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A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by Advocatus on Thu 19 Jan 2012 - 23:14

@sijm wrote:Thanks for that info on that report that Madeleine still dressed in her pyjamas was transported via a taxi with Murat and two other males also a thin blonde female.

It would have been interesting if the police had done a photograph ID on the people seen with him that night see if they matched anyone linked to Murat, for as we know, time factors are not to be relied on.

There was thin blonde who resembled the female in the Polish couple (apparently those who had been taking photographs) in Ralph Eveleight's B/B Villa Salsalitio, they were enjoying a drink at the bar with Ralph and Sally, they were in an advert for the Villa in 2007.

If Madeleine's remains are ever found I suspect the pyjamas will be one of the things that could be analysed to fit the discription of the clothes she was wearing at the time of her disappearance.

I still cannot understand why the PJ never took the trainer footwear belonging to the McCann's for an in-depth DNA examination, if there was blood on the floor in appartment 5A then it would have been possible that it had been in the sole of the shoes and Madeleine's shoes, also soil identification could have been match to the area's where the McCanns had been, a must for further evidence.

On that book A estrela de Madeleine and the contents therein, I found it quite worrying when reference is made to the dogs and Dannie Krugel's evidence that demolished the abduction theory, the book adds as follows

"On last day July, the intuition of the investigation and the result from Krugel find two powerful allies that confirm the scenario, the death of Madeleine McCann on the evening 3rd of May.

Only problem is the tree last witnesses, dogs and Dannie Krugel cannot tesify in court in Portugal. If these methods are valid in other developed countries, why can't they be admissable in Portugal? Francisco questions, in chap 7.

One thing I picked up on from another case in Italy was, DNA such as dried saliva, dried blood cannot be tranferred, therefore cannot contaminate other objects.


Great info, thanks.

Goncalo is battling an octopus with a Cerberus on each tentacle...

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by jd on Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 0:27

I really believe Murat was made the scape goat. Ok, he may not be totally honest but his dishonesty would be to do with business & nothing truly sinister, and I don't believe he would do anything that he was accused of. I still need to find out that the Campbell that booked in on May 2nd was Lori Campbell or not

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by Guest on Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 8:54

@Advocatus wrote:Lastly, we still have all the dog dna evidence in 5a and the scenic, a cadaver was in 5a, surely that has been proven by now?

Either it was a dead pig, or a human cadaver.

Martin Grime can assure you it was not pig.



Martin Grime U.K.A.C.P.O.

Accredited Police Dog Training Instructor.

Subject Matter Expert registered with the N.C.P.E.

Specialist Homicide Canine Search Advisor.

Special Advisor to The U.S. Department of Justice, with the FBI.

Dogs may only be deployed upon the request of a Senior Investigating Officer (S.I.O.) following a consultation with the appropriate S.M.E.'s and advisors.

They are independently tested and licensed annually, normally at six monthly intervals as a 'rolling' programme to ensure best practice is maintained.

Eddie - The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain.

Keela - The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate human blood to such small proportions that it is unlikely to be recovered by the forensic science procedures in place at this time due to its size or placement.

The initial training of Eddie is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K., is not acceptable at this point in time. The following notes of guidance should be considered when assessing indications:

In six years of operational deployment in over 200 cases, the dog has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs. The dog has never alerted to 'road kill'. Alerts given by the dog where no obvious human remains are found are supported by forensic evidence anecdotal witness accounts.

Pavlov's theory is used in the case of the E.V.R.D., system of alert. He has been 'conditioned' to give a verbal alert when coming into contact with 'dead body scent'. The presence of tangible material is not required to produce the response. Although the dog is 'trained' using reward based methods the behaviour, the shaping and enforcement regime ensures that the dog does not produce a false alert.

Pseudo scent is a chemically produced product that its manufacturers claim to resemble 'dead body scent'. Although some trainers have had limited success, when tested on my dogs, they showed no interest.

Eddie will locate cadaver, whether in the whole or parts thereof.

Whether deposited surface or sub-surface to a depth of approximately 3-4 feet shortly after death to the advanced stages of deposition and putrefaction through to skeletal.

If the remains have been incinerated, he will still locate them even if large quantities of accelerant have been involved.

The dog will locate cadaver in water, either from the bank side or when deployed in a boat, where a large area may be covered using a gridding system.

The dog has also been trained to identify 'dead body' scent contamination where there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles.


If there is no retrievable evidence for court purposes, it may well assist intelligence gathering in a Major Crime.

The dog will alert to the presence of 'dead body' scent ,whether it is at source or some distance away from a deposition site.


Keela will accurately locate human blood, on items that have been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several washing machine cycles.

The dog will locate contaminated weapons, screen motor vehicles and items of clothing, also crime scenes for minute human blood deposits.

In training she has accurately located minute samples of blood on property up to thirty-six years old.

In order for the dog to locate the source of the blood, it must have 'dried' in situ. Any 'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities. Blood that is subjected to dilution by precipitation or other substantial water source prior to drying will soak into the ground or other absorbent material. This may dilute the scent to an unacceptable level for accurate location.


It is possible however that the EVRD will locate the scent source as it would for 'dead body' scent. Forensic testing may not produce evidence but any alert may provide intelligence to support other factors in the investigation of a crime.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm#mg2473

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by jd on Fri 20 Jan 2012 - 10:40

Dogs do not lie gerry

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by kimHager on Fri 7 Feb 2014 - 23:38

makes me wonder about the pillow case TM's gave as DNA evidence for madeline...could it have came from Amilie..??? was it ever tested against her (amilie's) dna? If not then GM could have easily slipped that in as maddy's with no ine the wiser and again another red herring...does anyone happen to know if that is possible?

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by Guest on Sat 8 Feb 2014 - 1:36

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

The forensic reports state that the sample came from a female child of the McCanns, but not Amelie.

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by Harriet94 on Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 20:23

I have just read through this thread and the possibility of Madeleine having been conceived via egg donation has not been mentioned. We know Madeleine was conceived through IVF. Egg donators are in very short supply in the UK and it was a practice in the UK a few years ago, for infertile couples  who could not afford  IVF treatment to be offered it for free, if the woman was willing to donate her surplus eggs to other childless couples. This is probably not relevant in any way but I am surprised it has not been mentioned especially as a sample of Madeleines DNA seems to have been difficult to obtain ( Rothley Pillowcase etc)

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by Guest on Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 20:33

Do we have to hammer this in? Sorry, for getting slightly offensive violin 
The forensic reports were quite clear, in the sense that the DNA extracted from the Rothley pillow were from a natural female child of both McCanns and NOT Amelie's.

Now, if we would want to doubt official forensic conclusions, we're entering in a completely different area ...  whacky 

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by bodiddly on Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 20:37

There is little similarity from a donated egg in DNA to the mother of the recipitent.
Also if MM was an egg donor child then the likelihood would be so were the twins.
Your need for an egg donor won't just disappear. I have heard of women becoming naturally pregnant with their own eggs after a donated cycle however the chances of receiving a donated egg for a successful round of IVF and then deciding to just have another go with your own eggs (that had already been deemed of little likelihood for success) seems unlikely.

That said the round in Amsterdam was free so they could have thought ok lets just go for it with my eggs again.

There is also no proof whatsoever that a recipitent of a donor egg would feel any less towards a child that she had grown in her womb, than a child that she had grown in her womb.
The genes may decide the shape of an ear for example but the mothers body grew that ear. And so on and so forth.

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by Harriet94 on Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 21:44

I wasn't suggesting in any way that a child conceived through egg donation would be loved any less than a child conceived naturally. I was merely speculating regarding the availabilty of DNA from pillow cases and shared toothbrushes. If it is more than a forum myth, that the FSS was totally incompetent regarding hair analysis, then I don't beleive any of their conclusions regarding any other evidence.

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by Harriet94 on Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 22:33

Bodiddley, What if the egg donor and recipient were related?

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by Harriet94 on Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 22:46

What does DNA to the mother of the recipient mean?

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by sharonl on Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 22:54

I think that this could well be mother and daughter



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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by Harriet94 on Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 23:03

Imo the DNA in this is crucial and complicated. But it will be solved. The smirk will be wiped off the dupers face. For Madeleines sake.

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by Guest on Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 23:09

@Harriet94 wrote:Imo the DNA in this is crucial and complicated. But it will be solved. The smirk will be wiped off the dupers face. For Madeleines sake.
***
It's crucial, yes, but can you plse explain why it's so complicated?

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by bodiddly on Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 23:49

Forensics would be able to tell if the sample was a biological daughter of GM and KM, which it is my belief they stated.
IMO MM was indeed their natural daughter.

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by Harriet94 on Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 23:54

Complicated, because there isn't DNA and bodily fluids all over the place where there should be DNA and bodily fluids all over the place IMO. One week in an aparment and not one snotty nose or leaky nappy between 3 under fives?

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 23:59

@Harriet94 wrote:Complicated, because there isn't DNA and bodily fluids all over the place where there should be DNA and bodily fluids all over the place IMO. One week in an aparment and not one snotty nose or leaky nappy between 3 under fives?

No, not really, that's a different issue. The sample came from a pillowcase back in Rothley, and contained DNA that was almost certainly from a female child of the McCanns that wasn't Amelie. Madeleine was their natural child, that's all there is to it.

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by Woofer on Wed 19 Mar 2014 - 0:12

When the McCanns had the age progressed picture done, there were photos shown of GM when he was a child and IMO Maddie looked like him.  In some of Maddie`s pics I can see a strong resemblance to Aunty Phil.

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by Guest on Wed 19 Mar 2014 - 0:13

I've decided to not reply to Harriet anymore. She obviously doesn't want to take it in ...

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by Harriet94 on Wed 19 Mar 2014 - 0:28

I always beleived that Madeleine was Kate and Gerry's natural child. I only mentioned egg donation because I had never heard it discussed even though it is considered natural in IVF medicine.

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by j.rob on Fri 21 Mar 2014 - 20:24

OMG - Dunblane massacre - I had NO IDEA how much dirt there is behind that. Shocking.  More corruption from B LIAR's government. Why do we bother to have a police force?

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by XTC on Sun 23 Mar 2014 - 22:56

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
@Harriet94 wrote:Complicated, because there isn't DNA and bodily fluids all over the place where there should be DNA and bodily fluids all over the place IMO. One week in an aparment and not one snotty nose or leaky nappy between 3 under fives?

No, not really, that's a different issue.  The sample came from a pillowcase back in Rothley, and contained DNA that was almost certainly from a female child of the McCanns that wasn't Amelie.  Madeleine was their natural child, that's all there is to it.
Does anyone remember the ' Heel stick ' sample that arrived after the FSS had conducted its tests?

Why did none of the doctors or forensics experts suggest that as a provananced test for Madeliene's total
DNA instead of the snapshotof 19 markers? Surely that would have been much more useful for exclusion of
markers and would lead to a more definitive test. The FSS tests were very non commital I feel.


I read recently that Mr Amaral is interested in the testing of hair but I hear that if you don't have the root bulb
then it only reveals the maternal line whereas the root has nuclear DNA within it.

Perhaps forensic science has moved on apace since then. Got to be worth a try as one question unanswered
or asked is whether Madeleine was in 5a that night to be removed by anybody. I know that some theories
are posited that the young girl was never in 5a at all. The FSS or the Portuguese version mentions nothing
in respect of that question I think. It's only an opinion though. One of many I'm sure.

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by joyce1938 on Mon 24 Mar 2014 - 11:20

Yes I do recall theneedlestick test that is taken from all babies born here in England one from the heel as a rule . I too felt that it wasn't mentioned much ans after the pillowcase was fetched ,I appeared to take on more importence than heel one  .no news on here who supplied it ,or who requested it,just a bit of non entity . that one surely would need to take prevalence over pillowcase one ,unless ofcourse both had same findings and was same ? joyce1938

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Re: A theory, was Madeleine their natural child

Post by magrat70 on Mon 24 Mar 2014 - 15:31

Please I wish people would stop mentioning Holly Greig, her mother is a very disturbed individual and some of her advocates are nuttier than she is. The fact they mention so called children who were adults at the time that where being abused at the same time, apart from breaking the law by naming these individuals if they had been abused. Please get both sides of the story and don't just mention a name like it is a proven fact. Don't believe all police are corrupt or you are heading in a stupid place

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