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Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by Cheshire Cat on 14.02.12 20:32

@Nina wrote:
@Daisy wrote:
@Nina wrote:
Stella wrote:
candyfloss wrote:


Stella, the top photo you posted has only one old tree, the second is different, are they same place?

Yep, same place all around May 2007 and on Pamalam's site. Taken from things at that time.

The top two pictures show the wall as it opens for access slopes up slightly then flat. The third picture is just flat right to the opening.

I see what you mean. Also, in the first two photos the wall has the 'private parking' sign & a no 5 plaque.

Doesn't appear all 3 pics are of the same location. Looking at them more closely, the trees are different species altogether in the 3rd photo.

Hmmmm, the plants are different too in the narrow border just over the wall by the front doors. Yet the building looks exactly the same by comparison.

I agree. The photograph with the single tree is 5a; the photograph with several thick trees is not 5a. The photograph with the single tree would allow a clear view of the window as Pat Brown has shown in her photograph. Certainly seems if some people want to undermine Pat Brown and discredit her work! Hmmmmmmmmmmm

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by Juulcy on 14.02.12 20:53

I agree, pictures not of the same exact place. Shape of wall is also different, anf one has a white traffic stripe on the ground near the wall, the other hasn't.

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http://illiweb.com/fa/empty.gifRe: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by bobbin on 14.02.12 21:06

I've only picked up Portuguese from following this case since inception, so forgive my ?translation?
? front of the block of apartments of Ocean Club
1. Window of Maddie’s bedroom as if it had been opened
2. Route taken by Jane Tanner, Matthew Oldfield and Russel O’brien who would not have been able to avoid seeing the window open. ?
The photographer has moved a bit across the car park, for the night-time photo with the white strip showing the Tapas route taken past the flat.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by Daisy on 14.02.12 21:10

@Nina wrote:
Hmmmm, the plants are different too in the narrow
border just over the wall by the front doors. Yet the building looks
exactly the same by comparison.

Is the apt block directly to the side of block 5 exactly the same? If so perhaps the (3rd) photo is the front of that block?

Here: http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/bm/28.jpg

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by Guest on 14.02.12 21:20

I've just had a look at this site below. If you put in Portugal then keep zooming in you eventually come to Luz, keeping zooming and it brings up good picture of apartments. The third photo that has been posted on here looks like it is the other end of the block, with the white zebra crossing and not apartment 5a. The road you are looking for on zoomed map is Rua Dr. Agostinho da Silva which is the road the front of the apartments are on..............

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/map/google_map_portugal.htm


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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by Guest on 14.02.12 21:25

The photos do show two different entrances. There are the two blocks - block 5 and 4 which are fairly identical. on this picture in the link below, it shows the two blocks from the front and the two entrances. - block 5 is on the left, block 4 on the right. There are two entrances - the entrance in the top 2 photos above with the curved wall is the entrance to block 5 and shows the windows for 5a.... the entrance to block 4 is the 3rd photo above - this one has a straight wall and zebra crossing just to the right of the entrance...

http://www.mccannfiles.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/aerialphotod.gif&target=tlx_piccwty

Hard to tell how high the apartments opposite are and therefore what kind of view they would have had over the trees at the time so reserve judgement on that one..

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by Guest on 14.02.12 21:35

Stewie wrote:The photos do show two different entrances. There are the two blocks - block 5 and 4 which are fairly identical. on this picture in the link below, it shows the two blocks from the front and the two entrances. - block 5 is on the left, block 4 on the right. There are two entrances - the entrance in the top 2 photos above with the curved wall is the entrance to block 5 and shows the windows for 5a.... the entrance to block 4 is the 3rd photo above - this one has a straight wall and zebra crossing just to the right of the entrance...

http://www.mccannfiles.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/aerialphotod.gif&target=tlx_piccwty

Hard to tell how high the apartments opposite are and therefore what kind of view they would have had over the trees at the time so reserve judgement on that one..

Yes, thanks Stewie, that is what I saw on that link I put up. Two buildings, the photos posted here earlier where of each end of that double block.

ETA There is a little narrow walkway between the two buildings.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by Cheshire Cat on 14.02.12 22:27

candyfloss wrote:I've just had a look at this site below. If you put in Portugal then keep zooming in you eventually come to Luz, keeping zooming and it brings up good picture of apartments. The third photo that has been posted on here looks like it is the other end of the block, with the white zebra crossing and not apartment 5a. The road you are looking for on zoomed map is Rua Dr. Agostinho da Silva which is the road the front of the apartments are on..............

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/map/google_map_portugal.htm


Pat Brown has the advantage of being in Praia Da Luz. She is able to see how things are now and also ask people how things were in 2007. She is meticulous in her work and in her reporting.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by aiyoyo on 14.02.12 22:32

@maebee wrote:
Gerry - when reporting the abduction to the family had found time to check - no valuables were taken.

Says a lot about what he thought about his first-born. Sad

Who would think of checking valuables when they have one child missing? That would be last on their mind.
A burglar never take a child and an abductor never take valuables.
This is another forensics linguistics moment. They knew exactly what happened to her - that no one took her, but they made a point to check valuables (or to say that they'd done so) to fit in' their stranger had been in the place story'..

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by aiyoyo on 15.02.12 6:11

@tigger wrote:If I were an abductor and had been stalking the McCanns, 'cased' 5a for entry and exits, the only real advantage the apartment had was that it was next to the car park?

But no car was used, according to the evidence, unless it was parked at the other end of PdL and a brisk walk with a heavy load - hoping not to be seen - was the method used. So up to the actual abduction, the abductors functioned quite rationally - planning and observing - after that, brain meltdown.
Psychologically and realistically, it simply won't work.

If the abductor was stalking the mccanns and had a key, surely there are better days to do the deed than May3rd when frequent rota checking were going on!

What about the night the children were allegedly left alone, where one of them was reported crying for hours, as the adults had gone allegedly from Tapas Restaurant to another drinking hole 10 mins away - Tuesday it must be when Bingo was on. Why didn't the abductor enter then? If he was stalking them surely he must know they were gone far enough away.

This "abductor" tale is a whole shitload of bull - why do a dry run, why when he has a key wait until may 3rd where human traffic from the group is fluid.

Don't forget, having multiple entrance and exit points must be useful for the mccanns as well, especially if they'd observed they are wide-opened to observations from one side.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by aiyoyo on 15.02.12 6:44

@C.Edwards wrote:I agree with Stella on this - those trees would have easily been in the way of the windows from the apartment opposite, you can see from their height you'd need to be dozens more stories up to get the angle required to see over the top of those trees.

Well, in that case you may have proven Pat's point. All depends of course.
That Apt Blk opposite seems a lot taller, so people's view from the higher level wouldn't be obstructed.
Depending on distance of the two buildings, if far enough, then yes given enough angle people from a higher storey in the opp block could have an unobstructed view into Apt 5A.

All depends where Pat took the pics from. Was she in the opp. block or another adjacent block on the side that looks right in the alley outside Apt 5A?


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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by aiyoyo on 15.02.12 6:51

@Cheshire Cat wrote:
@Nina wrote:
@Daisy wrote:
@Nina wrote:
Stella wrote:
candyfloss wrote:


Stella, the top photo you posted has only one old tree, the second is different, are they same place?

Yep, same place all around May 2007 and on Pamalam's site. Taken from things at that time.

The top two pictures show the wall as it opens for access slopes up slightly then flat. The third picture is just flat right to the opening.

I see what you mean. Also, in the first two photos the wall has the 'private parking' sign & a no 5 plaque.

Doesn't appear all 3 pics are of the same location. Looking at them more closely, the trees are different species altogether in the 3rd photo.

Hmmmm, the plants are different too in the narrow border just over the wall by the front doors. Yet the building looks exactly the same by comparison.

I agree. The photograph with the single tree is 5a; the photograph with several thick trees is not 5a. The photograph with the single tree would allow a clear view of the window as Pat Brown has shown in her photograph. Certainly seems if some people want to undermine Pat Brown and discredit her work! Hmmmmmmmmmmm

In the first two photos, windows are clearly visible between tree trunks, and the leafy branches are much higher up. So people from the same level opp should be able to view the windows as seen in photos.

All depends which level one is on in the opposite block, certainly those apts opp not caught by the leafy tree branches level, can have unobstructed view of either the whole of Apt 5A from higher than tree leaves level, or of its window from same level or one level up at an angle.


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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by Gillyspot on 15.02.12 6:52

Stella wrote:With all due respect Cheshire Cat. If you look at the photographs that Pat has taken and compare these with the ones available in 2007, the trees are no longer there and the light bulbs have been all been changed.

There is no need to be quite so rude and we all do real research here, well most of us anyway.


Sorry to disagree with you but the trees are clearly still there in Pat's night time photo. You can see them through the balcony railings. As regards the lighting I can't comment on that.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by Cheshire Cat on 15.02.12 7:03

@Gillyspot wrote:
Stella wrote:With all due respect Cheshire Cat. If you look at the photographs that Pat has taken and compare these with the ones available in 2007, the trees are no longer there and the light bulbs have been all been changed.

There is no need to be quite so rude and we all do real research here, well most of us anyway.


Sorry to disagree with you but the trees are clearly still there in Pat's night time photo. You can see them through the balcony railings. As regards the lighting I can't comment on that.

There are tall in trees in Pats night time photograph: the photograph with the thick trees inside the carpark is not 5a anyway. I'm not impressed with Stella's research here as she is using a photograph of a different view to rubbish Pat. Why?

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by Guest on 15.02.12 7:23

In her post,Pat does say there was some shrubbery that has now been removed but it wouldn't have obscured the view so she seems to have taken into account that there is less foliage now.

She took the photos from the block opposite block 5 and says she was on the third floor. You can tell which apartment from the last daytime shot she posted which shows she was in the block opposite which has the small pool out front. Looking at various shots of this block on pamalam's site it does seem to be higher than block 5

This shows the view up the road with block 5 on the left at top of the road and you can see pat's apartment block at the top of the road.


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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by littlepixie on 15.02.12 7:59

Does anyone know where the footage is of Gerry McCann and Jon Corner filming 5A from the balcony of an opposite apartment? Gerry was making the point that someone had been "watching them" and there was a clear view of 5A from this balcony. Could it be the same block Pat is in?

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by Cheshire Cat on 15.02.12 8:07

Stewie wrote:In her post,Pat does say there was some shrubbery that has now been removed but it wouldn't have obscured the view so she seems to have taken into account that there is less foliage now.

She took the photos from the block opposite block 5 and says she was on the third floor. You can tell which apartment from the last daytime shot she posted which shows she was in the block opposite which has the small pool out front. Looking at various shots of this block on pamalam's site it does seem to be higher than block 5

This shows the view up the road with block 5 on the left at top of the road and you can see pat's apartment block at the top of the road.


I believe Stella is here to disrupt the forum by undermining the theories of Pat and Goncalo whilst leading people up the garden path with her own theories.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by Me on 15.02.12 8:50

Irrespective of trees or no trees at opposite apartment level, the pertinent issue is how, given she'd just seen an "abductor" walking across the road did Jane Tanner (and others in the group after her) walk round by the car park and not notice the shutter up in that gap between the trees?

I would suggest given the nature of the ligthing it would be impossible not to be drawn to look at an open shutter against a backdrop of closed shutters.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by Guest on 15.02.12 9:00



The people in green I believe were the GNR dog handlers, the rest are journalists all huddled around block 5 carpark. Why would they be hanging around another blocks car park?

Daisy, the night shot you refer to with a tree in, the base of the tree is sitting in the carpark Opposite.

Cheshire Cat. Your remarks have gone way past the point of being constructive or polite. You may have the title of being linked to the Madeleine Foundation, but you are still bound by the rules of this forum. If this has now become personal, you will have to continue your quest by PM I'm afraid, as any more posts on here of that nature will be deleted. Why are you unable to discuss anything on a sensible level now? If you or anyone else can supply a picture of block 5's carpark along with the link to where it came from, as seen in 2007 without these trees, then please do so. This is not an attack on Pat Brown, it is an observation and one up for discussion as adults. But your unfounded accusations of me attacking Pat Brown and Goncalo Amaral, suggests to me that you are trying to stir things up. If I can debate as an adult without attacking anyone, then so can you.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by Guest on 15.02.12 9:27

@aiyoyo wrote:
@C.Edwards wrote:I agree with Stella on this - those trees would have easily been in the way of the windows from the apartment opposite, you can see from their height you'd need to be dozens more stories up to get the angle required to see over the top of those trees.

Well, in that case you may have proven Pat's point. All depends of course.
That Apt Blk opposite seems a lot taller,

It is, but you would need a mathamatician to work out the height of those trees, the angle of view you are left with compared to how much of block 5 you could still see at that time. Something very hard to do unless the trees were still there in the first place.

so people's view from the higher level wouldn't be obstructed. That depends on which floor you are on.

Depending on distance of the two buildings, if far enough, then yes given enough angle people from a higher storey in the opp block could have an unobstructed view into Apt 5A.

But would they have built apartment blocks on let's say 6 or 7 floors to be able to do this? Maybe they did to give some residents an elevated sea view, most builders are only ever interested in higher sale prices.

All depends where Pat took the pics from. Was she in the opp. block or another adjacent block on the side that looks right in the alley outside Apt 5A?

I think she must have been in the block 2 apartments directly opposite. If you look on the OC map in the library, there is a block with the number 2 on it. I can only think it must be all residential, or they are numbered up differently. I've looked on all the block information I have and cannot see a G2, so they could be all private. There is of course the gap where cars enter the carpark that would allow block 5 to be seen. But looking at the angle of Pat's photo and considering how wide those trees looked, I'm still not sure you could see 5a front door and bedroom window. 5b and 5c, most definitely, I would think.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by david_uk on 15.02.12 9:29

Blimey! I thought this forum was all for Freedom of Speech!

It is, but there are rules to abide by and insulting anyone else is not acceptable.

Calm down people!. maintain some peace!.

Precisely. We are here to discuss everything rationally, unlike other forums. We cover everything, which is why we are the best forum there is out there and we all have a duty to behave like adults.

If anyone cannot move on from this and debate sensibly, then please PM me. It is time to move on folks.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by Guest on 15.02.12 9:35

@Me wrote:Irrespective of trees or no trees at opposite apartment level, the pertinent issue is how, given she'd just seen an "abductor" walking across the road did Jane Tanner (and others in the group after her) walk round by the car park and not notice the shutter up in that gap between the trees?

I would suggest given the nature of the ligthing it would be impossible not to be drawn to look at an open shutter against a backdrop of closed shutters.

I'm trying to find a picture of how those bushes looked that used to run up that side wall, but I cannot access Pamalam's site at the moment. All of the T9 complained how dark and creepy they thought that route was and it's a very sad day when beautiful trees are cut down to satisfy those beliefs. They could have just thinned them out and kept the beauty of the greenery.

As with the last photo I posted up, you can see people above the wall and below the trees, so certainly a gap big enough to see open shutters from I would have thought. But there was still a heavy shrub of some kind to elevate the wall that runs up to the top of that road, that's the pictures I'm trying to find. The question is where did that shrub end and was it continuous or had gaps in it?

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by tigger on 15.02.12 9:39

Perhaps we should wait until Pat writes her report with whatever photographs - which can then be analysed?

I know little about the lay out there apart from some photographs, maps and Google satellite maps. There is nothing like being on the ground and following the movements of those involved as set down in their official statements.

part comment deleted as completely off topic

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by Guest on 15.02.12 9:55

I think we need to wait and see if we get any better photographs in daylight. Anyone on twitter could ask Pat to do this.

Tigger, it is not helpful to regurgitate old arguments, can we please stick to the topic of the thread.

@ david_uk any personal issues should be taken to pm.

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Re: Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: A Picture Worth a Thousand Words

Post by Guest on 15.02.12 10:08

This is on McCannfiles and the sixth picture down is an aerial view that one of the newspapers must have had taken at that time.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id94.html

But let's wait to see what Pat's full report has to say about then and now.

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