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Sofa + accident = death, really?

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 14:58



These are the first photos to be taken by Assistant Specialist Joao Barrerias, before the forensic team went it. He arrived on the scene at 1 am.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_PHOTO_REPORT.htm

He does not mention if the 'living room, side window shutter' is up or down, and does not photograph it from the outside. The above photo is the only one taken of the inside.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 14:59

@jd wrote:
Stella wrote:
@jd wrote:The shutters were down as proven by the forensics,

jd, great post but I think we are talking at cross purposes here. This is in relation to the living room side shutter, not the children's bedroom shutter.

Thanks, I think we are! I was referring to the children's bedroom shutter...one of the biggest lies of this scam

Exactly and I'd like to get to the bottom of this one also, as it is just as important.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 15:07

If anyone remembers any tv footage or photographs (on the night) that looks at that side window, can you please post it up here thanks. thumbup

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Invinoveritas on 19.10.11 15:10

If the shutters were down, which I agree with, and the window closed then I think we can dismiss the theory that Madeleine woke up and wandered into the living area, overheard her father talking on the street, tried to look out of the window and fell off the sofa and suffered fatal injuries, it just doen´t sound feasible to me

Stella, on Google Earth there is a good quality picture of the flat, I remember also seeing a night-time picture somewhere, I´ll see if I can find it

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 15:13

@steevo1962 wrote:Looking at the space below the flat, I wonder if there is storage or a basement underneath?

No, only foundations.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Invinoveritas on 19.10.11 15:40

Stella wrote:If anyone remembers any tv footage or photographs (on the night) that looks at that side window, can you please post it up here thanks.

the first picture through the patio door shows the "night-life", picture number 2 appears to reflects the flash on the camera and no "night-life"



picture number 4 is taken on the patio in the direction of picture number 2 and shows the "night-life"

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 16:01

Thank you Invinoveritas, but sadly we cannot see the side window shutter in any of those ones. I've been trying to look for the first tv crew footage, to see if they captured it from the outside.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by steevo1962 on 19.10.11 16:26

Stella wrote:
@steevo1962 wrote:Sorry Stella but that photo has been taken in daylight and the shutter may have been closed for privacy after the event?

There is no date stamp on the photo, so therefore could have been taken a FEW days after. Only the PJ would be able to state the exact time of the photo's and the position of the shutter that evening.

And alarmingly, that is some drop from the window, I wouldn't want my child going anywhere near it!


If you clicked on the link I attached to the photo, it will have taken you to the actual forensic report, which said;

- OBSERVATIONS AND ANALYSES PERFORMED -
On 4 May 2007, at 15:30, a Crime Scene team from the Police Science Laboratory, comprising the undersigned, went, at the request of DIC PJ Portimao, to a dwelling situated at Apartment 5A, of Block A of the tourist accommodation building, "Ocean Club" - Praia da Luz, Lagos, in order to perform a specialist examination of the location.There follow photograph displays of the exterior of the apartment to be examined as well as detail of the entrance thereto.

If privacy was needed, they would have raised PVC covers over the window from the outside, just as we do here with white tents, not touched or changed anything from the inside. These photos were taken before they began their inspection, it can only mean it was closed.

I did click on the link and discovered that the photograph was taken at 15.30. 16hrs after the alleged abduction. I meant privacy in a Private not forensic sense as the area and flats opposite the window was where some of the media were horded trying to get film and media of the family and events.

The photograph only shows the state of the shutters at 15.30 that afternoon (4th May) and nowhere in that report does it state that the shutter had been closed at the time of abduction or previous to the report. Therefore it is only an assumption for you to say for definate that the shutter had to be in that closed position just as it is my assumption that the parents were protecting the children from falling out of the window with the shutter open, or Maddie opening the shutter so far with the internal control, then opening the window and falling out. Therefore as a parent I would pre-empty this chance by pulling the sofa away from the window far enough out of a young childs reach.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 16:39

@steevo1962 wrote:
The photograph only shows the state of the shutters at 15.30 that afternoon (4th May) Correct
and nowhere in that report does it state that the shutter had been closed at the time of abduction or previous to the report.
True, which is very odd, as someone somewhere should have made a note of this don't you think?

Therefore it is only an assumption for you to say for definate that the shutter had to be in that closed position
I am basing my assumption on the fact that these photographs were taken during the 2nd forensic sweep, during daylight hours, when nothing should have been touched or moved by the GNR or PJ. Which should mean, the apartment was in the exact same condition it was, when the alarm was first raised.

just as it is my assumption that the parents were protecting the children from falling out of the window with the shutter open, or Maddie opening the shutter IMPOSSIBLE so far with the internal control, then opening the window and falling out. Therefore as a parent I would pre-empty this chance by pulling the sofa away from the window far enough out of a young childs reach.
I do not believe a 3 year old child with no sofa underneath the pully cord could reach it, let alone with no strength at all raise it up by herself.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Tinkerbell81 on 19.10.11 16:41

Stella wrote:Tinkerbell, this is the purpose of this thread and all theories are welcome. We need to try and understand what may have happened. As PeterMac has demonstrated, we can now rule out a slow death behind the sofa before May 3rd, as Madeleine was seen at creche at 17.30.

Your theory I believe is highly unlikely, given that Kate and Gerry would not have left an injured Madeleine behind the sofa long enough, to qualify for the release of cadaverine.

I dont know how long it takes for that to be released, but if they hadnt noticed her in the first place they would think she was just in her bed. It would be a way to explain cadaver odour on cuddlecat, she would have been holding it. Its a feeble possibility I agree. But the whole sofa thing keeps bugging me, why there? Why is it that there is the strongest indication?

Sometimes I feel this case is too complex to get my head wrapped around it. Kudos to you all, you seem to be juggling facts and statements in your heads

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by jd on 19.10.11 16:53

[quote="Tinkerbell81"]
Stella wrote: As PeterMac has demonstrated, we can now rule out a slow death behind the sofa before May 3rd, as Madeleine was seen at creche at 17.30.

Where is the thread that PeterMac demonstrated this? I'd like to read it, thanks

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by steevo1962 on 19.10.11 16:55

In the photo of the window behind the sofa, the curtain has been moved away as if someone has pushed it aside to eg. close the window?

When you say impossible stella, it would of course be impossible if the sofa was moved away from the window as I have suggested a responsible parent would do. Which would then create the scenario for a child such as Maddie to fall behind and crack her head on the hard floor tiles? Falling firstly to the bottom where blood was found, trying to get up and brushing the sofa where more blood was found, then collapsing comatos laying there for a time which could have been as early as 8.30 on the 3rd May after the parents had left for the Tapas?

I do not believe a 3 year old child with no sofa underneath the pully cord could reach it, let alone with no strength at all raise it up by herself.

I don't really understand what you are trying to say there in reply to my previous post?

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by happychick on 19.10.11 18:51

Stella wrote:Tinkerbell, this is the purpose of this thread and all theories are welcome. We need to try and understand what may have happened. As PeterMac has demonstrated, we can now rule out a slow death behind the sofa before May 3rd, as Madeleine was seen at creche at 17.30.

Your theory I believe is highly unlikely, given that Kate and Gerry would not have left an injured Madeleine behind the sofa long enough, to qualify for the release of cadaverine.

I thought you said she died before the 3rd and there was a substitute signed into the creche?

I'm confused sad

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Theories

Post by Guest on 19.10.11 20:55

It's a pretty powerful discussion, this. I think Stella is right, there's not much point in making the evidence fit a theory, it won't ever lead to the truth. We all refer to the McCann's washing the curtains and scrubbing the walls but the samples that were collected don't really prove that, in fact the wall samples point to the DNA of previous occupants. In samples that were collected and analysed on the wall, couch and curtains I can't see anything stating that it was blood that was collected. Amaral only points to one bit of evidence in the apartment that he believes holds Madeleine's blood, that's the sample collected from beneath the floor tile. I think the "Blood Splatter" title and photograph evidence is misleading when you consider what the forensic results were when they came back. But I'd be a lot more interested in what PeterMac thinks of this because the actual results of the forensic evidence is very hard to read and understand.

If you believe that the McCann children were in fact unattended on the night of 03/05/07 and the odds were therefore that they were sedated it's a very easy assumption that Madeleine fell over the top of the couch (previous occupants tell us that the couch was always away from the wall) and cracked her head off the hard ceramic tiles. But if you believe that the children were all together under the watchful eye of an adult then there would be no reason to sedate them unless there was a problem like for example needing the twins to sleep through the night undisturbed. This doesn't mean that there was never a cadaverine behind the couch and it doesn't mean that the blood that was found under the tiles wasn't Madeleine's, it just means that it didn't happen in the way it was theorised and this is all that Stella is saying.

So if Jane/Russell were the designated childminders on Thursday 3rd then what really happened and where was Madeleine and who drugged the twins and why? And what did Gerry really mean on the shuttle video when he was not there to enjoy himself?

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by steevo1962 on 19.10.11 21:34

Molly wrote:It's a pretty powerful discussion, this. I think Stella is right, there's not much point in making the evidence fit a theory, it won't ever lead to the truth. We all refer to the McCann's washing the curtains and scrubbing the walls but the samples that were collected don't really prove that, in fact the wall samples point to the DNA of previous occupants. In samples that were collected and analysed on the wall, couch and curtains I can't see anything stating that it was blood that was collected. Amaral only points to one bit of evidence in the apartment that he believes holds Madeleine's blood, that's the sample collected from beneath the floor tile. I think the "Blood Splatter" title and photograph evidence is misleading when you consider what the forensic results were when they came back. But I'd be a lot more interested in what PeterMac thinks of this because the actual results of the forensic evidence is very hard to read and understand.

If you believe that the McCann children were in fact unattended on the night of 03/05/07 and the odds were therefore that they were sedated it's a very easy assumption that Madeleine fell over the top of the couch (previous occupants tell us that the couch was always away from the wall) and cracked her head off the hard ceramic tiles. But if you believe that the children were all together under the watchful eye of an adult then there would be no reason to sedate them unless there was a problem like for example needing the twins to sleep through the night undisturbed. This doesn't mean that there was never a cadaverine behind the couch and it doesn't mean that the blood that was found under the tiles wasn't Madeleine's, it just means that it didn't happen in the way it was theorised and this is all that Stella is saying.

So if Jane/Russell were the designated childminders on Thursday 3rd then what really happened and where was Madeleine and who drugged the twins and why? And what did Gerry really mean on the shuttle video when he was not there to enjoy himself?

1 making the evidence fit a theory Who exactly is doing this?

2 We I personally and haven't seen in this particular discussion anyone mentioning this?

3 previous occupants I don't think he actually says that, the dog handler points out that the blood could be 'historic' but the 'Cadavar' has to be recent?

4 I can't see anything stating that it was blood that was collected. It's in the files and the DNA came back inconclusive relating to Maddie although there were markers of DNA. The forensic photo's show 'Blood splatter' which the McCanns claimed were from mosquito's?

5 If you believe that the McCann children were in fact unattended on the night of 03/05/07 You don't have to be convinced as the McCanns and Tanner etc have already testified that the children were always left on their own including 3rd May?

6 no reason to sedate them unless there was a problem like for example needing the twins to sleep through the night undisturbed. Why would this have to be? Madeleine had the habit of waking up and to make it easier for a sitter, and I find it strange that you have mentioned one when NO sitter existed according to the McCanns in their statements, therefore whether a sitter was there or not, you cannot rule out sedation?

7 it just means that it didn't happen in the way it was theorised and this is all that Stella is saying. And WHY not?

8 So if Jane/Russell were the designated childminders on Thursday 3rd But they were not...the Tapas ( did not have designated childminders? They had designated 'CHECKERS' who at intervals 'CHECKED' on their 'OWN' children?

9 And what did Gerry really mean on the shuttle video when he was not there to enjoy himself? He actually used the 'F' word in the video?

10 Why the change in policy?

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Irwins?

Post by steevo1962 on 19.10.11 23:39

Can anyone advise me on who the Irwins were and what part they played in the police investigation.

They seemed to have just met the McCanns and joined them for dinner at the Tapas on the 3rd May?

Were they ever interviewed?

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by littlepixie on 20.10.11 0:24

Quote// Molly "But if you believe that the children were all together under the
watchful eye of an adult then there would be no reason to sedate them
unless there was a problem like for example needing the twins to sleep
through the night undisturbed.


There are some reasons why an adult would sedate a child while they were under their watchful eye. It is very sad and hard to believe but it does happen.


Gerry McCann mentioned that his twins "may" have been sedated for one of two reasons IMO. Either he is sick in the head and had read the comments people had made about Sean looking drowsy coming off the plane and was "playing to his audience" or he knew that some sample, somewhere may show that Maddie had been sedated and was making sure no-one thought it was him.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by jd on 20.10.11 0:33

@steevo1962 wrote:Can anyone advise me on who the Irwins were and what part they played in the police investigation.

They seemed to have just met the McCanns and joined them for dinner at the Tapas on the 3rd May?

Were they ever interviewed?

There are 2 topics on the Irwins

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t485-irwin-and-sperrey-statements

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3243-the-irwins

This whole McCann scam was devised prior to 28th April 2007........


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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by jd on 20.10.11 0:34

@littlepixie wrote:Quote// Molly "But if you believe that the children were all together under the
watchful eye of an adult then there would be no reason to sedate them
unless there was a problem like for example needing the twins to sleep
through the night undisturbed.


There are some reasons why an adult would sedate a child while they were under their watchful eye. It is very sad and hard to believe but it does happen.


Gerry McCann mentioned that his twins "may" have been sedated for one of two reasons IMO. Either he is sick in the head and had read the comments people had made about Sean looking drowsy coming off the plane and was "playing to his audience" or he knew that some sample, somewhere may show that Maddie had been sedated and was making sure no-one thought it was him.

That video was a setup....There is no other reason for releasing it into the public domain

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by littlepixie on 20.10.11 0:37

Yes set-up so the viewer would think it was anyone else but Gerry who sedated them. Very clumsy IMO.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by jd on 20.10.11 0:49

@littlepixie wrote:Yes set-up so the viewer would think it was anyone else but Gerry who sedated them. Very clumsy IMO.

No it was setup for Gerrys comments

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by jd on 20.10.11 1:02

There are 2 things to bare in mind in this scam

1) Money....The root and sole motivation. The McCanns and all their associates like Kennedy, Smethurst, NOTW, The Sun etc have only this interest. To make money and also to have good PR which in turn will enhance their careers (i.e. earn more money) is to be attached to a story like this. For example, imagine how it appears that a little girl gets kidnapped and someone is so concerned that they donate millions of pounds ......what great PR for them and the real motivation for this PR is to make money. You don't give without getting a return

2) Confusion...In order to keep the story alive and away from the truth, is to create confusion. Nobody can get to the truth if there is a level of confusion which most do not understand, and a number of fairy stories and pics have been released in order to create this confusion. This is the point of it

However, I'd be watching my back if I was them. There are people out there who will make sure they are exposed and will leave no stone unturned....Time is running out

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Hello Molly and JD,

Post by tigger on 20.10.11 5:31

I didn't take part in this discussion because I'm thoroughly confused. Stella's work on the creche records, the phone records, I feel, are largely ignored in the theories here and vital problems such as rigor mortis (dead bodies are most uncooperative) time to develop cadaver odour etc. surely have to be taken into account.
I've always thought it impossible to have a plan, somewhere to store the body and to have the photographs ready, discuss and agree with the T7 how to organise the checks on the children, all in the space of a few hours.

I also believe the whole thing was planned before 28/4/07 and I can think of quite a few story lines which will ensure cooperation and back-up from friends and relatives whilst never telling them the truth.

I also still think the original idea came from the 2006 publication on the desirability of microchipping. Especially the proposal of the abduction of a photogenic toddler which would convince the general public of the need to microchip all children.There's money in them thar chips.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 20.10.11 7:54

[quote="jd"]
@Tinkerbell81 wrote:
Stella wrote: As PeterMac has demonstrated, we can now rule out a slow death behind the sofa before May 3rd, as Madeleine was seen at creche at 17.30.

Where is the thread that PeterMac demonstrated this? I'd like to read it, thanks
This is the thread jd, it's a few pages back.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 20.10.11 7:57

Page 8 of this thread in fact....very interesting stuff from PeterMac as usual.

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