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Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by figaro on 03.02.10 21:54

Autumn, I don't think the previous post mentions class or money.

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by twinkle on 03.02.10 22:06

No it certainly didn't figaro, thanks for understanding.

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by figaro on 03.02.10 22:08

I personally dont see the Mccanns as well to do anyway. They are from working class stock so I don't really see how it is relevant anyway.

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by twinkle on 03.02.10 22:14

Emotional neglect is as obvious as physical neglect if you are trained to deal with it.
I fail to see how anyone could possibly say the twins suffer from either without having any contact with these chidren.

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by figaro on 03.02.10 22:33

The staff at MW are trained what to look out for with regard to neglect and yet they didn't spot anything. Neither did anyone else either including the family GP. Social services didn't seem to think there was any neglect and neither did the prosecutor (cant remember if it was him)

I wonder then how it is that all these professionals missed this neglect that you talk of?

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by twinkle on 03.02.10 22:37

Are you talking to me figaro?

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by figaro on 03.02.10 22:46

@twinkle wrote:Are you talking to me figaro?

No, to autumn. Although it looks like I'm talking to myself........schizophrenia.
Who said that? laugh

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by twinkle on 03.02.10 22:52

Wasn't me, must be them people under the stairs. big grin

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by Kololi on 03.02.10 23:15

Hi

You have people under your stairs to Twinkle? I think most houses with children in have folks living under the stairs don't they????

Those children do not seem to have been neglected in the obvious sense. They were probably loved and cherished like most parents love and cherish their children.

Neglect, in the legal sense though does not always need to be something that occurs over a period of time such as the awful things that Twinkle encounters in her work. It is enough for a one off incident to be considered as neglectful if it can be shown that a duty of care was owed and that the duty of care was breached remembering of course that it must be in the public interest to impose the duty of care in the first place.

The builder who forgets to lay a damp proof course in your nice new extension won't do that to you on a regular basis. If your property suffers damage because of his lack of installing it, however, and the court can be shown that other builders would lay that damp proof course whilst building your extension then your builder will be likely to be found to be negligent.

Take care

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by Autumn on 04.02.10 0:08

@figaro wrote:The staff at MW are trained what to look out for with regard to neglect and yet they didn't spot anything. Neither did anyone else either including the family GP. Social services didn't seem to think there was any neglect and neither did the prosecutor (cant remember if it was him)

I wonder then how it is that all these professionals missed this neglect that you talk of?

Obviously you didnt see the documentary that raised serious concerns about the staff employed at MW resorts. As the British Police refused to pass on the McCanns' medical records to the PJ, we do not know if there were health issues. If Social Services were monitoring the family, it would be confidential and we would not be privy to that information.

I think you are a lone voice on this forum if you are seriously of the opinion that the neglect issues can be just swept under the carpet in a 'we have all done it' manner. Next you will be saying that what they did 'was well within the bounds of responsible parenting'.

No caring parent would have gone out drinking, leaving their very young children alone and frightened in the dark - to attempt to defend what they did reflects badly on yourself, figaro.

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by aliberte2 on 04.02.10 2:25

@Kololi wrote:Hi

You have people under your stairs to Twinkle? I think most houses with children in have folks living under the stairs don't they????

Those children do not seem to have been neglected in the obvious sense. They were probably loved and cherished like most parents love and cherish their children.

Neglect, in the legal sense though does not always need to be something that occurs over a period of time such as the awful things that Twinkle encounters in her work. It is enough for a one off incident to be considered as neglectful if it can be shown that a duty of care was owed and that the duty of care was breached remembering of course that it must be in the public interest to impose the duty of care in the first place.

The builder who forgets to lay a damp proof course in your nice new extension won't do that to you on a regular basis. If your property suffers damage because of his lack of installing it, however, and the court can be shown that other builders would lay that damp proof course whilst building your extension then your builder will be likely to be found to be negligent.

Take care

Legally, We think You're Right Kokoli but the Problem is, Legally, that the FACT that the McCanns Did the Checks Takes away the Mental State Required to Prove Neglect Legally. The Duty of Care Legally Wasn't Breached because the McCanns Did Not Form the Mens Rea Necessary to Breach the Duty of Care. They Knew they had a Duty of Care and Thought and Independent Witnesses Could Coorborate they Tried to Effecuate it in Some Way. This is Because Neglect is a Criminal Charge.

The Builder Example is Example of a Civil Charge. Negligence is for Civil Matters.

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by Kololi on 04.02.10 15:22

Hi Alberte
Please correct me if I am wrong but I am getting a little confused now
flower

How is this case a criminal case? There is no body. Isn't that why no criminal proceedings were brought against the McCanns?

Help me understand this please :)

Take care

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by figaro on 04.02.10 19:29

@Autumn wrote:
@figaro wrote:The staff at MW are trained what to look out for with regard to neglect and yet they didn't spot anything. Neither did anyone else either including the family GP. Social services didn't seem to think there was any neglect and neither did the prosecutor (cant remember if it was him)

I wonder then how it is that all these professionals missed this neglect that you talk of?

Obviously you didnt see the documentary that raised serious concerns about the staff employed at MW resorts. As the British Police refused to pass on the McCanns' medical records to the PJ, we do not know if there were health issues. If Social Services were monitoring the family, it would be confidential and we would not be privy to that information.

I think you are a lone voice on this forum if you are seriously of the opinion that the neglect issues can be just swept under the carpet in a 'we have all done it' manner. Next you will be saying that what they did 'was well within the bounds of responsible parenting'.

No caring parent would have gone out drinking, leaving their very young children alone and frightened in the dark - to attempt to defend what they did reflects badly on yourself, figaro.
My underline. Legally, there was no neglect. They were not prosecuted by the Portuguese nor Social Services in the U.K. You are discussing parenting style and not neglect.

Please, I do think its best that you respond to the post and not the poster. I am sure you are aware that your post is somewhat personal with regards to a post reflecting badly on me. That certainly doesnt bode well for a civilised discussion and I would hate to see this turn into personal attacks should it continue.

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by ufercoffy on 04.02.10 19:44

If leaving children and babies alone is not neglect then why are other parents in prison for having done the same?

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by vaguely1 on 04.02.10 19:46

@ufercoffy wrote:If leaving children and babies alone is not neglect then why are other parents in prison for having done the same?


I genuinely don't know of a similar case with imprisoned parents.

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by ufercoffy on 04.02.10 19:47

Google is good.

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by vaguely1 on 04.02.10 19:48

It's fantastic.

I genuinely don't know of a similar/comparable case with imprisoned parents.

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by Autumn on 04.02.10 19:51

Leaving their very young children alone and frightened, exposed to all manner of dangers, whilst they went out drinking with their mates is neglect- I do not understand how you can describe it as a 'parenting style', as if it is something that is acceptable and normal. Why they were not prosecuted is a mystery but, fact is, there are parents currently serving prison sentences for behaving in much the same way as the MCanns.

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by ufercoffy on 04.02.10 19:52

A MUM who left her two-year-old tot home alone so she could enjoy a weekend of partying, has been jailed today for at least six months.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1349609.ece


Baby taken into care after clubbing mum leaves tot home alone

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2008/11/28/baby-taken-into-care-after-clubbing-mum-leaves-tot-home-alone-115875-20930406/

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by figaro on 04.02.10 19:59

And just exactly how far away were those people from the children?

Its not black and white there are grey areas. Much in the same way as a parent putting the bin out and leaving their child alone when they did it....would you say that parent should have been prosecuted for neglect?

And as a previous poster said.....those cases cannot be compared...... they were quite a bit further away than the distance to the tapas.

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by vaguely1 on 04.02.10 20:01

@ufercoffy wrote:A MUM who left her two-year-old tot home alone so she could enjoy a weekend of partying, has been jailed today for at least six months.


Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1349609.ece#ixzz0ebBcMnHa


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1349609.ece


Kelly Tollerton, 23, was convicted by a jury of child neglect charges earlier
this month after a jury was told she abandoned the infant for three days at
her Lincoln home.

Sentencing her today at Lincoln Crown Court, Recorder William Harbage QC said: "It
defies belief that any mother can treat her child in that way. In my
opinion, you are not a fit mother."

Tollerton left the child penned into the kitchen of their flat, with one nappy
and just dirty laundry to sleep on, while she spent the weekend with her
boyfriend, the court was told.

The little boy was found "cold, hungry and distressed" in a dirty
vest and pants after he turned on a tap and flooded the kitchen, alerting
neighbours.

The abandonment in November 2006 came after a six-month period of neglect,
during which he was starved of emotional stimulation and kept in the "long-term
filth"
of the flat, Felicity Gerry, prosecuting, told the court today.






Baby taken into care after clubbing mum leaves tot home alone

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2008/11/28/baby-taken-into-care-after-clubbing-mum-leaves-tot-home-alone-115875-20930406/

A single mother left her ten-month-old baby home alone for five
hours while she went clubbing
, a court heard.


The 19-year-old left the helpless baby in its cot at 9pm and
returned home after a night out drinking at 2am.
Worried friends pleaded with her to return to her Chippenham
home, but the woman remained at a nightclub where she continued
drinking.

Following her arrest, she told officers that her elderly
neighbours were babysitting and even gave a false address.
But her
neglect was uncovered when police found the baby alone and crying at
the Wiltshire property on November 21 last year.





IMHO, to understand the legal differences in how they were dealt with, in comparison to the McCanns you need to accept there are differences in the events and the severity.

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by ufercoffy on 04.02.10 20:01

Obviously the tapas bar was too far aswell, otherwise Madeleine would be safe and well today.

Why the fuck do you try to defend these child neglectors?

Done it yourself have you?

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by vaguely1 on 04.02.10 20:03

@ufercoffy wrote:Obviously the tapas bar was too far aswell, otherwise Madeleine would be safe and well today.

Why the fuck do you try to defend these child neglectors?

Done it yourself have you?

Nobody has defended, just tried to explain why there wasn't a prosecution. DO you have to swear at people for trying to explain the reasons?

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by figaro on 04.02.10 20:07

@ufercoffy wrote:Obviously the tapas bar was too far aswell, otherwise Madeleine would be safe and well today.

Why the fuck do you try to defend these child neglectors?

Done it yourself have you?
I request that you address the post and not the poster.

Im sure all posters here don't want this to end in yet more insults. I certainly don't appreciate someone swearing at me.

Thanks in anticipation.

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Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

Post by Autumn on 04.02.10 20:09

Good point, ufercoffy - they would not be defending these neglectful excuses for parents if they didn't feel ' there but for the grace of god...'
Of course they have done it, thats why they persist in dressing up neglect as 'parenting style'.

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