truth, she first wasnt sure of the sex, then maybe a woman before desiding on a man just because thats safest if she really was the "abductor")

* Time line -. Gerry left apartment 2-5 min before JT saw the abducter, it almost feels like Gerry was in there prepering the whole "abduction". before going out making sure the coast is clear. He meets wilkinson(?name), and cross the road to stop him for a chat, was that to keep him from going further up? (normaly you will say hi and carry on in a hurry to your dinner waiting ?...)`

* Wilkinson or what his name was, never saw JT passing them, and so says Gerry ( because he knew she wasn't? he can agree with wilkinson and dont have to lie to much? )

* The way she described the carrying of the child is also odd, I find it hard to believe that an abductor would carry a child like that,but if she carried her over the shoulders, she would ofcourse tell something furthest away from the truth. And ends up with this odd carring / carrying position. story.?


But why? And where? For what reason ?

IF she's telling a freudian slip, and not just honestly out of nervoussnes wrongly saying it was her ....

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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by tigger on 20.02.12 18:51

IMO there was no body to be moved that late. Maddy was gone and what JT is talking about is the actual 'handover' (read forensic linguistics or Dr. Roberts) of the body to a third party? Who would store the body in a freezer? Some nights before, or possibly the 2nd of May.
There is an ongoing connection between JT and Murat, both their mtDNA (not good enough for courts) was found in Burgau and a car associated with the apartment.
JT and Murat lived quite close to each other in Devon.
It's very likely that Gerry knew Murat.

Imo she is describing the abductor pretty nearly as the way Gerry was dressed on the evening of the 3rd. I am convinced that the Smiths' sighting was Gerry, we only have the T9 word for it that he was at the table.
Gerry wanted to be seen, but not recognized. He had an alibi ready for that time. He wasn't carrying a dead child, just a borrowed, live one.
So the police would have been presented with two sightings roughly the same man.
My feeling is still that the weird way this abductor carried the child, she was describing how she carried the child a short distance herself.

although I like Christabel's idea of Boris Karloff made up for something as well - mind you I've seen some photos of Gerry that look quite frightening..



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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by Guest on 20.02.12 19:05

Well that could also be, it happened at some point, just not in the way and at the time they describe..
The smiths sighting is also interresting. Maye K+G just where lucky that night, by coinsident a man was carrying a child, and smiths later on thought this was Gerry or atleast Madeleine?

Because after the fact that they said it was Gerry, K+ G still bring that sighting up as important, and mention it also in her book. So this sighting I believe is important for K and G to keep up in the media and elsewhere, but maybe not for the reasons they wants us to believe? we know how they treath people dearing to accuse them or say something bad about them...Not like this, even mentioning them in their beewk in a positiv way..

Maybe it just fitted so perfectly into their fairytale?

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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by tigger on 20.02.12 20:13

Moa wrote:Well that could also be, it happened at some point, just not in the way and at the time they describe..
The smiths sighting is also interresting. Maye K+G just where lucky that night, by coinsident a man was carrying a child, and smiths later on thought this was Gerry or atleast Madeleine?

Because after the fact that they said it was Gerry, K+ G still bring that sighting up as important, and mention it also in her book. So this sighting I believe is important for K and G to keep up in the media and elsewhere, but maybe not for the reasons they wants us to believe? we know how they treath people dearing to accuse them or say something bad about them...Not like this, even mentioning them in their beewk in a positiv way..

Maybe it just fitted so perfectly into their fairytale?

I would have to check, but the very interesting thing about the Smiths' sighting is that they didn't take any notice of it initially. They talked it down, so to speak and only in the book, the Smiths are suddenly in favour and it's the PJ again who hasn't properly followed it up.
The thing is that the Smiths recognized the way he held the child when they saw him leave the aircraft in September. I'm rather swayed by that. The McCanns on many photographs carry their children like so many bags of shopping, not at all comfortable for the child and not in an affectionate way.

The initial statement of the Smiths was on the 26th may 07. See mccannfiles, type in 'smith statement'.

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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 20.02.12 20:18

@tigger wrote:IMO there was no body to be moved that late. Maddy was gone and what JT is talking about is the actual 'handover' (read forensic linguistics or Dr. Roberts) of the body to a third party? Who would store the body in a freezer? Some nights before, or possibly the 2nd of May.
There is an ongoing connection between JT and Murat, both their mtDNA (not good enough for courts) was found in Burgau and a car associated with the apartment.
JT and Murat lived quite close to each other in Devon.
It's very likely that Gerry knew Murat.

Imo she is describing the abductor pretty nearly as the way Gerry was dressed on the evening of the 3rd. I am convinced that the Smiths' sighting was Gerry, we only have the T9 word for it that he was at the table.
Gerry wanted to be seen, but not recognized. He had an alibi ready for that time. He wasn't carrying a dead child, just a borrowed, live one.
So the police would have been presented with two sightings roughly the same man.
My feeling is still that the weird way this abductor carried the child, she was describing how she carried the child a short distance herself.

although I like Christabel's idea of Boris Karloff made up for something as well - mind you I've seen some photos of Gerry that look quite frightening..


tigger, I agree.
My thinking is, Maddie was already 'taken' by the 3rd, Thursday was just 'performance night'. Staging.
Many have said they believe the Smith sighting to be a collaboration to get Murat off the hook. I don't agree. I believe Mr Smith did see Gerry, albeit not with Madeleine - perhaps Amelie??? I think it may well be that Gerry attempted the staged carrying earlier, but due to presence of Jez was unable to complete. This would explain why Gerry went to 'check' so soon after Matt's 'check' - Matt said 'Coast Clear' but it wasn't, hence pushing the staged carrying back to not long before Kate's 'discovery'.
Its said that 'Gerry' averted his face when near the Smiths, it must've been a hideous shock when Mr Smith identified him! IMO, it was imperative for one of the Tapas to 'see' the 'abductor', and what better time than when Gerry was 'alibi'd' talking to Jez? They had no choice but to recognise the Smith sighting and link it to the 'abductor'. If they didn't mention it at all, it would look VERY suspect.
This is my take - I just hope it makes sense!

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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by tigger on 21.02.12 7:14

Yes RB, it finally makes sense to me.
The stage setting: shutters were chosen because absolutely the only exit Maddie could not open herself, blanket, cuddle cat - they've taken her.
Abductor seen twice, once by a friend, once by totally independent witness(es).
Could never understand why discrepancy in time - and why JT didn't come forward sooner. Because JW threw out the timing - the fact that it gave G an alibi was more important.
All T7 gave him an alibi for around 10.00. The Smiths' sighting may have been the 'disaster' he was reporting on the phone to the family. Because they were all spread over the road, Gerry was seen from various angles.
Then we see the beige trousers with buttons thrown on the bed, photographed. So he must have changed into other clothes when he came back.
When the Smiths' didn't come forward immediately, the back-up sighting was elaborated, getting more and more specific. For a few weeks, this sighting was the only one?





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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 21.02.12 7:40

@tigger wrote:Yes RB, it finally makes sense to me.
The stage setting: shutters were chosen because absolutely the only exit Maddie could not open herself, blanket, cuddle cat - they've taken her.
Abductor seen twice, once by a friend, once by totally independent witness(es).
Could never understand why discrepancy in time - and why JT didn't come forward sooner. Because JW threw out the timing - the fact that it gave G an alibi was more important.
All T7 gave him an alibi for around 10.00. The Smiths' sighting may have been the 'disaster' he was reporting on the phone to the family. Because they were all spread over the road, Gerry was seen from various angles.
Then we see the beige trousers with buttons thrown on the bed, photographed. So he must have changed into other clothes when he came back.
When the Smiths' didn't come forward immediately, the back-up sighting was elaborated, getting more and more specific. For a few weeks, this sighting was the only one?




That would be it tigger.
I believe that Gerry's expedition was intentional, so he could be 'seen but not seen'. When he was seen at such close quarters, they hoped nobody would come forward. Smiths did, and more damningly finally said they were certain it was Gerry - what else could they do but try to meld it into 'the abductor' from forty minutes earlier? Ridiculous, but no choice...

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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by Guest on 21.02.12 8:17

@rainbow-fairy wrote:
@tigger wrote:Yes RB, it finally makes sense to me.
The stage setting: shutters were chosen because absolutely the only exit Maddie could not open herself, blanket, cuddle cat - they've taken her.
Abductor seen twice, once by a friend, once by totally independent witness(es).
Could never understand why discrepancy in time - and why JT didn't come forward sooner. Because JW threw out the timing - the fact that it gave G an alibi was more important.
All T7 gave him an alibi for around 10.00. The Smiths' sighting may have been the 'disaster' he was reporting on the phone to the family. Because they were all spread over the road, Gerry was seen from various angles.
Then we see the beige trousers with buttons thrown on the bed, photographed. So he must have changed into other clothes when he came back.
When the Smiths' didn't come forward immediately, the back-up sighting was elaborated, getting more and more specific. For a few weeks, this sighting was the only one?




That would be it tigger.
I believe that Gerry's expedition was intentional, so he could be 'seen but not seen'. When he was seen at such close quarters, they hoped nobody would come forward. Smiths did, and more damningly finally said they were certain it was Gerry - what else could they do but try to meld it into 'the abductor' from forty minutes earlier? Ridiculous, but no choice...

Indeed very interresting thoughts ! Ofcourse they had to try melt it into the abduction Im not sure when smiths saw Gerry in the news the first time, but it was only after he saw G carry Sean of the plane that he thought the abductor he saw was infact Gerry himself..Smiths saw someone that night, and that person has never comed forward so for that reason I believe the person was involved. BUT it cant have been a "normal" abductor because of the timeline from JT sighting to their sighting. But if JT is lying then ofcourse everything changes, because the JT sighting timing would npt be real..

Im also leaning towards the Smiths sighting beeing Gerry or someone else from the group..Who was sick and stayed at the room that evening? Matt?

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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 21.02.12 8:31

No, not Matt, Moa - he 'did a check' (or so he says) if you recall - remember the elaborate description of the twins cot sides and 'breathing' but he didn't see Madeleine?

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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by Guest on 21.02.12 9:31

@rainbow-fairy wrote:No, not Matt, Moa - he 'did a check' (or so he says) if you recall - remember the elaborate description of the twins cot sides and 'breathing' but he didn't see Madeleine?

That is correct..who was sick that evening ?

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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by tigger on 21.02.12 16:16

Moa wrote:
@rainbow-fairy wrote:No, not Matt, Moa - he 'did a check' (or so he says) if you recall - remember the elaborate description of the twins cot sides and 'breathing' but he didn't see Madeleine?

That is correct..who was sick that evening ?

ROB wasn't sick, but their daughter was that night. There's quite a bit about her having been sick and some sheets that needed washing. It's in the RI too.
ROB was annoyed at being interrogated about the laundry he allegedly did that night.

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voila

Post by russiandoll on 21.02.12 16:34



given the amount of stick that, that I’ve had with the Portuguese Press for not requesting any fresh sheets for Evie, erm, I think I’d actually like to point out that the, that this wasn’t some third world, erm, apartment and it did actually have a washing machine. And, erm, you know, we’ve been, you know, they don’t know where it’s come from, but, erm, I don’t know whether it is a question that the PJ have particularly done, but, you know, every time I translated to the PJ, erm, the Portuguese Press article, it says that we never requested any, erm, we never requested any further sheets and if they were sick all over them then how could this be true. But it’s quite sort of staggering that eight months later then the fact that there was a washing machine in the building isn’t in there, so I would be very keen for that to be put in please”.

did it have a tumble dryer also because how long would it take to dry and air a sheet for a bed making sure it was bone dry ?


‘Matt came into my apartment and asked if I needed any help, I said ‘No, go back and tell Jane that Evie was unwell’’ and then, because I don’t think that I would have had time then, it was then I started, ‘I got her out, I gave her a quick wash in the bath, changed her, got the sheet off the cot’, erm, and at least, whether I started the washing machine then, but at least ‘I put them in the washing machine and then sat down with Evie’. But I want it in there that there was a bloody washing machine in the apartment”.

yes yes we hear you loud and clear.... dont get in a tizz.
but what did your daughter then sleep on? a plastic mattress that would have made her sweaty and uncomfortable? so unreasonable of the press in Portugal to wonder why you did not do the logical thing, request clean sheets for your child whether you washed the soiled one yourself in the bloody washing machine.......or not.

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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by Ollie on 21.02.12 16:41

Maybe he pinched the sheets from the McCanns twins travel cots! I think it is strange that KM would have the twins sleeping in a travel cot without sheets, after all she was supposed to be houseproud, washing Madeleines pyjama top because of a stain, washing the curtains and cuddlecat. I know I would never have my baby niece sleep in her cot with no sheet.

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Re: Did Madeleine sleep in the bed they say she did?

Post by tigger on 21.02.12 20:34

@Ollie wrote:Maybe he pinched the sheets from the McCanns twins travel cots! I think it is strange that KM would have the twins sleeping in a travel cot without sheets, after all she was supposed to be houseproud, washing Madeleines pyjama top because of a stain, washing the curtains and cuddlecat. I know I would never have my baby niece sleep in her cot with no sheet.
'
It would be interesting to know whether the cots were moved to another apartment on the night of the 3rd. Because according to some witnesses, the twins were not in the room around 10.05 pm.
Gerry said when later the twins were in the room and in their cots, but without their sheets - he would take them back 'to their own apartment'.
Now, were there spare cots there? Or did they have to move the cots from 5a to the twins' 'own apartment'.

The sheets might then have been in those spare cots.

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