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Sofa + accident = death, really?

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 11:03

@PeterMac wrote:Indeed not. Thanks for that. We must not try to alter the facts to fit a theory.
SO...
Stands up, wipes blood on sofa from small cut to head.
Collapses behind sofa
Coma
Dies
Parents return, do NOT check children
Go to bed
Wake, check children - M missing - ( HENCE the bed was not slept in. Hence also the "protesting too much" that KM slept in the children's room that night.)
Find her dead and cold behind sofa

They know that time of death will show previous evening and so they panic.
How is this even possible, when Madeleine was shown to be at creche at 17.30 on the 3rd?

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 11:23

Stella wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:Indeed not. Thanks for that. We must not try to alter the facts to fit a theory.
SO...
Stands up, wipes blood on sofa from small cut to head.
Collapses behind sofa
Coma
Dies
Parents return, do NOT check children
Go to bed
Wake, check children - M missing - ( HENCE the bed was not slept in. Hence also the "protesting too much" that KM slept in the children's room that night.)
Find her dead and cold behind sofa

They know that time of death will show previous evening and so they panic.
How is this even possible, when Madeleine was shown to be at creche at 17.30 on the 3rd?

If that is true she was there the 3 ? Many here believe she died before that(start of holliday, some even before that)..
I think the answer is somewhat simple, since the lie are so complicated. I must say im leaning more toward the accidently died theory.. Planing it in advance and so on, I dont know, I think thats to wild and to complicated to accomplich. There has to be a lot of people involved if it was pre planed.(planned?) (my English is soooo good yes nah )
All I know is that something is not right about this case...

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Tinkerbell81 on 19.10.11 12:50

Im still leaning towards Madeleine getting caught up in a fight between her parents, taking Kates bruises into account. Could (probably an off the wall theory) Madeleine have been hiding from her parents' fight behind the sofa, one of them is thrown on the sofa, sofa is shoved backwards by the movement, Maddie injures her head on the wall behind it? Its just a thought like many others...

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by PeterMac on 19.10.11 12:56

Stella wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:Not so fast !

PeterMac, thank you, this is exactly what is needed, a Police perspective, to help all of us try to understand what is being suggested may have happened.

Evening of 1st.
Climbs onto sofa to look out of window for missing parents
But this is only possible if all the children were really being left on their own. IF, it can be proven that they never were, this theory goes out the window straight away.
Quote so. If that can be proved then the whole thing needs looking at in the light of the new evidence.

Falls and bangs back of head on floor, making small cut, but nothing more externally visible.
No necessarily unconscious, but might have been and then regained consciousness in a few minutes.
Small spots of blood on floor.
Struggles to strand up in the gap between sofa and wall.
I'm still struggling to accept that the sofa was so far forward, that a gap would have been big enough for a child to fall behind it. The room layout would have looked really stupid. A gap just big enough to close the curtains is all that was needed, by taking more space for no other reason, would have robbed that area of precious living space.
A gap big enough to allow the curtains to hang properly and easy to open and close would be about a span, say 8", or 20 cm. A child falling into the gap could slip through, or the weight might push the sofa forwards the extra inches to allow the fall.
Back of head wipes against sofa at 70-80 cm. ( Remember Madeleine was said to be 90cm tall, so this is ENTIRELY consistent. )
How do you explain the stain in the lower right hand corner also, 2-3 foot away? and how did she get out of that space on her own?
Scrabbling around on the floor, trying to stand up, manages to, then sinks down again as she loses consciousness.

Cries a lot, heard and reported by Mrs Fenn.
Parents eventually return.
Bleeding now long since stopped, Madeline tired and emotional and just wanting to be cuddled.
Calpol
Bed
Next morning (2nd) complains of headache
But the Nanny never talks of dried blood, cuts or bump, lethargy or any other condition that would have been noticed.
See more recent suggestion about 3rd

Calpol
Day activities, (strange comings and goings at creche - still complaining of headache ?)
Calpol
Bed
Morning of 3rd
Found dead of sub-arachnoid haemorrhage.
Sorry, but I believe that would be Impossible, as the bed did not contain the scent of cadaver.
See later suggestion

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Me on 19.10.11 13:02

I think the starting point here, and the most revelatory aspect of this thread is the apparent acceptance from Kate that there was Maddie’s blood in the apartment.

I know it has been touched upon in previous posts but let’s nail it down.

Is Kate saying that there was blood and it was Maddie’s and therefore the dogs were right, destroying a key cornerstone of their defence that the dogs were wrong?

Or is she trying to simply cover all bases by saying no the dogs were wrong but if they were right then the blood was maybe because of a nosebleed.

Seems to me she’s hedging her bets but what kind of answer is that? Either the child had a nosebleed or she didn’t. There is no maybe about that.

If she did why was the blood found in those places behind the sofa? Has she answered that question?

Seems a trait of the McCann defence. Deny something but provide an excuse if that denial is proven to be incorrect.

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What is certain is that since the start of the investigation there were  incongruent and even contradictory situations concerning the witness statements; the telephone records of calls that were made and received on mobile phones that belonged to the couple and to the group of friends that were on holidays with them; the movements of people right after the disappearance of the little girl was noticed, concerning the state in which the bedroom from where the child disappeared from was found (closed window? open window? partially open window?) etc., and the mystery would only become even thicker due to the clues that were left by the already mentioned sniffer dogs. - The Words of a JUDGE in relation to the McCanns

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 13:03

Tinkerbell, this is the purpose of this thread and all theories are welcome. We need to try and understand what may have happened. As PeterMac has demonstrated, we can now rule out a slow death behind the sofa before May 3rd, as Madeleine was seen at creche at 17.30.

Your theory I believe is highly unlikely, given that Kate and Gerry would not have left an injured Madeleine behind the sofa long enough, to qualify for the release of cadaverine.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 13:11

@Me wrote:I think the starting point here, and the most revelatory aspect of this thread is the apparent acceptance from Kate that there was Maddie’s blood in the apartment.

I know it has been touched upon in previous posts but let’s nail it down.

Is Kate saying that there was blood and it was Maddie’s and therefore the dogs were right, destroying a key cornerstone of their defence that the dogs were wrong?

Or is she trying to simply cover all bases by saying no the dogs were wrong but if they were right then the blood was maybe because of a nosebleed.

Seems to me she’s hedging her bets but what kind of answer is that? Either the child had a nosebleed or she didn’t. There is no maybe about that.

If she did why was the blood found in those places behind the sofa? Has she answered that question?

Seems a trait of the McCann defence. Deny something but provide an excuse if that denial is proven to be incorrect.
I think you're right, they have been dodging admitting to a nose bleed, but by suggesting it, they are hedging their bets. How could they not remember this. How could they have thought it could get behind the sofa. It's absurd.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 13:25

@PeterMac wrote:
Back of head wipes against sofa at 70-80 cm. ( Remember Madeleine was said to be 90cm tall, so this is ENTIRELY consistent. )
How do you explain the stain in the lower right hand corner also, 2-3 foot away? and how did she get out of that space on her own?
Scrabbling around on the floor, trying to stand up, manages to, then sinks down again as she loses consciousness.
But for this to have happened in this way 'after' Kate and Gerry left for the night, it must mean at Gerry's first check he was the one to find the body, he said he saw her in bed at this time and there would not have been enough time for cadaverine to emerge for a start and not enough time to clean the place up and hide the body away from the apartment.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Angelique on 19.10.11 13:30

When haven't the McCanns been economical with the Truth. We know they change things as they go along and I agree that they back-fill if something doesn't tally with what either becomes obvious or if some little discrepancy arises.

Stella - you wrote in your initial post:

" But Gerry had pushed it closer to the wall to stop the children dropping their toys behind it."

But pictures of the apartment before the Mccanns were allowed to remove any items showed no obvious "toys" or anything that the twins or Madeleine played with - apart from the Sticker Book, of course. So is it possible that Gerry is backfilling when he says, he pushed the sofa back to stop the children throwing toys behind it.

Gerry is the type to be able to "think on his feet" as it were and I think that is just what he did - to give an innocent excuse for the sofa pushed so far against the wall it crushed the curtains. To any Police investigating a possible crime scene this would seem suspicious. But to then find blood behind it trashes this excuse IMO.


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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Me on 19.10.11 13:36

Stella wrote:
@Me wrote:I think the starting point here, and the most revelatory aspect of this thread is the apparent acceptance from Kate that there was Maddie’s blood in the apartment.

I know it has been touched upon in previous posts but let’s nail it down.

Is Kate saying that there was blood and it was Maddie’s and therefore the dogs were right, destroying a key cornerstone of their defence that the dogs were wrong?

Or is she trying to simply cover all bases by saying no the dogs were wrong but if they were right then the blood was maybe because of a nosebleed.

Seems to me she’s hedging her bets but what kind of answer is that? Either the child had a nosebleed or she didn’t. There is no maybe about that.

If she did why was the blood found in those places behind the sofa? Has she answered that question?

Seems a trait of the McCann defence. Deny something but provide an excuse if that denial is proven to be incorrect.
I think you're right, they have been dodging admitting to a nose bleed, but by suggesting it, they are hedging their bets. How could they not remember this. How could they have thought it could get behind the sofa. It's absurd.

Another example: the fish / nappies in the back of the hire car.

Deny something as "ridiculous" but provide an explanation just in case.

____________________
What is certain is that since the start of the investigation there were  incongruent and even contradictory situations concerning the witness statements; the telephone records of calls that were made and received on mobile phones that belonged to the couple and to the group of friends that were on holidays with them; the movements of people right after the disappearance of the little girl was noticed, concerning the state in which the bedroom from where the child disappeared from was found (closed window? open window? partially open window?) etc., and the mystery would only become even thicker due to the clues that were left by the already mentioned sniffer dogs. - The Words of a JUDGE in relation to the McCanns

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 13:40

Timeline on the night:

Kate: “we arrived at the tapas around 8.31, taking the direct route”.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

Gerry: “according to his watch, around 21:04” was inside the apartment and saw Madeleine lying on her left side.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm

Time difference approx 33 minutes.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by steevo1962 on 19.10.11 13:44

I mentioned in another post that as a parent of toddlers, I would assume that one or both of them would pull the sofa away from the window to avoid someone with the ability such as Maddie to open and maybe fall out of the window. This would create a void which Maddie could have falling down and then cracked her head on the hard floor tiles. I used to do this in our old flat and I or my partner would put a pillow down on the floor behind the sofa for this very purpose, just incase. Children can quickly get into trouble when your back is turned and can also drown in 2" of water! Such are the dangers of bringing up toddlers for any parent!

So being responsible...ish parents. Maybe they did so to prevent Maddie trying to open the window while they were out socialising with their friends?


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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 13:46

@Angelique wrote:When haven't the McCanns been economical with the Truth. We know they change things as they go along and I agree that they back-fill if something doesn't tally with what either becomes obvious or if some little discrepancy arises.

Stella - you wrote in your initial post:

" But Gerry had pushed it closer to the wall to stop the children dropping their toys behind it."

But pictures of the apartment before the Mccanns were allowed to remove any items showed no obvious "toys" or anything that the twins or Madeleine played with - apart from the Sticker Book, of course. So is it possible that Gerry is backfilling when he says, he pushed the sofa back to stop the children throwing toys behind it.

Gerry is the type to be able to "think on his feet" as it were and I think that is just what he did - to give an innocent excuse for the sofa pushed so far against the wall it crushed the curtains. To any Police investigating a possible crime scene this would seem suspicious. But to then find blood behind it trashes this excuse IMO.
I agree Angelique, there is no evidence of toys anywhere, so that is probably a very lame excuse for moving the sofa.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 13:49

@steevo1962 wrote:I mentioned in another post that as a parent of toddlers, I would assume that one or both of them would pull the sofa away from the window to avoid someone with the ability such as Maddie to open and maybe fall out of the window. This would create a void which Maddie could have falling down and then cracked her head on the hard floor tiles. I used to do this in our old flat and I or my partner would put a pillow down on the floor behind the sofa for this very purpose, just incase. Children can quickly get into trouble when your back is turned and can also drown in 2" of water! Such are the dangers of bringing up toddlers for any parent!

So being responsible...ish parents. Maybe they did so to prevent Maddie trying to open the window while they were out socialising with their friends?

But there is no evidence that the shutter was even up on that window. As far as I know it is not even mentioned by the PJ on the night. So if the shutter is down, there would not have been any fear of a child opening the window.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 13:54


The shutter was down on the night !!! as seen in this forensic photo and I am betting it was left down the whole week, along with the children's bedroom one.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by steevo1962 on 19.10.11 14:11

Sorry Stella but that photo has been taken in daylight and the shutter may have been closed for privacy after the event?

There is no date stamp on the photo, so therefore could have been taken a FEW days after. Only the PJ would be able to state the exact time of the photo's and the position of the shutter that evening.

And alarmingly, that is some drop from the window, I wouldn't want my child going anywhere near it!


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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Invinoveritas on 19.10.11 14:14

steevo, there appears to be a balcony in front of the afore mentioned window

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by jd on 19.10.11 14:21

The shutters were down as proven by the forensics, plus it is impossible to jemmie them open without causing permanent substantial damage...there was no damage to them and they could not have been opened from the outside. The only possible way would be from the inside using the chord...this is a fact with these shutters and one I have proven at first hand

Yet on the night of May 3rd 2007 all Tapas 9 are phoning anyone they can think of shouting the shutters were open!

And even now in 2011, the McScams are on TV in other countries telling the public that KM found the shutters were open!

All this is such a blatant LIE...yet nobody seems to be bringing the McScams to justice with this lying to the general public that is proven...Allowing them to falsely the publics money in a cover of a charity that is a limited company...set up in world record time like no other company has

Instead..... if anyone questions the blatant in your face lie the McScams are bleating, you get targeted as an internet troll and have idiots treating you with utter hatred and contempt....not to mention that awful so called professional company called Carter Ruck

I just don't get it...The authorities are not bringing to them to justice and this they should be doing considering the proven evidence of this blatant lie. As the authorities are not, then one can only assume that they are involved in the lie and cover up too

But none of them will get away with it, the truth is going to come out and the justice of this country that hundreds of thousands of men and women died in given us will prevail...if its the last thing I ever do


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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by steevo1962 on 19.10.11 14:23

@Invinoveritas wrote:steevo, there appears to be a balcony in front of the afore mentioned window

You must be pointing out the window above the McCanns apartment.

If you click the link and look at the plan of the flat, the sofa is against the side window overlooking the street with the steep drop and NO balcony.

That is the window above their flat.


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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by steevo1962 on 19.10.11 14:29

@jd wrote:The shutters were down as proven by the forensics, plus it is impossible to jemmie them open without causing permanent substantial damage...there was no damage to them and they could not have been opened from the outside. The only possible way would be from the inside using the chord...this is a fact with these shutters and one I have proven at first hand

Yet on the night of May 3rd 2007 all Tapas 9 are phoning anyone they can think of shouting the shutters were open!

And even now in 2011, the McScams are on TV in other countries telling the public that KM found the shutters were open!

All this is such a blatant LIE...yet nobody seems to be bringing the McScams to justice with this lying to the general public that is proven...Allowing them to falsely the publics money in a cover of a charity that is a limited company...set up in world record time like no other company has

Instead..... if anyone questions the blatant in your face lie the McScams are bleating, you get targeted as an internet troll and have idiots treating you with utter hatred and contempt....not to mention that awful so called professional company called Carter Ruck

I just don't get it...The authorities are not bringing to them to justice and this they should be doing considering the proven evidence of this blatant lie. As the authorities are not, then one can only assume that they are involved in the lie and cover up too

But none of them will get away with it, the truth is going to come out and the justice of this country that hundreds of thousands of men and women died in given us will prevail...if its the last thing I ever do




Check out my topic with regards Tactical Avoidence of the truth

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Invinoveritas on 19.10.11 14:35

@steevo1962 wrote:
@Invinoveritas wrote:steevo, there appears to be a balcony in front of the afore mentioned window

You must be pointing out the window above the McCanns apartment.

If you click the link and look at the plan of the flat, the sofa is against the side window overlooking the street with the steep drop and NO balcony.

That is the window above their flat.


Correct, my apologies , I overestimated the incline of the road

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by steevo1962 on 19.10.11 14:44

Looking at the space below the flat, I wonder if there is storage or a basement underneath?


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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 14:47

@steevo1962 wrote:Sorry Stella but that photo has been taken in daylight and the shutter may have been closed for privacy after the event?

There is no date stamp on the photo, so therefore could have been taken a FEW days after. Only the PJ would be able to state the exact time of the photo's and the position of the shutter that evening.

And alarmingly, that is some drop from the window, I wouldn't want my child going anywhere near it!


If you clicked on the link I attached to the photo, it will have taken you to the actual forensic report, which said;

- OBSERVATIONS AND ANALYSES PERFORMED -
On 4 May 2007, at 15:30, a Crime Scene team from the Police Science Laboratory, comprising the undersigned, went, at the request of DIC PJ Portimao, to a dwelling situated at Apartment 5A, of Block A of the tourist accommodation building, "Ocean Club" - Praia da Luz, Lagos, in order to perform a specialist examination of the location.There follow photograph displays of the exterior of the apartment to be examined as well as detail of the entrance thereto.

If privacy was needed, they would have raised PVC covers over the window from the outside, just as we do here with white tents, not touched or changed anything from the inside. These photos were taken before they began their inspection, it can only mean it was closed.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 14:50

@jd wrote:The shutters were down as proven by the forensics,

jd, great post but I think we are talking at cross purposes here. This is in relation to the living room side shutter, not the children's bedroom shutter.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by jd on 19.10.11 14:57

Stella wrote:
@jd wrote:The shutters were down as proven by the forensics,

jd, great post but I think we are talking at cross purposes here. This is in relation to the living room side shutter, not the children's bedroom shutter.

Thanks, I think we are! I was referring to the children's bedroom shutter...one of the biggest lies of this scam

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