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Introduction and viewpoint.

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by Nina on 23.12.11 21:50

Monkey Mind, re the leakage, I think that was per rectum, various reasons for that and not for public view. I agree with your hypothesis re the burying in sand, this would start mumification of the outside of the body but decomposition had started in the inside in the bowel as is normal. So was the body then moved to a freezer, the freezer walloped up to fast freeze and the mumification and decomposition frozen in time. Another removal, later, the weather now much warmer and the start of defrost and the leakage from the very start per rectum evident again but this time much more the smell of cadaver, and yes I have smelt cadaver.

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by Gillyspot on 23.12.11 22:16

I understand your point Nina and think it makes sense.

I have smelt cadaver but thankfully not human but it is a smell that I will never forget.

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by monkey mind on 23.12.11 22:24

Nina, yes, it’s the much more smell of cadaver bit that is significant isn’t it. That’s what was troubling me with a frozen corpse. But why move it at all before the final disposal? In time the inner decomposition under a reasonable covering of sand for a month or six weeks would be slowed somewhat one would imagine, and due to mummification the outer shell would still have sufficient integrity to contain some or most of the inner fluid. I still think freezing within a couple days of the event is the most plausible but that has to be tweaked to marry with what we know of the car. I don’t buy this nappies/rotten meat scenario. We know there was a cadaver in that car and it seems certain whose it was. The cadaver dog and dna evidence taken separately tell a story, but together it is a much more powerful one. So the nappy/meat nonsense is yet another cloud. Such cloudy days.

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by Nina on 23.12.11 22:47

@monkey mind wrote:Nina, yes, it’s the much more smell of cadaver bit that is significant isn’t it. That’s what was troubling me with a frozen corpse. But why move it at all before the final disposal? In time the inner decomposition under a reasonable covering of sand for a month or six weeks would be slowed somewhat one would imagine, and due to mummification the outer shell would still have sufficient integrity to contain some or most of the inner fluid. I still think freezing within a couple days of the event is the most plausible but that has to be tweaked to marry with what we know of the car. I don’t buy this nappies/rotten meat scenario. We know there was a cadaver in that car and it seems certain whose it was. The cadaver dog and dna evidence taken separately tell a story, but together it is a much more powerful one. So the nappy/meat nonsense is yet another cloud. Such cloudy days.

Hi again, baking so on and off We have to bear in mind that Madeleine disappeared during low season, your month/6 weeks on is getting busier, more people milling around so may be expedient to move to another storage place. Again this period of time is not sufficient to render the body mumified so there is still decomposition. What I cannot understand though is any contact with a cadaver after this time couldn't have been done without masks and coveralls, imo of course.

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by monkey mind on 24.12.11 9:31

Morning Nina, hope the baking went well :^)

Well I suppose it could have been moved as late as say mid July. But you are right, it would definitely have been a mask jobbie. Whilst I had been running this idea around my head for a couple of days it seemed to have merit, but now I have committed it to paper so to speak I’m not so convinced, illustrates the value of civilised discussion eh.

No, it’s much more likely to be the frozen scenario. I’d still like to know why the car smelled so much. I suppose it is possible that it didn’t actually smell that bad and the boot and doors being left open for a number of days was for the reason Stella indicated, that it had been scrubbed and washed, but several doses of that still wouldn’t be enough to fool the nose of a dog. It’s a real disappointment that the lady lawyer who saw the boot open a number of days wasn’t re-interviewed with a view to pinning down when exactly that was. Think of the value if we knew the date when that boot was first left open to say within a week

And I’m still puzzled as to how or why the body was defrosted enough to have leaked a significant amount of fluid after all, it must have been in a bag. Even in the interior of the car in say July I still think it would have taken quite some time to thaw, you would certainly have the windows open and quite likely be driving evening or night. As I recall, the defrost time in a coolish morgue is over 2 days. I think Upsy Daisy’s thoughts in an earlier comment are very worthy of consideration. That could certainly account for things.

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by rainbow-fairy on 24.12.11 10:27

Would it alter timings and such as the cadaver in question was so small and slight? I've seen the comparison to turkey - wouldn't this be different? I don't know. I've had a few brushes with putrefaction and it isn't a smell ever forgotten is it? My hamster died in its nest, it was four days before I realised - ewww. I noted the same smell in my house a few weeks ago. Finally tracked it down to a dead mouse behind my bookshelf Sad One my cat had brought in to play with and let slip away! It. Really. Smelt. So I can only imagine the smell in question...

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by monkey mind on 24.12.11 11:05

Good point. Yes it would I should imagine, a small child would be quicker than an adult no doubt.

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by Guest on 24.12.11 11:12

If Madeleine died on the night of the 28th, another property with a freezer would have been the first port of call, sometime during the morning of the 29th. Digging holes in the sand on the 29th during the day, right up until the sun goes down, would be out of the question. If she was in a freezer, in an empty property, why then would they need to move her to the sand?

Sand for me is totally out of the question.

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by jd on 24.12.11 11:18

Was the hire car for the Garrods ever investigated? They mysteriously disappeared for a day from 28th April before arriving at OC on the 30th....where did they go for a day?

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by Guest on 24.12.11 11:35

@jd wrote:Was the hire car for the Garrods ever investigated? They mysteriously disappeared for a day from 28th April before arriving at OC on the 30th....where did they go for a day?

We really need to make sure that when we talk about the Gorrods, that we spell their name correctly. Anyone searching for information on them, will not find it if we spell them name incorrectly.

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by Nina on 24.12.11 12:12

Stella wrote:If Madeleine died on the night of the 28th, another property with a freezer would have been the first port of call, sometime during the morning of the 29th. Digging holes in the sand on the 29th during the day, right up until the sun goes down, would be out of the question. If she was in a freezer, in an empty property, why then would they need to move her to the sand?

Sand for me is totally out of the question.

Hello Stella, got the sprouts on yet ?

Before the 3rd when all was made public anybody could have just about done anything. It was quiet, not many folk around, weather quite poor so not many on any of the beaches so digging on a beach would be fairly easy I would think, though the tides for me would be the more problamatic consideration than anyone actually seeing me digging on a beach.

It is just/only a hypothesis.

Thinking if decomposition. This starts in a small way straight after death and gradually increases. So maybe by the time of finding a freezer and if it is switched off in an empty apartment or villa, getting it to the stage of actually freezing then any decomposition would be more advanced.

So an already decomposing body is frozen, the decomposition is inside the body and fairly advanced.

Remove the body weeks later. It is much warmer weather now and the body starts to leak. Any orifice is lined with moist mucous membrane, when frozen there will be crystals and I believe it is this that GA speaks of.

Back to the analogy of the frozen festive turkey. The surface skin is frozen but dry. Now look inside......crystals of frozen body fluid, and these are the dangerous parts of a frozen turkey.

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by monkey mind on 24.12.11 13:20

Well my initial thought was that she was probably stored in the wardrobe in the early hours of 29 the wardrobe where the dog got a hit, and then, if it was the 28/29 as it clearly looks, then there would have been a plan A for storage, but for some reason that went wrong, so during the day 29th a suitable spot was sought and moved that night.

But I now agree, this is very unlikely. It has to be the freezer. Another interesting date is the 30th. In her book as you know K devotes 16 pages to the 28th to the 2nd, but only 6 lines of those to the 30th, and in her diary there is very little and I don’t think she mentions G at all. It’s like that day hardly existed for her, and not at all for him.

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by Guest on 24.12.11 14:02

@monkey mind wrote:Another interesting date is the 30th. In her book as you know K devotes 16 pages to the 28th to the 2nd, but only 6 lines of those to the 30th, and in her diary there is very little and I don’t think she mentions G at all. It’s like that day hardly existed for her, and not at all for him.

This is the day a Madeleine was signed in and out of creche in the afternoon after only 15 minutes. Something unexpected must have happened that day.

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by rainbow-fairy on 24.12.11 14:45

Something that always helps me, when things seem odd around dates/times and disposal/moving of a cadaver is this.
Far from being the 'poor Brits alone abroad' they would try to have us believe, it has since emerged the sheer number of friends/influential contacts/famous people were in and around Praia da Luz at the very same time. Not to mention Clement Freud (with all his links to the papers) having a house there. They had top-level consular support from the get-go. It seems plausible to me, therefore, that had something happened to Maddie early on, say the 30th, she could easily have been moved quietly long before 'Act One'. Maybe think of it as the prologue? There were no press, nobody watching an at-the-time-anonymous family. I think she was safely stored by the 3rd, and could be backed up by phones being switched back on at the times they were, perhaps a 'confirmation call'. Giving the ok to go ahead with the staged abduction, safe in the knowledge of exactly where Madeleine was.

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by Guest on 24.12.11 15:01

@rainbow-fairy wrote:Something that always helps me, when things seem odd around dates/times and disposal/moving of a cadaver is this.
Far from being the 'poor Brits alone abroad' they would try to have us believe, it has since emerged the sheer number of friends/influential contacts/famous people were in and around Praia da Luz at the very same time. Not to mention Clement Freud (with all his links to the papers) having a house there. They had top-level consular support from the get-go. It seems plausible to me, therefore, that had something happened to Maddie early on, say the 30th, she could easily have been moved quietly long before 'Act One'. Maybe think of it as the prologue? There were no press, nobody watching an at-the-time-anonymous family. I think she was safely stored by the 3rd, and could be backed up by phones being switched back on at the times they were, perhaps a 'confirmation call'. Giving the ok to go ahead with the staged abduction, safe in the knowledge of exactly where Madeleine was.

I could go along with that except for the date. If something happened to her on the 30th, that would mean Madeleine McCann was at the creche and high tea for two whole days, then the substitute filled in for her the next 3 days. I think someone would have noticed that somehow.

It must have happened before 9.45 am on the 29th, most likely the night of the 28th.

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by Nina on 24.12.11 15:18

Stella wrote:
@rainbow-fairy wrote:Something that always helps me, when things seem odd around dates/times and disposal/moving of a cadaver is this.
Far from being the 'poor Brits alone abroad' they would try to have us believe, it has since emerged the sheer number of friends/influential contacts/famous people were in and around Praia da Luz at the very same time. Not to mention Clement Freud (with all his links to the papers) having a house there. They had top-level consular support from the get-go. It seems plausible to me, therefore, that had something happened to Maddie early on, say the 30th, she could easily have been moved quietly long before 'Act One'. Maybe think of it as the prologue? There were no press, nobody watching an at-the-time-anonymous family. I think she was safely stored by the 3rd, and could be backed up by phones being switched back on at the times they were, perhaps a 'confirmation call'. Giving the ok to go ahead with the staged abduction, safe in the knowledge of exactly where Madeleine was.

I could go along with that except for the date. If something happened to her on the 30th, that would mean Madeleine McCann was at the creche and high tea for two whole days, then the substitute filled in for her the next 3 days. I think someone would have noticed that somehow.

It must have happened before 9.45 am on the 29th, most likely the night of the 28th.

So the arrival date then?

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by rainbow-fairy on 24.12.11 16:11

Stella wrote:
@rainbow-fairy wrote:Something that always helps me, when things seem odd around dates/times and disposal/moving of a cadaver is this.
Far from being the 'poor Brits alone abroad' they would try to have us believe, it has since emerged the sheer number of friends/influential contacts/famous people were in and around Praia da Luz at the very same time. Not to mention Clement Freud (with all his links to the papers) having a house there. They had top-level consular support from the get-go. It seems plausible to me, therefore, that had something happened to Maddie early on, say the 30th, she could easily have been moved quietly long before 'Act One'. Maybe think of it as the prologue? There were no press, nobody watching an at-the-time-anonymous family. I think she was safely stored by the 3rd, and could be backed up by phones being switched back on at the times they were, perhaps a 'confirmation call'. Giving the ok to go ahead with the staged abduction, safe in the knowledge of exactly where Madeleine was.

I could go along with that except for the date. If something happened to her on the 30th, that would mean Madeleine McCann was at the creche and high tea for two whole days, then the substitute filled in for her the next 3 days. I think someone would have noticed that somehow.

It must have happened before 9.45 am on the 29th, most likely the night of the 28th.
Hey Stella, I'm with you on this - I pulled the date out of thin air really. My post was just to illustrate that they had plenty of help, and weren't necessarily doing things under the nose of media etc. I think it was settled earlier rather than later. When? Not sure yet!

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by monkey mind on 24.12.11 16:17

Yes, if the creche records are anything to go by it would appear the day of arrival or early hours of the 29th. But there also appears to be something odd about the 30th as I mentioned earlier. I'm wondering if there was a delay in accessing the permanent temporary hiding place if you get my drift and the 30th was actually the day this happened hence the lack of info on this date. It would also give time for the internal decomposition process to begin in earnest and so would explain some of the other problems with the car which we were discussing.

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with you about 30th monkey mind

Post by russiandoll on 24.12.11 21:02

Posted weeks ago elsewhere about this date being significant........the book is remarkable for the way details for other days appear pages long, although described by the author as following a settled pattern and so routine, yet nothing for 30th save mention of tapas meal and a trip to a supermarket to get a few things.
And that bizarre signinjg in then out of creche for Madeleine within 15 mins whilst the twins stayed at their creche until tea time around 5.30. 2 hours in which Madeleine McCann appears to be elsewhere with her parents or other supervising adults.
Why is there nothing in the book or diary to tell us what this child was doing and with whom for 2 hours on this date when there is so much about those days that followed a pattern.....still deemed worthy of mention in the diary and later book. Surely if parents took a child for a special couple of hours as a treat on her own it would be worthy of mentioning in a book about her ? Precisely because it was a break in routine.
Surely the review will see this in the files which include the diary and creche records.

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by jd on 24.12.11 22:59

Yes, if the creche records are anything to go by it would appear the day of arrival or early hours of the 29th.

If it was the day of arrival or early hours of the 29th then I strongly suspect that the Burgau Somilar apartment was used to hide the body and possibly the Garrods helped transport it to a different location away from PDL. This was certainly something the PJ were looking into. Using info/facts from previous topics and references:

The Garrods arrived on 28th April and picked up their rental car at 20:06 from Faro..they were booked in OC from April 30th on the booking sheets....so where were they for 36 hours? What could they have been doing? Staff at rental firm Sixt, based at Faro airport, raised the alarm when he returned the vehicle on May 6 – because it was fitted with a child seat and they believed he was travelling alone. He was at OC with his wife and then 2 month old son from 30th April to 6th May. Police were alerted after Mr Gorrod returned the car eight days later. The vehicle was never examined by Portuguese police and was leased out five more times. Three months into the investigation British police carried out a major review of the case and car hire bosses were ordered to take it off the road

The Portuguese police asked Tanner/ O’Brien if they knew anybody who had access to a car and they gave the Gorrod names as the only ones

The Gorrods live in Exeter, Devon, just two minutes from their friends, hospital consultant Dr Russell O’Brien and Jane Tanner. Robert Murat was just up the road too the week before the holiday. James Gorrod is a solicitor at Ansteys in Exeter, and specialises in property and contraction law. Murat has been employed by several property dealers, including Remax in Lagos, where Ocean Country has its head office

The Burgau Somilar apartments is alleged to be owned by relatives of Robert Murat. The Jacinto e Murat company which his father started built the apartment and there are some rumours that the block is or was managed by their real estate arm

http://www.jacinto-murat.pt/paginas/jm-ing.html
http://www.jacinto-murat.pt/portugal/solimar/index.html


Posted by Kikoratan: I have come to suspect in the last few days that Jane Tanner did, indeed, know Robert Murat before April 2007, and that it may have been he who was in contact with her on three occasions listed in the PJ Phone Records. They are as follows:

Quote "The first record from this number occurs on 29/04/2007 at 4:12:33, on antenna
"Luz Centro 2"; and the last dated on 17 May, 2007, at 10:10:01 on antenna
"Aeroporto-Faro 2".
The existence of 294 records is observed, in which only 3,74% occur before the
disappearance of the young girl.
APRIL 2007
On 29th the mobile phone that is owned by Jane Tanner has two activations,
including the one referred to above, both on the antenna "Luz Centro 2".
On 30th there exist only two records, at 18:31:14 and 20:41:44, also on that
antenna. "

The key times are:
0412 on the morning of 29 April (which could be Murat informing Tanner that he had made the booking for his flight, which we know took place that night, between midnight and 0200 AFAIR), and
1831 and 2041 on 30 April, which might be last-minute arrangements for Murat's flight early the next morning.

Maybe it was the Gorrods phoning jane tanner at 04.12am in the morning? They were out somewhere in Portugal at that time as they did not go to OC

DNA found in the Burgau apartment of both Robert Murat and Jane Tanner

- The Haplotype identified by the letters M e M*, present in 49 samples, (35 in the Residencia Liliana, 13 in the vehicle Volkswagen and 1 in the bathroom of the apartament in Burgau), and identical to that of Robert James Queriol Eveleight Murat (RQMU), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.

- The Haplotype identified by the letter S, present in 2 samples, (apartment in Burgau), and identical to that of Jane Michelle Tanner (JT), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.

Murat seems to have made a quick last minute dash back to PDL on the 1st May. Soon as he gets back there is identical mobile phone activity to gerry mccans mobile and kates as explained in another topic. I suspect either or both Murats then girlfriend and Malinka had access to the apartment while Murat was still in the UK. Malinka & Murat worked together (or were partners for many years) even though murat claimed he hadn't spoken to him in a year despite the fact a 30 second mobile call between them about 20 mins after kate raised the alarm on the 3rd May! Maybe the Gorrods are not involved and were doing something else, but their disappearance for 36 hours has never been explained and it is odd on a weeks package holiday they disappear for 36 hours. There are certainly strong links between Murat and Tanner

When first reading the facts of this scam, 2 things really stood out that both murat and tanner seemed to be at the centre of things in one way or another, I think to be in control of the situation from their respective POV's. What are the chances of Murat & Tanner being only meters away from each in the UK the week before the holiday and then the following week both their DNA is found in the same apartment in Portugal?

Its this relationship where I think a lot of big answers will be found



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Post by tigger on 25.12.11 9:35

Great post!
I've been thinking on similar lines ever since the topic on Burgau. I also think that at least two of the photographs were taken there, the ice-cream and the blue eye make-up one. Imo, if there are two one may suppose there are more taken at the same location and time.
It is even possible that the ice-cream one was taken much earlier, which implies an earlier visit to PdL, which in itself could explain the pool photo and would fit with the apparent age - in both she looks about 3 yrs. old.
I have a horrible feeling the the make-up photo could be the last one ever taken of Maddie.
As for another earlier visit, there's still the Zaival Beach at Easter, the impossibility of Donegal and Gerry's earlier visits to Portugal to play golf. DP had been to Portugal before. So I see no reason not to postulate a visit some 8 months before 5/07.

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by aquila on 25.12.11 10:07

Does a passport have a tracking system? a bar-coded passport or the newer type chipped passport...would it be possible to know where people travelled?

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by jd on 25.12.11 10:20

I don't think any of those disturbing photos were taken at Burgau anymore and taken (with some photoshopped) in the UK at the Rothley home. The 2 below were taken at the same time, Maddies dress and all of her features, looks, age etc to me are the exact same



The one below was definately taken in the UK and the background wall and skirting board is the exact one as in the above lying on the floor. there are others released with the same wall and skirting board taken from their home in the UK


I think in the moment of panic and having to get the body off the resort as quickly as possible, for the sake of the other kids and also MW/OC (which is another part) the only logical person that could in any way help them would be Murat, due to Tanners/Obrien relationship with him and also MW/OC relationship with him. Im in a rush so can't write out my explanation but in a nutshell the Burgau apartment seems to be the place to have temporarily stored the body imo

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by Guest on 25.12.11 10:28

@jd wrote:If it was the day of arrival or early hours of the 29th then I strongly suspect that the Burgau Somilar apartment was used to hide the body and possibly the Garrods helped transport it to a different location away from PDL. This was certainly something the PJ were looking into.

jd, you really cannot accuse anyone of transporting the body, with no proof whatsoever, to back it up. The PJ questioned many people, but they never accused the Gorrods of doing this. Can you please think about what you post in future and the implications it will have on this forum please.

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Re: Introduction and viewpoint.

Post by jd on 25.12.11 10:37

Stella wrote:
@jd wrote:If it was the day of arrival or early hours of the 29th then I strongly suspect that the Burgau Somilar apartment was used to hide the body and possibly the Garrods helped transport it to a different location away from PDL. This was certainly something the PJ were looking into.

jd, you really cannot accuse anyone of transporting the body, with no proof whatsoever, to back it up. The PJ questioned many people, but they never accused the Gorrods of doing this. Can you please think about what you post in future and the implications it will have on this forum please.

I did say possibly Stella which falls in line with many of the theories on here including many of yours, that some scenarios/theories are possible taken from facts. I know you have a thing about the Gorrods as every time I have ever mentioned them in the past you have always brought me up about them, so was fully expecting this reply from you tbh

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