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Pat Brown - What about the Window

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 15:26

candyfloss wrote:
@wgbrother wrote:Whatever the reason the potential abductor might have had for opening the shutters, Pat Brown and Peter have put laid to one lie which has been doing the rounds for years. The fact is those shutters are clearly very easy to open from the outside. And if an abductor had decided to enter and leave by that route the fact that the shutters are so easy to open makes it more possible that it happened.

And I just wonder how the curtains went whoosh. Draughts don't come through closed windows do they? Did the abductor just push the window open then? Otherwise how did it happen?


Can I ask wgbrother how you know the name of the man is Peter?

Just an informed guess based on the initials being the same as Petermac a retired police officer who lives within stomping distance.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 15:31

@Nina wrote:
@T4two wrote:
@Genbug wrote:
@Nina wrote:I have shutters at every window small to large and every glass door in my house. I have tried alone, 5 feet 1 and 69 years old to raise them from the outside. Impossible. I have tried with hubby, 5 feet 9 and 79 years old, together and only possible one on each side and the need to prop with bricks. For every inch we raised them they groaned, as we did, and they needed props.

The man on the picture is younger and stronger. I cannot see a video, just the still of him holding the raised shutter. So may I ask, did he let go and it stay up, or, did he let go and it crash down?

These shutters are security shutters. My house insurance clearly states that if I have not got shutters then the premium is raised, that is because they prevent break ins. So in a built up area like PdL any attempt at break in imo would be noisy and in need of more than one person or something to prop the window up.

Nina. I agree with you 100%. I too live with exactly the same shutters. I have tried hard to lift them from the outside and couldn't manage more than half an inch (and I'm a fairly fit middle aged woman). They were also making an awful sound. Also like you, we have to make sure our shutters are in good working condition because of insurance. In my opinion, the shutters on that video are faulty or that man has super human strength!

I also agree 100%. The video is totally misleading. First the hullabaloo about the view without the trees and now this IMO completely unnecessary exercise. I'm sorry to say that the Pat Brown trip is not helping much at the moment.

Good morning Genbug and T4two. I cannot access videos so only see the still and of course no sound either, that is why I asked if they stayed up and was there any crashing down. Others who have shutters say they can raise them and gain access to their property without too much of a problem, I/we cannot I am pleased to say as I would be afraid to leave the house knowing that there were so many easy points of entry

Pat is showing that it is possible to raise a shutter in Portugal, not sure it is PdL so will not assume.

Your statement is illogical. You would be afraid to leave a house knowing there are so many easy points of entry. They are called windows. All houses have them. Do you have strong bars on your windows? Or do you have locking shutters. These shutters have no lock on them.

And trying to suggest Pat Brown was working on shutters somewhere other than PDL is like burying your head in the sand.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Guest on 19.02.12 15:32

@wgbrother wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
@wgbrother wrote:Whatever the reason the potential abductor might have had for opening the shutters, Pat Brown and Peter have put laid to one lie which has been doing the rounds for years. The fact is those shutters are clearly very easy to open from the outside. And if an abductor had decided to enter and leave by that route the fact that the shutters are so easy to open makes it more possible that it happened.

And I just wonder how the curtains went whoosh. Draughts don't come through closed windows do they? Did the abductor just push the window open then? Otherwise how did it happen?


Can I ask wgbrother how you know the name of the man is Peter?

Just an informed guess based on the initials being the same as Petermac a retired police officer who lives within stomping distance.

Hmmm.. well Pat hasn't said who this is, for all you know PM could stand for Policeman. Until we are told please do not speculate.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 15:35

@tigger wrote:
@C.Edwards wrote:By the way, I'm 99% certain that is actually 5a that "PM" is attacking the blind on. Just compare it with official photos and it all matches. It's not far enough down the path to be 5b.

I'm not sure how they (or even IF they) got permission to do this and, if not, should be treading a bit carefully. I doubt that Pat or PM would be daft enough to do something like that without some kind of permission.

The shutters and the window were thoroughly examined. That's why all the pink dust is on it - for fingerprints. The PJ found lichen on the shutters which was not disturbed and the window was cleaned the previous day by the cleaner. Only fingerprints from Kate were on the window which conformed to the opening of the window.
In the book the shutters are back in action, because it is the first thing Gerry does - check if they roll up. In the bewk they do, in other accounts they only managed to lift them a few inches before they got stuck.
So that's the shutters done and dusted.

Can you point to any reference in the files where it says the PJ found lichen on the sills or shutters?
If a person wore gloves would they leave fingerprints?

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 15:39

candyfloss wrote:
@wgbrother wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
@wgbrother wrote:Whatever the reason the potential abductor might have had for opening the shutters, Pat Brown and Peter have put laid to one lie which has been doing the rounds for years. The fact is those shutters are clearly very easy to open from the outside. And if an abductor had decided to enter and leave by that route the fact that the shutters are so easy to open makes it more possible that it happened.

And I just wonder how the curtains went whoosh. Draughts don't come through closed windows do they? Did the abductor just push the window open then? Otherwise how did it happen?


Can I ask wgbrother how you know the name of the man is Peter?

Just an informed guess based on the initials being the same as Petermac a retired police officer who lives within stomping distance.

Hmmm.. well Pat hasn't said who this is, for all you know PM could stand for Policeman. Until we are told please do not speculate.

The whole thread is about speculation not fact. So one more little speculation will hardly ruin it.

Speculation as to which apartment the shutters are, what type they are, whether they are in PDL, whether Pat Brown and PM got permission to fiddle with the shutters, whether there was lichen or not, whether the apartment was overlooked or not. I think its a perfectly reasonable bit of speculation to say that I think it might be PeterMac who was helping Pat Brown. After all he is friendly on here with TB who met up with her as well and lives withing stomping distance.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by aiyoyo on 19.02.12 15:40

@Nina wrote:
@T4two wrote:
@Genbug wrote:
@Nina wrote:I have shutters at every window small to large and every glass door in my house. I have tried alone, 5 feet 1 and 69 years old to raise them from the outside. Impossible. I have tried with hubby, 5 feet 9 and 79 years old, together and only possible one on each side and the need to prop with bricks. For every inch we raised them they groaned, as we did, and they needed props.

The man on the picture is younger and stronger. I cannot see a video, just the still of him holding the raised shutter. So may I ask, did he let go and it stay up, or, did he let go and it crash down?

These shutters are security shutters. My house insurance clearly states that if I have not got shutters then the premium is raised, that is because they prevent break ins. So in a built up area like PdL any attempt at break in imo would be noisy and in need of more than one person or something to prop the window up.

Nina. I agree with you 100%. I too live with exactly the same shutters. I have tried hard to lift them from the outside and couldn't manage more than half an inch (and I'm a fairly fit middle aged woman). They were also making an awful sound. Also like you, we have to make sure our shutters are in good working condition because of insurance. In my opinion, the shutters on that video are faulty or that man has super human strength!

I also agree 100%. The video is totally misleading. First the hullabaloo about the view without the trees and now this IMO completely unnecessary exercise. I'm sorry to say that the Pat Brown trip is not helping much at the moment.

Good morning Genbug and T4two. I cannot access videos so only see the still and of course no sound either, that is why I asked if they stayed up and was there any crashing down. Others who have shutters say they can raise them and gain access to their property without too much of a problem, I/we cannot I am pleased to say as I would be afraid to leave the house knowing that there were so many easy points of entry

Pat is showing that it is possible to raise a shutter in Portugal, not sure it is PdL so will not assume.
from the outside, otherwise they defeat the purpose.



Pat did tweet that she has fascination finds that will interest both sides, so maybe this is one story leaned more to the other side.

In one short trip PB learned so much and found so many interesting things to report on.
Yet the mccanns didnt bother to ask around or search in their half a dozen or so trips back to Portugal except to visit lawyers office, image consultants office, and church. And they wonder why people do not believe them.



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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 15:42

@Ribisl wrote:Some shutters have a built-in security mechanism so they can't be forced open more than an inch or two from the outside. In holiday apartments, especially in a serviced complex, it's likely that they wouldn't bother with this kind of extra. I am not quite sure however what exactly they are hoping to prove by forcing open the shutter this way, five years after the event.

Your use of the word force is interesting. There was no forcing from PM in that video. Just simple lifting.

As for what it proves. Well not a lot but it does suggest that all those claims that the shutters couldn't be lifted from the outside might actually be completely wrong. Its never a bad idea to dispel forum myths is it?

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 15:47

@aiyoyo wrote:
@Nina wrote:
@T4two wrote:
@Genbug wrote:
@Nina wrote:I have shutters at every window small to large and every glass door in my house. I have tried alone, 5 feet 1 and 69 years old to raise them from the outside. Impossible. I have tried with hubby, 5 feet 9 and 79 years old, together and only possible one on each side and the need to prop with bricks. For every inch we raised them they groaned, as we did, and they needed props.

The man on the picture is younger and stronger. I cannot see a video, just the still of him holding the raised shutter. So may I ask, did he let go and it stay up, or, did he let go and it crash down?

These shutters are security shutters. My house insurance clearly states that if I have not got shutters then the premium is raised, that is because they prevent break ins. So in a built up area like PdL any attempt at break in imo would be noisy and in need of more than one person or something to prop the window up.

Nina. I agree with you 100%. I too live with exactly the same shutters. I have tried hard to lift them from the outside and couldn't manage more than half an inch (and I'm a fairly fit middle aged woman). They were also making an awful sound. Also like you, we have to make sure our shutters are in good working condition because of insurance. In my opinion, the shutters on that video are faulty or that man has super human strength!

I also agree 100%. The video is totally misleading. First the hullabaloo about the view without the trees and now this IMO completely unnecessary exercise. I'm sorry to say that the Pat Brown trip is not helping much at the moment.

Good morning Genbug and T4two. I cannot access videos so only see the still and of course no sound either, that is why I asked if they stayed up and was there any crashing down. Others who have shutters say they can raise them and gain access to their property without too much of a problem, I/we cannot I am pleased to say as I would be afraid to leave the house knowing that there were so many easy points of entry

Pat is showing that it is possible to raise a shutter in Portugal, not sure it is PdL so will not assume.

If shutters are fitted to secure the property for insurance reason, then logically speaking one would have thought you shouldn't be able to open them from the outside, otherwise they defeat the purpose.

So far we heard contradictory accounts, whereby some said they open from outside albeit noisy, others said impossible to open from outside unless your are superman. This begs the question are shutters uniform in Spain, Portugal, and those European countries that have them, or do they come in various made and quality where one can select to fit different purposes, for example, as sunshade or as burglary proof (security reason). Or are there options in the installation methods to either secured it from the inside or not.
Or is it simply down to frequency of use, whereby the more you used it, the easier it becomes to slide them up and down.
Say for example you slide them up and down daily then the mechanism wears down and becomes loose due to wear and tear rendering opening easier from the outside - just wondering. Dont forget we are talking about same shutters 5-year down the line and must take into account the wear and tear condition.

Pat did tweet that she has fascination finds that will interest both sides, so maybe this is one story leaned more to the other side.

Again, the video demo shows the shutters wont open all the way and even then can't stay up, so window as access point by abductor is thrown out the window.


You start with an interesting "if". Perhaps they are fitted with shutters for insurance reasons. If so this kind is hopeless for the job. Just as likely though they are fitted as shades which help to cool the property in summer. Thats what a lot are used for.

I'm not sure the video does show that they won't stay up on their own. PM didn't try it did he in the video? Maybe tilting them as in one of the PJ photos would wedge them as it seems to have done for the PJ in their photo. It would be interesting to see that tried in a video as its just speculation that they wouldn't stay up unless somebody tries it.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Guest on 19.02.12 15:48

@wgbrother wrote:
@Ribisl wrote:Some shutters have a built-in security mechanism so they can't be forced open more than an inch or two from the outside. In holiday apartments, especially in a serviced complex, it's likely that they wouldn't bother with this kind of extra. I am not quite sure however what exactly they are hoping to prove by forcing open the shutter this way, five years after the event.

Your use of the word force is interesting. There was no forcing from PM in that video. Just simple lifting.

As for what it proves. Well not a lot but it does suggest that all those claims that the shutters couldn't be lifted from the outside might actually be completely wrong. Its never a bad idea to dispel forum myths is it?


But in that video the blinds are already up a couple of inches. He doesn't lift them from the very bottom, when they are tight on the windowsill. You would need something strong to lever them up to the couple of inches level, you couldn't just push them up as you couldn't get your fingers under. Using something to open them the first inch or two would surely leave a mark.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 15:50

@C.Edwards wrote:
candyfloss wrote:I don't remember seeing anything in the PJ files about the lichen, I think it comes for Prof. David Barclay one of Britains top forensic conslutants in Martin Brunt's The Mystery of Madeleine McCann............


Note: On Martin Brunt's documentary 'The Mystery of Madeleine McCann, aired on 24 December 2007, Prof David Barclay, one of Britain's top forensic consultants said: "I think it's impossible for somebody to get in and out, through that window without leaving a forensic trace. Apart from anything else, the window sills in that area are covered in green lichen. The minute you try and scrape over the window sills you would have left marks and we know that the scenes of crime lady, the next morning, was looking for exactly that."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

Are there any pics that show this? The one I found is distinctly lichen-free from what I can see:

Excellent find.
I have just said in another post it is good to dispel forum myths. Pat Brown has done that with the shutter myth by proving just how easy shutters can be opened from the outside.

That photo seems to me to dispel the myth that there was lichen on the window sill.

Where is there anything in the PJ files about lichen? Is there any reference to it there?

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 15:52

candyfloss wrote:
@wgbrother wrote:
@Ribisl wrote:Some shutters have a built-in security mechanism so they can't be forced open more than an inch or two from the outside. In holiday apartments, especially in a serviced complex, it's likely that they wouldn't bother with this kind of extra. I am not quite sure however what exactly they are hoping to prove by forcing open the shutter this way, five years after the event.

Your use of the word force is interesting. There was no forcing from PM in that video. Just simple lifting.

As for what it proves. Well not a lot but it does suggest that all those claims that the shutters couldn't be lifted from the outside might actually be completely wrong. Its never a bad idea to dispel forum myths is it?


But in that video the blinds are already up a couple of inches. He doesn't lift them from the very bottom, when they are tight on the windowsill. You would need something strong to lever them up to the couple of inches level, you couldn't just push them up as you couldn't get your fingers under. Using something to open them the first inch or two would surely leave a mark.

Perhaps your speculation that it would be difficult to lift them the first few inches is right. I have no idea.
I don't think any great force would be necessary. What would be holding them? They are not locked.
I think the first few inches would be just as easy as the rest of the lift. Tips of fingers would do it I suspect. And as there was clearly no lichen in the photo from back in 2007 then nothing to disturb.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 15:56

@Cristobell wrote:Any abductor would first and foremost check if the coast was clear. It wasn't, and the idea of lifting noisy shutters and peeping in is ridiculous, the father was standing outside of the apartment talking to Jez and Jane Tanner was walking towards the apartments.

How do you know that the shutters were lifted when they Jez and Gerry were outside? There is much speculation that it was earlier and the potential abductor was inside the building by then.

And what makes you think that the noise of shutters in action right around the other side of that large building would firstly be heard by someone and or secondly raise the remotest suspicion as it was such a normal noise on a building with shutters all over it?

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 15:59

candyfloss wrote:I don't remember seeing anything in the PJ files about the lichen, I think it comes for Prof. David Barclay one of Britains top forensic conslutants in Martin Brunt's The Mystery of Madeleine McCann............


Note: On Martin Brunt's documentary 'The Mystery of Madeleine McCann, aired on 24 December 2007, Prof David Barclay, one of Britain's top forensic consultants said: "I think it's impossible for somebody to get in and out, through that window without leaving a forensic trace. Apart from anything else, the window sills in that area are covered in green lichen. The minute you try and scrape over the window sills you would have left marks and we know that the scenes of crime lady, the next morning, was looking for exactly that."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

He may be an expert but was he in PDL? Did he examine that windowsill? His comment is just a generalism about windowsills in the area, not a specific report on 5A windowsill.

The photos of the actual windowsill at the time are very very clear. There wasn't any lichen at all, green, blue or sky blue pink.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Me on 19.02.12 16:00

@wgbrother wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:Any abductor would first and foremost check if the coast was clear. It wasn't, and the idea of lifting noisy shutters and peeping in is ridiculous, the father was standing outside of the apartment talking to Jez and Jane Tanner was walking towards the apartments.

How do you know that the shutters were lifted when they Jez and Gerry were outside? There is much speculation that it was earlier and the potential abductor was inside the building by then.

And what makes you think that the noise of shutters in action right around the other side of that large building would firstly be heard by someone and or secondly raise the remotest suspicion as it was such a normal noise on a building with shutters all over it?

So why didn't Jane Tanner and one of the Tapas guys notice the open shutter when they walked past?


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What is certain is that since the start of the investigation there were  incongruent and even contradictory situations concerning the witness statements; the telephone records of calls that were made and received on mobile phones that belonged to the couple and to the group of friends that were on holidays with them; the movements of people right after the disappearance of the little girl was noticed, concerning the state in which the bedroom from where the child disappeared from was found (closed window? open window? partially open window?) etc., and the mystery would only become even thicker due to the clues that were left by the already mentioned sniffer dogs. - The Words of a JUDGE in relation to the McCanns

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Guest on 19.02.12 16:04

@wgbrother wrote:
candyfloss wrote:I don't remember seeing anything in the PJ files about the lichen, I think it comes for Prof. David Barclay one of Britains top forensic conslutants in Martin Brunt's The Mystery of Madeleine McCann............


Note: On Martin Brunt's documentary 'The Mystery of Madeleine McCann, aired on 24 December 2007, Prof David Barclay, one of Britain's top forensic consultants said: "I think it's impossible for somebody to get in and out, through that window without leaving a forensic trace. Apart from anything else, the window sills in that area are covered in green lichen. The minute you try and scrape over the window sills you would have left marks and we know that the scenes of crime lady, the next morning, was looking for exactly that."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

He may be an expert but was he in PDL? Did he examine that windowsill? His comment is just a generalism about windowsills in the area, not a specific report on 5A windowsill.

The photos of the actual windowsill at the time are very very clear. There wasn't any lichen at all, green, blue or sky blue pink.


No, the bit in red is perfectly clear. He says the windowsills are not may be or could be but are. He is very specific, I presume he went out there for himself.



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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 16:05

@aiyoyo wrote:
@Nina wrote:
@T4two wrote:
@Genbug wrote:
@Nina wrote:I have shutters at every window small to large and every glass door in my house. I have tried alone, 5 feet 1 and 69 years old to raise them from the outside. Impossible. I have tried with hubby, 5 feet 9 and 79 years old, together and only possible one on each side and the need to prop with bricks. For every inch we raised them they groaned, as we did, and they needed props.

The man on the picture is younger and stronger. I cannot see a video, just the still of him holding the raised shutter. So may I ask, did he let go and it stay up, or, did he let go and it crash down?

These shutters are security shutters. My house insurance clearly states that if I have not got shutters then the premium is raised, that is because they prevent break ins. So in a built up area like PdL any attempt at break in imo would be noisy and in need of more than one person or something to prop the window up.

Nina. I agree with you 100%. I too live with exactly the same shutters. I have tried hard to lift them from the outside and couldn't manage more than half an inch (and I'm a fairly fit middle aged woman). They were also making an awful sound. Also like you, we have to make sure our shutters are in good working condition because of insurance. In my opinion, the shutters on that video are faulty or that man has super human strength!

I also agree 100%. The video is totally misleading. First the hullabaloo about the view without the trees and now this IMO completely unnecessary exercise. I'm sorry to say that the Pat Brown trip is not helping much at the moment.

Good morning Genbug and T4two. I cannot access videos so only see the still and of course no sound either, that is why I asked if they stayed up and was there any crashing down. Others who have shutters say they can raise them and gain access to their property without too much of a problem, I/we cannot I am pleased to say as I would be afraid to leave the house knowing that there were so many easy points of entry

Pat is showing that it is possible to raise a shutter in Portugal, not sure it is PdL so will not assume.
from the outside, otherwise they defeat the purpose.



Pat did tweet that she has fascination finds that will interest both sides, so maybe this is one story leaned more to the other side.

In one short trip PB learned so much and found so many interesting things to report on.
Yet the mccanns didnt bother to ask around or search in their half a dozen or so trips back to Portugal except to visit lawyers office, image consultants office, and church. And they wonder why people do not believe them.



Sorry what has Pat Brown actually found that the McCanns didn't know?

They knew the shutters could be opened from outside. They said that.

Having said the carpark was bright and easily overlooked she later realised that 2012 isn't 2007 and admitted that back in 2007 it had been a lot darker and less easily overlooked something everybody who had read the files including the McCanns had been saying for years.

So what is this new stuff that Pat Brown has found. I can't see one single thing. Please give us a clue what it might be.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Me on 19.02.12 16:08

@wgbrother wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
@Nina wrote:
@T4two wrote:
@Genbug wrote:
@Nina wrote:I have shutters at every window small to large and every glass door in my house. I have tried alone, 5 feet 1 and 69 years old to raise them from the outside. Impossible. I have tried with hubby, 5 feet 9 and 79 years old, together and only possible one on each side and the need to prop with bricks. For every inch we raised them they groaned, as we did, and they needed props.

The man on the picture is younger and stronger. I cannot see a video, just the still of him holding the raised shutter. So may I ask, did he let go and it stay up, or, did he let go and it crash down?

These shutters are security shutters. My house insurance clearly states that if I have not got shutters then the premium is raised, that is because they prevent break ins. So in a built up area like PdL any attempt at break in imo would be noisy and in need of more than one person or something to prop the window up.

Nina. I agree with you 100%. I too live with exactly the same shutters. I have tried hard to lift them from the outside and couldn't manage more than half an inch (and I'm a fairly fit middle aged woman). They were also making an awful sound. Also like you, we have to make sure our shutters are in good working condition because of insurance. In my opinion, the shutters on that video are faulty or that man has super human strength!

I also agree 100%. The video is totally misleading. First the hullabaloo about the view without the trees and now this IMO completely unnecessary exercise. I'm sorry to say that the Pat Brown trip is not helping much at the moment.

Good morning Genbug and T4two. I cannot access videos so only see the still and of course no sound either, that is why I asked if they stayed up and was there any crashing down. Others who have shutters say they can raise them and gain access to their property without too much of a problem, I/we cannot I am pleased to say as I would be afraid to leave the house knowing that there were so many easy points of entry

Pat is showing that it is possible to raise a shutter in Portugal, not sure it is PdL so will not assume.
from the outside, otherwise they defeat the purpose.



Pat did tweet that she has fascination finds that will interest both sides, so maybe this is one story leaned more to the other side.

In one short trip PB learned so much and found so many interesting things to report on.
Yet the mccanns didnt bother to ask around or search in their half a dozen or so trips back to Portugal except to visit lawyers office, image consultants office, and church. And they wonder why people do not believe them.



Sorry what has Pat Brown actually found that the McCanns didn't know?

They knew the shutters could be opened from outside. They said that.

Having said the carpark was bright and easily overlooked she later realised that 2012 isn't 2007 and admitted that back in 2007 it had been a lot darker and less easily overlooked something everybody who had read the files including the McCanns had been saying for years.

So what is this new stuff that Pat Brown has found. I can't see one single thing. Please give us a clue what it might be.

Well would it not be prudent to wait until she has completed her work, wait for her (no doubt) detailed analysis and then ask that question?

Anything else is pure hysteria or straw clutching.

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What is certain is that since the start of the investigation there were  incongruent and even contradictory situations concerning the witness statements; the telephone records of calls that were made and received on mobile phones that belonged to the couple and to the group of friends that were on holidays with them; the movements of people right after the disappearance of the little girl was noticed, concerning the state in which the bedroom from where the child disappeared from was found (closed window? open window? partially open window?) etc., and the mystery would only become even thicker due to the clues that were left by the already mentioned sniffer dogs. - The Words of a JUDGE in relation to the McCanns

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 16:10

candyfloss wrote:
@wgbrother wrote:
candyfloss wrote:I don't remember seeing anything in the PJ files about the lichen, I think it comes for Prof. David Barclay one of Britains top forensic conslutants in Martin Brunt's The Mystery of Madeleine McCann............


Note: On Martin Brunt's documentary 'The Mystery of Madeleine McCann, aired on 24 December 2007, Prof David Barclay, one of Britain's top forensic consultants said: "I think it's impossible for somebody to get in and out, through that window without leaving a forensic trace. Apart from anything else, the window sills in that area are covered in green lichen. The minute you try and scrape over the window sills you would have left marks and we know that the scenes of crime lady, the next morning, was looking for exactly that."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

He may be an expert but was he in PDL? Did he examine that windowsill? His comment is just a generalism about windowsills in the area, not a specific report on 5A windowsill.

The photos of the actual windowsill at the time are very very clear. There wasn't any lichen at all, green, blue or sky blue pink.


No, the bit in red is perfectly clear. He says the windowsills are not may be or could be but are. He is very specific, I presume he went out there for himself.



Yes IN THAT AREA they are. No mention at all of this specific window sill.
You do love to speculate (presume) don't you. Do you Know if he went there? Do you know if by mentioning all the windowsills in the area he is just generalising? Why did he not mention the one important windowsill instead of giving a generalisation about all the windowsills in the area.

Was he ever there or was he just going off reports about the area in general?

And its a bit cheeky that you got so upset when I made a brief speculation about Peter being PM but you constantly make these presumptions based on guesswork of your own.
Was he aware that people can clean their own windowsills because saying in general as he did that windowsills in the area ARE covered in green lichen seems to mean that he neglected that possibility.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 19.02.12 16:10

@wgbrother wrote:
candyfloss wrote:I don't remember seeing anything in the PJ files about the lichen, I think it comes for Prof. David Barclay one of Britains top forensic conslutants in Martin Brunt's The Mystery of Madeleine McCann............


Note: On Martin Brunt's documentary 'The Mystery of Madeleine McCann, aired on 24 December 2007, Prof David Barclay, one of Britain's top forensic consultants said: "I think it's impossible for somebody to get in and out, through that window without leaving a forensic trace. Apart from anything else, the window sills in that area are covered in green lichen. The minute you try and scrape over the window sills you would have left marks and we know that the scenes of crime lady, the next morning, was looking for exactly that."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

He may be an expert but was he in PDL? Did he examine that windowsill? His comment is just a generalism about windowsills in the area, not a specific report on 5A windowsill.

The photos of the actual windowsill at the time are very very clear. There wasn't any lichen at all, green, blue or sky blue pink.

The lichen referred to (references have already been posted so go back and look for yourself) IIRC isn't clumps of the stuff that you see growing on roofs and trees etc. It has been described as a powdery dusting. As it happens lichen is incredibly slowly growing organism and comes in a myriad of forms. Mccann PJ Files is a website you can google for yourself and in the forensic section for 4th May 2007 has all the info. There's no point keep saying you can't see it in a photo. You couldn't see the fingerprints unless they are covered in the Dragon blood powder, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. I think you are being a little obstructive here.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Gillyspot on 19.02.12 16:12

If Pat has shown nothing else she she has shown the complete pointlessness of the shutters as a point of entry. Which makes a mockery of Kate & Gerry's "team" saying they were "jemmied" "damaged" "broken" etc. - Open the shutters - the window isn't open by magic too.

So now we have to believe that the McCann couple left the childrens window open (not just unlocked - windows are not that easy to open even i unlocked as you well know) as well as the patio doors?

Please explain this if you can. No pieces of wood required this time though.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 16:13

@Me wrote:
@wgbrother wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
@Nina wrote:
@T4two wrote:
@Genbug wrote:
@Nina wrote:I have shutters at every window small to large and every glass door in my house. I have tried alone, 5 feet 1 and 69 years old to raise them from the outside. Impossible. I have tried with hubby, 5 feet 9 and 79 years old, together and only possible one on each side and the need to prop with bricks. For every inch we raised them they groaned, as we did, and they needed props.

The man on the picture is younger and stronger. I cannot see a video, just the still of him holding the raised shutter. So may I ask, did he let go and it stay up, or, did he let go and it crash down?

These shutters are security shutters. My house insurance clearly states that if I have not got shutters then the premium is raised, that is because they prevent break ins. So in a built up area like PdL any attempt at break in imo would be noisy and in need of more than one person or something to prop the window up.

Nina. I agree with you 100%. I too live with exactly the same shutters. I have tried hard to lift them from the outside and couldn't manage more than half an inch (and I'm a fairly fit middle aged woman). They were also making an awful sound. Also like you, we have to make sure our shutters are in good working condition because of insurance. In my opinion, the shutters on that video are faulty or that man has super human strength!

I also agree 100%. The video is totally misleading. First the hullabaloo about the view without the trees and now this IMO completely unnecessary exercise. I'm sorry to say that the Pat Brown trip is not helping much at the moment.

Good morning Genbug and T4two. I cannot access videos so only see the still and of course no sound either, that is why I asked if they stayed up and was there any crashing down. Others who have shutters say they can raise them and gain access to their property without too much of a problem, I/we cannot I am pleased to say as I would be afraid to leave the house knowing that there were so many easy points of entry

Pat is showing that it is possible to raise a shutter in Portugal, not sure it is PdL so will not assume.
from the outside, otherwise they defeat the purpose.



Pat did tweet that she has fascination finds that will interest both sides, so maybe this is one story leaned more to the other side.

In one short trip PB learned so much and found so many interesting things to report on.
Yet the mccanns didnt bother to ask around or search in their half a dozen or so trips back to Portugal except to visit lawyers office, image consultants office, and church. And they wonder why people do not believe them.



Sorry what has Pat Brown actually found that the McCanns didn't know?

They knew the shutters could be opened from outside. They said that.

Having said the carpark was bright and easily overlooked she later realised that 2012 isn't 2007 and admitted that back in 2007 it had been a lot darker and less easily overlooked something everybody who had read the files including the McCanns had been saying for years.

So what is this new stuff that Pat Brown has found. I can't see one single thing. Please give us a clue what it might be.

Well would it not be prudent to wait until she has completed her work, wait for her (no doubt) detailed analysis and then ask that question?

Anything else is pure hysteria or straw clutching.

No. I don't agree at all. Far better to raise the questions now while she is still in PDL then she has a chance to check for herself.

For example is there green lichen over all the windowsills in the area as that expert has claimed? Clearly there wasn't in 2007 on 5A windowsill so is it right in 2012 on any windowsill.

It was very valid for people to point out all the errors about the lighting in Pat Browns first blog from PDL. It gave her the chance to correct the blog while she still was in the area and could look for herself and ask the most relevant people.

I don't think thats hysteria or straw clutching at all. It seems to be the most professional way of working to me.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 16:16

@Me wrote:
@wgbrother wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:Any abductor would first and foremost check if the coast was clear. It wasn't, and the idea of lifting noisy shutters and peeping in is ridiculous, the father was standing outside of the apartment talking to Jez and Jane Tanner was walking towards the apartments.

How do you know that the shutters were lifted when they Jez and Gerry were outside? There is much speculation that it was earlier and the potential abductor was inside the building by then.

And what makes you think that the noise of shutters in action right around the other side of that large building would firstly be heard by someone and or secondly raise the remotest suspicion as it was such a normal noise on a building with shutters all over it?

So why didn't Jane Tanner and one of the Tapas guys notice the open shutter when they walked past?


Probably because it was very dark as even Pat Brown now recognises. And actually they didn't go past that window directly to get to their apartments. It is off to the side a little as they enter the carpark and walk in a straight line ahead to the doors of their apartments.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 16:19

@Gillyspot wrote:If Pat has shown nothing else she she has shown the complete pointlessness of the shutters as a point of entry. Which makes a mockery of Kate & Gerry's "team" saying they were "jemmied" "damaged" "broken" etc. - Open the shutters - the window isn't open by magic too.

So now we have to believe that the McCann couple left the childrens window open (not just unlocked - windows are not that easy to open even i unlocked as you well know) as well as the patio doors?

Please explain this if you can. No pieces of wood required this time though.

Did you not know that in the files Gerry is very clear that he didn't recall whether the window was open or not. I think people who are interested in the case should read the files very carefully and not rely on half truths and myths.

Gerry's statements are very near the beginning of the files. He mentions it twice if I remember correctly.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Guest on 19.02.12 16:23

Me speculate wgbrother, you are the one speculating about the pieces of wood, the looking in through a window, that you couldn't see through cos the curtains were closed laughat Prof. David Barclay was clear, he said ARE not could be or might be and that was what the forensics lady was looking for. How would he know she was looking for this specifically?

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Me on 19.02.12 16:25

@wgbrother wrote:
@Me wrote:
@wgbrother wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
@Nina wrote:
@T4two wrote:
@Genbug wrote:
@Nina wrote:I have shutters at every window small to large and every glass door in my house. I have tried alone, 5 feet 1 and 69 years old to raise them from the outside. Impossible. I have tried with hubby, 5 feet 9 and 79 years old, together and only possible one on each side and the need to prop with bricks. For every inch we raised them they groaned, as we did, and they needed props.

The man on the picture is younger and stronger. I cannot see a video, just the still of him holding the raised shutter. So may I ask, did he let go and it stay up, or, did he let go and it crash down?

These shutters are security shutters. My house insurance clearly states that if I have not got shutters then the premium is raised, that is because they prevent break ins. So in a built up area like PdL any attempt at break in imo would be noisy and in need of more than one person or something to prop the window up.

Nina. I agree with you 100%. I too live with exactly the same shutters. I have tried hard to lift them from the outside and couldn't manage more than half an inch (and I'm a fairly fit middle aged woman). They were also making an awful sound. Also like you, we have to make sure our shutters are in good working condition because of insurance. In my opinion, the shutters on that video are faulty or that man has super human strength!

I also agree 100%. The video is totally misleading. First the hullabaloo about the view without the trees and now this IMO completely unnecessary exercise. I'm sorry to say that the Pat Brown trip is not helping much at the moment.

Good morning Genbug and T4two. I cannot access videos so only see the still and of course no sound either, that is why I asked if they stayed up and was there any crashing down. Others who have shutters say they can raise them and gain access to their property without too much of a problem, I/we cannot I am pleased to say as I would be afraid to leave the house knowing that there were so many easy points of entry

Pat is showing that it is possible to raise a shutter in Portugal, not sure it is PdL so will not assume.
from the outside, otherwise they defeat the purpose.



Pat did tweet that she has fascination finds that will interest both sides, so maybe this is one story leaned more to the other side.

In one short trip PB learned so much and found so many interesting things to report on.
Yet the mccanns didnt bother to ask around or search in their half a dozen or so trips back to Portugal except to visit lawyers office, image consultants office, and church. And they wonder why people do not believe them.



Sorry what has Pat Brown actually found that the McCanns didn't know?

They knew the shutters could be opened from outside. They said that.

Having said the carpark was bright and easily overlooked she later realised that 2012 isn't 2007 and admitted that back in 2007 it had been a lot darker and less easily overlooked something everybody who had read the files including the McCanns had been saying for years.

So what is this new stuff that Pat Brown has found. I can't see one single thing. Please give us a clue what it might be.

Well would it not be prudent to wait until she has completed her work, wait for her (no doubt) detailed analysis and then ask that question?

Anything else is pure hysteria or straw clutching.

No. I don't agree at all. Far better to raise the questions now while she is still in PDL then she has a chance to check for herself.

For example is there green lichen over all the windowsills in the area as that expert has claimed? Clearly there wasn't in 2007 on 5A windowsill so is it right in 2012 on any windowsill.

It was very valid for people to point out all the errors about the lighting in Pat Browns first blog from PDL. It gave her the chance to correct the blog while she still was in the area and could look for herself and ask the most relevant people.

I don't think thats hysteria or straw clutching at all. It seems to be the most professional way of working to me.

Really? What taking a 15 second video of shutters opening is the most professional way to determine the overall merits of an abduction scenario?? Since when has that scenriop relied solely on the ability to open shutters from the outside.

Not sure what profession you are in but i would not agree that that is the professional way to form an overall hypothesis. Once we have more information regarding Jane Tanner's testimony, the lighting issue, the inability to see open shutters when walking past the car park entrance then and only then can we detemrine a professional conclusion on the abduction sceanrio.

You need to see the issue of shutters opening from the outside against all other evidence and then ask your questions.

As i said anything else is straw clutching or hysteria at this time.

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What is certain is that since the start of the investigation there were  incongruent and even contradictory situations concerning the witness statements; the telephone records of calls that were made and received on mobile phones that belonged to the couple and to the group of friends that were on holidays with them; the movements of people right after the disappearance of the little girl was noticed, concerning the state in which the bedroom from where the child disappeared from was found (closed window? open window? partially open window?) etc., and the mystery would only become even thicker due to the clues that were left by the already mentioned sniffer dogs. - The Words of a JUDGE in relation to the McCanns

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