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Where would a body be hidden?

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by sar on 22.09.14 12:28

@HelenMeg wrote:
@Monty Heck wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:Thread Question :  "Where would a body be hidden?"
In a fridge / freezer.
Carried there in a blue tennis bag in full sight by someone wearing tennis kit,
The said bag then replaced on the shelf, where it is photographed,
before being moved to the villa / new apartment,
but quickly starts to smell and is disposed of.
The spokes-slug then tries to lie his way out of it by denying the existence of the bag in the photo
But the dogs are not to be lied to
and detect the EXACT place on the shelf where the bag once lay.

Someone took the whole afternoon off tennis, with a ruptured Achilles Tendon, - which miraculously healed later allowing him to continue playing until the early evening.
Can't just remember who that was ! !
IMO this does look the most likely scenario and have posted here http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t9470p60-mccanns-frustrated-by-lack-of-joint-inquiry#242429
suggesting how someone with a bag may have found a means of getting some distance away from PDL and back fairly easily and without attracting notice.
I wonder whether GM walked to the location of the fridge / freezer in his tennis kit plus blue bag or not.  Noone would have batted an eyelid at the sight. As RM and GM both seemed to disappear that afternoon and both turned off their mobiles for a similar length of time - I think it may be quite likely that RM drove him somewhere - to the property with the freezer. When he dropped GM off later on after body disposal into the fridge / freezer then GM would just appear as if he'd been playing tennis.  I do think this is what happened but if RM drove him somewhere then I wonder whose car he used...
+1 HelenMeg, although it may never be proven and is of course speculation.....this may in my opinion only, be the last piece of the jigsaw puzzle.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Guest on 22.09.14 12:34

@HelenMeg wrote:
@Monty Heck wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:Thread Question :  "Where would a body be hidden?"
In a fridge / freezer.
Carried there in a blue tennis bag in full sight by someone wearing tennis kit,
The said bag then replaced on the shelf, where it is photographed,
before being moved to the villa / new apartment,
but quickly starts to smell and is disposed of.
The spokes-slug then tries to lie his way out of it by denying the existence of the bag in the photo
But the dogs are not to be lied to
and detect the EXACT place on the shelf where the bag once lay.

Someone took the whole afternoon off tennis, with a ruptured Achilles Tendon, - which miraculously healed later allowing him to continue playing until the early evening.
Can't just remember who that was ! !
IMO this does look the most likely scenario and have posted here http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t9470p60-mccanns-frustrated-by-lack-of-joint-inquiry#242429
suggesting how someone with a bag may have found a means of getting some distance away from PDL and back fairly easily and without attracting notice.
I wonder whether GM walked to the location of the fridge / freezer in his tennis kit plus blue bag or not.  Noone would have batted an eyelid at the sight. As RM and GM both seemed to disappear that afternoon and both turned off their mobiles for a similar length of time - I think it may be quite likely that RM drove him somewhere - to the property with the freezer. When he dropped GM off later on after body disposal into the fridge / freezer then GM would just appear as if he'd been playing tennis.  I do think this is what happened but if RM drove him somewhere then I wonder whose car he used...
A burnt out one perchance?

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Hicks on 22.09.14 14:54

I doubt very much that Madeleine's body was put in a freezer, and then moved weeks later. It would be too risky having the body around for that length of time.
This is what I think could have happened, Madeleine's body was disposed of during the evening of the third. Possibly Gerry and Murat planned the disposal during the afternoon of the 3rd (as you say HelenMeg about the phones)
Madeleine died in her pyjamas--if we are to believe Martin Smith--so we could say that the evening before was the time of death.

To my mind there is only one place that would hide the body sufficiently, and that is the sea. If taken out beyond the influences of the tides. There were dinghy's at the OC and boats, the ones Madeleine 'supposedly went on. Perhaps a friend of Murat's lent a boat to take the body way out to sea.
The McCann's seem very satisfied that Madeleine's body will never be found, on land there is always a possibility.

As for the hire car, could it have stored GM clothes and other items that became contaminated, thus contaminating the car? Perhaps these items were later transferred to Murat's hire car( the one he hired in a hurry) Murat hired the car from the 12th to the 15th May.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by aiyoyo on 22.09.14 14:59

Where is Madeleine? Is she off in a loving family like Gerry and Kate oft promote or is she buried in the desolate acres of Monte do Jose Mestre,  just west of Praia da Luz where Gerry’s cell phone pinged for three days straight and which criminal profiler Pat Brown believes is more likely? Or is Detective Amaral correct in believing she may have been spirited out of Portugal with help from others and be in an urn in the McCann’s home?  Was Madeleine the victim of a sex predator or sex ring or did she die accidentally while the McCanns were out for their adult fun? Or, as some suggest, is there an even more sinister explanation for the disappearance of Madeleine and the protection of the McCanns by those in high political places; child pornography, child sexual abuse, or political bribes and backroom deals? Or is there a Masonic conspiracy at play as certain bloggers insist is behind the bizarre behavior of the McCanns and their British political allies.

Extract from Pat Brown's blog.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by biggles on 22.09.14 15:12

@aiyoyo wrote:
Where is Madeleine? Is she off in a loving family like Gerry and Kate oft promote or is she buried in the desolate acres of Monte do Jose Mestre,  just west of Praia da Luz where Gerry’s cell phone pinged for three days straight and which criminal profiler Pat Brown believes is more likely? Or is Detective Amaral correct in believing she may have been spirited out of Portugal with help from others and be in an urn in the McCann’s home?  Was Madeleine the victim of a sex predator or sex ring or did she die accidentally while the McCanns were out for their adult fun? Or, as some suggest, is there an even more sinister explanation for the disappearance of Madeleine and the protection of the McCanns by those in high political places; child pornography, child sexual abuse, or political bribes and backroom deals? Or is there a Masonic conspiracy at play as certain bloggers insist is behind the bizarre behavior of the McCanns and their British political allies.

Extract from Pat Brown's blog.

That's my hunch also, although I do wonder what might be in (or under?) the extension on their house

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Trainer on 22.09.14 21:23

Just a few thoughts , involve a 3rd party to dispose of or hide anything is very risky , even more so if your going to "finger them to the police so I don't think Robert m is involved 

Why do we all keep talking about the trip to hulva?  Is it because there no other trips? 
So just suppose you wanted to hide something , you set off early in the morning 1/2 way there you jump out and go hiking the others on the trip carry on you are free to hike about and find a really good hiding spot that you and you only know where , the others collect you and either race back to the trip destination and take a couple of snaps then you go home , even your wife couldn't say where the hiding place was

I don't think helva is anything more than a red herring , more likely some other little discussed trip

Just an idea but

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by kimHager on 24.09.14 16:09

Is there a directory in the church of burials that took place from may to August 2007? Perhaps with some digging( no pun intended) something might stick out with the times the mccanns were hiding out in the church, the hire car and some more dna taken from any tombs or burial sites with the families permission. ..although i dont know if any families would do it or be ok with that kind of thing.However it seems to me they had to do something almost drastic and hid that body somewhere they knew no one could find her and if amaral thought it at some point then he must have reason to have thought she might be buried in Luz in anothers coffin.my opinion...

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by MRNOODLES on 24.09.14 16:46

@Hicks wrote:I doubt very much that Madeleine's body was put in a freezer, and then moved weeks later. It would be too risky having the body around for that length of time.
This is what I think could have happened, Madeleine's body was disposed of during the evening of the third. Possibly Gerry and Murat planned the disposal during the afternoon of the 3rd (as you say HelenMeg about the phones)
Madeleine died in her pyjamas--if we are to believe Martin Smith--so we could say that the evening before was the time of death.

To my mind there is only one place that would hide the body sufficiently, and that is the sea. If taken out beyond the influences of the tides. There were dinghy's at the OC and boats, the ones Madeleine 'supposedly went on. Perhaps a friend of Murat's lent a boat to take the body way out to sea.
The McCann's seem very satisfied that Madeleine's body will never be found, on land there is always a possibility.


As for the hire car, could it have stored GM clothes and other items that became contaminated, thus contaminating the car? Perhaps these items were later transferred to Murat's hire car( the one he hired in a hurry) Murat hired the car from the 12th to the 15th May.

IMO that is far too risky too. The chance of a fishing vessel dragging it up from the bottom would be too great. Whatever you say about the parents I just don't think they'd leave her abroad 'somewhere'. Again imo, M has been brought back and is in the UK...probably in an urn.

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Where would the body be hidden

Post by GrizzleyBear on 24.09.14 17:32

Again from the 3A days, I seem to remember a hedge being planted at Chateau R**thl*y, was it rosemary for remembrance?

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by roy rovers on 24.09.14 18:03

Repatriation of a body to the UK via Spain is certainly feasible IMO. Then buried 6 feet under concrete and confirmed to the T7 so that they need have no fears if they keep schtum.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Rogue-a-Tory on 24.09.14 21:07

@roy rovers wrote:Repatriation of a body to the UK via Spain is certainly feasible IMO. Then buried 6 feet under concrete and confirmed to the T7 so that they need have no fears if they keep schtum.

Across to Spain & a hand over somewhere in the Huelva vicinity? The deal being 'get the cadaver out of Spain & we'll do the rest' from friends in high places. Huelva's close to Gibraltar by road, but also has a port so a short sea journey straight to port. A favour for the Guarda Civil not to pry or diplomatic cover then the job's a good un, Portugal and PJ are none the wiser.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Hicks on 25.09.14 11:47

@MRNOODLES wrote:
@Hicks wrote:I doubt very much that Madeleine's body was put in a freezer, and then moved weeks later. It would be too risky having the body around for that length of time.
This is what I think could have happened, Madeleine's body was disposed of during the evening of the third. Possibly Gerry and Murat planned the disposal during the afternoon of the 3rd (as you say HelenMeg about the phones)
Madeleine died in her pyjamas--if we are to believe Martin Smith--so we could say that the evening before was the time of death.

To my mind there is only one place that would hide the body sufficiently, and that is the sea. If taken out beyond the influences of the tides. There were dinghy's at the OC and boats, the ones Madeleine 'supposedly went on. Perhaps a friend of Murat's lent a boat to take the body way out to sea.
The McCann's seem very satisfied that Madeleine's body will never be found, on land there is always a possibility.


As for the hire car, could it have stored GM clothes and other items that became contaminated, thus contaminating the car? Perhaps these items were later transferred to Murat's hire car( the one he hired in a hurry) Murat hired the car from the 12th to the 15th May.

IMO that is far too risky too.  The chance of a fishing vessel dragging it up from the bottom would be too great.  Whatever you say about the parents I just don't think they'd leave her abroad 'somewhere'.  Again imo, M has been brought back and is in the UK...probably in an urn.
Perhaps the body had been weighted down. I remember reading about the currents in that part of Portugal. At a certain point the water flows out to a whole big body of water. Wasn't a member of the Tapas 9 an oceanographer? 

Kate McCann had an emotional connection with the rocks. She refers to them as ' my rocks'. A reporter wrote how he came across Kate sat alone on the rocks staring out to sea. Apparently something she did frequently.

For my money, that's where her daughter lies.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by JR on 25.09.14 22:43

@Hicks wrote:
@MRNOODLES wrote:
@Hicks wrote:I doubt very much that Madeleine's body was put in a freezer, and then moved weeks later. It would be too risky having the body around for that length of time.
This is what I think could have happened, Madeleine's body was disposed of during the evening of the third. Possibly Gerry and Murat planned the disposal during the afternoon of the 3rd (as you say HelenMeg about the phones)
Madeleine died in her pyjamas--if we are to believe Martin Smith--so we could say that the evening before was the time of death.

To my mind there is only one place that would hide the body sufficiently, and that is the sea. If taken out beyond the influences of the tides. There were dinghy's at the OC and boats, the ones Madeleine 'supposedly went on. Perhaps a friend of Murat's lent a boat to take the body way out to sea.
The McCann's seem very satisfied that Madeleine's body will never be found, on land there is always a possibility.


As for the hire car, could it have stored GM clothes and other items that became contaminated, thus contaminating the car? Perhaps these items were later transferred to Murat's hire car( the one he hired in a hurry) Murat hired the car from the 12th to the 15th May.

IMO that is far too risky too.  The chance of a fishing vessel dragging it up from the bottom would be too great.  Whatever you say about the parents I just don't think they'd leave her abroad 'somewhere'.  Again imo, M has been brought back and is in the UK...probably in an urn.
Perhaps the body had been weighted down. I remember reading about the currents in that part of Portugal. At a certain point the water flows out to a whole big body of water. Wasn't a member of the Tapas 9 an oceanographer? 

Kate McCann had an emotional connection with the rocks. She refers to them as ' my rocks'. A reporter wrote how he came across Kate sat alone on the rocks staring out to sea. Apparently something she did frequently.

For my money, that's where her daughter lies.
According to the course the PJ from Portimao is now conducting the investigation, and considering the trail that the British police's Cocker Spaniel tracked along the sea shore, the individual would have descended to Praia da Luz, where he could have disposed of Maddie's body. Sol knows that the English team contacted Joao Alveirinho Dias, a professor at the University of Algarve and a specialist in oceanography, in order to collect information about the sea's dynamics and the beach area where everything may have happened. The investigator, who was not briefed about the context of the police inquiries, told Sol that he was consulted on "the sand movements, where they come from and where they go to".


Looking for Maddie's body, 04 August 2007
 
Looking for Maddie's body

 

By Felicia Cabrita and Margarida Davim
04 August 2007


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by j.rob on 19.01.15 14:58

@truthseeker wrote:
@happychick wrote:
@truthseeker wrote:Suppose the McCanns were involved  - do you think someone helped them in disposing of the body, or could they have done it alone? Of course she decides to ignore what the dogs alerted to, but still, there indeed was almost constant media presence around them. So how could they have transported and have disposed of the body without being noticed?



If the McCanns are capable of covering up the death of their first born and lie about it and then make money from it then I think they are evil enough and capable enough of using a stroller to transport the body. In the first image they use the twins in a dummy run, making sure they are covered up but with the feet showing, then Gerry gets a different stroller to transport the dead body.

I know it was sunny but who actually covers up their kids like that? It can't just be because they wanted to shield them from the sun because they were seen walking with the twins in the sun and they didn't even have hats on. Maybe it was just part of the plan to dispose of the body.
Does anybody know at what date photo B. was taken?

Haven't read the entire thread so not sure if there was any follow-up on this.

But I think that a large sports' bag played a part in concealing a small child. And a buggy. 

I had always been suspicious about Jez Wilkins and his pram wandering around at a crucial time that Thursday evening. And wondered what role, if any, Jez and his pram had to play in this macabre drama.

At first I thought that maybe Jez' pram (or buggy) was (or was supposed to be) some kind of 'getaway' vehicle. 

But the other explanation for TM heavily flagging up Jez and his pram at such a crucial place (right outside apartment 5A) at such a crucial time (just after Gerry's 9.05pm check, according to TM)  could be that it is a warning to the Jez camp from the TM camp. Something like: "You mention a pram (or even a blue bag perhaps?) and we'll mention a buggy.

And of course, talking of sports' bags, it is on record that Jez Wilkins, in one of his interviews or maybe one of his police statements, states that after the holiday, when cleaning a bag (??? - not emptying a bag, which is what you would expect but cleaning a bag) he finds Robert Murat's card in there, and wonders who it got there.

So how did Robert Murat's card get into one of the bags that Jez Wilkins took on holiday, then? If Jez didn't put it then who did, and why? And, even more to the point, why does Jez mention this at all? And how many people clean bags after their holidays when they have been on a family holiday? I would think this would be incredibly low down on the list of priorities after a week's holiday in the Algarve. It's not as though Jez just spent three months hiking in the Amazon and had to scrape leeches, black mud and the remains of scorpions off his ruck-sack.

So, as far as I am concerned, a sports bag that is not large enough to hide a tennis racquet small child and a pram/buggy were both used to conceal a small child. 

Hmmm. 

Also, I have never seen a black cover for a buggy before. It looks quite macabre, imo. Normally they are see-though. Also, what an unsuitable colour for a sunny country. Although the air temperature was not that high in that May (or maybe the photo was taken even later than May?) the sun, when out, is still hot as by then it is high in the sky so this would have been a real sun-trap. It's obviously quite a warm day in the photos above as Gerry and Kate and the photographers are wearing T-shirts. And shadows are cast so it would appear the sun is out.  

Why on earth would you put a black cover over a double buggy? The twins must have felt like they were being buried alive. How horrible.

Oops - just read the last comment in the quote above. Excellent point. 

God, the stupid little t**d is even carrying a sports bag and pushing a buggy that looks like a hearse.

Ye Gods. This whole thing is beyond sick.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by JohnyT on 19.01.15 16:29

I must admit that those images do look macabre. I've NEVER seen kid(s) covered up like that before! What's wrong with an umbrella that clamps on the side?
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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Guest on 19.01.15 16:41

Yes, or a cotton/muslin blanket.  They're rain covers and I don't see any rain.  Poor twins, it's a wonder they didn't suffocate.

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Where would a body be hidden?

Post by G-Unit on 19.01.15 17:27

A bundle was supposed to have been seen being taken to a boat by a jet skier at 7am on 4th May 2007. I don't know how true it is as it's not in the official files. 

Three people had no alibis on the afternoon of the 3rd; David Payne was windsurfing alone from 2pm till 4pm according to him, but his wife said he returned at 4.50pm. Russell O'Brien and Matthew Oldfield were out sailing a 16ft catamaran at roughly the same time, and they were at least a mile offshore. 

The jet skier was seen six miles from Praia da Luz. If the bundle was connected to this case and the parents were informed at 7am when they were out searching this could be a motive for deleting all mobile telephone records? Just my random thoughts only.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/couple-saw-bundle-taken-out-to-sea-near-where-madeleine-disappeared-but-police-ignored-them-6691235.html

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by aiyoyo on 19.01.15 21:13

Whereas before I refuse to believe murderer would dare to transport body 
home through the channel crossing, but after watching this crime documentary (link below), it is proof it's do-able even under the authority's nose.

Crime documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1uPG3yO6cc 
Polish man murdered his wife in Peterborough, UK, then drove her body in his van (using ferry) across the channel over 900 miles to Poland to dump her there.  Police were able to  vicariously trace his every step crime step through the Sat Nav retrieved from his van.

Now I dont doubt any more anything is possible.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Rogue-a-Tory on 19.01.15 21:47

@aiyoyo wrote:Whereas before I refuse to believe murderer would dare to transport body 
home through the channel crossing, but after watching this crime documentary (link below), it is proof it's do-able even under the authority's nose.

Crime documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1uPG3yO6cc 
Polish man murdered his wife in Peterborough, UK, then drove her body in his van (using ferry) across the channel over 900 miles to Poland to dump her there.  Police were able to  vicariously trace his every step crime step through the Sat Nav retrieved from his van.

Now I dont doubt any more anything is possible.
No need to do something so risky. How far is Huelva from Gibraltar, where the British secret service operates? A rendezvous in Spain outside the prying eyes of the PJ & Great-Uncle Gordon's boys act as click & collect agents.

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Keeping it cool...?

Post by missbeetle on 19.01.15 22:04

An idea from Kikoratton :


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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by j.rob on 20.01.15 0:46

@missbeetle wrote:An idea from Kikoratton :


That is interesting. It is reminiscent of Jane Tanner's description (as described in Kate's book) of the van that 
Jane Tanner was asked to get into by the PJ - just before Murat was made 'arguido' - when Tanner took part in what Kate described in her book as an 'amateurish identity parade' when she was asked to identify Robert Murat from a line-up. 

Jane Tanner and Kate McCann appear to go to great lengths to discredit this 'identity parade'.  According to Kate in her book, the Portuguese police were so mysteriously sinister about it all that Jane "was quite scared."

Russell walks her to the car park where the identity parade is to take place and apparently, according to Kate's book, they bump into Murat just as they are passing his mother's villa, Casa Liliana.  Murat speaks to Russ, so Kate tells us: "whom he must have seen around.......Jane, who had never met Murat, was not taking much notice."

Hmmmm....

But back to refrigerated vans: according to  Kate in her book, Jane Tanner - in terms of the 'identity parade' as outlined above - was asked to get into "the back of a van disguised to resemble a refrigerated delivery vehicle ('Like Sooty's van, she told us.)"

Really - like "Sooty's van" - when Jane Tanner had been allegedly 'so scared' to have the meeting with police that she had to go along with Russell. 

Well, I am sure she was scared. With good reason, imo.

Still, the 'Sooty van' rubbish is the usual TM device. The usual deflection. The usual minimization tactics. The usual twisting around to try to make it appear that what is really scaring them is just - nothing really. 

God, they are so pathetic.

IMO.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by j.rob on 20.01.15 14:23

Kate's description in her book of how she and Gerry reacted to the news that Robert Murat had been made an arguido is odd in my opinion.

On page 134 she writes (of the events of Monday 14th May): "We soon found out that Murat had been made an arguido. ............We met up with Alan Pike to talk through how we were feeling. Strange, was the short answer: for a brief period I found myself feeling positive, almost excited, that we might be nearer to finding Madeleine. That evaporated when we went round to see Fiona and David. Fiona told us she'd seen Robert Murat outside apartment 5A on the night of Madeleine's disappearance. Then I began to feel panicky. It had belatedly begun to dawn on me that it probably wouldn't be good news at all if someone living as close as Robert Murat was involved. As Fiona and David speculated I became more and more anxious. I didn't want to hear it. Within the space of a couple of hours I went from feeling cautiously optimistic to very, very low. Another long, dark night followed."

This is all quite odd. If you take their abduction story at face value (ahem!) then surely if police are interviewing a local man it indicates that police could be closing in on who took Madeleine, why and where she might be. And, as Kate at first writes: ".....we might be nearer to finding Madeleine." And the fact that the man is so local means that the net is potentially closing in very locally. Which surely is better news than police following up a lead in some far-flung country thousands of miles away? It could mean that Madeleine is being held not far away. Or at least it might mean that a local person knows where she is being hidden. 

So I can understand -if you are following the 'abduction' script Kate writing that she was feeling positive (although, realistically of course, given that over 2 weeks have passed since Madeleine's alleged 'abduction', you would expect very mixed feelings as Madeleine could, by this stage, be dead.)

"Almost excited" is a little unexpected. Surely there would be a roller-coaster of emotions? But, whatever the truth of how Kate was feeling does this indicate that at this stage Kate still does not know exactly what has become of Madeleine? Is she genuine when she writes: " might be nearer to finding Madeleine?" I just don't know. How much is she lying? How much is delusion? What can be read between the lines?

The next couple of sentences are really strange. Fiona Payne allegedly tells Kate and Gerry that she saw Murat outside apartment 5A on the evening of Madeleine's disappearance. This piece of information then has a dramatic effect on Kate, so she tells us. It makes her panicky. And she believes it probably wouldn't be good news at all if someone living as close as Murat was involved.

Why? What does she mean? What one assumes she means, in the context of a mother supposedly looking for her abducted child and therefore following 'the script', is that the outcome (for Madeleine) is likely to be worse if the potential abductor lives so close. But why? What is the logic behind this? As outlined above surely if a local man is involved then it is less complicated in terms of questioning etc? Madeleine might be found nearby even?

But Kate uses the phrase "wouldn't be good news". She does not actually mention Madeleine at all in this phrase. So I suspect what she means by " not good news" is it wouldn't be good news at all for her (or Gerry?) if someone living as close as Murat was involved. 

"As Fiona and David speculated I became more and more anxious. I didn't want to hear it."

Hear what? What were the Paynes talking about, I wonder? Why did Kate "not want to hear it?" What about Gerry? Presumably the Paynes want Kate to hear it, otherwise they wouldn't be saying it in front of her? And I presume Gerry wanted Kate to hear it too, otherwise he would have remonstrated to the Paynes and/or taken Kate out of the room.

The effect on Kate on hearing things that she did not want is that it make her feel very, very low. And what about Gerry? How was he reacting to all this I wonder? Kate does not say. But I would wager that he is not reacting in the same manner as Kate. 

Sounds to me like Kate is being 'groomed' her. The Paynes (and Gerry?) are deliberately getting her to hear things that she would rather not.

Is Gerry 'in on the pact' with David Payne (and Fiona?) and Kate is not? That is how it looks to me.

A few pages on Kate (still the same eventful day) writes: "Not knowing where your child is, how your child is, who she's with or indeed whether you will ever see her again is a glimpse of hell. Not knowing, either, about anything that is (or worse, isn't) being done to find her, or whether those looking for her are privy to more information about her circumstances than you are, only piles on the agony."

It really does seem to me that Kate at this stage is not 'in the picture' in terms of what has happened to Madeleine and how she is. And she appears to have an awareness that there are others who know more than she does about what happened to Madeleine. 

Still, 'the wider agenda' nevertheless kicked in for the gruesome twosome and by the end of June 2007 Kate and Gerry are, indeed, milking the Ambassadors for Missing Children cash cow.

Indeed, at the end of June, following his hour conversation on the phone to Ernie Allen, CEO of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in the USA, Kate writes in her book that she finds Gerry "almost radiant and brimming with optimism. He was already planning to fly out to Washington, DC at the earliest opportunity to find out more about the work of NCMEC for himself."

This dubious organisation was established in 1984 after the murder of six-year old Adam Walsh, son of John and Reve Walsh. Adam was allegedly abducted from a shopping mall he had allegedly been taken to by his mother. She claims that she left him unattended for seven minutes. 

Hmmm. 

And, it would seem, the blame went onto the dead guy.

Handy that.

So - this whole McScam is all about covering up child abuse then, is it?

A theory. Hopefully wrong.


http://sexgreedpolitics.blogspot.co.uk/2009/12/adam-walsh-blame-it-on-dead-guy.html

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by secrets and lies on 20.01.15 20:24

Very interesting thoughts J.Rob.

In my heart I have always felt that the covering up of some form of child abuse, most likely sexual, lies at the heart of this strange and complex case.

Reading through your post am I correct in thinking you speculate that Kate might genuinely have thought, at the very outset, that her daughter had genuinely been abducted? That whatever was done to, or happened to Madeleine to cause her death (if that is what happened) was unknown to Kate?

Or that Kate was privy to and perhaps even present at the time of death? But that Maddie's remains were either moved/stolen by someone else without Kate's knowledge and she is, during that excerpt in her book, reflecting on actual real events, thoughts, feelings. If so, I get the same impression. She is either in a total fantasy or there is some actual truthful information presented in that passage. 

This makes a lot of sense. Perhaps whomever else was involved felt that Kate had to be kept out of the loop for a time, at least until some "immunity" was guaranteed to her and GM. She seems like a pretty mentally and emotionally fragile individual with a very big temper. Perhaps it had necessary to keep her in the dark in case she said the wrong thing at the wrong time and hung everyone else involved. What she didn't know she could not accidentally reveal. So perhaps the cry of "they've taken her" makes perfect sense.

I don't think it's feasible that she was not somehow involved herself initially. But perhaps later facts and details of "the clean-up operation and removal" had to have been withheld from her given her state of mind.

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Where would a body be hidden?

Post by G-Unit on 20.01.15 21:25

Here is an interesting quote from the book;
p.219
Did they really believe that a dog could smell the ‘odour of death’ three months later from a
body that had been removed so swiftly? They were adding two and two and coming up with
ten. 

Why does she say that? Firstly she seems to be accepting there was a body, secondly she says it was removed so swiftly! Am I taking this quote out of context I wonder?

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Hobs on 20.01.15 22:10

"Not knowing where your child is, how your child is, who she's with or indeed whether you will ever see her again is a glimpse of hell. Not knowing, either, about anything that is (or worse, isn't) being done to find her, or whether those looking for her are privy to more information about her circumstances than you are, only piles on the agony."

Follow the pronouns.

With kate there is very little i, me or my, all first person singular pronouns.
Instead we see 3rd person distancing pronouns which is unexpected.

Why does kate need to distance herself from Maddie?
Where is the expected maternal bond between a mom and her child?
Given she was IVF like the twins, why the distancing since clearly they wanted a child?

Is Maddie perhaps not Gerry's bio child?
Are the twins bio children of theirs?

Is it because Maddie wasn't perfect, only "almost perfect"
Is it because she was a handful, demanding, screaming, having a temper, behaving as a normal toddler?
Is it because she had health issues hence the withholding of her medical records?

Was Maddie the scapegoat for all the marital problems?
Remember she was farmed off to stay with family the twins first christmas.
They admitted the twins didn't have much to do with Maddie, which, given they all lived (allegedly) in the same house  is unexpected unless she was kept apart from them.
We also have kate refusing to answer questions about her wanting o foster Maddie out.

We know the marriage was in trouble and they had financial problems.
We all saw how kate postively glowed with health once Maddie was gone, was this because a weight had been lifted off her shoulders?
The problem no longer existed and all would be well ( large fund, no Maddie and instant celebrity)
Did they think a few weeks in the press and it would die down to some extent, the media being controlled by themselves and perhaps a nice cosy job with some charity or maybe politics.
Did she think answer a few questions and the police would move onto other possible suspects as they were drs and would never harm their children?

We saw how years down the line as the public doubted their version of events, how the police weren't keeping them in the loop regarding the investigation and their litigation of various people was going bosoms up and going to cost them a fortune.
We saw kate looking as she should have looked the moment Maddie was 'abducted'

Did she really think no Maddie meant a happy life, no more problems?
Did she really think LE would let the case get cold and give up?
Did she really think gerry would back away from the limelight?
Adead Maddie wasn't a promise of a better life as she hoped, it meant tht even after death, Maddie was still the millstone round her neck, and, fobbing her off to a family member is no longer an option.

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