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The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

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The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by bristow on 21.01.12 19:29

Forgive me if there is a thread already on this subject, I have looked but can't find one.

I have just refreshed my memory about the hidden basement at the home of Murat and his mother by reading about it on wiki.

'It also emerged that a British architect, who built the villa in 1993,
was ignored when he called police about a hidden basement within the
property'.[47][48]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Murat

Does anyone know whether this is true and if so, could Madeleine have been concealed there for a while before the hiring of the Renault?

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by kikoraton on 21.01.12 19:59

Ever since Dreyfus's book "Belle familie" came out and we were given (can't remember where - probably on twitter) a synopsis of it, I've wondered why Dreyfus made his RM character a paedophile. Just from what he'd read about RM's computer? Or did he have other information?

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Gillyspot on 21.01.12 20:21

From the Daily Telegraph

"Expat Des Taylor, 78, a retired architect, said he tried to call police twice when he saw on television that Murat had been detained to warn them of special features in the house which may go undetected.
However when he called police headquarters in Portimao he says he was told to ring back later because they could not understand English.
He tried again to no avail, and finally had to ask his house maid to call two more stations before anyone took his details last night – 48 hours after the search began.
Mr Taylor said today: "The Portuguese police are useless."
He revealed that the house – 100 yards from where Madeleine was snatched - had a 9ft by 5ft basement hidden under the removable tiles in the living room. It is believed police have re-entered the property and are searching it today."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1551744/Madeleine-police-want-to-interview-Russian.html

From PJ Files - Meeting with Des Taylor

"About 19h00 the same team went to meet Mr Taylor, an English Civil Engineer,
responsible for the original design of "Casa Liliana", and having been present
at all times during its construction.
--- This work had the objective of collecting information about the existence of
a trap-door giving access to an "empty" area below the house, as well as the
existence of any buried/underground features.
--- Next to the home of Mr Taylor, better identified as Desmond William Taylor,
born 1929, permanent resident holding a UK passport, situated at Quinta do
Pinhal ... Bispo, in conversation with him it was possible to determine the
following:
--- He, from memory and given that it had been the last house he had designed
and built, he had drawn a "sketch" to provide a more concrete idea about the
house in question. Having analysed that document and compared it with the
official plan [blueprint] obtained during the investigation, there appeared to
be no significant difference worthy of remark. It was determined that the house
is built on very uneven ground, having been adapted through movement of earth,
removing earth from above and construction of a supporting wall, followed by a
'hole' covered with beams and supports in the lower part, creating an "empty"
space below the house extending the entire area of the lounge up to the outside
passage that borders the house. That "empty" space could have a maximum drop of
1,5 metres. During the construction access was maintained into this space, by
withholding a small number of supports, with a view to running all the plumbing
and drainage under the house, as was done. At the end of the work and after the
owner was asked if he wanted to keep that access or close it up permanently, the
owner opted for the second idea, the access then having been closed up with
large bricks. Mr Taylor stated that there was no other way into the space As for
septic tanks, Mr Taylor said the only one, in fibreglass, is nearby the pool
covered by earth. The highest part of it could be about 0,5 metres below ground.
From memory that tank was located in the area to the front of the bedroom
currently used by the mother of suspect RM, very close to the two water cisterns
adjacent to the pool which were built to collect and contain rainwater, with the
objective of optimizing the water usage [irrigation/watering] of the property.
The contact number 282... was furnished for any [further] useful clarification. "

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBERT-MURAT.htm

From PJ Files search of Murat's house

"Already today (17 May 2007), at 11h00, this team approached directly Mrs
J.Murat, who asked us into her home - Casa Liliana, for some clarification
understood to be useful. In that way, she gave us access to her main living room
for us to examine the floor covering and any irregularity that might indicate
where once existed the temporary access to the "empty" space beneath that part
of the house. All furniture being moved aside it was observed a regular floor,
made of large brick [tile] of equal composition across the whole surface. The
joints all appeared normal, with grouting the same colour indicating no recent
placement. The entire surface area was covered using a ground-penetrating radar
device without detecting any "hollows", that is, material placed beneath the
floor dissimilar from surrounding material.
--- Outside the house the kitchen garden was examined looking for evidence of
the septic tank, nothing abnormal was detected. That area is covered by
vegetation firmly rooted. No disturbance of the soil of any kind was observed. "


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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Nina on 21.01.12 20:35

I find it very strange that the house had a septic tank being in a town, though small. Surely not all villas/apartment blocks had their own septic tanks, there must have been town sewage.

Praia, can you throw any light on this?

We have our own septic tank as we don't live in a village or town and it is par for the course in isolated places, but RM's mother's place was hardly isolated.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by dentdelion on 21.01.12 21:17

Perhaps it was built before the high density development of the village and it was appropriate to have a septic tank at that stage.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by uppatoffee on 21.01.12 21:21

1993 isn't that early though is it? There would have been a bit of development by then surely?

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Upsy Daisy on 22.01.12 9:19

At the end of the work and after the
owner was asked if he wanted to keep that access or close it up permanently, the
owner opted for the second idea, the access then having been closed up with
large brick
s.

I had a dream a few nights ago about Kate and Gerry asking me for a sample of my hair for them to use. Also in the dream someone invisible whispered in my ear 'if you want to find something that no-one wants you to find look behind that brick wall ' the brick wall being papered over.

Chills down my spine.........

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Guest on 22.01.12 10:00

@bristow wrote:Forgive me if there is a thread already on this subject, I have looked but can't find one.

I have just refreshed my memory about the hidden basement at the home of Murat and his mother by reading about it on wiki.

'It also emerged that a British architect, who built the villa in 1993,
was ignored when he called police about a hidden basement within the
property'.[47][48]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Murat

Does anyone know whether this is true and if so, could Madeleine have been concealed there for a while before the hiring of the Renault?

I have just read in Carole Tranmer Rogatory Interview, that Mrs Fenns's husband built a villa in that area appox. 20 years ago. I am not suggesting it is the same one, but if someone had the resources to check these things out?

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by aquila on 22.01.12 10:21

I just sent a post but it didn't work.

The septic tank is supposedly in this property is a plastic one. I had a house in the Med with a soak-away septic tank. Three large concrete tubes so I'm lead to believe. Anyway it didn't need to be emptied, it soaked away into the hillside. The inspection chamber was covered with well established plants and ground covering plants. Ground covering plants lift like a carpet and when you put them back they show no evidence of disturbance after a day or so.

I'd be interested to see the blue-prints of the construction. Perhaps there was a soak-away septic tank on the original construction. That's a perfect hidey-hole.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Gillyspot on 22.01.12 13:47

Surely the fact that Eddie didn't alert at Murat's home should be significant.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by kikoraton on 22.01.12 17:02

One possible way around that, Gillyspot, would be if Madeleine were sedated and still alive at any such holding-place. No cadaverine!
But there was cadaverine at 5A. One could advance the idea that the direction of movement was therefore Liliana>>>>>>5A, rather than the reverse as Tanner suggested. And if one insisted on including the Smith sighting (I prefer not to) the movement would then, within minutes, be down to the shore.
Now, I've been assuming, because I am devoted to my theory of the Madalene substitute, that Maddie McCann died between arrival in PdL and the opening of the creche on 29 April. But if she had been whisked out of sight, then the only critical event is the recognition many months later of cadaverine smell by Eddie, and death could have taken place at any time up to 2000 on 3 May. (Or even later, but that would mean taking a dangerous risk).
Certain events would fall into place if this were indeed the case. An explanation could be found for Prof Iain Boland Squire's 12-second call to Gerry at 1224 on 3 May (it had to be brief, so there was no time for long expressions of regret). It would also be easier to explain the plethora of calls made from Casa Liliana on the afternoon of 3 May, up to 1930. Murat himself didn't make them, and his Ma was never one for making frequent calls on her house phone or mobile. I've long posted and tweeted that I believe Gerry spent several hours at Casa Liliana that afternoon.
It fits, but that's all at present.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Praia on 22.01.12 17:16

Kiki this could explain Murat's convoluted alibi for himself and Michala on the Thursday. They are all over Lagos, they certainly do not want to be placed in Luz.
Also that if Madeleine was alive til Thurs. it would explain how the McCann's showed no grief during the week.
Some posters saw problems with your theory of death on the Sat. this would cover that.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Praia on 22.01.12 17:34

Kiki supposing not Casa Liliana but an apt. in Burgau?
Have to go but this is worth a think.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by kikoraton on 22.01.12 17:56

Burgau? Possibly. But those phone calls came from Liliana. The two are not mutually exclusive. I was connecting the underground cellar with Tanner's story of Bundleman, thus giving her a modest fig-leaf.
But anyway her haplotypes or those of her maternal line were in the flat in Burgau, were they not? So she can still have her 15 minutes of fame.

And so it came to pass that two of us on the same side, but hitherto with differing views, can consider ourselves reconciled. Gonçalo might well be correct about death on 3 May, in 5A - tho' not, I think, by accident. And I might have been wrong to think that Maddie must necessarily have died before the creche substitute took her place.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Nina on 22.01.12 18:06

@kikoraton wrote:Burgau? Possibly. But those phone calls came from Liliana. The two are not mutually exclusive. I was connecting the underground cellar with Tanner's story of Bundleman, thus giving her a modest fig-leaf.
But anyway her haplotypes or those of her maternal line were in the flat in Burgau, were they not? So she can still have her 15 minutes of fame.

And so it came to pass that two of us on the same side, but hitherto with differing views, can consider ourselves reconciled. Gonçalo might well be correct about death on 3 May, in 5A - tho' not, I think, by accident. And I might have been wrong to think that Maddie must necessarily have died before the creche substitute took her place.

Good evening Kikoraton. Have you ever considered then that there was a substitute but that Madeleine was actually still alive for a number of days but not out in the open?

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by kikoraton on 22.01.12 18:19

That's what I am saying is possible, Nina. She was out of sight, because a substitute was taking her place (tho I don't think the sub turned up at creche as often as the McCs wanted her there).
The cadaver odour has to be explained. Maddie's life might have been prolonged until 3 May (but I doubt beyond) for some reason we don't yet know. Then GA, with his "death was on 3 May" and myself, with my "there was a substitute in the class from 29 April" could both be right.

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Childminding

Post by russiandoll on 22.01.12 18:41

Is it possible that the absence of different people each night from the tapas table was because Maddie was being minded, kept somewhere apart from the other children ? And that in addition some present at the tapas did leave their children alone, going to check periodically? I have always been in favour of the children were looked after in one apartment theory.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Praia on 22.01.12 18:46

Kiki to me this makes sense. I always wondered about Sr Amaral insisting on the Thursday for the death.And how the McCann's kept it together if death was early on.
I now jump to the apt. in Burgau and the eyeshadow photo, was this really the last photo?
I feel sick now wondering what happened in Burgau.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by tigger on 22.01.12 19:21

My vote would go to Burgau, never Murat's home. Murat is far too savvy to do anything like that. Besides, lifting tiles in the living room is quite an enterprise. A later death doesn't explain an awful lot of things.
Murat was a facilitator imo. But I doubt that he got his hands dirty in any way himself. The dogs found nothing.

If the death was a surprise or at least unexpected on the Thursday.
How can we explain the coloboma, the photographs of a two year old girl, ready and waiting just hours afterwards?
The decision to call Sky News first, rather than the police, etc. etc.
Or was all this done during the week whilst she was 'ill'? Sort of 'make the most of it - if she dies we've got abduction, fund etc.'
How, if she fell ill to explain preparation for the abduction from the beginning of the week with the half hourly checking of all children?
We can't explain the pattern of the phone calls, the setting up of the fund, if Maddie fell 'ill' early on and then died unexpectedly?
Which event has to have happened in 5a.

Don't forget that someone booked the Tapas for the whole week with the complete story of checking the children as early as the morning of the 29th? That story was to cover the abduction and only good for the abduction. Not for an unexpected death after an unexpected illness.




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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Praia on 22.01.12 19:27

We did not say it was an unexpected illness.
All you say would fit a plan from the beginning where Madeleine was kept separate from the group.
Maybe sedated. Who knows?
Kiki Madeleine could have been outside Luz from the start.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by kikoraton on 22.01.12 20:10

Tigger - I agree absolutely that the whole "abduction" scam, the Fund, John McCann's resignation from AstraZeneca etc etc were all planned all along. I have been convinced for some time that, for whatever reason (and I suspect some kind of medical condition or experimentation) she was eased out of this life on the first night. But now I'm thinking "what if GA has some strong evidence for saying that she died on 3 May, and not a moment before?" "what if Burgau or some other place was used to keep her hidden away from the OC?" "what might be the reason for doing so?" "why not just get it over with, since she was never going to return to Rothley?"
If we put our heads together, perhaps we'll come up with the answers.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Praia on 22.01.12 20:13

Kiki I think we may be onto something.
John McCann did not resign from his job, he took leave to run the fund, and returned to AZ, when I am not sure.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by Praia on 22.01.12 20:17

It certainly appears this was all planned out but when?
Was it a long term thing planned from the UK before they travelled?
There are questions over the Donegal trip.

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Re: The hidden basement at Casa Liliana.

Post by kikoraton on 22.01.12 20:47

According to my theory, it must have been planned well before, in order to have Robert Naylor and Madalene's father lined up.
Donegal - the last family get-together?
PdL - the denouement, with all their helpful friends around them whilst the two named above passed under the radar.
But now I think of Burgau, wouldn't Maddie's DNA have been all over it?

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