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What was 5A really used for?

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by monkey mind on 09.05.12 15:59

Yup, could just as easily have been someone leaving rather than entering. As with much in this case we only have the word of G & K as to Maddie's question the next day, and I don't knowabout you but I personalyy prefer to take that with a dumpster of salt. In fact, we don't know there was no adult present whilst a child was crying, don't know that at all. Didn''t K make a flurry of six phone callls just before, between 10 and 10.30? And the crying allegedly started immediately after the last call. Where was she when she made those calls? No comment probably.

As for your other questions, I stand to be corrected here but I think that apparently as with the toothbrush, there was only one hairbrush between the 3 children also. Yawn. And her sandals as I recall were no good either as they were allegedly worn by her baby sister. Yawn. Hopefully someone can confirm this but some where amongst the reams of stuff I'm sure I read that. Which leads us to the question.....

Where were her trainers or shoes? She must have had a pair right, not just 1 pair of sandals for a whole week? Did she go to bed that night with her spare pair of shoes or trainers on? If that was all that was left I would have expected them to be taken by the police but don't recall their mention. And if they are not accounted for and that is the explanation, why did the *abductor* that JT is oh so certain she saw remove them?

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by Hummingbird on 14.06.12 12:35

Sorry to start this one all over again!

I have been interested by a few topics currently going re Sagres, the 3 & 4th May, and the creche records. Now very interested in the Gorrods too. So thought I would go back to the beginning - a very good place to start (according the Julie Andrews LOL)

I was having a really good look at these photos taken of 5A and the contents of the apartment and a couple of things stood out.

It appears that the childrens room was not used as such, all of their clothes were either lying around the living room area, over the back of chairs etc or in the wardrobe of the main bedroom, also I notice the little swimmers nappies on the dressing table and wonder why they wouldn't be in the bathroom or even the childrens room - just seems odd as I know when I go on holiday I put each persons things in their own rooms even when they were tiny!

Second, I thought that GM said he did not have sports bag with him. Well we all know there is one in the picture in the wardrobe that miraculously wooshes but what about the one on the floor of the lounge in the left corner by the standard lamp?

Third, if you look at the picture of the room where the 4 passports are on the dressing table take a look in the draw. There appears to be a wallet and also a car key fob on top of it. Now I thought they got a taxi to the airport so why would he need to take his car key on holiday with him if the car was on the drive/garage back home and I also am under the impression they did not have a car on this holiday either? Can anyone else see it or perhaps tell me it is something else?

link: www.mccannfiles.com/id155.html

or if that doesn't work it is the photos on the mccann files under the heading PJ Files Apt 5A Photos.


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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by david_uk on 14.06.12 13:20

I dont see anything outstandingly odd about the 5A Photos. The only standout thing is:



WHERE IS THAT LARGE BAG?, IT LOOK SLONG ENOUGH TO BE A GOLF BAG

WHERE IS THE PINk BLANKET?.



Answer these and youve solved the case, everthing else is irrelevant

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by Nina on 14.06.12 13:41

@Hummingbird wrote:Sorry to start this one all over again!

I have been interested by a few topics currently going re Sagres, the 3 & 4th May, and the creche records. Now very interested in the Gorrods too. So thought I would go back to the beginning - a very good place to start (according the Julie Andrews LOL)

I was having a really good look at these photos taken of 5A and the contents of the apartment and a couple of things stood out.

It appears that the childrens room was not used as such, all of their clothes were either lying around the living room area, over the back of chairs etc or in the wardrobe of the main bedroom, also I notice the little swimmers nappies on the dressing table and wonder why they wouldn't be in the bathroom or even the childrens room - just seems odd as I know when I go on holiday I put each persons things in their own rooms even when they were tiny!

Second, I thought that GM said he did not have sports bag with him. Well we all know there is one in the picture in the wardrobe that miraculously wooshes but what about the one on the floor of the lounge in the left corner by the standard lamp?

Third, if you look at the picture of the room where the 4 passports are on the dressing table take a look in the draw. There appears to be a wallet and also a car key fob on top of it. Now I thought they got a taxi to the airport so why would he need to take his car key on holiday with him if the car was on the drive/garage back home and I also am under the impression they did not have a car on this holiday either? Can anyone else see it or perhaps tell me it is something else?

link: www.mccannfiles.com/id155.html

or if that doesn't work it is the photos on the mccann files under the heading PJ Files Apt 5A Photos.


It is a good idea to take another look at facts, and these police photographs are fact. On one there is an aztec patterned item, I am wondering if it is a towel and I know there was such a towel found in a disused barn that features in this case. I am presuming it is a towel as it is the wrong size and shape to be a jacket and hardly a blanket so I presume it is a beach towel the Mccanns either brought with them or bought there. Which leads me to ask was it used for a beach visit, but as far as I know there was only one they made for a very few minutes due to inclement weather.
I also notice the photograph of the non existent bag in the wardrobe and under it a jumble of clothes, what again I presume are dirty clothes. Nothing I recognize from the last photograph though, were they in the washer?
Yes Hummingbird it could be a car key fob, but not sure.
Maybe the childrens clothes were in the parent's room as there wardrobes were blocked by the cots as was the chest of drawers.
I never cease to be amazed though at the lack of toys. Especially small children, they like to carry something, usually in each hand.
I was with a two year old yesterday, he clung to an aeroplane in one hand and a dinosaur in the other and juggled to hold both in one hand so he could hold my hand whilst we walked. He wouldn't be parted from either. But in that apartment no toys as far as I can see.

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by russiandoll on 14.06.12 13:57

having difficulty making out the key on the bedside table, what strikes me is the nappy bag.........did the twins sleep in this room? I definitely don't believe that they slept in the front bedroom May 3rd.
have you seen the chair on the patio, where it is in relation to the wall and those steep steps? Yes I really believe that the parents would leave a door open with access to that dangerous area, just so Maddie could, if she woke and could not shout loud enough for her parents to hear her, climb on that chair to try to see them and go hurtling down those steps.
it is not credible that she was there that evening, 5a just a stage for the play being acted out.[ a shame so many forgot their lines].

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by Nina on 14.06.12 14:14

@russiandoll wrote: having difficulty making out the key on the bedside table, what strikes me is the nappy bag.........did the twins sleep in this room? I definitely don't believe that they slept in the front bedroom May 3rd.
have you seen the chair on the patio, where it is in relation to the wall and those steep steps? Yes I really believe that the parents would leave a door open with access to that dangerous area, just so Maddie could, if she woke and could not shout loud enough for her parents to hear her, climb on that chair to try to see them and go hurtling down those steps.
it is not credible that she was there that evening, 5a just a stage for the play being acted out.[ a shame so many forgot their lines].

Hi russiandoll, the ? key? is in the open drawer, it is a black square with a white button on it.
Re the terrace area. Imo a very dangerous area unless 100% supervision. There are two areas just crying out to a small child to climb onto imo, where the wall lowers to stepping onto height and a low fence to aid the climb up. Not at all child friendly if the parents are not prepared to be observant.

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by Hummingbird on 14.06.12 14:15

@russiandoll wrote: having difficulty making out the key on the bedside table, what strikes me is the nappy bag.........did the twins sleep in this room? I definitely don't believe that they slept in the front bedroom May 3rd.
have you seen the chair on the patio, where it is in relation to the wall and those steep steps? Yes I really believe that the parents would leave a door open with access to that dangerous area, just so Maddie could, if she woke and could not shout loud enough for her parents to hear her, climb on that chair to try to see them and go hurtling down those steps.
it is not credible that she was there that evening, 5a just a stage for the play being acted out.[ a shame so many forgot their lines].

Yep as I said I am sure they slept somewhere else than where they say! The key is in the drawer not on the bedside table. It is in the picture of the chest of drawers with the 4 passports on the top and a pair of white tennis socks and plasters the drawer is open and inside there is what looks like sheets (stripy) and a soap bag and then there appears to be a wallet and a key fob on top.

Yes I totally agree that chair and table would have been moved/folded away what is the point of a stair gate and then you leave climbing things like these, if GM can make a point of telling that the kids were climbing all over the sofa he had to move it against the wall it beggars belief that they would leave the doors open when the patio stuff was there and the stairs were there stair gate or not - children sleepwalk!!!

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by Hummingbird on 14.06.12 15:20

Just thought the 'wallet' you can see could be a key wallet holder and it could be their house keys - obviously they had to take them!

The key fob is another matter though. It is identical to my car key fob.

It is the type where the key folds inside the fob, it has the manufacturers logo on it and it has the squared of silver top to attach to a key ring, now of course he could have taken his car key on holiday with him but I fail to see why if the car was not a t the airport because they got a taxi!

I have googled the car that the Gorrods hired and it was apparently an Opel Corsa - the Opel is the same manufacturer as Vauxhall and I own a vauxhall corsa and the key fob as I say is identical!!

I could be wrong about this so if someone has a really good clear way of enlarging this it would be great to see what it really is if it isn't actually a car key!

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by marconi on 08.01.14 15:08

I don't believe that the PJ published everything about that night. There are things that the police keep to themselves  till  a case is solved, in order to protect the investigation.
When Amaral heard that the Yard would take part in the case, he not only commented saying "this is a shot in the foot"  but he also said "there are things in the files that will not please the McCanns".

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by flamingboy on 08.01.14 23:03

@Hummingbird wrote:Hello everyone! Firstly sorry to bring this topic up again!  Second, I am very new to this site and very nervous so bear with me please.  I have followed this case from day one and have always had grave doubts about the abduction theory.  Anyway having spent hours reading this particular thread I am astounded by what I have seen, new information I have not seen anywhere before and it has always been my belief that this apartment was not used as a lovely holiday home!!  The one thing that I have always wanted to question is this (& I apologise if this has been done before) Mrs Fenn states that the crying stopped when the parents came home and she knew they had come home because she heard the patio doors open and close.  How does she know 'someone' walked in to the apartment and NOT out of it!  Just because the patio doors were opened and closed doesn't mean someone entered it!  It conjures up some pretty horrific thoughts but I have to ask as it has been playing on my mind for so long.  I am of the belief that all of the children were never, not even once left alone and that each night one of the adults would take their turn at staying with them all in one room.  Trouble is why was one child apparently alone and crying in 5A on the Tuesday night?
As for the so called only one toothbrush between 3 children tale I do not believe it for one minute.  Those children were apparently bathed every night and in bed by 7.30 yet they only had one toothbrush between them?  Only one toothbrush in apartment 5A me thinks.
Finally, I remember reading that KM used to brush Madeleine's hair at bed time so where was the hairbrush when her DNA was required?
Again I am sorry if this is stuff that has been gone over many times before, as I say I am new here and am just trying to get answers to the few things that I cannot find answers too.
I've chosen this post purely at random from this thread and also because it had some length to it too. Pardon me, but this thread, that I'm still trying to get my head around, just seems all over the shop. It really is a can of worms.

Forgive my ignorance but what exactly was the 5A apartment used for then? That doesn't seem to be coming out ( unless I've missed it somewhere )

Clearly I'm going to have to read and re-read this thread again.

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by Daisy on 08.01.14 23:39

@flamingboy wrote:I've chosen this post purely at random from this thread and also because it had some length to it too. Pardon me, but this thread, that I'm still trying to get my head around, just seems all over the shop. It really is a can of worms.

Forgive my ignorance but what exactly was the 5A apartment used for then? That doesn't seem to be coming out ( unless I've missed it somewhere )

Clearly I'm going to have to read and re-read this thread again.
Welcome Flamingboy. It's a can of worms alright.  I don't believe we ever did get round to discussing 'what was 5A really used for'. Sorry I can't help more but if you've already read the thread you'll see why I'm reluctant to get involved again. Besides, I'm a reformed character nowadays and don't take things half as seriously.  winkwink

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by flamingboy on 09.01.14 0:37

@Daisy wrote:
@flamingboy wrote:I've chosen this post purely at random from this thread and also because it had some length to it too. Pardon me, but this thread, that I'm still trying to get my head around, just seems all over the shop. It really is a can of worms.

Forgive my ignorance but what exactly was the 5A apartment used for then? That doesn't seem to be coming out ( unless I've missed it somewhere )

Clearly I'm going to have to read and re-read this thread again.
Welcome Flamingboy. It's a can of worms alright.  I don't believe we ever did get round to discussing 'what was 5A really used for'. Sorry I can't help more but if you've already read the thread you'll see why I'm reluctant to get involved again. Besides, I'm a reformed character nowadays and don't take things half as seriously.  winkwink

Hi Daisy, thanks for the warm welcome. You know, I wouldn't be so hard on yourself. At the end of the day we're all human aren't we :-)  Furthermore, a man ( or woman for that matter ) who can't make a mistake, can't do anything!

I'm just staggered, really I am. Judging from the last post, what, June 2012, nobody has come forward with a breakdown of what they feel to be a close fit in terms of answering the question to the thread. I simply balance that comment against people's varied opinions, that are in circulation, as to what unfolded or happened to Madeleine during her stay.

What is clear is that there are holes just about everywhere with this case. Serious questions have not only been deliberately avoided and yet remain unanswered. Personally, Joana Morais' opinionated breakdown is the closest view that I'd go with at this time.

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by Guest on 09.01.14 10:05

@Daisy wrote:
@flamingboy wrote:I've chosen this post purely at random from this thread and also because it had some length to it too. Pardon me, but this thread, that I'm still trying to get my head around, just seems all over the shop. It really is a can of worms.

Forgive my ignorance but what exactly was the 5A apartment used for then? That doesn't seem to be coming out ( unless I've missed it somewhere )

Clearly I'm going to have to read and re-read this thread again.
Welcome Flamingboy. It's a can of worms alright.  I don't believe we ever did get round to discussing 'what was 5A really used for'. Sorry I can't help more but if you've already read the thread you'll see why I'm reluctant to get involved again. Besides, I'm a reformed character nowadays and don't take things half as seriously.  winkwink

Hi Daisy, I read through the thread again (I read it once before, with similar bewilderment) and have to say I agreed with you!

Personally I think Moyes should have come under more scrutiny.

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by Guest on 09.01.14 10:27

Clay in the Debate section is a thread Apartment 5K - Moyes. 

I too spent time last night reading 5A, crazy in places with that one-eyed poster.

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by Guest on 09.01.14 10:34

Ladyinred wrote:Clay in the Debate section is a thread Apartment 5K - Moyes. 

I too spent time last night reading 5A, crazy in places with that one-eyed poster.

Yes, I've read that one Ladyinred.

I think it was Mrs. Moyes who described Maddie's disappearance as "just an accident", which I found a bit odd.

It was interesting to read the poster who'd had a dream about something being hidden behind a wall - from some of the things I've read about this case I have wondered before if some of the apartments were actually physically interconnected. Talk about paranoid! I need a slap.


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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by Praia on 09.01.14 10:39

Good morning Clay, Daisy and all.  Yes I reread the thread last night and realise how confusing it is. When I joined I was at the end of my tether with the injustices and downright lies and scaremongering towards Portugal. I desperately want justice for Madeleine. Unfortunately Advocatus joined at the same time and Daisy, jd and others saw me as a troll also. I am not and TB and other respected members here know my identity and have spoken to me on the phone. I had always been scared to publicly post and part of me still is, as are most locals who read different Madeleine sites. As I have said elsewhere, on the CMTV topic yesterday, I am in bad health for years but have had ground breaking surgery which I see as my own miracle as I had given up all hope of any sort of normal life. So maybe we will see another much larger miracle in 2014 for Madeleine.

I will post this, then post on 5A.

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by Guest on 09.01.14 10:41

I'm even more bewildered by this case after reading 5A, though I do believe that the Tapas group is the key to resolving what happened to M.

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by Praia on 09.01.14 10:57

Briefly, I see 5A as essential as part of the abduction tale, look at it's location on the corner at a T junction with people up and doing going to Baptista supermarket, the chemist or wherever. Perfect for the McCann's and co. to tell their tale's of all there wierd and wonderful character's hanging aroung waiting on the off chance to abduct a child. 



If you look at the crime picture's of 5A it look's staged, imo. Where are all the kiddy holiday bits and pieces? I have seen many holiday apartments with families staying in them, 3 little one's in 5A allegedly, it seems "off" to me. We can't see into kitchen cupboards but Dr Amaral, IIRC, commented on the lack of milk.
No toothbrushes, the bathroom looks tidy after 5 people bathed or showered.

The DNA question, where was all the DNA and hairs from the children? We assumed they did a very thorough clean up before yelling abduction but there should be something! Read their statements when none of these highly skilled professionals can describe who was where.

It's very possible the McCann's were elsewhere and 5A was used as the perfect apartment to yell abduction.

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by Guest on 09.01.14 11:15

@Praia wrote:

It's very possible the McCann's where elsewhere and 5A was used as the perfect apartment to yell abdution.

I agree Praia, for some reason it was very important that Maddie was "abducted" and great lengths were gone to to create the circumstances for just such an occurrence. I wish I knew why. Lately I am leaning towards the whole thing being some kind of media construct. Some of the characters involved seem to be just that - characters, existing in a vacuum. Fortunately I have had some downtime these last couple of months and have done the in-depth reading about this case that I have long promised myself; if anything I am even more confused as a result.

I am sad that, apart from "Maddie" (whoever she was), it is Portugal and her reputation that have suffered most. As I have stated before, my experiences of the Portuguese people during many visits have been positive without exception. It is a crying shame that such a wonderful, fascinating and proud country was selected as the setting for this fiasco.

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by Guest on 09.01.14 11:21

Yes, Clay, I too feel sad about the whole sorry saga.  A missing, presumed dead, child, Madeleine; Amaral's plight.  Actually, I feel angry and frustrated.  My admiration goes to the long-time posters, TB and admin on this site.

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by Guest on 09.01.14 11:54

@Praia wrote:Ross the EN125 from Lagos to Quarteira takes 60/70 minutes. On a Sunday it is much quieter so the lower no.
It would be unusual to travel from Quarteira to Luz and not take the motorway in 2007.
Tolls on A22 have just been introduced here. There is war over it and the 125 is busy once again.
There was a saying about having to try and stay alive on the 125, it was a notorious blackspot in the whole of the EU before the A22 was finished.

Hope you are still reading Praia. If you have seen some of my other posts you will know I have questioned the apparent appeal of PdL to expats. I don't wish to offend you or Beijos but do you yourself not find it odd that it was chosen to be such an expat colony when, as you point out, before the motorway the occasional visitor would really be seeking to travel as short a distance on the 125 as possible? When I first visited it was populated by horses and carts, those three wheeled scooter van things, cars overtaking buses overtaking lorries, I'm sure you recognise the picture...

In short do you think it's possible that PdL was selected as an out of the way spot for dodgy goings on among wealthy Brits?

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by Praia on 09.01.14 12:04

Hi, no 1, I do not live in Luz, nor would I, can't stand the place, I am in Lagos!

It is what we call "Little Britain in the sun", why live in Portugal then hang onto all things British???? Not for me.

In short, yes.

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Re: What was 5A really used for?

Post by Daisy on 09.01.14 19:04

@flamingboy wrote:
@Daisy wrote:
@flamingboy wrote:I've chosen this post purely at random from this thread and also because it had some length to it too. Pardon me, but this thread, that I'm still trying to get my head around, just seems all over the shop. It really is a can of worms.

Forgive my ignorance but what exactly was the 5A apartment used for then? That doesn't seem to be coming out ( unless I've missed it somewhere )

Clearly I'm going to have to read and re-read this thread again.
Welcome Flamingboy. It's a can of worms alright.  I don't believe we ever did get round to discussing 'what was 5A really used for'. Sorry I can't help more but if you've already read the thread you'll see why I'm reluctant to get involved again. Besides, I'm a reformed character nowadays and don't take things half as seriously.  winkwink

Hi Daisy, thanks for the warm welcome. You know, I wouldn't be so hard on yourself. At the end of the day we're all human aren't we :-)  Furthermore, a man ( or woman for that matter ) who can't make a mistake, can't do anything!

I'm just staggered, really I am. Judging from the last post, what, June 2012, nobody has come forward with a breakdown of what they feel to be a close fit in terms of answering the question to the thread. I simply balance that comment against people's varied opinions, that are in circulation, as to what unfolded or happened to Madeleine during her stay.

What is clear is that there are holes just about everywhere with this case. Serious questions have not only been deliberately avoided and yet remain unanswered. Personally, Joana Morais' opinionated breakdown is the closest view that I'd go with at this time.
Hold on Flamingboy, who said anything about making a mistake? Not me, I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken.  big grin

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