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Sofa + accident = death, really?

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 20.10.11 8:05

@happychick wrote:
Stella wrote:Tinkerbell, this is the purpose of this thread and all theories are welcome. We need to try and understand what may have happened. As PeterMac has demonstrated, we can now rule out a slow death behind the sofa before May 3rd, as Madeleine was seen at creche at 17.30.

Your theory I believe is highly unlikely, given that Kate and Gerry would not have left an injured Madeleine behind the sofa long enough, to qualify for the release of cadaverine.

I thought you said she died before the 3rd and there was a substitute signed into the creche?

I'm confused sad
I'm sorry if I am confusing people with this thread, it's not intentional. My feelings have not changed in any way and I still believe that Madeleine may have died in the evening of the 28th. But there is still a great many people out there, who believe Madeleine died behind this couch on the 3rd. Bit by bit, I am trying to pick through all of the available evidence we have, to try and test it out. This is the only way we can say either yes, this is a possibility, or no, this cannot be. With the input from PeterMac, the theory of death behind the sofa before 17.30 on the 3rd, is now completely ruled out. The next step is at what point could Madeleine have been left on her own and how did the strongest scent of cadaver appear behind that sofa and why?

This is a journey I hope will strengthen kiko's findings. thumbup

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 20.10.11 8:11

Molly wrote:It's a pretty powerful discussion, this. I think Stella is right, there's not much point in making the evidence fit a theory, it won't ever lead to the truth. We all refer to the McCann's washing the curtains and scrubbing the walls but the samples that were collected don't really prove that, in fact the wall samples point to the DNA of previous occupants. In samples that were collected and analysed on the wall, couch and curtains I can't see anything stating that it was blood that was collected. Correct Amaral only points to one bit of evidence in the apartment that he believes holds Madeleine's blood, that's the sample collected from beneath the floor tile. Correct I think the "Blood Splatter" title and photograph evidence is misleading when you consider what the forensic results were when they came back. But I'd be a lot more interested in what PeterMac thinks of this because the actual results of the forensic evidence is very hard to read and understand.

If you believe that the McCann children were in fact unattended on the night of 03/05/07 and the odds were therefore that they were sedated it's a very easy assumption that Madeleine fell over the top of the couch (previous occupants tell us that the couch was always away from the wall) and cracked her head off the hard ceramic tiles. But if you believe that the children were all together under the watchful eye of an adult then there would be no reason to sedate them unless there was a problem like for example needing the twins to sleep through the night undisturbed. This doesn't mean that there was never a cadaverine behind the couch and it doesn't mean that the blood that was found under the tiles wasn't Madeleine's, it just means that it didn't happen in the way it was theorised and this is all that Stella is saying. Yes, yes, yes thumbup

So if Jane/Russell were the designated childminders on Thursday 3rd Exactly then what really happened and where was Madeleine and who drugged the twins and why? And what did Gerry really mean on the shuttle video when he was not there to enjoy himself?
thumbsup

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 20.10.11 8:26

From Martin Grime's Rogatory Interview
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

"There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects".

What Martin is telling us here is, through transference, cadaverine can be transferred from one spot to another. Just because the scent of cadaver was found behind the sofa, it does not mean this is the actual point of death. Only that the body or something in very close proximity to the body, has been there.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 20.10.11 8:35

@steevo1962 wrote:
5 If you believe that the McCann children were in fact unattended on the night of 03/05/07 You don't have to be convinced as the McCanns and Tanner etc have already testified that the children were always left on their own including 3rd May?
If you believe this steevo, with the amount of inconsistencies we have seen in all of their statements, You are either very naive, or not really interested in searching for the truth.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 20.10.11 9:43

The lounge before and after the furniture is removed.

Note the position of the left hand sofa, in relation to the hip on the wall. It is on the right of the hip.

Note the black cord on the left of the top photo, which has been removed, probably cut off, when the furniture was removed. It's not the shutter cord, which you can still see on the right.

As you can see, in the top picture, butting the sofas up at a 90 degree angle, into the corner where the hip joins the left hand wall, creates a small void. Do you still think this would be left without a small coffee table?

If you look behind the left had sofa, you can see there was not much room for the dining room table chairs to be pulled out. I think that entire lounde/diner was overall quite small.

Question: Why would Gerry only mention moving the sofa nearer to the wall and not pulling it further away? If he really had concerns about a child getting out of that window, he would be perfectly excusable for do this, so why did he never mention it? Did he already know that by possibly leaving the shutter down all week, that this was an impossibility?


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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by jd on 20.10.11 11:50

The Paynes had a baby monitor each night with them at the dinner table which suggest their kids were left alone. Though I suspect one of the nannies were looking after them all, namely Charlotte Pennington or Catriona Baker

I personally do not think Maddie was alive that day or even went on that holiday

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by steevo1962 on 20.10.11 12:05

Your thoughts as for GA's theory about what happened to Madeleine...How can an experienced detective with all the evidence be so wrong if we are told to believe that Madeleine was dead before the 3rd of May?



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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 20.10.11 12:36

@jd wrote:The Paynes had a baby monitor each night with them at the dinner table which suggest their kids were left alone. Though I suspect one of the nannies were looking after them all, namely Charlotte Pennington or Catriona Baker

I personally do not think Maddie was alive that day or even went on that holiday
From what I have read in the staff statements, more than one of them talk about a 'walkie talkie'. To me that suggests a two way conversation was involved. These baby monitors are two way and it could easily have been used to let each other know when food arrived on the table and it was time to change shifts. I think the person/persons missing every night looked after all of them.

The fact that no DNA or hairs of any of the 3 McCann children were found in that apartment, might suggest they all had apartments elsewhere. Fiona claims that she and David were the only one's to book a '2 bed', yet everyone else all ended up with one. Tanner booked a '1 bed', but talks of a '2 bed'. The MW paperwork has the McCann's down for '2 bed' plus an extra bed !!! So who knows where they all were. It might explain the lack of DNA and children's fingerprints in 5a.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by jd on 20.10.11 12:51

Sometimes the police do not always reveal what they really believe to be the real truth in order for the criminal to be caught and get the evidence they need

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by steevo1962 on 20.10.11 12:55

[quote="Stella"]
@steevo1962 wrote:Your thoughts as for GA's theory about what happened to Madeleine...How can an experienced detective with all the evidence be so wrong if we are told to believe that Madeleine was dead before the 3rd of May?




Goncalo Amaral did not get a chance to complete his investigation. A very complex one at that. It took 4 years for some of us to spot the discrepencies in the creche records. Discrepencies that started on the morning of the 29th. If you are interested in any more information, may I suggest you read the 'Creche Enquiry' thread.


Which is where may I ask?

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by jd on 20.10.11 13:54

I think financial gain is the only motive. As is always in these scam stories. There is no other reason thats brings all these people together


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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 20.10.11 16:03

Stella wrote:The lounge before and after the furniture is removed.

Note the position of the left hand sofa, in relation to the hip on the wall. It is on the right of the hip.

Note the black cord on the left of the top photo, which has been removed, probably cut off, when the furniture was removed. It's not the shutter cord, which you can still see on the right.

As you can see, in the top picture, butting the sofas up at a 90 degree angle, into the corner where the hip joins the left hand wall, creates a small void. Do you still think this would be left without a small coffee table?

If you look behind the left had sofa, you can see there was not much room for the dining room table chairs to be pulled out. I think that entire lounde/diner was overall quite small.

Question: Why would Gerry only mention moving the sofa nearer to the wall and not pulling it further away? If he really had concerns about a child getting out of that window, he would be perfectly excusable for doing this, so why did he never mention it? Did he already know that by possibly leaving the shutter down all week, that this was an impossibility?

Sorry for bumping my own post, but I am still interested in finding out why Gerry would not have mentioned to the PJ anything about having to pull the sofa so far out, to prevent Madeleine from falling out of that window.?

Because if that had been me, I would not hesitate in telling the authorities and the owners, how dangerous that window is for children. But no one mentions anything.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Invinoveritas on 20.10.11 16:16

Stella, I´ve found these pictures on Pamalam´s site, they´re taken from Goncarlo´s book, the blind in the living area appears to be open and if you remember, on the pictures taken inside the room there is (what I thought was a reflection of the flash) a conical or round light in the window, could this be the street-lighting?

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/STREET_LIGHTING.htm

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 20.10.11 16:30

@Invinoveritas wrote:Stella, I´ve found these pictures on Pamalam´s site, they´re taken from Goncarlo´s book, the blind in the living area appears to be open and if you remember, on the pictures taken inside the room there is (what I thought was a reflection of the flash) a conical or round light in the window, could this be the street-lighting?

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/STREET_LIGHTING.htm
Thank you Invinoveritas for looking for these images, I really appreciate it. I also found some taken around the 10th of May I think and they were down at that time. I am assuming that if your ones appeared in Goncalo's book, the chances are they were taken just before he published the book. It would have been so nice to see one taken on the actual night, just after the PJ arrived, but I cannot find one anywhere. I need to spend a lot of time going through all the early Youtube footage, to see if Sky news or the local Portuguese news station was there and filming everything live.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 20.10.11 16:50

Stella wrote:
Stella wrote:The lounge before and after the furniture is removed.

Note the position of the left hand sofa, in relation to the hip on the wall. It is on the right of the hip.

Note the black cord on the left of the top photo, which has been removed, probably cut off, when the furniture was removed. It's not the shutter cord, which you can still see on the right.

As you can see, in the top picture, butting the sofas up at a 90 degree angle, into the corner where the hip joins the left hand wall, creates a small void. Do you still think this would be left without a small coffee table?

If you look behind the left had sofa, you can see there was not much room for the dining room table chairs to be pulled out. I think that entire lounde/diner was overall quite small.

Question: Why would Gerry only mention moving the sofa nearer to the wall and not pulling it further away? If he really had concerns about a child getting out of that window, he would be perfectly excusable for doing this, so why did he never mention it? Did he already know that by possibly leaving the shutter down all week, that this was an impossibility?

Sorry for bumping my own post, but I am still interested in finding out why Gerry would not have mentioned to the PJ anything about having to pull the sofa so far out, to prevent Madeleine from falling out of that window.?

Because if that had been me, I would not hesitate in telling the authorities and the owners, how dangerous that window is for children. But no one mentions anything.

Maybe to avoid people from thinking she then could have fallen behind it?

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Nina on 20.10.11 17:04

In this link GMcC states that the sofa was mooved as the children threw objects behind it namely playing cards.

http://www.zimbio.com/Madeleine+McCann/articles/s82nSogs2Rn/Gerry+McCann+Arguido+Questioning+7+9+07

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Only one thing...

Post by tigger on 20.10.11 17:38

In scientific terms you cannot prove a hypothesis, you can only disprove it.
Therefore, if you find you cannot disprove a hypothesis, it stands as what must be true, unless proof can be produced to disprove it.
I think PeterMac did the disproving bit?

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Invinoveritas on 20.10.11 17:40

Stella, I hope I´m not a pain in the neck, I´ve just found this documentary from Goncarlo and from 1.39 onwards one can see that the blinds were down, I don´t think he would falsify evidence as he knew it at the time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e7ug0BfNy4&feature=related

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Nina on 20.10.11 17:47

Just thinking out loud but to move the sofa closer to the wall would have made it easier for a child to climb up onto the window ledge and though there are horizontal shutters behind the window there is not a metal exterior grill so imo every window in that apartment was a danger to a child, in particular the two on the roadside wall of the living/kitchen. Each window though had sheer curtaining and full curtain apart from the dining area one that had a roman blind, so they offer extra barriers but also ace hide and seek places.

I would not have wanted any piece of furniture near a window, chair, sofa or table. There were 3 small children in that apartment and even a quick dash to the toilet would have filled me full of dread, yet Kate went for a shower and left the children unattended.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 21.10.11 8:59

@tigger wrote:In scientific terms you cannot prove a hypothesis, you can only disprove it.
Therefore, if you find you cannot disprove a hypothesis, it stands as what must be true, unless proof can be produced to disprove it.
I think PeterMac did the disproving bit?
Exactly tigger and until we went through that one yesterday, I never realised that a head injury followed by a slow death, could never have happened it that way. So good progress there.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 21.10.11 9:02

@Invinoveritas wrote:Stella, I hope I´m not a pain in the neck, I´ve just found this documentary from Goncarlo and from 1.39 onwards one can see that the blinds were down, I don´t think he would falsify evidence as he knew it at the time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e7ug0BfNy4&feature=related
No of course not, but from what I have seen so far, it may very well be that someone in the GNR or PJ, the first ones on the scene might have closed that shutter, if it was open to keep the press pictures out. We may never find the answer to this one and might have to add it to the pile of 'unknowns'.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 21.10.11 9:12

@Nina wrote:Just thinking out loud but to move the sofa closer to the wall would have made it easier for a child to climb up onto the window ledge and though there are horizontal shutters behind the window there is not a metal exterior grill so imo every window in that apartment was a danger to a child, in particular the two on the roadside wall of the living/kitchen. Each window though had sheer curtaining and full curtain apart from the dining area one that had a roman blind, so they offer extra barriers but also ace hide and seek places.

I would not have wanted any piece of furniture near a window, chair, sofa or table. There were 3 small children in that apartment and even a quick dash to the toilet would have filled me full of dread, yet Kate went for a shower and left the children unattended.
Good point Nina, if the window was a problem, the last thing you should do is move it closer.

This is the thing. I suspect the layout of the sofas has been like that for a very long time now. The awkward layout of the living/dining area does not leave another choice for layout. I would ask, has any previous occupants ever had concerns about that window with children before? Looking at it from a safety point of view. If the shutter was a half shutter, where the lower half can be closed when the upper half can be opened for daylight, if it was never raised it could never be a safety issue.

To be honest, any holiday apartment with tiled floors is a potential danger, with beds turning into trampolines in a split second. But that just makes you as parents responsible for taking better care for a week or two, not less care.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Nina on 21.10.11 9:36

Stella wrote:
@Nina wrote:Just thinking out loud but to move the sofa closer to the wall would have made it easier for a child to climb up onto the window ledge and though there are horizontal shutters behind the window there is not a metal exterior grill so imo every window in that apartment was a danger to a child, in particular the two on the roadside wall of the living/kitchen. Each window though had sheer curtaining and full curtain apart from the dining area one that had a roman blind, so they offer extra barriers but also ace hide and seek places.

I would not have wanted any piece of furniture near a window, chair, sofa or table. There were 3 small children in that apartment and even a quick dash to the toilet would have filled me full of dread, yet Kate went for a shower and left the children unattended.
Good point Nina, if the window was a problem, the last thing you should do is move it closer.

This is the thing. I suspect the layout of the sofas has been like that for a very long time now. The awkward layout of the living/dining area does not leave another choice for layout. I would ask, has any previous occupants ever had concerns about that window with children before? Looking at it from a safety point of view. If the shutter was a half shutter, where the lower half can be closed when the upper half can be opened for daylight, if it was never raised it could never be a safety issue.

To be honest, any holiday apartment with tiled floors is a potential danger, with beds turning into trampolines in a split second. But that just makes you as parents responsible for taking better care for a week or two, not less care.



Exactly Stella the apartment was an area of potential hazard for children coming for a holiday and leaving carpeted floors and homes where their parents have very likely got every child lock available.

This apartment was hard slippy floors, no protective covers on power sockets or kitchen drawers etc etc. So a slip and a bruised knee could happen in a second, something far more serious just as quickly as it was not a home from home for children.

Re the window blinds Stella. If you drop the blind right down with the use of the strap thenslowly raise the blind with the strap it raises from the top so it is possible to seperate each slat for air and light but the blind is still down and still cannot be raised from outside, believe me I have tried it

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 21.10.11 10:29

I'm betting there were instructions inside the apartment on how to operate these blinds and out of safety for their own children, they might have left that one down, just as they did in the children's bedroom.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Invinoveritas on 21.10.11 10:36

The correct term for the blinds are roller shutters with a manual tape, I used to have them on our house here in Bavaria, they are very heavy and I doubt that a 4year-old could have opened them, I´ve put this link in for information if required:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roller_shutter

and as Nina has pointed out, the shutters can be lifted slightly to let sunlight in, but remain shut for outsiders.

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