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Where would a body be hidden?

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Guest on 29.10.11 10:01

Yes, it makes you wonder what ethics these papers have when they run with these stories.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by truthseeker on 17.11.11 19:58

@PeterMac wrote:It seems to me that there are various strands of what we can loosely call 'evidence' which any theory MUST include.
Blood
Cadaverine
fingerprints
phone ‘pings’
mileage on hire car
crying for hours
subsequent actions by all members of the group


And a whole list of things which have been offered as 'evidence' which we can ignore
shutters
window
whoosh of curtains
bundleman with blanket
bundleman with small girl
pyjamas white or pink
time-line version 1
time-line version 2
chloroform
and so on


I have a problem with introducing yet another element, namely a boat, as this involves an owner, and more time than we have available.
I find the phrase 'no stone unturned' strangely compelling, and the incessant references to Rocha Negra - no fewer than 7 times in the book, plus photo - is something that Pat Brown focussed on.
If you look on maps.google or google earth you can see quite a lot of detail of that area.
PeterMac,

Suppose the McCanns were involved - do you think someone helped them in disposing of the body, or could they have done it alone?
In her book, Kate argues (p. 266):
"Since 4 May, practically every step we'd taken outside our Mark Warner apartment or the villa had been followed on television by the entire world. How could we possibly have secretly hidden our daughter's body, in such safe place that it hadn't been discovered, and then removed it (if our hiding place was that good, I wonder why we would have bothered), transported it in our Renault scenic (which we hadn't hired until 27 May) and buried her elsewhere - all without media stalkers ever noticing a thing? It simply wasn't feasible."
Of course she decides to ignore what the dogs alerted to, but still, there indeed was almost constant media presence around them. So how could they have transported and have disposed of the body without being noticed?
What 'open time windows' exist that would have provided an opportunity for them?
On May 31, they flew to Spain from Lisbon airport. Did they drive to Lisbon airport in the Renault, and if yes, were they alone?
If the body was refrigerated (Amaral says the body fluids point to this scenario) - where was the most likely place for storage?

Re the "crying for hours" - are you referring to Madeleine's crying on the night of Wednesday May 2, or to Kate's frequent mentioning of her own crying in her book? I often had the impression that Kate was grieving for a dead child ...
The frequent reference to the Rocha Negra struck me as odd too.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by happychick on 17.11.11 20:57

@truthseeker wrote:Suppose the McCanns were involved - do you think someone helped them in disposing of the body, or could they have done it alone? Of course she decides to ignore what the dogs alerted to, but still, there indeed was almost constant media presence around them. So how could they have transported and have disposed of the body without being noticed?



If the McCanns are capable of covering up the death of their first born and lie about it and then make money from it then I think they are evil enough and capable enough of using a stroller to transport the body. In the first image they use the twins in a dummy run, making sure they are covered up but with the feet showing, then Gerry gets a different stroller to transport the dead body.

I know it was sunny but who actually covers up their kids like that? It can't just be because they wanted to shield them from the sun because they were seen walking with the twins in the sun and they didn't even have hats on. Maybe it was just part of the plan to dispose of the body.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Tinkerbell81 on 17.11.11 22:17


Thank you so much for this, Daisy. So true. It reminds me again of
the book I read recently - 'Sara Payne: A Mother's Story'. Now that
is an honest book. It was mentioned how for months after poor Sarah was
taken the whole family very often wouldn't get out of bed. The other
children stayed off school. When the adults were up they were very often
drinking heavily to blot out the pain. I know people do react
differently, but nothing the McCann's do seems remotely believable to
me. It's like they know how they 'should' behave, but they just can't do
it authentically. So cold and robotic.

Same goes for Kevin Wells' book Goodbye dearest Holly btw (off topic slightly)

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 18.11.11 7:40

@Tinkerbell81 wrote:

Thank you so much for this, Daisy. So true. It reminds me again of
the book I read recently - 'Sara Payne: A Mother's Story'. Now that
is an honest book. It was mentioned how for months after poor Sarah was
taken the whole family very often wouldn't get out of bed. The other
children stayed off school. When the adults were up they were very often
drinking heavily to blot out the pain. I know people do react
differently, but nothing the McCann's do seems remotely believable to
me. It's like they know how they 'should' behave, but they just can't do
it authentically. So cold and robotic.

Same goes for Kevin Wells' book Goodbye dearest Holly btw (off topic slightly)
Absolutely, Tinkerbell81. I have also read this book, absolutely heart-rending. I mentioned Sara Payne as a 'mothers voice' but tbh the McCanns could learn much from these parents. Dignified grief, no whoring to the media for self-gain and self-preservation and NOW they have the gall to jump on the Leveson enquiry! Unbelievable - so Kate felt 'mentally raped' that a paper printed her diary 'without her permission and she has no idea where they got it from' (bet she does!) They truly make me want to vomit. My TV screen was in grave danger when they popped up in the middle of a piece on Milly Dowler...

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Truth is artless and innocent - like the eloquence of nature, it is clothed with simplicity and easy persuasion; always open to investigation and analysis, it seeks exposure because it fears not detection.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by jd on 18.11.11 8:56

@rainbow-fairy wrote:They truly make me want to vomit. ...

You are not alone rainbow-fairy!

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The effect of the McCanns

Post by Marian on 18.11.11 9:15

Count me in to the "they make me sick" tally! The way they - particularly Kate - associate themselves with genuine cases of abduction, or even unrelated issues like teenage victims of knife crime, makes me cringe. Rainbow-Fairy, if you haven't seen this clip before, try not to smash anything!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13745838
There is a longer version of this speech which I can't find at the moment where Kate says that relatives of missing persons are "being left in the dark" without help - how she managed to say that with a straight face I don't know.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Maive on 23.11.11 20:42

Hi everybody! Very interesting discussion here!

Regarding the place where Madeleine is right now, I don't know. I think she is still in Portugal or in Huelva. Rothley seems a little bit hard to consider, even though I understand that it's probably the safer place to burry her.

I was thinking since a long time where was Madeleine during those 3 weeks, before she was moved to her final resting place. (I believe that her body was in that car, I 100% trust the dogs. No doubt about that.)

For me, I think that Madeleine could have been in the sea during those 3 weeks (or more). Not far from the coast, much closer to the beach. In a small spot, maybe between rocks, at the bottom of the cliffs. I think she could have been in the tennis bag, which was in the water, weighted by rocks to prevent it from moving. I believe that this theory can explain why there was body fluids diluted with water in the boot of the car. Usually people believe that the body was frozen but do you think that my theory could be plausible?

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by listener on 24.11.11 0:07

Having stayed in that area a few times and at different times of the year, I came to realize that Luz has developed into a resort where a vast amount of flats/properties are vacant at certain times of the year. I believe the months of April and May would fall into that categary. A large proportion of of these empty properties have English owners - and didn't RM run some kind of property renting business? Wheather he was involved or not, in the concealment, I firmly believe (at present!) she was stored in a freezer, in one of the hundreds of vacant appartments.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by aiyoyo on 24.11.11 10:11

@Maive wrote:Hi everybody! Very interesting discussion here!

Regarding the place where Madeleine is right now, I don't know. I think she is still in Portugal or in Huelva. Rothley seems a little bit hard to consider, even though I understand that it's probably the safer place to burry her.

I was thinking since a long time where was Madeleine during those 3 weeks, before she was moved to her final resting place. (I believe that her body was in that car, I 100% trust the dogs. No doubt about that.)

For me, I think that Madeleine could have been in the sea during those 3 weeks (or more). Not far from the coast, much closer to the beach. In a small spot, maybe between rocks, at the bottom of the cliffs. I think she could have been in the tennis bag, which was in the water, weighted by rocks to prevent it from moving. I believe that this theory can explain why there was body fluids diluted with water in the boot of the car. Usually people believe that the body was frozen but do you think that my theory could be plausible?

If the sea water is cold enough at that time of the year, yes, she could have been hidden in water along coastal area along their jogging track before been removed for final disposal after they'd sussed out final resting place.
Yes I suppose in that circumstances the cold sea water is enough to help preserve a rigor mortis body and slow down decomposition, but it would have to be in a relatively shallow area for them to recover it later. So maybe she was hidden in a ditch puddle between rocks along the cliff.
Did gerry and or kate keep their jogging routine on 2nd May evening or even 3rd May morning - anyone ?
Didn't kate try to tell police officer (during gerry's absence) about her dream that Maddie's body was on a cliff?

Nowhere in the files did the police posit Maddie's body was in the hired car.
There are other explanations for dog's reaction ie things in direct contact with Maddie's cadaver were transported.
Take pants of ganga or key fob for example - dog reacted because of having them been in direct contact with the cadaver.

It was only the mccanns who assumed the police believed that - they want people to think Police are mad to even expect people to believe the ridiculous notion that they could possibly hide a dead Maddie for weeks before transporting her in a car hired weeks later. I remember reading that Police believed things in direct contact with Maddie were transported in the hired car and not necessarily Maddie's body.
Either the mccanns are stupid to believe the Police believed that (maddie body was transported in the car) which I don't believe so - they knew very well the Police didn't believe that, but they wanted the people to think that anyway because its to their advantage to do so.

I won't be surprised the car was hired deliberately to carry away things for dumping far away from crime scene.







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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by truthseeker on 24.11.11 21:34

@happychick wrote:
@truthseeker wrote:Suppose the McCanns were involved - do you think someone helped them in disposing of the body, or could they have done it alone? Of course she decides to ignore what the dogs alerted to, but still, there indeed was almost constant media presence around them. So how could they have transported and have disposed of the body without being noticed?



If the McCanns are capable of covering up the death of their first born and lie about it and then make money from it then I think they are evil enough and capable enough of using a stroller to transport the body. In the first image they use the twins in a dummy run, making sure they are covered up but with the feet showing, then Gerry gets a different stroller to transport the dead body.

I know it was sunny but who actually covers up their kids like that? It can't just be because they wanted to shield them from the sun because they were seen walking with the twins in the sun and they didn't even have hats on. Maybe it was just part of the plan to dispose of the body.
Does anybody know at what date photo B. was taken?

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by tigger on 25.11.11 10:12

@listener wrote:Having stayed in that area a few times and at different times of the year, I came to realize that Luz has developed into a resort where a vast amount of flats/properties are vacant at certain times of the year. I believe the months of April and May would fall into that categary. A large proportion of of these empty properties have English owners - and didn't RM run some kind of property renting business? Wheather he was involved or not, in the concealment, I firmly believe (at present!) she was stored in a freezer, in one of the hundreds of vacant appartments.



This is exactly what I think. ck of DNA in 5a, the lack of pretty well everything pointing to full time occupation of a family with three children. I think there was another flat available for use which wasn't occupied by any of the T7.

Although I'm still not happy about the owner of 5a, Mrs. Ruth McCann. The coincidence was brushed out rather quickly, without further details, just someone who happened to have the same name, from Liverpool.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Angelique on 25.11.11 17:40

"Since 4 May, practically every step we'd taken outside our Mark Warner apartment or the villa had been followed on television by the entire world. How could we possibly have secretly hidden our daughter's body, in such safe place that it hadn't been discovered, and then removed it (if our hiding place was that good, I wonder why we would have bothered), transported it in our Renault scenic (which we hadn't hired until 27 May) and buried her elsewhere - all without media stalkers ever noticing a thing? It simply wasn't feasible."

I think since Kate states the above knowing that if this is what some people believe she can truthfully say it couldn't happen. I think it was already decided 3/4th May where, when and how. It may be Huelva for the present but I think it would be in the place, where-ever that is, that the McCanns will eventually end up. It has been suggested that Portugal was where they intended to stay long term, but this is not an option now. So we should try and think like them, where would they eventually want to be. Because that will be where Madeleine is.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by truthseeker on 28.11.11 21:51

@Angelique wrote:"Since 4 May, practically every step we'd taken outside our Mark Warner apartment or the villa had been followed on television by the entire world. How could we possibly have secretly hidden our daughter's body, in such safe place that it hadn't been discovered, and then removed it (if our hiding place was that good, I wonder why we would have bothered), transported it in our Renault scenic (which we hadn't hired until 27 May) and buried her elsewhere - all without media stalkers ever noticing a thing? It simply wasn't feasible."

I think since Kate states the above knowing that if this is what some people believe she can truthfully say it couldn't happen. I think it was already decided 3/4th May where, when and how. It may be Huelva for the present but I think it would be in the place, where-ever that is, that the McCanns will eventually end up. It has been suggested that Portugal was where they intended to stay long term, but this is not an option now. So we should try and think like them, where would they eventually want to be. Because that will be where Madeleine is.
When I read in Kate's book that she has returned quite a few times to Praia da Luz, the first thought I had was "She wants to be where Madeleine is".

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Where Would Body be Hidden.

Post by sijm on 28.11.11 22:32

Hello Everone I am new , so please be gentle.

Have been trawling through the fourms and hit on this one.

Have you heard somone on Twitter claims to have an image of a what looks like remains

of a human being found in a rock cavern or den on praia da luz beach.

Don't know if it's reliable because my daughter found it on a Twitter site.

.

.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by littlepixie on 28.11.11 22:45

FWIW, I am also one of those who believes her body was removed and transported in the boot of the Scenic. I believe that her first resting/hiding place was considered "adequate" and that if she had been found, any injuries on her body would have been blamed on the paedophile abductor.

Once Gerry McCann had driven past Apartment 5a (as the EVRD and CSI dogs were searching it) he knew that there was a possibility he could be linked to whatever might be found in there and so a few days later they decided to move her.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by bristow on 28.11.11 22:54

@sijm wrote:Hello Everone I am new , so please be gentle.

Have been trawling through the fourms and hit on this one.

Have you heard somone on Twitter claims to have an image of a what looks like remains

of a human being found in a rock cavern or den on praia da luz beach.

Don't know if it's reliable because my daughter found it on a Twitter site.

.

.

Hello and welcome.

Very interesting.

Do you have a link to that Twitter page please?

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Ollie on 28.11.11 23:50

sijm didn't put up a link...?????.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by littlepixie on 29.11.11 0:19

There is someone on twitter who claims that pictures will be posted of an "image" of a body dressed in white found in a rocky tomb on Luz beach. This person is also slagging off PatBrown and all her lawyers, so I take it with a pinch of salt. Sounds like a WUM.
https://twitter.com/#!/search/realtime/oddityfinder



oddityfinder
joanhudson100

The sat/image of a human
form in Luz beach tomb is what it is, A genuine image of al human form,
no sugestion of a real person can be made

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Guest on 29.11.11 8:59

I've heard about this somewhere else (not Twitter) and yes I agree that it sounds like a hoax. I wonder if it's the work of the same person who has posted here under at least two different names, promising to download all manner of interesting evidence but never does.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Gillyspot on 29.11.11 9:54

FWIW I am blocked by this twitter user despite never having any type of conversation on there.

Personally I think it is a windup. They retweet the same things over and over again & don't respond to questions from other users.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by puzzled on 29.11.11 11:39

@littlepixie wrote:There is someone on twitter who claims that pictures will be posted of an "image" of a body dressed in white found in a rocky tomb on Luz beach. This person is also slagging off PatBrown and all her lawyers, so I take it with a pinch of salt.

Didn't they take the dogs to the beach, and got no alerts?

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Where Would a Body be Hidden

Post by sijm on 29.11.11 13:14

Thank you for that Littlepixie.

I will tell my daughter about this Twitter and not to take any notice

of him.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by truthseeker on 29.11.11 20:58

@puzzled wrote:
Didn't they take the dogs to the beach, and got no alerts?
This would interest me too.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by aiyoyo on 30.11.11 16:51

@truthseeker wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:It seems to me that there are various strands of what we can loosely call 'evidence' which any theory MUST include.
Blood
Cadaverine
fingerprints
phone ‘pings’
mileage on hire car
crying for hours
subsequent actions by all members of the group


And a whole list of things which have been offered as 'evidence' which we can ignore
shutters
window
whoosh of curtains
bundleman with blanket
bundleman with small girl
pyjamas white or pink
time-line version 1
time-line version 2
chloroform
and so on


I have a problem with introducing yet another element, namely a boat, as this involves an owner, and more time than we have available.
I find the phrase 'no stone unturned' strangely compelling, and the incessant references to Rocha Negra - no fewer than 7 times in the book, plus photo - is something that Pat Brown focussed on.
If you look on maps.google or google earth you can see quite a lot of detail of that area.
PeterMac,

Suppose the McCanns were involved - do you think someone helped them in disposing of the body, or could they have done it alone?
In her book, Kate argues (p. 266):
"Since 4 May, practically every step we'd taken outside our Mark Warner apartment or the villa had been followed on television by the entire world. How could we possibly have secretly hidden our daughter's body, in such safe place that it hadn't been discovered, and then removed it (if our hiding place was that good, I wonder why we would have bothered), transported it in our Renault scenic (which we hadn't hired until 27 May) and buried her elsewhere - all without media stalkers ever noticing a thing? It simply wasn't feasible."
Of course she decides to ignore what the dogs alerted to, but still, there indeed was almost constant media presence around them. So how could they have transported and have disposed of the body without being noticed?
What 'open time windows' exist that would have provided an opportunity for them?
On May 31, they flew to Spain from Lisbon airport. Did they drive to Lisbon airport in the Renault, and if yes, were they alone?
If the body was refrigerated (Amaral says the body fluids point to this scenario) - where was the most likely place for storage?

I would take with a large bucket of salt kate's 'truthful' account. Most of the time they might have been watched but not to the extent kate would like people to believe.

For example we know they managed to slip off to Huelva without detection from press or police, and even managed to stay off the radar for 2 hours during that journey.

If the body h been inside the renault my belief is it would have been earlier than 3rd Aug during the first few days of hire.
They had maddie's godfather, Jon corner, with them on their 3rd Aug trip to Huelva. I seriously cant see them involving JC in a disposal job at that late stage where decomposition had well set in and where unearthing her from one place to get to another would be gruesomely messy, not forgetting making him accessory. I doubt even best mate can stomach that or agree to participate in that.
Helping them keep a secret is bad enough, but helping them dispose....hmmm...I find that hard to stomach; so I find it hard to believe they would stupidly involve him that way.

My personal belief is : none of their friend would agree to help them in the disposal nor did they ask their friends to help in that awful job.
At most gerry and kate were involved in the second instance disposal, gerry in the first instance; which would explain cadaver odour on kate's pants and the key fob.

Besides if a highly decomposed body had been in the renault on 3rd Aug the cadaver stench would have stank the whole resort out.
A fairly reasonably well preserved body say in cave or cold sea water and moved relatively close to PMI is more likely to be the scenario.
all my opinion of course. I have no doubt her body, or at least things in contact with the body, maybe bag or some kind of enveloping blanket or container used to contain her body with the body fluid still in it have been in the renault.
It's very likely both were in the car. Maddie covered up in a casing or bag would explain why very little forensics were left behind, but inevitable decomposition fluid seepage through the casing may be the reason for the miniscule forensics collected. Bodily fluid even in tiny amount can seep and sink further below than visible to the naked eyes hence escaping detection in the cleaning job.



Re the "crying for hours" - are you referring to Madeleine's crying on the night of Wednesday May 2, or to Kate's frequent mentioning of her own crying in her book? I often had the impression that Kate was grieving for a dead child ...
The frequent reference to the Rocha Negra struck me as odd too.

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