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What should have happened?

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by T4two on 03.02.12 0:13

@Ollie wrote:The PJ only followed the abduction line of enquiry. The millions would of still of rolled into the fund, the media would of only printed stories of an abduction. The McCanns would still of had the support of media controllers etc. GM would of become ambassador of children's charities and other organisations, travelling the world, holding audiences.



KM would of quietly stayed in the background continuing the 'search' for Madeleine, from Portugal. Writing her book, which no one would of questioned as they were never made suspects. No newspapers would of paid out huge sums of money, people would not be dragged through the courts for libel, books etc.



How different it could of been for the McCanns if the PJ had only followed the abduction claim.


Nail on the head! Isn't that exactly what the PJ were supposed to do, in fact what should have happened? Didn't the British Ambassador tell them so? The British Ambassador wasn't working on his own though, but was under instructions from the Foreign Office and ultimately the then Prime Minister Blair. It's highly likely that Blair's successor Gordon Brown subsequently took that line too together with his Home Secretary Jacqui whatshername and one can safely assume that the then Chief Constable of Leicestershire, who had his eye on promotion to the NI job at the time (as had the then head of CEOP) was pushing it as well.

How do I know you might ask? I don't, but I've always been aware of an obvious conflict of interest between the people on the ground, such as Prior and Amaral and their respective superiors during the active investigation in Portugal from May to September 2007.

It seems to me that it wasn't left to Dr. Amaral and his colleagues to go against that 'official line' on their own, but that by bringing in expert opinion and based on the expert's recommendations, subsequently bringing in Mr. Grimes and his dogs, Leicestershire Constabulary detectives on the ground blatantly disregarded it themselves and actively encouraged the PJ to do so. But their efforts were constantly being undermined by the refusal of their home base to cooperate in providing the kind of background information concerning credit cards, financial status, medical records and telephone records, which is essential and should be a given, for any investigation of this kind.

I do believe that Prior had let his basic instincts as a detective takeover in Portugal, probably calculating that if they could crack the case and the PJ could charge the parents, he would then be safe from possible retribution for not adhering to the 'official line' as laid down by his Chief Constable. No wonder he threw a wobbly when the initial DNA results were demolished by the second FSS report and hightailed it back to Blighty, when the last-ditch attempt to nail the suspects went pear shaped and they had to be allowed to leave Portugal with VIP status. After his return to the UK, Prior seems to have turned 180° with his notorious "Call me Stu" emails, actively discouraging the T9 from participating in the reconstruction, which was the only possible alternative left for the PJ to make any progress with the investigation. IMO he must have been put under pressure to do so.

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by tigger on 03.02.12 8:54

@aquila wrote:
@Ross wrote:
@aquila wrote:
If that chat actually happened did the so-called senior figure in Leicester Social Services endorse that remark? and who precisely is that senior figure?

No, no-one was ever named and let's face it they wouldn't want to be named if they had made such an irresponsible comment. For all we know it was just a line dreamed up by Clarence to justify the lack of action by the UK authorities in a case of clear parental neglect.

so are we saying GM said this or CM dreamt it up? Which is it to be?

Ross posted the statement to show what should have happened.
Thanks to the posts here I'm already getting new insights on the extend of the involvement of the ambassador, presumably the man was in Lisbon, allegedly they phoned him during the night ( not really easy to get the duty officer to wake up the chief - highly unlikely - so for me he was already under orders).
I've had a theory that the initial fake abduction was to have been the 2nd and something went wrong, possibly explains the circus of the 3rd.

I think if you look at the PACT topic, you'll find that these tame lawyers, who'd only just set up this PACT and FLA (family law association) about six weeks before 3/5/07, were according to Gerry the source of this statement.
What is most curious is how TM knew about PACT and FLA so soon in the proceedings. After six weeks a new firm is hardly well-known.

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 03.02.12 10:13

@aquila wrote:
@Ross wrote:
@Lady-Heather wrote:Is this true? Is there any way this can be confirmed?

No, I'm afraid as Jean has pointed out this is what should have happened. I did phrase it slightly satirically because you may recall McCann saying that he had had a chat with senior figure in Leicester social services who had informed him that their actions were 'well within the bounds of parental responsibility'.

I have wondered aloud here before if someone in court on charges of child neglect one day will attempt the 'McCann Defence'. 'Well your honour, We were only out drinking in the pub down the road, rather like dining with friends in a tapas bar...'

If that chat actually happened did the so-called senior figure in Leicester Social Services endorse that remark? and who precisely is that senior figure?
I would be amazed if ANY senior figure said anything of the sort. Allow me, if you will, to tell you a true story about what happens to 'ordinary folk' in a not-even comparable situation.
A friend of mine is a single dad. At the time our story begins his son was two years old, safe in bed. Daddy downstairs. Daddy has friend visit to watch a DVD. The DVD was a bit boring and my friend fell asleep. His friend, mildly piqued, decided to go home. He didn't wake my friend on leaving, nor did he shut the front door properly Sad
Now, whether the door shutting awoke the child we don't know, but something did. He went straight out the front door into the street! Now, it is likely it was the sudden draught from the front door woke my friend, who was confronted with an open house and no friend or son! Frantic, he flew out into the street calling his name (by now it was past midnight). He got into his car and drove round the estate, having rung his friend and realising what had happened. No child to be seen. So, he headed back home to call the police. In this meantime a neighbour had found the boy wandering in nappy and t-shirt and called police, who were there waiting when friend arrived back. Even though it was clear what had happened, and friend had been hunting for child, the upshot was he got an 18 month suspended jail sentence for child cruelty and neglect, child put on 'at risk' register.
I don't know about anyone else, but this is hardly comparable with the McCanns making a concious decision to leave their children alone, EVEN AFTER the eldest asked where they were when she cried! Then LOSE one of said children and get off scot-free... (That's if you believe the 'children left alone' assertion - I don't)
It goes to show though, if you're a chavvy middle class doctor with muck on someone high up, you can get away with just about anything!
Its vile and our whole system is rotten to the core.

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by aquila on 03.02.12 10:26

@rainbow-fairy wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@Ross wrote:
@Lady-Heather wrote:Is this true? Is there any way this can be confirmed?

No, I'm afraid as Jean has pointed out this is what should have happened. I did phrase it slightly satirically because you may recall McCann saying that he had had a chat with senior figure in Leicester social services who had informed him that their actions were 'well within the bounds of parental responsibility'.

I have wondered aloud here before if someone in court on charges of child neglect one day will attempt the 'McCann Defence'. 'Well your honour, We were only out drinking in the pub down the road, rather like dining with friends in a tapas bar...'

If that chat actually happened did the so-called senior figure in Leicester Social Services endorse that remark? and who precisely is that senior figure?
I would be amazed if ANY senior figure said anything of the sort. Allow me, if you will, to tell you a true story about what happens to 'ordinary folk' in a not-even comparable situation.
A friend of mine is a single dad. At the time our story begins his son was two years old, safe in bed. Daddy downstairs. Daddy has friend visit to watch a DVD. The DVD was a bit boring and my friend fell asleep. His friend, mildly piqued, decided to go home. He didn't wake my friend on leaving, nor did he shut the front door properly Sad
Now, whether the door shutting awoke the child we don't know, but something did. He went straight out the front door into the street! Now, it is likely it was the sudden draught from the front door woke my friend, who was confronted with an open house and no friend or son! Frantic, he flew out into the street calling his name (by now it was past midnight). He got into his car and drove round the estate, having rung his friend and realising what had happened. No child to be seen. So, he headed back home to call the police. In this meantime a neighbour had found the boy wandering in nappy and t-shirt and called police, who were there waiting when friend arrived back. Even though it was clear what had happened, and friend had been hunting for child, the upshot was he got an 18 month suspended jail sentence for child cruelty and neglect, child put on 'at risk' register.
I don't know about anyone else, but this is hardly comparable with the McCanns making a concious decision to leave their children alone, EVEN AFTER the eldest asked where they were when she cried! Then LOSE one of said children and get off scot-free... (That's if you believe the 'children left alone' assertion - I don't)
It goes to show though, if you're a chavvy middle class doctor with muck on someone high up, you can get away with just about anything!
Its vile and our whole system is rotten to the core.

perhaps your friend ought to have said 'it was like dining in the garden'

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by kikoraton on 03.02.12 13:35

Quote: I've had a theory that the initial fake abduction was to have been the 2nd and something went wrong, possibly explains the circus of the 3rd.


It's quite possible that as a result of the flurry of voicemail messages (mainly involving Gerry) on 2 May, they had to accept that some important element of the scam was not yet in place. Gerry's accessing of his voicemail was to all intents and purposes over by 1549, but the last message was repeated again - or listened to again - at 1749 and 1949. Then at 2014, Gerry indicated to his Vodafone service centre that he had finished with his voicemail, and switched on his mobile only once more in the 27 hours that remained before A (for "Abduction") - hour.
Interestingly, Kate took a long text message at 2008 on 2 May.
Quite feasible, then, that insufficient time remained on 2 May to get the scam under way.
As it happens, I'm not one of those who believes that the "Abduction" was a shambles, and this indicates that it was a spontaneous event, totally unprepared. We may have holed it, but it's still unfortunately holding water today, nearly 5 years later.

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by kikoraton on 03.02.12 13:47

Quote "muck on someone high up"
This theory appears to be gaining ground at the expense of the "Gerry was politically well-connected" theory.
I suppose a load of people have muck on GB, if that is what is meant. I don't expect it's confined to Edinburgh or any one place. People travel and speak freely, don't they?
Oh no they don't, regrettably! As American author Paul Auster has just said in a different context, "the opportunity to express oneself freely, without threat of imprisonment, is a sacred right." Tell that to Adam Tudor of Carter Ruck. He's made a more-than-comfortable living out of preventing it. But Tony Bennett might take some consolation from it.

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by tigger on 03.02.12 14:15

@kikoraton wrote:Quote: I've had a theory that the initial fake abduction was to have been the 2nd and something went wrong, possibly explains the circus of the 3rd.


It's quite possible that as a result of the flurry of voicemail messages (mainly involving Gerry) on 2 May, they had to accept that some important element of the scam was not yet in place. Gerry's accessing of his voicemail was to all intents and purposes over by 1549, but the last message was repeated again - or listened to again - at 1749 and 1949. Then at 2014, Gerry indicated to his Vodafone service centre that he had finished with his voicemail, and switched on his mobile only once more in the 27 hours that remained before A (for "Abduction") - hour.
Interestingly, Kate took a long text message at 2008 on 2 May.
Quite feasible, then, that insufficient time remained on 2 May to get the scam under way.
As it happens, I'm not one of those who believes that the "Abduction" was a shambles, and this indicates that it was a spontaneous event, totally unprepared. We may have holed it, but it's still unfortunately holding water today, nearly 5 years later.

Gerry said on the phone; 'It's a disaster!' Now that is a weird description of suddenly losing a child.
It is however, a perfectly logical way to describe a plan gone pear-shaped.
Murat did say much later that it was the biggest c....up in history.

Besides: Kate said to her mother 'She's gone, Mum, she's gone'. That too is more reminiscent of an expected demise after an illness than a sudden event. If she believed, as we have to, that Maddie was abducted and started off with 'They've taken her', 'She's gone' doesn't really follow for me.
'They've taken her' and then? I'd follow with talking about everybody looking for her, the police etc. But not the very final 'She's gone'.
It's always been my belief that the T7 and some but not all family were fed a story with an uncertain ending, Maddie staying alive or not.
Whichever way, the family were waiting for those calls imo.
TM told a lot of lies, different lies for different people.

Now look at me Kiko, messing up a perfectly good thread with a post that belongs in Forensics Linguistics. ooops

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by Miraflores on 03.02.12 14:43

Gerry's comment about ' there's no evidence that Madeleine is dead, there's no evidence that we caused her dearh' should have been 'there's no evidence that Madeleine is dead, we hope and pray that she will be found safe and sound...'

Well, at least, I think that's what most parents would hope for.

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by tigger on 03.02.12 17:51

@Miraflores wrote:Gerry's comment about ' there's no evidence that Madeleine is dead, there's no evidence that we caused her dearh' should have been 'there's no evidence that Madeleine is dead, we hope and pray that she will be found safe and sound...'

Well, at least, I think that's what most parents would hope for.

Quite, that what they should have said.

Just like the news they received when they were told the child was raped and thrown into the Arade dam. "That's wonderful news!' (the police were wrong to make us arguidos) - not O my God, no!

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by Ross on 03.02.12 21:05

Every time the case was referred to in the media the word used should have been 'disappeared', and if the word 'abducted' was used it should have always had a qualifier 'claimed by the parents' or somesuch.

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by Nina on 03.02.12 21:21

Each time a friend or relative arrived in PdL they should have actually searched instead of just having a freeby holiday in the sun. And watching the twins doesn't count as the parents were not searching when they travelled around, they were fund raising and I have read only 13% was actually spent on searching.

Kate and Gerry built up a lovely tan up to their sudden dash back to the UK. I live in Spain and have not got such a tan.

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by aquila on 03.02.12 21:28

@Nina wrote:Each time a friend or relative arrived in PdL they should have actually searched instead of just having a freeby holiday in the sun. And watching the twins doesn't count as the parents were not searching when they travelled around, they were fund raising and I have read only 13% was actually spent on searching.

Kate and Gerry built up a lovely tan up to their sudden dash back to the UK. I live in Spain and have not got such a tan.

according to rogatory interviews the twins were taken to the creche (to keep things as normal as possible)...unbelievable!

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by Nina on 03.02.12 21:35

@aquila wrote:
@Nina wrote:Each time a friend or relative arrived in PdL they should have actually searched instead of just having a freeby holiday in the sun. And watching the twins doesn't count as the parents were not searching when they travelled around, they were fund raising and I have read only 13% was actually spent on searching.

Kate and Gerry built up a lovely tan up to their sudden dash back to the UK. I live in Spain and have not got such a tan.

according to rogatory interviews the twins were taken to the creche (to keep things as normal as possible)...unbelievable!

Oh! so that took care of a few hours, just as before then, kids in the creche all day with just the need to make a quick sandwich or fish finger, sorry seabass, at lunch time. Tea at the creche high tea sesh then bath and bed. Easy peasy.

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by Ross on 03.02.12 21:36

@aquila wrote:according to rogatory interviews the twins were taken to the creche (to keep things as normal as possible)...unbelievable!

Shouldn't the parents have looked, you know, a bit upset?

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by Nina on 03.02.12 21:52

@Ross wrote:
@aquila wrote:according to rogatory interviews the twins were taken to the creche (to keep things as normal as possible)...unbelievable!

Shouldn't the parents have looked, you know, a bit upset?

Kate's nails should have been ragged from turning over every stone. They should have been reminded by supporting family and friends to have a hot drink or a meal. They should have clung to each other with worry and for comfort and their own special support.

They should have searched.

A true story, honest.

We lost a cat 6 years ago, the sister of our cat Perky. We hunted for Pinky, the sister for weeks. We walked miles calling her name, looked for a body and prayed we wouldn't find one. We put up posters with her photograph. We searched day and night calling her name. I worried myself sick, couldn't eat or sleep, but eventually came to terms with her having gone for ever. And never stopped looking and in my own way always had an eye open for her.

Two days ago we found her. Big and shiney and obviously very well fed and cared for. We made ourselves known to her owners and left her there as she is happy and we love her.

So our 6 year search for a beloved cat is now ended.

And all that for a cat, not a child.

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by aquila on 03.02.12 21:58

Nina, if my Son had gone missing I'd have had to be reminded to clean my teeth never mind doing my hair and wearing jewellery.

as for having any appetite...back to the sea bass.

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by Nina on 03.02.12 22:25

@aquila wrote:Nina, if my Son had gone missing I'd have had to be reminded to clean my teeth never mind doing my hair and wearing jewellery.

as for having any appetite...back to the sea bass.

Aquila, exactly. Neither of them showed any signs of this level of desperation. And anyone saying "ah well they put on a brave face" In my opinion what they had on their faces wasn't a forced smile, wasn't a brave face. They revelled in every moment.

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by tigger on 04.02.12 7:21

On their return to the UK in September 07, they should have been interviewed by social services and some kind of supervision order should have been made out to protect the twins.
A psychological assessment of the parents and the children would also have been made.
At the very least weekly visits/checks by the social services should have taken place.



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Re: What should have happened?

Post by kikoraton on 04.02.12 8:26

6 years to find your cat, Nina!!! And what a happy ending. We did exactly as you did for our cat, one year ago. She was chipped,so we still hope one day to get that call. We hope that if she should be cared for and happy, we shall do the same as you did. You have a very generous spirit!

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by Ross on 04.02.12 9:21

As soon as the police arrived the parents should have given them the memory card from their camera so that they had the most up to date images of Madeleine.

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by dentdelion on 04.02.12 11:12

And handed over cuddle cat and pink blanket as unique personal items with her scent so as to help with sniffer dog search.

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 04.02.12 12:08

Kate McCann, when finding Maddie 'gone', 'knowing' her to be abducted, should have either telephoned Gerry or the Tapas, OR (mindful that, there being SUCH a small time window the 'abductor' could well be around) picked up both twins and ran to Tapas bar, screaming 'Maddie's disappeared! She's not there! Oh, help!'
Police immediately called as precaution. Maybe two adults look after remaining children and everyone else goes out to search.
Make 100%, totally sure, that no-one enter the apartment, mindful of the fact that forensic evidence leading to your daughters abductor could be all over the apartment.
Give an up-to-date photo AND description of your daughter to the GNR and PJ - then listen to and oblige them when they tell you 'no media'. Trust them to do their job.
Then, fall to pieces, barely sleeping, eating or bathing for days. Nothing is important. Certainly no jogging or colour-and-jewellery-co-ordinated outfits for weeks.

That's what should have happened.....

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by Nina on 04.02.12 17:17

What shouldn't have happened was that they made a mockery of the seriousness of the situation. Some might say take the pi$$.

This thread is actually making me very angry at the whole parent and friends involvement, and so very sad for that little lass, who was born into the wrong family imo.

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 04.02.12 18:34

@Nina wrote:What shouldn't have happened was that they made a mockery of the seriousness of the situation. Some might say take the pi$$.

This thread is actually making me very angry at the whole parent and friends involvement, and so very sad for that little lass, who was born into the wrong family imo.
Yep Nina, I'm with you 100%... She was definitely born into the wrong family IMO too. I was watching some old clips yesterday on YouTube. There's a video 'the mccanns never physically searched' where the interviewer asks Kate if she feels she should have searched. If you watch carefully (its fleeting, but very definitely there) you can see Kate suppressing what seems to be a giggle or laugh just before she then takes a deep breath and starts waffling. Vile. IMO, a child is dead, and they are making money off the back of that and off anyone who DARES to hint they don't believe their story. The little mite deserved far, far better.
What makes me truly, truly angry though is Social Services in this country. They are rotten to the core. Baby P's are happening on a weekly basis, and they will continue to happen while social workers allow themselves to be swayed by appearances - a good job, nice house, tidy garden. With children who are abused every which way. Whilst children are ripped from loving homes on the flimsiest most banal of reasons. This carries on under a veil of secrecy called the Family Courts. Poisonous and secret and accountable to no-one. They MUST be put under scrutiny. Easy targets eg single mums are hounded mercilessly whilst the cowards won't go near real problem families. They really are a disgusting organisation. I'm not saying all children's social workers are bad, and some probably go into it with good intentions but most become corrupted by the system in the end.
As an end result, loving happy families can be ruined forever while children who desperately need interventions are left to be abused some more. Its all wrong.
Now, Kate and Gerry openly 'admit' leaving three children under four alone, in the dark, in a foreign country while they partied. Those children SHOULD be subject to CP of some description. I'm damned certain that if I had done what they SAY they did I'd only ever get to see my sons in a contact centre!
It is certainly possible, despite Gerry's claim that a senior SS official branded their actions 'well within the realms of responsible parenting', that Sean and Amelie WERE put on a register. We'd never know if they were due to all the secrecy! I'd love to believe that in a case such as this where 3 kids are left alone and one is 'lost' SS would act, but I lost my faith in them many moons ago. Had Kate and Gerry been Karen Matthews neighbour OTOH, the twins I'll bet wouldve been adopted out by now!
Its so, so wrong.

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Re: What should have happened?

Post by Guest on 04.02.12 19:07

Here's a short version of the clip that Rainbow-Fairy mentions. It was difficult for me to concentrate after the theatrical close-up of CuddleCat!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YWCVSjIJk8

Whenever the McCanns talk of being busy, this song comes to mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuxSl_4yLz4

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