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Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

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Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by HiDeHo on 04.01.12 12:12

Many members believe that something may have happened to Madeleine earlier in the week with the culmination of the 'abduction' on Thursday.

For 4 years I have been compiling discrepancies and timelines from statements on different topics and felt that it may be of assistance to look at the week's information to see whether the discrepancies started earlier in the week and, if so, WHY?

Maybe it's possible to compare each day to get an indication of whether something happened to Madeleine earlier in the week.

Keep in mind, also, that she may not have died immediately. Something may have happened, they tried to 'save' her (they were doctors) but ultimately she died and this may have been too late to call the authorities.

I will be editing this post as it is very involved and confusing, and likely the text will be temporarily difficult to read, but I feel there is so much information that takes forever to find when researching a subject, that having it all together for reference on the topic of "Could Something have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the week?" which, in my opinion, is one of the most important topics in this case.


She was seen on Sunday afternoon by the cleaners daughter and discrepancies appear to start on Tuesday....Could something have happened between that time?

If Madeleine didn't die until Thursday evening, then one has to wonder why there appeared to be a coverup during the week!

The Last Pictures of Madeleine...

Saturday after arriving?...........Sunday at the pool?...........Sun/Mon with adults (as per Fiona)?

Compare the description of Madeleine's personality as described by Ocean Club employees and that of friends and family...it seems that OC employees knew a 'different' type of child. Jane Tanner describes her daughter Ella as very shy.

http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/Discrepancies-by-Topic/Madeleine-s-Personality-1-781015.html







KATE May 4th
(Sunday) At 12.30pm, they collected their children and had lunch in their apartment, as it had a kitchen. After lunch, at around 1.30pm, the children spent time near the club's swimming pool, supervised by the parents, for about 45 minutes, where they played, applied sun cream etc





FP about tennis early in the week (Sunday/Monday?)

“E**a and Madeleine were, you know, were joining in

Could the tennis pic of Madeleine have been taken when she was with the adults and not playing as she had sandals on and not sneakers and wearing a hat? Sunday? Monday?






RELATIONSHIPS

KM & FP good friends worked together


DP knew Kate and Gerry through Fiona working with Kate

DP/FP & JT/ROB - best friends saw each other every week (ROB and DP were in same year which is how DP met Jane -Been on holiday together - )

DW had met G&K a few times and at Fionas wedding[/size]

FP
“I’m an Anaesthetist, so I, it combines a lot of different skills, we work in obstetrics, on labour ward doing epidurals, doing caesarean sections for women and we work on intensive care unit, in theatres, cover any need for, resuscitation. So, yeah, it’s quite a stressful job and a busy job, I enjoy it”.

JT/RMO Been on holiday with DP/FP and MO/RMO

JT knew K&G from occasional meetings K&G approx 3 times a year...was not impressed with GM as he was more a man's man but became friendly with Kate because of tennis together on holiday

ROB was MO's best man

]MO knew Gerry when working together but didnt socialise then met GM &KM again at FP & DP's wedding where they shared an apartment with other couples

FP
Matt and Rachael didn’t know maybe Kate and Gerry quite so well, but, erm, you know, Russ and Jane we’ve known for donkeys years and, you know, Russ used to share a house when Dave and him were Junior Doctors and I lived there as well with another chap




GENERAL

Fiona usually spent afternoons in apartment while children slept for couple hours til 3.30
Fiona Cant remember if they went to beach and had tea at Paraiso on Monday or tuesday

Fiona Went running on beach with David most evenings but once before Thursday with Matt

Fiona - we didn’t see a lot of Kate and Gerry, I know they, you know, apart from the evenings, they were having a great time with the tennis lessons

Rachael usually sat by pool while daughter was in creche

Most days they ate lunch at FP/DP's as it was the bigger apartment and Dianne made sandwiches
McCanns only went once (Sunday according to cleaner)




SATURDAY

Playground pics appear to have been taken on Saturday according to the children's clothes (Madeleine with different trousers)







DP - 1485 "Okay, okay. So moving on then, we, you arrive at your apartment.”
Reply "Mm.”
1485 "You say that you’ve, that the bus has took you round, you’ve gone to yours, Gerry and Kate have gone to theirs, Matt and Rachael and Russell were already there.”
Reply "Yes.”
1485 "What sort of time in the day was this?”
Reply "Crikey, err it was, I’d have said mid afternoon, yeah perhaps around three, four o’ clock err in the afternoon, still, you know light, still some time in the day left yeah to enjoy it, and again that was one of the benefits of that flight, it was a nice time that we weren’t arriving there at, at night, you know the kids would go straight to bed so you just had a bit of day light, you know just to see what the place was like and err you know just to make the most of that bit of day that you had left.”

The Paynes and McCanns travelled together and arrived an hour or so after ROB/JT and MO/RMO

Charlotte Pennington and Jez Wilkins were on the same flight as ROB and MO and JW recognised JT and RMO at tennis during the week

MW had meeting to show everyone the programs available

Tennis Lessons had a charge

Windsurfing/Sailing n/c

JT (9.15am)- FP - RMO KM (9.15am) GM (10.15am) signed for tennis lessons

DW signed up for tennis lessons 9-10 (held between 9.15 and 10.15 to allow for parents to delier children to childcare)

They all went to Millenium for supper with children

Returned to individual apartments

Sat. 28.04.2007 Arrival O.C. 15:00
Apartment 5A
Pool
Swim with M
Meeting with M.W. officials and have a drink
Rest. Millennium with kids (only night) (Note: 'Rest.' = Restaurant)
Return walk - difficult for kids
Bed Bath →
Bed early






SUNDAY



SUNDAY APRIL 29
Madeleine McCann AM
Amelie & Sean
9.45
?
KM
?
12.15
?
GM
?
Madeleine McCann PM
Amelie & Sean
Ella O'Brien
2.45
2.25
2.45?
GM
KM
-
5.30
5.30
3.00(30)
GM
GM
ROB?

K&G had tennis lessons - JEZ played with Gerry but although Kate was there she didn't play...probably because she played the hour earlier.

Everyone went to breakfast

At about 1.15pm Cleaner - María Serafim da Silva Espada saw family leave the apartment, Madeleine with shoes that lit up and the twins, all holding bread and Kate with a plate and Gerry locking up

Louisa saw tall man with Madeleine who asked to book tapas for week...Could this have been ROB with E**A as it had to be booked in morning and Madeleine was in the creche. The similarity of Madeleine and E**a is amazing..very easy for each being mistaken for other (except hair colour)


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/GREYSCALE_SNAPS.htm





[size=9]Sunday night MO was sick and did not go


ROB claims to have used MO key to check his children

Gerry May 16th admits to using blinds and he broke them on Sunday and had them repaired on Monday (documents show it was Tuesday)





Sun 29.04.2007
Breakfast Millennium Restaurant
? pruning of hedge
Morning Kids Club
10:00 morning talking over coffee, I went along to tennis
Lunch sandwiches →
→ F balcony and Dave
Kids Club afternoon
Seated in deck-chairs F A A
K and G run - Beach 16:00
High tea
Recreational area
Rest.: No Matt





MONDAY

No tennis records (Poss womens night)

BREAKFAST - no Dianne or McCanns


MONDAY April 30th
Ella O'Brien AM
Madeleine McCann
Amelie & Sean
Lily
9.15
9.30
9.20
9.?
ROB
GM
?
DP
12.35
12.10
12.15
12.45
??
GM
GM
DP
Madeleine McCann PM
Amelie & Sean
Ella O'Brien
Lily xxxx

3.15
3.25
4.00
xxxx
KM
?
ROB
xxxx
3.30
? time
XXXX
xxxx
KM
? sig
XXX
xxxx

RMO
2007-05-15

[size=12]On Monday they were told that there was no room for all of them in the restaurant, but they obtained a special favour from a waiter and all dined together. In order to obtain this favour they said that the children were asleep and that they could not move anywhere else. For this reason, from this day onwards they would reserve a space in the restaurant (for the adults) for the following day

Fiona and David spent morning on beach, after dropping children off, sailing with another chap. It was cold. They wore short wetsuits and returned when it was time to pick up the children.

[size=9]We know that the creche records show Kate dropping Madeleine off at 3.15pm then drops the twins off at 3.25pm and picks up Madeleine at 3.30pm. There is no record regarding what time the twins were picked up.


http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Creche-Records-Timeline/Creche-Table-1-762790.html

Monday 30.04.2007
Breakfast apartment? apartment cleaning
Kids clubs:
Tennis 09.15-10.15 K
G 10.15-11.15
*? washing machine / blinds
Lunch - our apartment then → balcony F and Dave
Kids club?? beach
+ / - 16.00 K run 25 min.
16:30 Tennis lessons
High tea
18:30? tennis night for women
Recreational area
Afternoon: K and J Supermarket
Rest. - everyone

http://mccannexposure.wordpress.com/2009/12/04/more-on-the-deleted-call-records-%E2%80%93-where-was-kate-mccann/
On Monday 30th April 2007, neither of the McCann’s telephones activated the Luz transmitters. This looks very odd, especially as they were around the Ocean Club to shuffle the kids to and from the crèches. On this afternoon, Madeleine remained in the crèche for only 15 minutes and was picked up by her mother at 15.30. We do not know what Madeleine did for the rest of the day, but it is possible she was being fractious. Interestingly, a friend of Mrs and Mr McCann supposedly told the “Dispatches” team that made a TV program on the tragedy, that “Madeleine was a screamer”. This could be interpreted in one of two ways, but any use of the past tense in referring to Madeleine would be very significant. It was such a past tense referral, to her supposedly living children, that alerted the FBI to their murder by Susan Smith, their mother

Madeleine was taken to the creche at 3.15..the twins at 3.25pm five minutes after the twins were dropped off Madeleine was taken from creche and the twins were not signed out tht after noon...Ella was signed IN at 4.00pm half an hour after Madeleine was signed out....Odd

Did the children go to high tea?

Info about Monday April 30th:

http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/Monday-April-30th/Info-about-MONDAY-APRIL-30th-1-1047663.html

If something happened to Madeleine Monday then it would account for the discrepancies that started to appear on Tuesday.

There would be shock, grief, the need to clean up and the need for a 'plan'.




TUESDAY

TUESDAY May 1st
Ella O'Brien AM
Madeleine McCann
Amelie & Sean
Lily
9.00
9.30
9.20
9.?
ROB
GM
GM
??
xxxx
12.20
12.20
12.20
xxxx
GM
KM
??
Madeleine McCann PM
Ella O'Brien
Amelie & Sean
Lily xx
2.30
2.30
2.30
xxxx
GM
CAT
KM
xxxx
xxxxx
5.30
5.20
xxxx
xxxxx
ROB
KM
xxxx






http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm

Kate phone activity May 1st:
10.16.42 (After tennis or in apartment while maintenance fixing blinds or by pool with Rachael?)
11.56.06
12.17.21...Just before she picked up Twins from creche & GM picked Madeleine
19.45.03

20.31.31
20.33.32
20.35.58
20.37.24

22.16.15........Just prior to crying heard by Mrs Fenn
22.23.15........Just prior to crying heard by Mrs Fenn
22.23.28........Just prior to crying heard by Mrs Fenn
22.24.22........Just prior to crying heard by Mrs Fenn
22.25.36........Just prior to crying heard by Mrs Fenn
22.27.50........Just prior to crying heard by Mrs Fenn





The maintenance workers were fixing the blinds and showing Kate how to work the washing machine between 10 and 11.

Kate was also 'supposedly' playing tennis 9.15am -10.15am

Rachael claims this for Thursday but Madeleine's group played tennis on Tuesday
Rachael - I saw Kate, I chatted to Kate by the pool, erm in the morning”.
1578 “What time was that”?
Reply “That would have been from sort of, you know half nine, ten o’clock onwards
, we were chatting when Madeleine arrived for the tennis lesson with the rest of the children from her group, erm I think that was probably about ten thirty, erm and Gerry was there then as well, I think he’d been having a lesson on the tennis courts I think, he was having group lessons, so I think he might have been having his lesson sort of up until then, erm so they were both there then and then erm Matt and I had our tennis lesson and then Jane and I,

Tuesday appears to be the last credible sighting of Madeleine (IMO) by Georgina the tennis coach at the same time that Gerry had his tennis lesson with Dan. (where tennis pic was taken?)

Jez joned in tennis doubles with Gerry and two friends after the lesson approx 11.15am - 12.15.am and then Jez, ROB and Gerry walked to the creche to pick Gerry signed out Madeleine but ROB did not sign out E**a
Jez - After the lessons, this time we had a game of doubles together with two friends of his! At this point I established that Jerry and his family had come along with a group of other families, four (4) in totals. The game longed about one hour and a quarter.


Did something 'happen' that afternoon?

After lunch at 1.30 K&G took the children to the beach with the twins in carriage.

on Tuesday there was a slight change given that after lunch, at 13h30, he and KATE decided to take the three children to Paris da Luz, having gone on foot, taking only the twins in baby carriages. They all left by the main door due to the carriages, went around to the right, down the street of the supermarket and went to the beach along a road directly ahead.

Gerry and Madeleine paddled in the water.

They went to an esplanade of a cafe (Paraiso?) where they had 5 ice creams and 2 drinks and watched a guitarist.

the individual had a neglected and careless appearance, unshaven and somewhat shabby [raggedy]. He was Caucasian, 175cm tall, thin, 70 to 75kg in weight, dark, short hair, almost shaven-headed with grey sides, and not wearing glasses. Wearing a light brown-coloured “kispo” [coat?], with a hood at the back, and dark cotton trousers, not noticing the footwear. He said that he never behaved strangely, nor approached or looked at the children in an ostensible [deliberate/menacing] manner

They left the beach area after spending 20 mins there as it became cloudy and cold.


In the afternoon Gerry signed Madeleine in at 2.30 and Cat Nanny signed Ella in at the same time.

ROB
I recall going for a sailing lesson on Tuesday and Jane went to play tennis, we collected the kids as usual around lunchtime, Kate and Gerry had lunch in their apartment as they did on most days. I went out in the afternoon to the beach I was with Matt and as far as I can recall we went out kayaking.


No-one signed Madeleine out and Ella was signed out by ? at 5.30pm

After 3.00pm I can see no statements (so far) describing what any of the tapas 7 did until the evening.

Tuesday was Quiz night, ROB was not there due to one of the children being sick (contradictions on different statements whether E**a or E**e.)

He also states it was the first time they were all together. (both JT and ROB cannot agree on days Monday or Tuesday)

Rachael says she was ill that night (Rog) but also also says not at tapas on Wednesday.

She thinks they went to the flat four times: Gerry twice and she twice. Approx. 9, 9:30, 10, and 10:30PM.

on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, and slep with her and Gerry in their room. She says that before Madeleine appeared in their room, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine went to the room almost at the same time she head the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she or Gerry went to the childrens’ room, however she states that Amelie cried for a short time.

She says that on that night the twins slept in the room where Madeleine slept, each in their own crib.

When asked if Madeleine slept in their room, she says yes, as mentioned, on the Tuesday night.

NOTE: Cleaner saw a crib in the McCann's bedroom on Wednesday morning.





9.00pm approx quiz and once finished Najoua Chekaya ws invited to the table of nine guests

She was at their table for about fifteen to twenty minutes and it was there that she met Mdeleine’s father, who directly invited her to the table, however, she does not know whether Madeleine’s mother was also there

they talked of banalities and she did not notice any aspect or behaviour that was out of the ordinary.
When questioned, she said that during the time that she was there Madeleine’s father did not leave the table, neither did any of the other guests, however, during this time one of the chairs was always empty, that of someone who had had dinner and left, not managing to indicate any identifying element about this person.

When questioned, she said she was at the table from about 21.30 to 21.50

Witness statement: Najoua Chekaya
Date: 20 June 2007
--- In accordance with the statements made by her in this case, on 9 May 2007, she confirms it
having been on the Tuesday, 1 May 2007, that she was invited to the table of the group of which
the McCann couple were part, by Gerry himself.
--- That she recalls there being an
empty place [seat] at the table, not being certain if it had been
Madeleine's mother's place
given that she is not sure if they had met each other there at that time.
--- The photographs of the group of the McCann's friends having been shown to her, the deponent
declares that from those photos seen
she has some reservations about David Payne [in that] while
she thinks he was also there, she had not noted his presence.

--- The question asked she declares not being certain who was missing from the group.






Kates mobile places her in/near 5 A? for 6 calls between 10:16approx and 10:27approx

22.16.15........Just prior to crying heard by Mrs Fenn
22.23.15........Just prior to crying heard by Mrs Fenn
22.23.28........Just prior to crying heard by Mrs Fenn
22.24.22........Just prior to crying heard by Mrs Fenn
22.25.36........Just prior to crying heard by Mrs Fenn
22.27.50........Just prior to crying heard by Mrs Fenn

Kate say ROB was looking after younger daughter and Jane or SOMEONE took him his meal (reason for empty place setting?)

MRS FENN HEARD CRYING between 10:30 and 11:45

Finished dinner around 11 PM, and together with Gerry, left for the apartment

Mrs Fenn did not tell Kate and Gerry about.the crying...yet they claimed Amelie crying later in the evening (midnight) and Madeleine slept in their room. (One cot was seen by the cleaner, the following morning in the parents bedroom)

Kate denied the cot was in the room (WHY?)


Tuesday 01.05.2007 (holiday)
Breakfast apartment
Kids club - mini-tennis ↓
09.15-10.15 K ↓
G 10.15-11.15 ↓
Madeleine and Ella
* Get camera
Lunch → apartment
RAIN
Kids club beach, sunglasses
Ice cream
13:30 → 15:00 ish
Kids club? 15.15
? time not so good
? G tennis lessons - ok
High tea 16:30
? recreational area
Restaurant? object tennis
No Russell, Evie felt ill
(5D) Russ remained in apartment
Food was brought up


http://mccannexposure.wordpress.com/2009/12/04/more-on-the-deleted-call-records-%E2%80%93-where-was-kate-mccann/
On Tuesday 1st May 2007, Gerald McCann’s handset was silent all day. Kate McCann’s mobile first activated the Luz antenna at 10.16, but all details of the day’s calls have been deleted from the handset and there is no nothing in the CD from her mobile provider. Another activation took place at 12.17. The crèche records show that Gerald McCann picked up Madeleine at 12.20 (a bit earlier than usual) but Kate McCann’s call at 12.17 does not appear to have been to him, (because his mobile was not activated at all that day). Kate McCann dealt with her last call before leaving for the Tapas Bar at 20.35.


At around 8.45pm on Tuesday 1st May 2007, Miss Nejoua Chekeya, the Ocean Club’s busty Aerobics Instructor, held a “Quiz Night” and was later invited, allegedly by Gerald McCann, to join his table which she did sometime between 9.30pm and 9.50pm. She did not say how long she had remained with them, but she is not the sort of woman men would wish see to leave too quickly. Miss Chekeya stated that one dinner setting was unused and that she could not remember seeing Kate McCann.

However, both Jane Tanner and Russell O’Brien have stated that he did not go to the Tapas Bar on the “Quiz Night” (ie Tuesday 1st May 2007), but had stayed in their room looking after his sick daughter. Jane Tanner took his dinner to the room; thus explaining the unused plate setting. Russell O’Brien was not asked by either the Policia Judiciaria or Leicestershire Police whether he had heard Madeleine crying!

Kate McCann’s mobile was next activated six times, in rapid fire, between 22.16 and 22.27, after she had returned to Apartment 5A after dinner. The antenna traffic proves that these calls were not made to any of the “Tapas 9”.

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HiDeHo
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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by HiDeHo on 04.01.12 12:13



WEDNESDAY

WEDNESDAY May 2nd
Ella O'Brien AM Madeleine McCann
Amelie & Sean

9.30
9(30)
9.10
ROB
GM
GM
12.30
1230

12 25
ROB
CAT
KM
Ella O'Brien PM
Madeleine McCann
Amelie & Sean
Lily xxxx
2.30
2.45
2.40
xxxx
ROB
KM
KM
xxxx
5.30
5.30
5.20
xxxx
ROB
KHealy
GM
xxxx

KATE:
Dial: 02 May 07.36 Amanda Mobile
Dial: 02 May 07.36 Amanda Mobile (yes a few seconds after)
Rec: 02 May 07.50 Amanda Mobile
Rec: 02 May 08.50 ? ---010
Dial: 02 May 08.53 ? ---010 (yes the same number)

Rec: 02 May 11.22 ?
Rec: 02 May 20.05 ? --624
Rec: 02 May 20,08 ? --624

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm
May 2nd
Gerry had his phone switched off all day until probably 15.50
Vodapone his phone receives the 12 SMS messages stacked up for him on the network.
The last one of those was a "2 hourly" Voicemail reminder of previous new voicemails.
The other 11 are "new voice mail" alerts.
Gerry was left 11 voicemail calls from between 08.07 to 13.59
Some of them only minutes apart e.g. 9.10 - 9.13 - 9.18
Gerry rang his Voicemail using 91121 at 15.50
He listened briefly for 11 seconds and ended the call
He switched his phone off
He still had Voicemail he hadn't listened to
He was sent more "2 hourly" reminders
He switched his phone on again at 20.14 and rang his voicemail on 91121
Again it was a short duration, but no more reminders were sent him after this
He must have deleted them

So I believe that Gerry was got 11 voicemail messages on the morning of 2nd May.

He said he got calls from work, but I don't think he ever said these were calls from work.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=23910&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=480

CLEANER WEDNESDAY MORNING:
Maria Julia S. da Silva.

With respect to her activities performed directly in the apartment, she declares that the last time she entered the apartment was on the Wednesday prior to the events, specifically on the 2nd of May, when she cleaned the apartment. When questioned, she declares that as opposed to what is established, on Thursday the 3rd and due to other chores, she did not have time to collect the garbage bags.

She remembers that when she entered Apartment A on the Wednesday, the parents were inside. After being duly authorized, she entered and carried out her work, because they were already on their way out. While she was in the apartment, there were no children there, and she supposed that they were in the creche. While performing her work, she remembers having noticed that the couple was sleeping in the room located opposite the entrance, where she confirmed the presence of a child’s bed (crib). The room gives onto an outdoor garden by means of a terrace, as it is on the ground floor,. In the room next to the entrance to the apartment there was a bed placed next to the wall (where she supposed the missing child slept), and also the second child’s bed (crib). All these beds were untidy at the time, meaning that they had been used. She also declares that in the room next to the entrance was another bed that had not been used.


This seems to be the day that everyone is trying to avoid...

MO running with Kate - Monday or Tuesday

ROB not at Tapas Bar because sick child - Monday or Tuesday

JT cannot remember ROB at Tapas - Monday or Tuesday

Fiona and others (she can't remember if K&G also) at beach in the evening - Monday or Tuesday

Rachael sick Tuesday or Wednesday

Kayaks Monday or Tuesday

Maddie's crying incident, Tuesday or Wednesday

Gerry clams: Monday or Tuesday MADELEINE had slept for some time in his bedroom, with KATE, as she had told him that one or both twins were crying, making much noise.

(Keep in mind this is from his statement from May 10th...Mrs Fenn did not tell them about the crying....so they were maybe pre-empting any possible witness statements, maybe attempting to confuse which day, not realising Mrs Fenns statement.)

August 10 2007 statement
She states that she never told the McCs that their daughter had cried on Tuesday, because she thought that would hurt them even more.

http://mccannfiles.com/id174.html:
Use of Telephone is a must to remove the body when the “carrier”(confirming GA ‘s suspicion on outside help) seems to be not from Tapas9.
IF maddy died on 1st may.
May 1st: "Kate McCann's mobile was next activated six times, in rapid fire, between 22.16 and 22.27, after she had returned to Apartment 5A after dinner. The antenna traffic proves that these calls were not made to any of the "Tapas 9".
Incomplete info. Who were the calls made to? Another/"friend" (DP? with another mobile no./sim) to have a “talk” to even out GM's extra attention to Miss Chekaya? Is it true that chekaya could not identify/remember DP at table on Tues. night? Was kate at Tapas when calls came?-unlikely.
"Mrs Fenn…that Madeleine had cried for her father between 22.30 and 23.45. The evidence shows that Kate McCann was in Apartment 5A 14 minutes before Madeleine started crying."
It is assumed that kate’s mobile was in apartment-can be false. Possible kate left 5A after using the phone for her “talk”.
If Maddy suddenly stopped crying, that means:
1. that either GM came at 23.45 (where was kate?) OR….looks unlikely.
2. kate and GM returned together (means that kate carried her mobile to the "Tapas" on 1st may- she phones after leaving tapas in an angry mood and returns-unlikely) OR kate returned to Tapas after entering 5A, phoning from 5A, and finding “talk” not possible (likely). maddy stopped crying, parents overdosed on calpol, maddie died on bed at 5-7am on 2nd may. No time for cadaver smell to develop on bed.
3. maddy stopped crying on her own (tired-unlikely as Mrs.Fenn heard a door) OR
4. kate came in (or was inside 5A-unlikely) at the 5A at 23.45 after her “talk”, lost it and banged Maddy's head , injuring her (blood),overdosed calpol Or kate bangs her head, maddy slumps on floor, kate does not care and goes off to sleep on the bed in the children’s room (cruel, unbelievable, highly unlikely).
If GM (drunk) returns later from Tapas ,he goes off to sleep w/o checking on kate (and children)….usual scenario in their married life when kate ,when upset, does not sleep in their bed.

Or maybe maddy falls down (dizzy-calpol) from sofa (blood) while sleepwalking in the night and dies.
"On Wednesday 2nd May 2007, Kate McCann called her friend "Amanda" at 7.36.41 and again at 7.36.45. This was around two hours earlier than any of mobile activations on any other morning."
If maddy was found dead/hardly breathing on 2nd morning by kate, kate immed. calls "amanda" (something wrong with maddy’s breathing) before alerting GM.

“At 8.07 Gerald McCann received a call from the SMS message centre (447818520047), but does not appear to have responded. At 8.50 Kate McCann received a call from a UK mobile xxxxx27010 and returned it at 8.53, before going to play tennis. Gerald McCann received a series of calls from his SMS message centre between 9.10 and 10.47, again without response.”
Death confirmed by 9-10 if not earlier. Operation coverup planning started. Somedy in UK most likely knows about Maddy’s death by now (10.47). I think GM makes the call on kate’s mobile at 8.53 (careful not to use his).

“Gerald received five further calls from the SMS message centre and at 15.50 called 91121, probably to collect his messages. He received further calls from the centre at 17.49 and 19.49. The records provided by Vodafone show these calls but that they originate from a different mobile number (0xxxx014310)”.
Somebody finalises how to get rid of body from 5A (cupboard).
“At 20.08 Kate McCann received two calls from a UK mobile xxxx7624 and six minutes late Gerald McCann called 91121: again to collect messages before he left for the Tapas Bar.”
Body to be taken that night (best time-dead of night) or 3rd morning.



about eleven I think when maybe they might have gone back to our rooms, back to the apartments”.


Wednesday - 02.05.2007
Breakfast apartment? apartment cleaning
RAIN
Kids club
Tennis → postponed wet courts
→ Millennium K and G - meet F, D and D
+ / - 11.30 Kate run with Matt
+ / - 40 min.
Get kids
Lunch - apartment, recreational area
Kids club
G Tennis 14.30-15.30
K 15.30-16.30 tennis? tennis lesson
? G Tennis lessons 16:30
Launching speed
? object tennis

High tea → recreational area

Rest. - No Rachael (5B)
Apartment next door
- Slightly later bedtime? 24.00
→ to bar after dinner

Wednesday Timeline & Timetable from all statements :

http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/Wednesday-May-2nd/Wednesday-Timeline-Timetable-from-All-Statements-1-926018.html

Did Kate sleep in her bed Wednesday night, even for a few minutes, before going into Madeleine's bedroom?

The bed does not look like two people had used the bed. The covers on one side do not appear touched.

The arrangement of pillows looks like a child may have slept next to an adult.

The beds together would have made room for the cot seen by the cleaner on Wednesday morning.

On Thursday morning, Madeleine asked why Kate had not gone to her bedroom when the twins (or Sean and Madeleine) had been crying. (Possibly before they arrived home)

Kate said she heard nothing which is the reason she did not go into the children's bedroom indicating that she was sleeping in the her own bedroom.

Kate and Gerry both claim that Kate slept in Madeleine's room that night.

Where was Kate sleeping on Wednesday night?

Quote:
Kate
On that night they also checked on the children every half hour; however she thinks that 45 minutes had gone by from the time of the last check to when they arrived, as exceptionally they went to the Tapas’ bar. On this day she thinks that Gerry arrived at the apartment around 23:50 and she arrived 5 minutes later. She went to sleep in Madeleine’s room 15/20 minutes later. Before this she spent a few minutes in her bed next to Gerry.



Quote:
Kate
The witness and her husband slept in one bedroom and the three children in the other. The twins slept in cots, Madeleine in a normal bed, the other bed remained empty.

Between the day of the arrival, April 28th, and the time at which the disappearance was discovered, the witness says that she noticed nothing unusual. She reports only one episode where, on the morning of Thursday the 3rd, Madeleine asked the witness why she had not come to look in the bedroom when the twins were crying. The witness states that she had heard nothing and had therefore not gone into the bedroom, nevertheless she found her daughter’s comment strange because it was the first time she had made it.


Quote:
Gerry
Still on this night,(Wednesday) KATE slept in the children's bedroom, in the bed next to the window, because the deponent was snoring.



THURSDAY


THURSDAY May 3rd
Madeleine McCann AM
Ella O'Brien
Amelie & Sean?
9.10
9.50
???
GM
ROB
???
12.25
12.30
???
KM
ROB
???
Ella O'Brien PM
Madeleine McCann
Amelie & Sean
Lily
2.30
2.50
2.45
XXX
ROB
KM
KM
XXX
4.30
5.30
5.25
XXX
CAT
KM
KM
XXX



10.15 - 11.15 KM ROB - Rec Area When her lesson ended at 10:15, she went to the recreation area next to the swimming pool to talk to Russell until Gerry’s lesson was over

KM JT RMO Court area - And present at that conversation were?”
Reply “Well certainly myself, Jane, Kate and Rachael,


RMO-
the last time you saw Madeleine
”?
Reply “Erm it was
when she was having a tennis lesson, in the morning yeah, about probably between ten thirty and eleven on the morning of the third of May”.
00.41.13 1578 “At the tennis courts”?
Reply “Yes at the tennis courts”.
[size=9]1578 “Any particular court”?
Reply “Erm it was the one, if you were standing facing the courts, it’s the one on the left
I think”.
NOTE: Madeleine's group played on Tuesday and all Mini's tennis was played on Court 2. Rachael is describing court 1. WHY LIE about seeing madeleine?
RMO“Erm well I saw Kate, I chatted to Kate by the pool, erm in the morning”.
1578 “What time was that”?
Reply “That would have been from sort of, you know half nine, ten o’clock onwards, we were chatting when Madeleine arrived for the tennis lesson with the rest of the children from her group, erm I think that was probably about ten thirty, erm and Gerry was there then as well, I think he’d been having a lesson on the tennis courts I think, he was having group lessons, so I think he might have been having his lesson sort of up until then, erm so they were both there then and then erm Matt and I had our tennis lesson

DP FP MO Sailing Dave and I, taking out a boat together. And, and that morning I think Matt came out as well and he was on a separate boat,



Russell
[size=9]After Jane’s tennis lesson I’ll try and preserve it as much as possible, ‘I recall that one of the guests erm, a man from Southampton came up full-stop. ‘His daughter it was his three year old daughter, ‘his young daughter was having a this, it may be word perfect, ‘was having a erm
1578 “We have got His daughter was playing tennisReply “Well, yeah, his, his daughter was having a tennis lesson, you know, a kid’s tennis lesson


And I think that’s important, particularly, because of what the man said, if Madeleine was potentially being photographed by anyone, it was absolutely clear that Madeleine and E were not there that day

And present at that conversation were?��?BR>Reply “Well certainly myself, Jane, Kate and Rachael,


NOTE: Russell (above) claims they were watching the mini group lesson at 10.30 - 11.00 and describes in detail.

Jane (below) claims they went to the beach and saw Madeleine and Ella.

Both statements are specific and a contradiction of each other

See below....




Jane
jRussell, me and Evie walked down to the
beach.I don’t know
where Kate went at that point, but she didn’t come to the beach with us

jDave and Fi were already down there and, no, we
metwe met Dave and Fi coming back, because they’d had their second, I think
they’d had their second sailing lessonthey said ‘Oh we’ve seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat down there’So then we
went down to the beach, erm, and Russell took out a kayak and I sat and just played



jElla and Madeleine and the rest of the groupthey were getting ready to walk back up to the, erm, tut, the
Kids Club

jI’ve got pictures
of Ella, of Evie, that’s about the first day I took pictures actually
Reply “So, yeah, so we had, erm, the tennis lesson finished, so I’ve had that conversation
about ‘Isn’t it awful you can’t watch your daughter’, blah, blah, blah, ‘You can’t film
your own daughter’. And then we walked down to the beach with Exx. So I think,
erm, I think we walked down, no, Dave and Fi were already down there and, no, we
met. Hang on. Sorry, I’m just trying to think.

(Contradiction corrected, it seems they did both but no mention of the beach by ROB when asked about seeing Madeleine)



jThursday was actually probably one of the first nice
days
the sun had more come out in the day




[/size]
[/size]

[size=9][size=25]LUNCHTIME


Midday

CRECHE
12.25 KM
At 12H00, he agreed with KATE, as he recalls it, that she would make lunch and the deponent would pick up MADELEINE. He thinks that it was KATE who took the twins home. Since it was he who went to collect MADELEINE, he is sure he used the short-cut.
NOTE: Kate claims she went back to the apartment at 12.15 and then picked Madeleine up with Fiona.

Fiona claims they stayed at the pool and then went to pick Madeleine up

Catriona cannot remember who picked Madeleine up

The creche records show Kate 12.25)


At 12h30 they started lunch, the meal having lasted an hour, until 13h30

GERRY At 12H00, together with KATE, as he recalls it, she made lunch and he went to get MADELEINE. He thinks that it was KATE who took the twins home. Since it was he who went to collect MADELEINE, he is sure he used the short-cut.


GERRY At 12h30 they started lunch, the meal having lasted an hour until 13h30


Afterwards, she is not sure, they went back together to the apartment until close to 12:15 when she went to Madeleine’s crèche to pick her up, together with Fiona Payne. She signed the crèche's register and went to the twins’ crèche with the intention of picking them up, she thinks that she met Gerry there, not knowing if he already had the twins with him. Together with the three children they went to the apartment for lunch, with food bought at the supermarket. This would be around 12:35/12:40. They ate sandwiches, mainly the deponent and Gerry, and the children maybe ate pasta. Lunch lasted around 20 minutes.


KATE Afterwards, she is not sure, they went back together to the apartment until close to 12:15 when she went to Madeleine’s creche to pick her up, together with Fiona Payne.
She signed the register and went to the twins’ creche with the intention of picking them up, she thought she would meet Gerry there, not knowing if he already had the twins with him

Together with the three children they went to
the apartment for lunch, with food bought at the supermarket. This would be around 12:35/12:40. They ate sandwiches, mainly she and Gerry, and the children maybe ate pasta. Lunch lasted around 20 minutes

FIONA PAYNE

“When did you see Kate and Gerald on Thursday, so when was the first time that you saw Kate and Gerry on the Thursday?”
Reply
“It would have been sort of late morning when we’d got back from our sailing and we got changed, got some warm things on and we were just sat on the sun loungers by the pool, erm, just having a drink and Kate and Gerry appeared, we offered them a drink, I think they turned down, they either, they’d just had a tennis lesson or had a knock, erm. In fact I think, was it Gerry had had a lesson then and was going into length degree to Kate about his style of tennis and I was joking that Kate was actually listening to this and finding it incredibly boring cos it’s the sort of thing, you know, they, as a couple, they did have amazing sort of patience with each other than (inaudible), I wouldn’t have that with David talking to me (inaudible), so there was that joke, so yeah I think it was Gerry just had a tennis lesson and Kate might have been having a knock up, but they were in their tennis gear


FP - And then it was time to pick up the kids, so Kate and I walked from the Tapas area over to the main reception, going between, you know, there was a sort of path that went between the other Ocean Club complex as well along the road, erm, and she picked up Madeleine and I picked up Scarlet and then we walked back together and that was the only day we ever did, ever did that. Erm,





KATE:
Dial: 03 May 08.23 ? --624
Rec: 03 May 08.24 ? --624
Rec: 03 May 12.31 Mum mob
Dial: 03 May 13.34 Mum mob

Rec: 03 May 23.17 Gerry
K..Rec: 03 May 23.17 Gerry
G..Dial: 00.03 Janet Kenn
G..Dial: 00.04 Trish Cameron
G..Dial: 00.04 Janet Kenn
G..Dial: 00.19 Trish Cameron
G..Dial: 00.20 Phil McCann
G..Dial: 00.21 John McCann

http://mccannfiles.com/id174.html:
On Thursday 3rd May 2007 (the critical day) at 8.23 and 8.24 Kate McCann's mobile activated the antenna to call xxxx7624. There is nothing in file to indicate the owner of this mobile but it does not appear to be any of the McCann family or friends.”
This is the carrier guy . Body is put in a car-risky in the morning or Carrier guy confirms-Body in freezer in an unused apartment/job done.

“At 12.24 Gerald McCann received a call from a UK Mobile xxxx1746. Again there is no clue in the file to the subscriber's name.”
Carrier guy confirms-Body in freezer in an unused apartment/job done. Or loose ends tied up call. Radio silence planned.

Ofcourse ,code words are used for maddy,freezer,etc. Would have been interesting who amanda called in the morning,calls checked from uk to portugal (to a male) on 2nd may morning, why kate’s mom called kate on 2nd may afternoon.

Somebody can answer me these doubts:
1.Exact time alarm raised by kate.A deposition by anyone other than Tapas9. 22.15-anyone? So time gels with smith sighting of GM (or russel???same brown hair) ( 2155-2200) with “amelie” or one of other girls who looks like maddy-she also being sedated so thather arms fall by the side. How much time for GM to return to Tapas from smith sighting point-by same way? Return via Other street?how much time?anyone from PDL in this forum? I think a waiting car (or a car following GM intelligently) dropped GM/Russel back near to 5A-timings too tight w/o car. GM wanted somebody to see a man carrying a child on the 3rd night to camoflauge the real time of dissappearance.
2.Location/reason for cadaverine smell on flowerbed?



Thursday 03.05.2007 - The day of the disappearance

Breakfast - Apartment
Comment Madeleine "Where were you (was I) when me and S cried?"
Kids club, time - check registration
09.00-09.30 → 12:30
Sailing (beach)
Wash M top of pyjamas - big stain
Lunch? apartment? tea
Tennis lesson 09.15-10.15
conversation on the grass w / Russell and Nigel (the video camera)
[?] Minutes of tennis
K
? get Madeleine
J and Fiona (Scarlett)
Then pick up S and A
(? Meeting there with G)
Breakfast - apartment -? balcony
? recreational area - ok
Afternoon / Kids club - a bit later
K Ella already there
Swimming - indoors pool
K and G - practice tennis then lesson and coach Dan
15.30 - 16.30
Julian appeared - continued to play with Gerry
I went to run → beach
(rest of the group on the beach)
Gerry went to meet the kids for high tea at Tapas. I joined them after running.
+ / - 17.20-17.30
[Strikethrough text illegible]
M very tired and quiet
Since Ella was taken from the KC → beach. I was a little worried that she was sad to have been alone. (Not realised that the group had gone to the beach.)
She said she was fine.
She asked me to pick her up and said she was tired.
I picked her up and carried her to the apartment with G and S and A
Prepared bath as kids tired and men's tennis night at 18.00.
I considered returning to the recreation area with the kids but decided to stay in the apartment after bath and hair wash.

G men's tennis night
B pyjamas
Biscuits and milk for the kids - left them with this and books and games and went to take a quick bath / wash my hair.
I got out of the bath and David was knocking on the patio doors.
I wrapped myself in a towel and went into the living room.
He asked if we wanted to go to the recreational area, since he could help me take the kids.
Refused - since kids ready for bed.
I dressed myself.
Ate some snacks with the kids
M tired - sitting on my lap - read story of MOG
Brush teeth
To bedroom with kids
G there too - I think.
[Children's music] - M telling story
M removes and lowers head on pillow

S + A good-night kisses for M
From S and A → cots x2
K gave a good-night kiss to M
Leaned the door as much as possible without closing it.
Silence
? dry hair
Make-up
Glass of wine
20:35 → rest. First to arrive
21:00 → G, Conversation with Steve
21:30 → Matt, Carolyn (Note: Carolyn is a witness who says she heard someone calling Madeleine's name, around 21:30, as she walked back to her apartment)
22:00 → Myself, 20:40 Jane next
20:45 Matt and Rachael
Russell?
Detained
Evie feeling sick
R went for a long time
Jane replaced him



http://mccannexposure.wordpress.com/2009/12/04/more-on-the-deleted-call-records-%E2%80%93-where-was-kate-mccann/
The first call found in Gerald’s mobile memory was timed at 00.30 on Friday 4th May 2007. Again matching antenna records to memory suggests that by the time he gave the handset to the PJ the records of 24 calls or SMSs had been erased, including the one from him found on his wife’s handset and timed at 23.17 on Thursday 3rd May 2007. It appears that he had deleted details of the four calls he made to her that night and she deleted just three. It was this simple discrepancy that first led the PJ to suspect interference with the handsets.

If the deletions were deliberate (and it is an “if”) it implies the McCann’s were both “forensically aware” and crafty and wanted to hide something from the PJ. For this reason, it is important to explore the call record data and to match it against other evidence




FRIDAY



FRIDAY May 4th
Amelie & Sean AM
Lily
10.10
10.10
DW
DW
12 20
12 20
FP
FP
GERRY:

Dial: 00.03 Janet Kenn (edy?)
Dial: 00.04 Trish Cameron
Dial: 00.04 Janet Kenn (edy?)
Dial: 00.19 Trish Cameron
Dial: 00.20 Phil McCann
Dial: 00.21 John McCann
Dial: 08.48 Angela Morado
Rec: 12.08 Private number
Rec: 12.55 Kate
Rec: 13.42 ?
Rec: 13.43 Private number
Rec: 13.46 Junior
Rec: 14.00 Phil McCann
Rec: 14.10 ?
Dial: 14.24 Brian Healy
Dial: 14.24 ?
Rec: 14.35 John McCann

KATE:
Dial: 04 May 00.45 Mum&Dad
Rec: 04 May 01.02 ?
Rec: 04 May 02.39 Lynda and Mark
Dial: 04 May 02.27 ?
Dial: 04 May 03.09 ?
Rec: 04 May 03.29 Jon
Dial: 04 May 06.05 Amanda home
Rec: 04 May 07.48 ?
Dial: 04 May 08.31 Michelle&Jon
Dial: 04 May 08.31 Michelle Mob
Dial: 04 May 08.45 ?
Dial: 04 May 08.52 Jon Mob
Rec: 04 May 09.33 Michelle&Jon
Dial: 04 May 08.56 Nula
Rec: 04 May 09.33 Michelle@Jon
Rec: 04 May 09.45 Fiona&Richar
Rec: 04 May 10.06 ?
Dial: 04 May 10.20 Mum&Dad
Dial: 04 May 10.30 Fiona&Richar
Rec: 04 May 10.35 Geetisha Mob
Rec: 04 May 10.45 ?
Rec: 04 May 12.25 ?
Rec: 04 May 11.35 Anne&Michael
Dial: 04 May 12.16 901
Rec: 04 May 12.25 ?
Rec: 04 May 12.37 ?
Dial: 04 May 12.57 Gerry





[/size]
[/size]








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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by PeterMac on 04.01.12 17:01

To admin -
Could someone sort out the font sizes please !!

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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by HiDeHo on 04.01.12 17:36

@PeterMac wrote:To admin -
Could someone sort out the font sizes please !!

I mentioned in the OP that I would be editing it.

Unfortunately its not a case of copy/paste and changing the size...some areas do not allow for it to be changed, it does weird things (change the first letter and the rest of the sentence changes also then when changing the next line the original goes back to small!).

I do apologise and have been working on it, but until posting it I was not able to see how it would look and what needed changing.

I have to redo the entire thing using plain text and then editing and highlighting after.

Please bear with me!

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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by jd on 04.01.12 18:31

This is fantastic work HiDeHo....and really helps when putting things together like this

Theoretically putting myself into kate and gerrys situation....they are both there in the apartment on their own with their kids.....one of them comes up and says something that is unusual and never come from the child before, something which in a few hours time would become very important indeed. How on earth can they get what Maddie said soooo wrong, why can't they remember the very simple ABC question she asked.

gerry quotes in his first statement, ' Maddie addressed him 'why didn't you (gerry) come when the twins were crying''...you would have thought, simple enough to remember what his daughter said and to whom from 2 people in such a vital important time
but no, a week later he says...his daughter addressed his wife not him and said 'why didn;t you come when I (Maddie) and Sean were crying last night'

Hopefully kate might be able to shed some light on the one simple question Maddie asked and to whom from 2 people.....

kate says in her statement at the same time as her husbands, that Maddie was addressing her asking 'why didn't you (kate) come when the twins were crying'

So now we have a 3rd different version of this simple question Maddie asked and to whom she was asking, though we might have struck lucky with it was the twins Maddie was referring to whom was crying. The 4th version of this simple question should clear matters up in kates next statement a week later
But wait, she says.....Maddie was asking both of them why they didn't come when she (only Maddie) was crying last night'....a complete and total contradiction of everything said in 4 different statements within 7 days of each other, and from a situation where there were only 3 people involved!

They can remember and be consistent on what wine they drunk that day, what colour, and what country it came from, yes they can clearly remember this detail...but they cannot remember and totally change whom their daughter was asking and the simple ABC question she was asking!

And they have the audacity to threaten libel against people who question the contradictions & facts like these, this being just one from absolute hundreds of them! Yet Governments protect them , the media lie on their behalf...what the hell is going on here


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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by HiDeHo on 04.01.12 18:43

Personally, I don't think it happened but I used one of Kates interview comments where she describes it and said if Madeleine hadn't been abducted she would not have thought about it again...but I pointed out that she DID and showed Jane and Fiona's statements about her telling them!

Its at about 3.47 of this video...





I must have used the clip I was describing in another video...but its similar in the above one.

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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 04.01.12 20:12

The main problem I have in my mind with something happening earlier is being able to keep calm and carry on with two tinies and all that two-ing and fro-ing, plus interacting with a big group of other adults etc all in an environment which is not a comfort zone. It seems very complex. I just don't know how anyone could go off to a bar and eat tapas. Although Gerry did manage to get an hours sleep the night his daughter disappeared into the darkness never to be seen again. I couldn't believe that. As if you could after your 3 yr old had just vanished.

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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by jd on 04.01.12 21:08

Great Video HiDeHo...Exactly says what I am feeling and everyone else and it needs to be put together to show the inconsistencies like this

I personally think they said about Maddie asking the crying question straight off because they knew the twins had been crying in the previous nights due to missing Maddie, and that the neighbours upstairs had heard, so they got in straight away and twisted it for Maddie to ask the question, hence she would have still been alive on the 3rd. They were worried someone like Mrs Fenn would say to the Police she heard crying from their apartment. They showed the same tactics with the PJ, they were straight in there attacking them to everyone they could phone and moan at...they were worried the PJ might suss them out so they got in there first to discredit them as much as they could so if any accusations came their way from the PJ, people would think how incompetent they are. I can see the game they are playing here

Also of note, on Maddies sticker book they ripped the back off to write down the timeline, the first point on it was 'all shutters down'...again this was on their minds to tell everyone they could phone how they were jemmied etc. This was all part of the plan in selling the scam abduction story

Interesting that a month before in a MW resort in Egypt, a little child escaped through the window by herself...wonder if MW were the ones to inspire the shutters open/window escape of the abductor story? I think so. A MW manager said to the undercover reporter in a cavalier way that 'children go missing all the time''' at the resort in Egypt.

From the video it is so very odd that gerry says a little girl has gone missing and not my daughter. Would any normal sane minded parent say a little girl had gone when its their daughter...I think not somehow!!



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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by HiDeHo on 04.01.12 21:09

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:The main problem I have in my mind with something happening earlier is being able to keep calm and carry on with two tinies and all that two-ing and fro-ing, plus interacting with a big group of other adults etc all in an environment which is not a comfort zone. It seems very complex. I just don't know how anyone could go off to a bar and eat tapas. Although Gerry did manage to get an hours sleep the night his daughter disappeared into the darkness never to be seen again. I couldn't believe that. As if you could after your 3 yr old had just vanished.

I feel the point about it happening earlier helps to account for why they were able to act 'normally'

There was a sudden 'distancing' from the rest of the group (in their statement descriptions) this could have been a front for what was really happening. Once Madeleine had died there would be shock, grief, cleaning and ultimately creating the 'plan'.

We don't know that Kate was at the Tapas on Tuesday night...She was not seen by Najoua the quiz mistress, who also didn't see David Payne. ROB was supposedly back at his apartment with a sick child that needed bed linen cleaned.

On Wednesday evening Jez Wilkins did not see Kate or Jane arrive. Gerry arived with ROB. He was told she was getting the children to sleep.

There are many situations that are difficult to explain, but considering we know very little about what they did and what happened it is not out of the question that the explanation to some of the scenarios is not yet known.

If something happened earlier in the week it would have given the opportunity to get everything in place, with little possibility of them having to explain their actions for that time....until some of us came on to the scene to look at the discrepancies...



(There was lots more that I wanted to add but just had a flower delivery...the little man read the message out and hesitated at 29th birthday...I think he had a moment of wondering if he had the wrong house!)

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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by sharonl on 04.01.12 21:17

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:The main problem I have in my mind with something happening earlier is being able to keep calm and carry on with two tinies and all that two-ing and fro-ing, plus interacting with a big group of other adults etc all in an environment which is not a comfort zone. It seems very complex. I just don't know how anyone could go off to a bar and eat tapas. Although Gerry did manage to get an hours sleep the night his daughter disappeared into the darkness never to be seen again. I couldn't believe that. As if you could after your 3 yr old had just vanished.

It's seems that under the circumstances they were very calm and kept that way until September 2007.

The problem I have is with Madeleine disappearing on May 3rd. If Madeleine had died in the apartment they would first have to get over shock of finding her dead or injured and eventually losing her. Then they would have to decide what to do, next they would need to clean up. There would have been blood splatters, a cadaver to dispose of, a room to clean, curtains to wash, and an abduction to stage, etc. etc. etc, this couldn't be properly thought out within a few hours let alone put into action. If this was the case then some forward planning would have been required.


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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by jd on 04.01.12 21:20

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:The main problem I have in my mind with something happening earlier is being able to keep calm and carry on with two tinies and all that two-ing and fro-ing, plus interacting with a big group of other adults etc all in an environment which is not a comfort zone. It seems very complex. I just don't know how anyone could go off to a bar and eat tapas. Although Gerry did manage to get an hours sleep the night his daughter disappeared into the darkness never to be seen again. I couldn't believe that. As if you could after your 3 yr old had just vanished.

I have thought this too many times, but they were the same on the night of the 3rd at the Tapas bar. They have been shown to be cold in terms of emotions and why they always make a point that they were told not to show any (Ive never seen any other parent behave like this)...its an attempt to cover up & defend their lack of emotions. And the famous picture 9 days later when they laughing and smiling like they had won the lottery. This wasn't a thank you kind of smile, this was a real happy I feel great laughing pouring out of their bodies. And this was at a time when their daughter had only very recently gone missing and most likely locked in a dark room somewhere with untold things happening, nobody would ever have this happiness flowing out of their bodies in this situation....nobody if their story was true

And you have people saying very nasty things that they think are happening to Maddie and they say nothing and do nothing. Yet get very angry when an extract of a diary gets published!!! The term 'smell the coffee' comes to mind




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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by Guest on 05.01.12 9:58

@sharonl wrote:
@Smokeandmirrors wrote:The main problem I have in my mind with something happening earlier is being able to keep calm and carry on with two tinies and all that two-ing and fro-ing, plus interacting with a big group of other adults etc all in an environment which is not a comfort zone. It seems very complex. I just don't know how anyone could go off to a bar and eat tapas. Although Gerry did manage to get an hours sleep the night his daughter disappeared into the darkness never to be seen again. I couldn't believe that. As if you could after your 3 yr old had just vanished.

It's seems that under the circumstances they were very calm and kept that way until September 2007.

The problem I have is with Madeleine disappearing on May 3rd. If Madeleine had died in the apartment they would first have to get over shock of finding her dead or injured and eventually losing her. Then they would have to decide what to do, next they would need to clean up. There would have been blood splatters, a cadaver to dispose of, a room to clean, curtains to wash, and an abduction to stage, etc. etc. etc, this couldn't be properly thought out within a few hours let alone put into action. If this was the case then some forward planning would have been required.

Exactly. This must prove it did not happen on the night of the 3rd, as the GNR, PJ and forensics would have noticed the lower half of the curtain still wet.

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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by monkey mind on 05.01.12 11:38

I think the fact that they were calm and collected is a good pointer to earlier in the week. It gave them all time to settle down. Once the body was successfully hidden/stored there was breathing space to relax. There is no evidence of an abduction full stop. If he were in the midst of disposing of a body would G have been able to hold a calm conversation with Jes Wilkins in the street? I don’t care how in control of your emotions you are he would have appeared nervous or agitated, he didn’t expect to meet him. But if he were only on his way to perhaps fake a forced entry with the body gone days earlier, well that is a different matter entirely.

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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by jd on 05.01.12 12:01

During the evening of Wednesday 31 October 2007, Jeremy and Bridget were visited at heir home address by DC 1756 and DC 4356 from the Leicestershire OP Task team:
LEICESTERSHIRE CONSTABULARY
OFFICER’S REPORT

Date: 05/11/07

He did not meet up with Gerry or any of the group again until Tues 1 May 07.
This was again during a tennis session and it was at this time he met some of the group and realized that the people he met on the Plane were indeed part of the group.

Jeremy explained that he used the crèche facility provided by the resort. This was a child care facility which allowed parents to leave their children, aged between 3 – 5 yrs old, with trained staff at various times of the day. He recalled walking to the crèche with Gerry who had left Madeleine with the staff. This was about 1230 hrs on Tues 1 May. He then went on to explain that the children could be left with the staff during the evening and that most would be picked up before 10pm. It was not an unusual sight to see people walking through the site at night with a child in their arms asleep. The crèche would also provide a blanket to cover the child if required. He had taken up this facility hence his knowledge of the procedure.

Jeremy and Bridget became aware that although the McCanns had taken up the use of the crèche facility during the day, they had not done so for the evening hours and had left the children in the apartment but were checking on them regularly and that other members of the group appeared to be doing the same.
They expressed surprise over this as the McCanns apartment was set in a location that appeared vulnerable. They were aware that the apartment was a corner building and with easy access from the road. The apartments were not very secure and entry could easily be gained.

Several weeks later, Jeremy received calls from Gerry in relation to gaining permission from him to use his name in a portfolio of evidence being compiled by an organization employed by the McCanns. They were very persistent and made several attempts to contact him both at work and at home. They had no objection to being included but were concerned as to the method being used

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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by Guest on 05.01.12 12:08

@jd wrote:During the evening of Wednesday 31 October 2007, Jeremy and Bridget were visited at heir home address by DC 1756 and DC 4356 from the Leicestershire OP Task team:
LEICESTERSHIRE CONSTABULARY
OFFICER’S REPORT

Date: 05/11/07

He did not meet up with Gerry or any of the group again until Tues 1 May 07.
This was again during a tennis session and it was at this time he met some of the group and realized that the people he met on the Plane were indeed part of the group.

Jeremy explained that he used the crèche facility provided by the resort. This was a child care facility which allowed parents to leave their children, aged between 3 – 5 yrs old, with trained staff at various times of the day. He recalled walking to the crèche with Gerry who had left Madeleine with the staff. This was about 1230 hrs on Tues 1 May. He then went on to explain that the children could be left with the staff during the evening and that most would be picked up before 10pm. It was not an unusual sight to see people walking through the site at night with a child in their arms asleep. The crèche would also provide a blanket to cover the child if required. He had taken up this facility hence his knowledge of the procedure.

Jeremy and Bridget became aware that although the McCanns had taken up the use of the crèche facility during the day, they had not done so for the evening hours and had left the children in the apartment but were checking on them regularly and that other members of the group appeared to be doing the same.
They expressed surprise over this as the McCanns apartment was set in a location that appeared vulnerable. They were aware that the apartment was a corner building and with easy access from the road. The apartments were not very secure and entry could easily be gained.

Several weeks later, Jeremy received calls from Gerry in relation to gaining permission from him to use his name in a portfolio of evidence being compiled by an organization employed by the McCanns. They were very persistent and made several attempts to contact him both at work and at home. They had no objection to being included but were concerned as to the method being used


Thanks jd, I had not seen this before. Interesting. Do you have a link please?


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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by annabel on 05.01.12 12:35


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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by Guest on 05.01.12 12:53


Thanks annabel thumbsup

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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by Guest on 05.01.12 12:55

@monkey mind wrote:I think the fact that they were calm and collected is a good pointer to earlier in the week. It gave them all time to settle down. Once the body was successfully hidden/stored there was breathing space to relax. There is no evidence of an abduction full stop. If he were in the midst of disposing of a body would G have been able to hold a calm conversation with Jes Wilkins in the street? I don’t care how in control of your emotions you are he would have appeared nervous or agitated, he didn’t expect to meet him. But if he were only on his way to perhaps fake a forced entry with the body gone days earlier, well that is a different matter entirely.
Exactly, nor was he in a hurry to end the conversation quickly. He had time on his hands.

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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by Daisy on 05.01.12 13:49

Thanks for posting that up JD first time I've seen that too. That's another one! It's astounding how many witnesses were interfered with contacted by the Mccann's.

Perhaps we should start a thread to list them all?

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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by jd on 05.01.12 13:54

@Daisy wrote:Thanks for posting that up JD first time I've seen that too. That's another one! It's astounding how many witnesses were interfered with contacted by the Mccann's.

Perhaps we should start a thread to list them all?

This is a good idea Daisy. When put together side by side it would show clearly the level of extent they have gone to and show how astounding it is

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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by tigger on 05.01.12 14:06

@jd wrote:
@Daisy wrote:Thanks for posting that up JD first time I've seen that too. That's another one! It's astounding how many witnesses were interfered with contacted by the Mccann's.

Perhaps we should start a thread to list them all?

This is a good idea Daisy. When put together side by side it would show clearly the level of extent they have gone to and show how astounding it is

And from JD's earlier post: 'They were very persistent and made several attempts to contact him both at work and at home. They had no objection to being included but were concerned as to the method being used' unquote.

Just thought, methods seem eerily similar to those used by double glazing salesmen? Now who would know....

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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by jd on 05.01.12 14:22

@tigger wrote:

Just thought, methods seem eerily similar to those used by double glazing salesmen? Now who would know....

lol! mmmmm yes!!!...who could this be whistling

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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by PeterMac on 05.01.12 14:53

@jd wrote:During the evening of Wednesday 31 October 2007, Jeremy and Bridget were visited at their home address by DC 1756 and DC 4356 from the Leicestershire OP Task team:
LEICESTERSHIRE CONSTABULARY
OFFICER’S REPORT
Date: 05/11/07
SNIP He then went on to explain that the children could be left with the staff during the evening and that most would be picked up before 10pm. It was not an unusual sight to see people walking through the site at night with a child in their arms asleep. The crèche would also provide a blanket to cover the child if required. He had taken up this facility hence his knowledge of the procedure.

So, Kate, what do you make of JT's sighting now ? Still convinced that it was the "assumed" and "hypothetical" "abductor" ?

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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by aiyoyo on 05.01.12 15:58

@PeterMac wrote:
@jd wrote:During the evening of Wednesday 31 October 2007, Jeremy and Bridget were visited at their home address by DC 1756 and DC 4356 from the Leicestershire OP Task team:
LEICESTERSHIRE CONSTABULARY
OFFICER’S REPORT
Date: 05/11/07
SNIP He then went on to explain that the children could be left with the staff during the evening and that most would be picked up before 10pm. It was not an unusual sight to see people walking through the site at night with a child in their arms asleep. The crèche would also provide a blanket to cover the child if required. He had taken up this facility hence his knowledge of the procedure.

So, Kate, what do you make of JT's sighting now ? Still convinced that it was the "assumed" and "hypothetical" "abductor" ?

vow, well spotted.

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Re: Could Something Have Happened to Madeleine Earlier in the Week?

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 05.01.12 16:07

Are there any records available for the evening creche, or only the ones pertaining to the Tapas group? It seems then, that it is not out of the question that Jane did see a man with a child, but it could be innocent, and once the media storm kicked off the person decided to remain quiet on the subject because they didn't want or need any hassle. I suppose this option has been investigated.

Since the story broke about Madeleine and the ensuing frenzy, one couldn't entirely condemn a person for not wanting to get swept up in all the hysteria, particularly if they had to leave the resort and go home to some completely pressing business if they knew they had nothing helpful to add to the equation. Or they simply didn't want to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and all the hassle that would entail.

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