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Sofa + accident = death, really?

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by madge on 15.10.11 17:41

"They are being left to sleep alone, while the parents get drunk at social gatherings, falling from windows and balconies like ripe fruit, or drying inside vehicles without the according penal sanction occurring"

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/04/freedom-and-childrens-rights.html

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Nina on 15.10.11 17:43

@madge wrote:"They are being left to sleep alone, while the parents get drunk at social gatherings, falling from windows and balconies like ripe fruit, or drying inside vehicles without the according penal sanction occurring"

[url=http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/04/freedom-and-childrens-rights.html
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/04/freedom-and-childrens-rights.html[/quote[/url]]



Madge, hello, and what a quick respnse that is the one

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 16.10.11 8:39

@tigger wrote:
Re the cadaver scent in the flower bed? What if say, the tennis bag with contents was left there for ten, twenty minutes? Surely the most secure way to move the body was in a car, wasn't the flowerbed on the side of the car park?
No tigger, the flower bed in question is in the rear garden.

As you can see, it appears to be the rear garden in line with the patio door to Kate and Gerry's bedroom.

Neither rear patio door can be opened from the outside. Which to me suggests possibly someone leaving something there until someone opens up the door. Not someone having left the apartment, then leaving a bag there for a short space of time.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 16.10.11 8:48

@Nina wrote:
@madge wrote:"They are being left to sleep alone, while the parents get drunk at social gatherings, falling from windows and balconies like ripe fruit, or drying inside vehicles without the according penal sanction occurring"

[url=http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/04/freedom-and-childrens-rights.html
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/04/freedom-and-childrens-rights.html[/quote[/url]]

Madge, hello, and what a quick respnse that is the one
Thanks madge thumbup

No Nina, I do not believe Madeleine fell from a window or a balcony. This is just a simple explanation and one of many possibilities, not necessarily the correct one. No one heard a child cry. No one found blood or a wet area from cleaning it up on the pavement. Children fall from much greater heights all the time and survive with some serious injuries.

If she fell outside, how did the body end up behind the sofa?

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Nina on 16.10.11 9:33

[quote="Stella"]
@Nina wrote:
@madge wrote:"They are being left to sleep alone, while the parents get drunk at social gatherings, falling from windows and balconies like ripe fruit, or drying inside vehicles without the according penal sanction occurring"

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/04/freedom-and-childrens-rights.html[/quote]

Madge, hello, and what a quick respnse that is the one
Thanks madge

No Nina, I do not believe Madeleine fell from a window or a balcony. This is just a simple explanation and one of many possibilities, not necessarily the correct one. No one heard a child cry. No one found blood or a wet area from cleaning it up on the pavement. Children fall from much greater heights all the time and survive with some serious injuries.

If she fell outside, how did the body end up behind the sofa?



Hello Stella. I don't think she had a fall outside either. It was a comment that GA had made and I was just offering it for discussion.

Re if she fell outside how did the body end up behind the sofa. Well she would have been carried, rather like Kate carrying her back home after the creche tea on the 3rd as she said Madeleine had complained of being tired.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 16.10.11 9:55

@Nina wrote:
Hello Stella. I don't think she had a fall outside either. It was a comment that GA had made and I was just offering it for discussion.

Re if she fell outside how did the body end up behind the sofa. Well she would have been carried, rather like Kate carrying her back home after the creche tea on the 3rd as she said Madeleine had complained of being tired.
Nina, they were Doctors, people who more than anyone else should know you cannot just pick someone up after an accident, as this could do more damage. Like you, I do not accept an accident occurred just outside 5a either.

There is one person who could blow this theory right out of the water, unfortunately I think this statement has been witheld from the files. It's the cleaner's statement and what she saw inside the apartment. Was the living room window shutter up or down when she went in to clean on the Wednesday ?

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Sedatives?

Post by steevo1962 on 16.10.11 12:22

While following the Michael Jackson case the discussion about sedatives administered to MJ is the main focus of the trial ie. self administered or an overdose by his doctor?

Common sense prevails after I remembered my time in hospital when I had to get a small operation under sedation.

Body weight, health etc is measured for the actual dose of anaesthetic to be calculated properly and exactly for the approximate length of time needed. Usually only a couple of hours before you then awake from your sleep. (Depending on the time taken for your treatment).

Then you have the MJ scenario where he was attached to a drip in order to keep a continuous measured flow into his system thereby keeping him unconscious and pain free for a longer period of time.

What I get from this is the fact that IF Madeleine was given a sedative, ie Calpol (Which is really not a sedative but more a reliever to allow the child to get to sleep) the sedative would surely wear off within a couple of hours or sooner. And being that Madeleine was "a bit of a firecracker" a real livewire, she would probably have woken up again hearing people entering doors, Gerry going to the toilet etc.

Therefore, did Gerry give her more 'sedative' to keep her quiet? He wouldn't really be that stupid to give her it all at once before they left at 8pm'ish?

And especially after the comment from Maddie that morning about the crying?

(A responsible parent would probably have cancelled their night out for the sake of their 'Loveable' daughter in order to re-assure her that she was safe and mummy/daddy still loved and hadn't abandoned them?)

Instead, it may be that the couple's arrogance and uncaring selfishness chose the sedative option in order to carry on their socialising undisturbed?

Did Gerry return to the flat not only to check the children but to 'Top Up' Maddie's dose?

Did she play up while he was there and he hurriedly and selfishly left her before she was fully asleep or sedated?

In her drowsy state did she climb the sofa and fall behind it cracking her head on the hard floor tiles?

Did Kate then find her dead behind the sofa when she visited at 10pm?

They panicked, covering up their crime as it surely would have ended both their careers and reputations and with the prospect of a lengthy trial and Prison sentence?

Did the keep insisting on sedation to the PJ,

1: Because they had sedated the twins aswell and they wanted this to be discovered so that it would strengthing their claims of 'Abduction'?

2: If the body was found, the trace and administration of sedative's could then be blamed on the abductor?

Jane Tanners alleged sighting turned the enquiry towards the abduction theory as the PJ had to act on what she had said so publicly to the world media and she and the others are to blame for failure of any substantial leads in the abduction theory because it didn't actually happen? They all conspired and misled the inquiry and I believe cleverly and purposely set out to do so?

Did you know that burying a body in DRY soil as is mostly in that Portugese terrain, 'Mummifies' the body as the fluids are naturally drawn into the soil and the body is dried out completely, thereby mummyfing the corpes? This would then allow the body to be removed without the risk of the putrid smell of decomposition.

The McCann's and their friends as intellectual's have been so calculating and precise in their assumptions and actions that I believe they will never be charged with anything to do with Maddie's death or disappearance unless her body is found or one of them crack's and 'Spill's the beans' giving us the TRUTH of what really happened on May 3rd 2007?

Looking at this photo and the puffy eyes of Maddie make's me think that she has been oversleeping or forced into deep sleeping over a period of time and more definately, the previous night that this photo was taken?



Please God....let justice prevail and bring to account the person or person's responsible for Madeleine's disappearance and let's hope that she is still alive and that we can all be thankfull, hopefully 'putting to bed' our doubts and suspicions for good!

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Gillyspot on 16.10.11 15:01

Excellent post steevo1962

Without the invisible Jane Tanner "sighting" where was the "abduction theory"? Nowhere.

Once the Shutters weren't jemmied found out on 3rd May then the McCanns had to find another excuse for an "abduction" to have possible taken place.


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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 17.10.11 8:05

There is no evidence to support the theory that any of the children were drugged every night.

There is no evidence to support Madeleine was drugged pre raising the alarm.

The only possible evidence of children being drugged post raising the alarm, is the fact that the twins did not move or wake, during the interviews and after, being removed from the apartment. This could have been done to ensure they were not interviewed or mention that Madeleine went away a few days before.

If all the chldren were being looked after by one adult, the one missing from the table every night, there was no need for any child to be drugged. If so, there never was any neglect and there never was an abduction.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 18.10.11 13:47

Stella wrote:
Under the center of this window is numbers 4, 5, 6 and 13, which relates to stains collected. It is the only position where a child could have fallen.

But as we all know, in any accident, especially where falling is concerned there is always evidence of a fall. Be it scratches, tears, scuffs or something broken or dented. But where is the evidence of any of this on that wall? Not one tiny little scratch from even one finger nail, is highlighted on that wall. Only stains !!

I'm still looking for any evidence of a fall, anything at all, but the more I look, the less likely I'm convinced.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by steevo1962 on 18.10.11 14:23

Did Kate not mention in her book that when asked about the blood in the apartment, that Maddie could have had a nose-bleed or something like children do sometimes?

Strange that she "MAY" have...I'm sure as a parent I would have known if my child had had a nose-bleed as one of the parents would have had to tend to it and it's something that come's out in conversation 'Oh Madeleine had a nose-bleed blah blah blah?'

So many Lies (Inconsistancies).....I'd be surprised if the Met police haven't worked these inconsistancies out and are trying to find evidence to build a case against them?

And surely if the Met now have juristriction over the Maddie investigation, can they not now pursue the McCanns for NEGLECT?


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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 18.10.11 14:30

No. The MET do not have jurisdiction. It is still and will always remain, a Portuguese Investigation.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 18.10.11 14:34

@steevo1962 wrote:Did Kate not mention in her book that when asked about the blood in the apartment, that Maddie could have had a nose-bleed or something like children do sometimes?
Yes, that feeble explanation was mentioned, but why would she have had one behind a sofa that sits up against a wall where no one ever walks. The same goes for all previous occupants.

Strange that she "MAY" have...I'm sure as a parent I would have known if my child had had a nose-bleed as one of the parents would have had to tend to it and it's something that come's out in conversation 'Oh Madeleine had a nose-bleed blah blah blah?'
Exactly. It's not something either parent could have missed.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by steevo1962 on 18.10.11 14:42

Stella wrote:No. The MET do not have jurisdiction. It is still and will always remain, a Portuguese Investigation.

So why are we the British Taxpayer spending millions of pounds on an investigation which will only reveal what we already know?


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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 18.10.11 15:17

£3.4M on a review, which might just be David Cameron's way to open the doors........to cooperate with the Portuguese......and get the investigation re-opened, once and for all !!! We can but hope and if that's the case, Cameron will get my next vote.

The Labour Party did a fantastic job at bringing the investigation to a Political halt in 2007, with assisting in getting Goncalo Amaral fired. It will take some review to turn this one around now. pray2 I'm not giving up hope just yet.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Bebootje on 18.10.11 15:34

Stella wrote:
@steevo1962 wrote:Did Kate not mention in her book that when asked about the blood in the apartment, that Maddie could have had a nose-bleed or something like children do sometimes?
Yes, that feeble explanation was mentioned, but why would she have had one behind a sofa that sits up against a wall where no one ever walks. The same goes for all previous occupants.

Strange that she "MAY" have...I'm sure as a parent I would have known if my child had had a nose-bleed as one of the parents would have had to tend to it and it's something that come's out in conversation 'Oh Madeleine had a nose-bleed blah blah blah?'
Exactly. It's not something either parent could have missed.

I remember them saying in an interview (after the TED how to spot a liar I happen to look back a lot of them) that she didn't and if she did have an accident then they would have known about it. (I think it was the Sky interview).
Then again I remember them saying that if an accident happened to her, why should it be their fault. One of the mere inconsistencies in statements.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 18.10.11 16:02

From Goncalo Amaral's book, The Truth of The Lie.

“Other than her sleep problems, it is possible that Madeleine suffered from an illness, a hypothesis that was never confirmed. Immediately after the discovery of traces of blood in the apartment, the mother, in the course of an interview with a Portuguese magazine, revealed that Madeleine had a nose bleed. But the bleeding could be associated with certain pathologies”.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id271.html


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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Invinoveritas on 18.10.11 16:34

Stella wrote:From Goncalo Amaral's book, The Truth of The Lie.

“Other than her sleep problems, it is possible that Madeleine suffered from an illness, a hypothesis that was never confirmed. Immediately after the discovery of traces of blood in the apartment, the mother, in the course of an interview with a Portuguese magazine, revealed that Madeleine had a nose bleed. But the bleeding could be associated with certain pathologies”.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id271.html


here is an extract from the Algarve Resident from sept.the 11th 2008, when asked about the blood found in the apartment :

quote Gerry: "No blood was found! This evidence does not have any value without being corroborated by forensic evidence and it was not"

http://www.algarveresident.com/0-22101/algarve/mccanns-react-to-footage-of-police-dog-searches contradictory and at the same time revealing

apart from that Stella, in the last picture you posted the stains on the left-hand corner at approx. 70-80centimetres above ground are to high for an accident such as falling onto the window-sill, the stains/splatters just don´t rhyme, this taking into account the first picture that you posted on this thread

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 8:17

Exactly Invinoveritas. The picture evidence, simply does not support the theory. IF there was no accident, yet we are still faced with the scent of cadaver and blood found in that area, can we then accept something happened on the night of the 3rd?

nah of course not.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by PeterMac on 19.10.11 10:20

@Invinoveritas wrote:
apart from that Stella, in the last picture you posted the stains on the left-hand corner at approx. 70-80centimetres above ground are to high for an accident such as falling onto the window-sill, the stains/splatters just don´t rhyme, this taking into account the first picture that you posted on this thread

Not so fast !
Evening of 1st.
Climbs onto sofa to look out of window for missing parents
Falls and bangs back of head on floor, making small cut, but nothing more externally visible.
No necessarily unconscious, but might have been and then regained consciousness in a few minutes.
Small spots of blood on floor.
Struggles to strand up in the gap between sofa and wall.
Back of head wipes against sofa at 70-80 cm. ( Remember Madeleine was said to be 90cm tall, so this is ENTIRELY consistent. )
Cries a lot, heard and reported by Mrs Fenn.
Parents eventually return.
Bleeding now long since stopped, Madeline tired and emotional and just wanting to be cuddled.
Calpol
Bed
Next morning (2nd) complains of headache
Calpol
Day activities, (strange comings and goings at creche - still complaining of headache ?)
Calpol
Bed
Morning of 3rd
Found dead of sub-arachnoid haemorrhage.
Panic because of
1 Neglect
2 professional misjudgement
3 volume of Calpol
Sofa rammed back against the wall, so tight it would be impossible to move the curtains.
and so on...
[for those who do not know, a sub-arachnoid can take several days to kill, even when the patient is in intensive care.]

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Invinoveritas on 19.10.11 10:31

PeterMac, that doesn´t explain the cadaver odour that Eddie indicated behind the sofa, unless she got up during the night and crept behind the sofa to die.

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sofa

Post by russiandoll on 19.10.11 10:40

I would think that the body would have needed to be in that place for a certain length of time for odour to develop which would be detectable to a cadaver dog. The body could have been placed in that location by someone wanting to temporarily conceal it . It might not have happened that way of course but your comment makes Peter Mac's logical theory sound totally implausible!
Peter I thought after reading the book that the tiredness and pallor Maddie exhibited not long before her disappearance might well have related to a head injury.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by PeterMac on 19.10.11 10:44

Indeed not. Thanks for that. We must not try to alter the facts to fit a theory.
SO...
Stands up, wipes blood on sofa from small cut to head.
Collapses behind sofa
Coma
Dies
Parents return, do NOT check children
Go to bed
Wake, check children - M missing - ( HENCE the bed was not slept in. Hence also the "protesting too much" that KM slept in the children's room that night.)
Find her dead and cold behind sofa

They know that time of death will show previous evening and so they panic.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 10:52

@PeterMac wrote:Indeed not. Thanks for that. We must not try to alter the facts to fit a theory.
SO...
Stands up, wipes blood on sofa from small cut to head.
Collapses behind sofa
Coma
Dies
Parents return, do NOT check children
Go to bed
Wake, check children - M missing - ( HENCE the bed was not slept in. Hence also the "protesting too much" that KM slept in the children's room that night.)
Find her dead and cold behind sofa

They know that time of death will show previous evening and so they panic.

thinking

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 10:57

@PeterMac wrote:Not so fast !

PeterMac, thank you, this is exactly what is needed, a Police perspective, to help all of us try to understand what is being suggested may have happened.

Evening of 1st.
Climbs onto sofa to look out of window for missing parents
But this is only possible if all the children were really being left on their own. IF, it can be proven that they never were, this theory goes out the window straight away.

Falls and bangs back of head on floor, making small cut, but nothing more externally visible.
No necessarily unconscious, but might have been and then regained consciousness in a few minutes.
Small spots of blood on floor.
Struggles to strand up in the gap between sofa and wall.
I'm still struggling to accept that the sofa was so far forward, that a gap would have been big enough for a child to fall behind it. The room layout would have looked really stupid. A gap just big enough to close the curtains is all that was needed, by taking more space for no other reason, would have robbed that area of precious living space.

Back of head wipes against sofa at 70-80 cm. ( Remember Madeleine was said to be 90cm tall, so this is ENTIRELY consistent. )
How do you explain the stain in the lower right hand corner also, 2-3 foot away? and how did she get out of that space on her own?

Cries a lot, heard and reported by Mrs Fenn.
Parents eventually return.
Bleeding now long since stopped, Madeline tired and emotional and just wanting to be cuddled.
Calpol
Bed
Next morning (2nd) complains of headache
But the Nanny never talks of dried blood, cuts or bump, lethargy or any other condition that would have been noticed.

Calpol
Day activities, (strange comings and goings at creche - still complaining of headache ?)
Calpol
Bed
Morning of 3rd
Found dead of sub-arachnoid haemorrhage.
Sorry, but I believe that would be Impossible, as the bed did not contain the scent of cadaver.

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