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The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Praia on 22.01.12 20:51

We are back to whether the DNA control sample really was Madeleine McCann's.We can't confidently rule things in or out due to DNA, imo.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by tigger on 22.01.12 22:07

@kikoraton wrote:Tigger - I agree absolutely that the whole "abduction" scam, the Fund, John McCann's resignation from AstraZeneca etc etc were all planned all along. I have been convinced for some time that, for whatever reason (and I suspect some kind of medical condition or experimentation) she was eased out of this life on the first night. But now I'm thinking "what if GA has some strong evidence for saying that she died on 3 May, and not a moment before?" "what if Burgau or some other place was used to keep her hidden away from the OC?" "what might be the reason for doing so?" "why not just get it over with, since she was never going to return to Rothley?"
If we put our heads together, perhaps we'll come up with the answers.

Sorry, brain not in gear today.
I'll do this properly tomorrow I think.
But: we have no firm evidence of Maddie on the bus, or on the airport steps as being actually on that holiday.
Same for the playground photo - nothing to show it was that holiday or even Maddie.
The tennis photo could have been anywhere any time.
The pool photo we can leave out.
She needs to have been in 5a for a period of time.
We are not sure about the Donegal visit - something fishy about that. Imo photographs definitely pasted.
We do know about Burgau, even fishier.
There is a sighting from a waiter at Zaival beach at Easter.
Trouble is that we can't place her anywhere in OC, except for the evidence in 5a. In fact it's easier if she isn't there at all.
I do think that Snr. Amaral went for the Thursday night because that would change their story only a little. If he'd gone for imo the more likely scenario it would have been harder to prove because of it's complexity.
I'm glad we're on the same page again. Sleep well.



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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by tigger on 23.01.12 8:33

@Praia wrote:We are back to whether the DNA control sample really was Madeleine McCann's.We can't confidently rule things in or out due to DNA, imo.

To be honest, we'd be better off without any DNA. In the first place it's no longer of use in a court case, the second FSS report is imo a whitewash and the first does seem to align very well with other evidence, but is inadmissible.

So I am in favour of checking evidence only with the first FSS report and to take note of the DNA evidence the PJ themselves have produced.
If Maddie was hardly present in 5a, that explains the lack of DNA very well.

A family with three children and the basic principle of (is it Locke's?) leaving traces would have left the apartment with plenty of DNA and other evidence. If there is so very little and none of Maddie, perhaps she simply wasn't there (long enough) to leave traces.
As you pointed out, the neighbors would be able to hear pretty well all that went on in adjacent flats, so if 5a was used just as 'a stage' it would explain why Mrs. Fenn never noticed them.
Wasn't it Gerry who said the group were using 5a as a 'toilet stop?'. If you have children there, surely they'd wake up with the noise? But makes more sense if all the other children are in an apartment or their own and if none of the doctors were keen to use the restaurant facilities.



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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Willo on 23.01.12 9:35

I can't get my mind around the two Madeleines theory.

This senario undoubtedly relies on the premise that Madeleines death was premeditated.

Why would the McCann and their associates go all the way to Portugal to lose Madeleine when with the resources they surely have they could have pulled off the desired result at home? The 'abduction' theory with all due respect to the planners was hardly a well organised event. It has so many holes in it that it has kept a someone very busy overseeing the cover up of a very amateurish plot. One would have thought that the pre arranged abduction would have been organised so it was watertight, having no links to the many big brother types mentioned so far in this case. With more to be uncovered as the case moves on I expect.

It also seems strange throwing the investigation into another countries lap when it would have been far easier to keep it 'in house' so to speak. Stupidly taking a chance that the Portugese police were not as alert as Mr Amaral and his team were, a chance they didn't have to take.

The manner in which events unfolded the night Madeliene was said to have been abducted showed to me a hastily conceived plot by desperate people. With few options available, quick call(s) for advice would have been made. The body for whatever reason could not be examined so with little time to sort things out abduction was decided on. Once they said 'abduction' that was their mantra.

If Madeleine was dead before they left home what was the point in staging anything, why go away on holiday to divert attention, when in fact they seemed to have courted more attention in Portugal. More attention than a few, some as yet faceless, people would appreciate, I'm sure.

There are clever powerful players involved and to me they would not concoct such an elaborate cover up if it was premeditated. No they were thinking on their feet and they made mistakes. Mistakes that hopefully will come back to haunt them.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Guest on 23.01.12 9:53

@tigger wrote:To be honest, we'd be better off without any DNA. In the first place it's no longer of use in a court case,

What makes you say that? That's the first I've heard of it.

the second FSS report is imo a whitewash and the first does seem to align very well with other evidence, but is inadmissible.

Why is it inadmissible tigger? Can you please explain?

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Guest on 23.01.12 10:03

@Willo wrote:I can't get my mind around the two Madeleines theory.

This senario undoubtedly relies on the premise that Madeleines death was premeditated.

Why would the McCann and their associates go all the way to Portugal to lose Madeleine when with the resources they surely have they could have pulled off the desired result at home?

Perhaps it always had something to do with something that only happens in Portugal and not on ones own doorstep? Think Gasper, Jersey, Casa Pia, maybe?

The 'abduction' theory with all due respect to the planners was hardly a well organised event. It has so many holes in it that it has kept a someone very busy overseeing the cover up of a very amateurish plot. One would have thought that the pre arranged abduction would have been organised so it was watertight, having no links to the many big brother types mentioned so far in this case. With more to be uncovered as the case moves on I expect.

Agree, but if there were amateur event organisers involved, it's no wonder it played out as it did.

It also seems strange throwing the investigation into another countries lap when it would have been far easier to keep it 'in house' so to speak. Stupidly taking a chance that the Portugese police were not as alert as Mr Amaral and his team were, a chance they didn't have to take.

I think, just like Vegas. What happens in Portugal, stays in Portugal. Look at what happened to Jersey.

The manner in which events unfolded the night Madeliene was said to have been abducted showed to me a hastily conceived plot by desperate people. With few options available, quick call(s) for advice would have been made. The body for whatever reason could not be examined so with little time to sort things out abduction was decided on. Once they said 'abduction' that was their mantra.

If Madeleine was dead before they left home what was the point in staging anything, why go away on holiday to divert attention, when in fact they seemed to have courted more attention in Portugal. More attention than a few, some as yet faceless, people would appreciate, I'm sure.

I think Kiko is right. The timeline is between arrival on the 28th and before creche began on the 29th. Personally, I think it was during the first night out on the town.

There are clever powerful players involved and to me they would not concoct such an elaborate cover up if it was premeditated. No they were thinking on their feet and they made mistakes. Mistakes that hopefully will come back to haunt them.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Willo on 23.01.12 10:16

The 'abduction' theory with all due respect to the planners was hardly a well organised event. It has so many holes in it that it has kept a someone very busy overseeing the cover up of a very amateurish plot. One would have thought that the pre arranged abduction would have been organised so it was watertight, having no links to the many big brother types mentioned so far in this case. With more to be uncovered as the case moves on I expect.

Stella wrote:Agree, but if there were amateur event organisers involved, it's no wonder it played out as it did.


What I'm trying to say Stella is that these are people with a lot to lose. IMO there is no way they would make a plan so shoddy like that in advance. If it was premedited it would have been a far more professional job.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by tigger on 23.01.12 11:04

Hi Willo, You are 100% right on the Delboy plot as I like to call it. But definitely preplanned, lots of evidence that way. Just because they've been to doctor school, doesn't mean they're bright enough to pull of such a scam. Then have the chorus in the shape of T7 et al and you've got a recipe for disaster. They must already have had a safety net in place. They also expected to be believed, things were just so because they said so. Surely you know people like that?

A)I think there was the abduction, get rich quick fund, fast track to celebrity status - definitely has all the hall marks of the McCanns. Shoddy, full of holes and the actual fake abduction like a Feydau farce. These are not very bright people, but instead very arrogant and convinced of their own superiority. It comes out in their interviews, in Rome preparing itself for their visit etc.

The marketing ploy was good, therefore he had help from professionals in that field ''before the fact."

B) the very quick cover-up was professional, powerful and closed holes in present and later evidence that the McCanns could never have touched.

So basically the McCanns did something that was highly inconvenient to third parties who were able to pull lots of strings to stabilise the situation. Stabilise, they couldn't make it go away.

Therefore there is a direct or indirect connection between A and B. We've found an awful lot and amazing work has been done here.

The choice of Portugal is possibly because both Gerry and Payne knew the place. It was also useful to present them as Brits, beset by foreign rules and bereft of help.

Xenophobia (part of the plan imo)took hold right from the start, fed by the T9 and at 10.00 am on the 4th, by none less than the consul himself, reporting to the Ambassador that the PJ were useless. That was pretty well a snap judgement and means to me that the cover up had already started. So it would be somone high up who had already pressed the panic button.

Portugal - strangely enough - was also where they meant to stay until Maddie was found. Which would be errrm never.

Pulling the scam off at home would not have been so easy, imo. For a start, the UK is rather short on 'lawless villages'and paedophilia is outlawed. According to Kate and Gerry it's rampant in Portugal and nothing is done about it. Even the OC was awash with unsavoury types, JT spotted several, G and K, and various other people on reflection saw all sorts of things. Selective or constructive memory can do wonders!

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even the most 'professional' premeditations are suspect

Post by bobbin on 23.01.12 11:13

Premeditation is a
serious possibility, but it will always have its weaknesses.


The whole problem with
premeditation is that it is supposed to ‘mimic’ reality. For that it needs to
be sufficiently convincing to convince even the skeptics.


Anything that is
contrived however, is just that, contrived, and there are too many people who
can smell something when it is fishy.


What sets off alarm
bells? A ‘gut feeling’, when the first reported facts do not continue to match
up to the facts that then get presented. These alarm bells cause people to look
harder than they might otherwise have done.


Contradicting facts
cause people to investigate. Just think of John F Kennedy, shot apparently from
behind yet he initially falls backwards, (we were watching the footage as it
happened) blood shooting out the back, body gets ‘lost’ somewhere for some days
and photo of scalp (whose scalp) is issued later, as being proof that his head
was not blown out backwards.


9/11, so much footage
(BBC reporting building 7 has gone down, when it was still standing), so many
professional (engineer etc.) reports that show the facts, as presented, not to
be possible.


Kelly, body initially
reported in one position, then found elsewhere and in another position,
professionals again on record claiming the suicide was not possible in the way
claimed by authorities.


The list goes on. The
point is, contrivance will always be less plausible than the truth. Once one
leak, one failure, one fact out of place is detected, then the attention is
drawn to all of the rest. There will always be just too many facts and factors to be controlled, which even those who believe themselves to be gods, will not eventually be able to control.


The inconsistencies in
the disappearance of Madeleine have rung alarm bells since the very first
interview that Gerry and Kate McCann gave out.


The more that couple and their entourage fill our airwaves with their ever changing bleating, the more people are doubting the version of the story as it would like to
be told, by those who thought themselves clever enough to pull it off.


When we see ‘force’
‘threat’ and ‘laws’ being used to silence those who question the ‘official
version’ we know that there is a cover up and that there are individuals who
fear greatly, being exposed.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by pennylane on 23.01.12 11:19

@Willo wrote:The 'abduction' theory with all due respect to the planners was hardly a well organised event. It has so many holes in it that it has kept a someone very busy overseeing the cover up of a very amateurish plot. One would have thought that the pre arranged abduction would have been organised so it was watertight, having no links to the many big brother types mentioned so far in this case. With more to be uncovered as the case moves on I expect.

Stella wrote:Agree, but if there were amateur event organisers involved, it's no wonder it played out as it did.


What I'm trying to say Stella is that these are people with a lot to lose. IMO there is no way they would make a plan so shoddy like that in advance. If it was premedited it would have been a far more professional job.

Absolutely agree 100% Willo.

Pre-planned... never in a million years... in my humble opinion.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by tigger on 23.01.12 11:20

Stella wrote:
@tigger wrote:To be honest, we'd be better off without any DNA. In the first place it's no longer of use in a court case,

What makes you say that? That's the first I've heard of it.

the second FSS report is imo a whitewash and the first does seem to align very well with other evidence, but is inadmissible.

Why is it inadmissible tigger? Can you please explain?

Hi Stella, Personally, I believe the first FSS report. But that was surely made redundant by the second report? Which imo was a whitewash. The ridiculous event of contamination in a state of the art lab cannot be believed.All staff in such a lab have their DNA recorded and checked against results.

I took it for granted that:

the admission in the second report of the FSS that the samples were contaminated and

the fact that the actual samples have been thrown out (again imo unbelievable - they still had DNA from 15 years back in the S.Lawrence case - there are cases going decades back - evidence in an ongoing case here is thrown out - contamination is no excuse because such evidence is kept in case more advanced techniques may be implemented in the future that would correct the original findings).

would mean that no court can accept these findings as evidence.

We of course, can include the first report in our theories and I think we should, it was crucial.

I think they never thought the villa would be searched, cadaver odour would last so long and as for a car they rented weeks later, it must have been the biggest shock of their lives.

Which makes it look pretty good for 5a being the stage, and early demise of Maddie thus not leaving no DNA in 5a.

A wild card: Entirely imo a possibility but no more: given the locations where the dogs alerted in 5a, it could also be a tennis bag, hidden for a short while behind the sofa. Some time later, an empty tennis bag in the wardrobe. Would that explain the particular points where the dogs alerted? I.e. that Maddie had never been in 5a whilst alive, but for a short time, soon after she died.

Stella, you know I'm not a troll, so whoosh what you like. I just liked to invert the way one looks at things.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Guest on 23.01.12 13:10

For the record I have never "whoosh"ed anyones posts.

It is a common suggestion of late, despite assurances from both Candyfloss, Sharonl and myself, that this does not happen.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by tigger on 23.01.12 15:05

Stella wrote:For the record I have never "whoosh"ed anyones posts.

It is a common suggestion of late, despite assurances from both Candyfloss, Sharonl and myself, that this does not happen.

I do apologise, I just felt we're so under attack lately, to let you know I'd understand. I really feel all the moderators are working incredibly hard, every day! It's just not up to me to decide what's suitable to post and what isn't .

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by kikoraton on 23.01.12 16:14

I don't think there's any way Gerry would have staged this in UK, where every cop knows that you look hard and long at the parents first.
Gerry is arrogant, and would have expected to get away with it in Portugal, where he could use his "charm" on old-school UK diplomats. Once they had swallowed his story, they'd never back-track in the sure knowledge that they'd look stupid. And in any case, didn't Gerry believe that Portugal has stupid police and lawless hills? So different from his fortress at Rothley, where abduction by a stubble-chinned weirdo would be a definite no-no.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by tigger on 23.01.12 19:08

@bobbin wrote:Premeditation is a
serious possibility, but it will always have its weaknesses.


The whole problem with
premeditation is that it is supposed to ‘mimic’ reality. For that it needs to
be sufficiently convincing to convince even the skeptics.


Anything that is
contrived however, is just that, contrived, and there are too many people who
can smell something when it is fishy.


What sets off alarm
bells? A ‘gut feeling’, when the first reported facts do not continue to match
up to the facts that then get presented. These alarm bells cause people to look
harder than they might otherwise have done.


Contradicting facts
cause people to investigate. Just think of John F Kennedy, shot apparently from
behind yet he initially falls backwards, (we were watching the footage as it
happened) blood shooting out the back, body gets ‘lost’ somewhere for some days
and photo of scalp (whose scalp) is issued later, as being proof that his head
was not blown out backwards.


9/11, so much footage
(BBC reporting building 7 has gone down, when it was still standing), so many
professional (engineer etc.) reports that show the facts, as presented, not to
be possible.


Kelly, body initially
reported in one position, then found elsewhere and in another position,
professionals again on record claiming the suicide was not possible in the way
claimed by authorities.


The list goes on. The
point is, contrivance will always be less plausible than the truth. Once one
leak, one failure, one fact out of place is detected, then the attention is
drawn to all of the rest. There will always be just too many facts and factors to be controlled, which even those who believe themselves to be gods, will not eventually be able to control.


The inconsistencies in
the disappearance of Madeleine have rung alarm bells since the very first
interview that Gerry and Kate McCann gave out.


The more that couple and their entourage fill our airwaves with their ever changing bleating, the more people are doubting the version of the story as it would like to
be told, by those who thought themselves clever enough to pull it off.


When we see ‘force’
‘threat’ and ‘laws’ being used to silence those who question the ‘official
version’ we know that there is a cover up and that there are individuals who
fear greatly, being exposed.

Thanks Bobbin, way to go! Yes Kennedy got me on to 9/11 to 7/7 etc. with Kennedy, I suddenly thought about officer Tippett, very little about that and made no sense. Tippett was the weak link in the Kennedy story but imo also (forensic linguistics kicking in) governor Connolly shouting: 'They are going to kill us all' - He knew, he and Johnson had tried everything to keep him out of the limo with Kennedy.
There's quite an interesting parallel in the power play behind the scenes and the various reasons a number of people wanted Kennedy dead.
Now what does that pattern remind us of?

Building 7 was the weak link in the 9/11 narrative, 7/7 had no video footage to speak of (in areas saturated with cameras) and the wrong train time for the terrorists to be on those trains. And so on. Kelly, as you say. The Diana murder theory is however idiotic, woman should have worn a seat belt. End of story.
But who is going to be the weakest link in this story?

Re Kennedy, the amateur photoshopping of the Zapruder film is on youtube somewhere. There is apparently a true copy in existence which shows the limo stopping for a second or so, just before the first shot. For me, although this is mostly off topic - Kennedy's assassination was the end of democracy. After that the world was totally in the power of multi nationals. So what's so special about keeping the McCanns happy?

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by aiyoyo on 23.01.12 21:19

@Willo wrote:The 'abduction' theory with all due respect to the planners was hardly a well organised event. It has so many holes in it that it has kept a someone very busy overseeing the cover up of a very amateurish plot. One would have thought that the pre arranged abduction would have been organised so it was watertight, having no links to the many big brother types mentioned so far in this case. With more to be uncovered as the case moves on I expect.

Stella wrote:Agree, but if there were amateur event organisers involved, it's no wonder it played out as it did.


What I'm trying to say Stella is that these are people with a lot to lose. IMO there is no way they would make a plan so shoddy like that in advance. If it was premedited it would have been a far more professional job.

Willo, I agree with you. If they were so professional in their cover-up plot and media spin, making use also of their influential connections to their advantage, why were their abduction plot so amateurish and shoddy? Either they are cunningly clever or they are not, doctors or otherwise make no difference.

If they are so well organised in one area it would mean they are capable of being systematically organised, so why the diabolically weak abduction plot when that is more important to get it watertight?

I believe Maddie's demise is accidental but the cover up is premeditated, hence the weak abduction plot but professional and strong cover up.


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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Gillyspot on 23.01.12 21:41

I am with you both.

If they wanted Madeleine to be "abducted" why not when Kate was walking down the beach / countryside etc - if no one else was about I am sure most would have believed her.

Why this complicated timeline that clearly doesn't make sense and then all the suing of doubters.

If they were clearly innocent they would have answered the questions when they were asked of them - through Team McCann. Portuguese secrecy laws never stopped them getting their point accross before did it? Kate McCann "green light" etc says it all.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by tigger on 23.01.12 22:12

@aiyoyo wrote:
@Willo wrote:The 'abduction' theory with all due respect to the planners was hardly a well organised event. It has so many holes in it that it has kept a someone very busy overseeing the cover up of a very amateurish plot. One would have thought that the pre arranged abduction would have been organised so it was watertight, having no links to the many big brother types mentioned so far in this case. With more to be uncovered as the case moves on I expect.

Stella wrote:Agree, but if there were amateur event organisers involved, it's no wonder it played out as it did.


What I'm trying to say Stella is that these are people with a lot to lose. IMO there is no way they would make a plan so shoddy like that in advance. If it was premedited it would have been a far more professional job.

Willo, I agree with you. If they were so professional in their cover-up plot and media spin, making use also of their influential connections to their advantage, why were their abduction plot so amateurish and shoddy? Either they are cunningly clever or they are not, doctors or otherwise make no difference.

If they are so well organised in one area it would mean they are capable of being systematically organised, so why the diabolically weak abduction plot when that is more important to get it watertight?

I believe Maddie's demise is accidental but the cover up is premeditated, hence the weak abduction plot but professional and strong cover up.


But surely the point is that the media spin and the cover up is nothing to do with them? The people in charge of that would like nothing better than that the McCanns would disappear off the face of the earth.

Imo it was planned, plenty of evidence and pointers for that. Advance marketing advice too, definitely professional. The abduction plan was ready in outline, have you never seen a perfect looking plan go wrong? I think mainly because there were so many players and Delboy isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. If he said the shutters were broken, the were broken. Delboy is totally arrogant, they were talking to foreigners for goodness sakes, practically dagos.
Besides, Murat is down as saying that it's the biggest c.... up in history.

The phone records, the creche records, the many fake photographs, the whole thing was far too complicated, it was bound to go wrong. But you try telling TM that. They had a cunning plan and a safety net. I wouldn't think the safety net operators are too thrilled to still be working on the damage control. That's why they hate people like us so much.




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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Gillyspot on 23.01.12 22:30

I simply think Madeleine died earlier on in the week and for some reason they chose to "stage" an "abduction"

Alex Woolfall PR "crisis" (AKA Reputation guru) set the scene. Remember he was representing Mark Warner NOT the McCanns but WHO actually remembers that? Typical PR tactics. From a very interesting blog.

" great deal of credit must go to Alex Woodfall, the top PR man seconded to the Mark Warner holiday village by the Bell Pottinger Group, whose boss, Lord Bell, was Margaret Thatcher’s PR guru when she was Prime Minister.
Day after day there have been relentless, sympathetic, upbeat reports of sightings of suspicious white vans, a man taking pictures of children on a beach, two men and a mystery blonde talking to a child near a supermarket, a lurking man with dark skin and finally a suspect – though there is not enough evidence to charge him.
At times the pictures have seemed almost straight out of Hollywood - with long shots of Madeleine’s parents walking hand-in-hand alone on a deserted beach, the camera crews at a discreet distance.

http://rebeccahamiltonreports.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.html

From then on it was Gordon Brown wanting to win the popularity contest and then Clarrie got involved (always one for a big story and not afraid of lying) and as they say - the rest is history.

Just my thooughts though.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by tigger on 24.01.12 7:42

@Gillyspot wrote:I simply think Madeleine died earlier on in the week and for some reason they chose to "stage" an "abduction"
snipped

From then on it was Gordon Brown wanting to win the popularity contest and then Clarrie got involved (always one for a big story and not afraid of lying) and as they say - the rest is history.

Just my thooughts though.

But do ask yourself, why did Gordon never get photographed with the two? Lots of votes! Why did Gordon say right at the start that it was a matter of national security? I think he may be the fons et origo of the cover up.
Why wasn't he much in the news about it after a few months? When the McCanns were safely home after his totally illegal interventions?
No TM knows, Gordon knows, Clarrie knows at bit, enough to keep him in money and work for the rest of his life. Clarrie may not have known at the start, but like some lawyers isn't interested in the truth, just the ingredients he can make an story out of to tell the press.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by pennylane on 24.01.12 10:29

@aiyoyo wrote:
@Willo wrote:The 'abduction' theory with all due respect to the planners was hardly a well organised event. It has so many holes in it that it has kept a someone very busy overseeing the cover up of a very amateurish plot. One would have thought that the pre arranged abduction would have been organised so it was watertight, having no links to the many big brother types mentioned so far in this case. With more to be uncovered as the case moves on I expect.

Stella wrote:Agree, but if there were amateur event organisers involved, it's no wonder it played out as it did.


What I'm trying to say Stella is that these are people with a lot to lose. IMO there is no way they would make a plan so shoddy like that in advance. If it was premedited it would have been a far more professional job.

Willo, I agree with you. If they were so professional in their cover-up plot and media spin, making use also of their influential connections to their advantage, why were their abduction plot so amateurish and shoddy? Either they are cunningly clever or they are not, doctors or otherwise make no difference.

If they are so well organised in one area it would mean they are capable of being systematically organised, so why the diabolically weak abduction plot when that is more important to get it watertight?

I believe Maddie's demise is accidental but the cover up is premeditated, hence the weak abduction plot but professional and strong cover up.


I totally agree Willo and Aiyoyo. A desperately cobbled together plan, very quickly executed to cover up the demise of their child, as they knew full well the shocking events surrounding her death would have resulted in the twins being taken into care, and the end of their careers and aspirations. The entire abduction façade was hastily planned and went quickly to worms.

Without all the slick and cunning advice, as soon as others were running the show, the pair would be in jail now. Of that there is not a doubt in my mind.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 24.01.12 10:51






I'm afraid I still can't accept that Maddie died from an accident. I can't accept that any parent who had just lost a child from a sudden and tragic accident could behave like they did in these photos (and the many others).

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by pennylane on 24.01.12 11:23

Hi GEG

Natural emptions may be the toughest of all to allow in under such circumstances as it involves facing the truth.... and when you are juggling enormous lies and trying to keep the brain focussed on an epic façade, I believe it is nigh impossible to do both! We see this time and time again with people who have committed serious crimes.... the one thing the police always say is that the father/mother/perpetrator showed no emotion whatsoever. I believe it may be nigh impossible to do both, and keep the lies afloat.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by jd on 24.01.12 11:24

That 2nd picture, there are many more taken from the same shoot from this day which has them all laughing and smiling like they won the lottery, this particular photo wasn't a one off moment. I'll put them up later. These pictures were taken around 26th-29th May 2007 so just a mere 3 weeks after the event!

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by tigger on 24.01.12 11:46

alyoyo wrote: quote

Willo, I agree with you. If they were so professional in their cover-up plot and media spin, making use also of their influential connections to their advantage, why were their abduction plot so amateurish and shoddy? Either they are cunningly clever or they are not, doctors or otherwise make no difference.

If they are so well organised in one area it would mean they are capable of being systematically organised, so why the diabolically weak abduction plot when that is more important to get it watertight?

I believe Maddie's demise is accidental but the cover up is premeditated, hence the weak abduction plot but professional and strong cover up.
unquote.

Surely the part in bold is impossible? If the death was accidental no one could know exactly when, where and how that accident would occur. So surely it follows that preparing an elaborate cover up for something you didn't know was going to happen is not an option?
If you did know an accident was going to happen it's no longer an accident.


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