Re: When a Catholic Priest is called - Extreme Unction

by Smokeandmirrors 06.03.13 6:59

iluvpelageya wrote:
But what if he knew about a massacre like the 9-11 bombing. (Oké, not likely). Where will his conscience lead him? His own selfish desire not to be excommunicated? How unholy to let many people die, let a man become a mass murderer for the sake of a principle.

A priest who divulges a confession would never be allowed to hear another confession again. He would not be excommunicated.

A lot of people seem to get worked up over the secrets of the confessional in the same way that a lot of people get worked up over rooms with locked doors. Can you name one instance where a priest could have prevented a murder over something told him in the confessional? People have assumed that either or both of the McCs have confessed that they bumped off Madeleine to a priest. Can you produce any evidence to say that this happened?

Anyway, according to John MacVicar's autobiography, during a prison riot, the inmates got access to the files, and found that things told to Catholic priests in confessional had found their way onto inmates' files.

I think ( and this is just my personal take on the situation ) that what has got some people wondering about K & G and their supposed Catholic faith is that it appears that they have "used" it for their own ends. I remember from an early interview with Kate's mother, Susan Healy that she said quite plainly that they were not very religious, Gerry had said he wasn't that religious, yet all of a sudden they presented an impression that they were completely devout, and used the church in PDL at every opportunity. I appreciate that people turn to God in times of need, that is not in dispute, but there is something about it which appears a bit "off".

The trip to see the Pope at the Vatican also struck many people as not only very staged for publicity, but the parents removed themselves to another country very soon after the disappearance, when in fact Madeleine, to all intents and purposes, could have been discovered at any moment. What parents, in the very recent aftermath of such a thing would go to another country at such a time? It makes no sense whatsoever.

And then we have the story that Pacheco felt "betrayed" by the Mc's and according to reports was extremely distressed by his dealings with them. If this story, which was supposedly from a friend of Pacheco, is true, then it raises some very worrying questions.

It is also well documented that they used IVF, and this is still considered to be a mortal sin by the Catholic church.

As with everything the Mc's, it just doesn't stack up.

by iluvpelageya 06.03.13 9:05

I think ( and this is just my personal take on the situation ) that what has got some people wondering about K & G and their supposed Catholic faith is that it appears that they have "used" it for their own ends. I remember from an early interview with Kate's mother, Susan Healy that she said quite plainly that they were not very religious, Gerry had said he wasn't that religious, yet all of a sudden they presented an impression that they were completely devout, and used the church in PDL at every opportunity. I appreciate that people turn to God in times of need, that is not in dispute, but there is something about it which appears a bit "off".

The trip to see the Pope at the Vatican also struck many people as not only very staged for publicity, but the parents removed themselves to another country very soon after the disappearance, when in fact Madeleine, to all intents and purposes, could have been discovered at any moment. What parents, in the very recent aftermath of such a thing would go to another country at such a time? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Thank you for your reply. Yes, I got this impression, too. The visit to the Pope is logical if one were looking for a missing child. It is something that creates publicity.

It is also well documented that they used IVF, and this is still considered to be a mortal sin by the Catholic church.

The IVF is a bit of a red herring. People can practise a religion and break rules that they disagree with. We have all breakfasted with a Sikh who tucks into a plate of bacon and eggs, or a Jew eating a ham bagel, or been out for a drink with a Muslim. Contrary to popular belief, the Catholic Church is not an exclusive club for the righteous. The Catholic Church is for sinners. If you are a saint, you don't need it.

And then we have the story that Pacheco felt "betrayed" by the Mc's and according to reports was extremely distressed by his dealings with them. If this story, which was supposedly from a friend of Pacheco, is true, then it raises some very worrying questions.

But being distressed about his dealings with them does not necessarily mean that the McCs confessed something devastating to him. If, as you say, the McCs are just paying lip-service to the Catholic Church, then it is hardly likely that either of them will tell a priest anything of any consequence. The priest could have been annoyed over something as mundane as the McCs lighting all the shrine votive candles in the church and not leaving a big enough donation; or turning up at mass, going up to the altar rails and making a huge, showy, sign of the cross before taking their places.

Let me make it clear that the Catholic Church may be guilty of a number of things, but one cannot reasonably blame it for what happened to Madeleine...which brings us to Juulcy's creation of a straw man by suggesting that someone confessed to 9/11 before it happened. Yeah, I can just see Osama Bin Laden arriving at Lake Wobegon on 10th September, and unburdening everything that was on his mind to the priest at Our Lady of Perpetual Responsibility. And 9/11 is wholly the fault of a Minnesota priest for not getting straight on the blower to the FBI. Not even David Icke or Alex Jones has come up with that one.

by **PeterMac** 06.03.13 9:23

iluvpelageya wrote:. . . The visit to the Pope is logical if one were looking for a missing child.

Given what we now know about the Vatican, it is certainly more logical to look there.
Perhaps that is why they took the photo along.

by Guest 06.03.13 9:25

Hi Iluvpelageya,
I take it you are a Catholic. I certainly didn't mean to hurt your feelings. My little philisophical post was not directly related to the Mccanns nor the priest. And most certainly not to put blame on the church for what happened in PdL! read my post again if you concluded that. I was thinking through the complexity of the seal of Confession. Violation of which will result in excommunication.

" The seal of the confessional - sigillum confessionis - is a byword in Catholic circles for absolute and lifelong confidentiality. Canon 1388.1 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law has this to say:

A confessor who directly violates the seal of confession incurs an automatic excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See; if he does so only indirectly, he is to be punished in accord with the seriousness of the offense."

Will my example be more credible if I said: what is the Catholic priest to do if he hears of an impending carbombing in Ireland? My ponderings were not about an actual happening, more about the weighing of life against a principle.

by aiyoyo 06.03.13 16:11

mexx wrote:I also believe that suicide bombers are brainwashed, but I don't recall an catholic ones...

IMO anyone who believes God decrees them to do certain things certain ways are brainwashed irrespective your religion allegiance.

by aiyoyo 06.03.13 16:19

iluvpelageya wrote:
4. Catholics are forbidden to have their bodies cremated, except in case of a serious public necessity. The Catholic burial service is denied those who give orders to have their bodies cremated.

This is somewhat out of date. Although burial of the body is preferred, the Church's ban on cremation was lifted as far back as 1963. There are some rules, which might be pertinent to this case. The ashes should be placed in a respectful vessel. Scattering is frowned upon by the Church, as is distribution among relatives. If the ashes are buried at sea, the ashes should still be in their container when released.

Men's technology has evolved and we live in internet era when every info you can ever want, hence acquired wisdom is a mouse click away, yet God's rules remain stagnant, unchanged, backdated; and that's the best the omnipotent and omnipresence can do for his creation.

by aiyoyo 06.03.13 16:28

iluvpelageya wrote:. . . The visit to the Pope is logical if one were looking for a missing child.

Why would that be so? Even God can't help one look for or find a missing child so why should the Pope be any better?
It is more logical if she's dead and her parents thought they were receiving absolution by being touched hence blessed by the Pope.

by Wlmslow 06.03.13 16:58

This almost too awful to contemplate, but what if we are misled by the possibility of a confession or similar between the priest and Healy& Maccann.

What if the priest was asked, and delivered, the last rites to an injured child in the days before a staged abduction ?

Imagine his position then, after the abduction was announced.

Another hypothesis based on strange evidence and behavior.

by Nina 06.03.13 18:10

Wlmslow wrote:This almost too awful to contemplate, but what if we are misled by the possibility of a confession or similar between the priest and Healy& Maccann.

What if the priest was asked, and delivered, the last rites to an injured child in the days before a staged abduction ?

Imagine his position then, after the abduction was announced.

Another hypothesis based on strange evidence and behavior.

Hello Wilmslow and welcome to the forum.
You have a very interesting theory here and one that I have not seen before. So this is saying an injured child before Thursday, and how would she be injured and not taken to the nearest hospital pretty sharpish rather than send for a priest which would say the parents knew she was about to die and wanted whatever it is RC priests do for such a person?
I am not a Catholic so don't really know what the procedure is for the care of the dying.
The visit to the Pope did get them a photograph of Madeleine blessed though and a short mention on the Vatican web page so that was maybe a spiritual gain for Madeleine, the blessing not the web page.

by Miraflores 06.03.13 18:12

aiyoyo wrote:
iluvpelageya wrote:. . . The visit to the Pope is logical if one were looking for a missing child.

Why would that be so? Even God can't help one look for or find a missing child so why should the Pope be any better?
It is more logical if she's dead and her parents thought they were receiving absolution by being touched hence blessed by the Pope.

I think this is to do with Gerry's statement that Madeleine was abducted by paedophiles and the scandals which have beset the Catholic church in recent years.

by Guest 06.03.13 19:38

I've always found it it suspicious, that they turned to be devote Roman Catholics [enter Maman Healy :"They were never really devote"], yet kind of ignored the RC priest and befriended the Presbytarian, who has meanwhile moved on from PdL BTW.

by iluvpelageya 06.03.13 22:55

iluvpelageya wrote:
. . . The visit to the Pope is logical if one were looking for a missing child.

Why would that be so? Even God can't help one look for or find a missing child so why should the Pope be any better?
It is more logical if she's dead and her parents thought they were receiving absolution by being touched hence blessed by the Pope.

I do apologise. I should have finished my sentence with a : or a ; instead of a . The following sentence says that the purpose of visiting the Pontiff, one of the most famous people in the world, is to create publicity. That would be obvious if one were looking for a missing child, or if one were covering one's tracks with a fog of publicity.

by iluvpelageya 06.03.13 23:22

Hi Iluvpelageya,
I take it you are a Catholic.

Hi juulcy. I have not been a Catholic for many years, although, for some reason, I find myself defending the Church often.

I certainly didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

You have not hurt my feelings, nor do I think you meant it.

Most of the arguments I do have with non-Catholics is over the Sacrament of Penance. The most common misconception is that absolution gives the penitent carte blanche to go out and commit the same sins again, which is not the case at all. The purpose of penance is for the priest to help the penitent's soul on its way to the next life. The seal on the priest's lips is there to make it easy for the penitent to tell the priest what is troubling them. A penitent is not going to confess something if he thinks the priest is going to spread it all over town. The sacrament of penance is a spiritual experience, and a lot of people do not understand this.

by Smokeandmirrors 07.03.13 6:07

[quote="iluvpelageya"]

It is also well documented that they used IVF, and this is still considered to be a mortal sin by the Catholic church.

The IVF is a bit of a red herring. People can practise a religion and break rules that they disagree with. We have all breakfasted with a Sikh who tucks into a plate of bacon and eggs, or a Jew eating a ham bagel, or been out for a drink with a Muslim. Contrary to popular belief, the Catholic Church is not an exclusive club for the righteous. The Catholic Church is for sinners. If you are a saint, you don't need it.

Thanks for your reply iluvpelageya. With the above point, I think what I should have added, was that they more than likely knew that IVF is a mortal sin in the eyes of the Vatican, yet they still went there for whatever reason wanting some personal attention from the Pope, it seems to demonstrate something of a double standard, a contradiction - something which is demonstrated often. Almost like whatever the situation may be, it has to be their way or the highway. This just stood out to me as a further example of "brass neck".

by iluvpelageya 07.03.13 7:35

Thanks for your reply iluvpelageya. With the above point, I think what I should have added, was that they more than likely knew that IVF is a mortal sin in the eyes of the Vatican, yet they still went there for whatever reason wanting some personal attention from the Pope, it seems to demonstrate something of a double standard, a contradiction - something which is demonstrated often. Almost like whatever the situation may be, it has to be their way or the highway. This just stood out to me as a further example of "brass neck".

Hi, Smoke and Mirrors. One has to understand that a religion is something that one comes with. If your parents are, say, Irish or Italian, you will have been baptised, confirmed a Catholic, and, like as not, have been to a Catholic school. That does not mean that you will follow the rules. You will continue to practise Catholicism because you don't want to upset the family. I have a very powerful bass voice, so I was singing in a Catholic choir at one time. At the same time, I was living with my girlfriend. Such things happen. Also, the Church has changed. You may have heard about the notorious Cathechism. You may have heard that you were given passages to learn by rote, and, if you could not recite them, you got walloped with a ruler. I can tell you that it was true. After the Second Vatican Council, they started teaching theology in the schools instead. You then learned that Catholic teaching was in some cases contradictory. Original Sin, for example, was, according to the Cathechism, something everybody is born with because it was committed by Adam and Eve. However, we were later told that the Catholic Church accepted that Adam and Eve never actually existed; and that the Church has no qualms about Evolution, which we were taught in biology lessons. After that, there is a tendency for Catholics - the intelligent ones, at any rate - to find their own way through the rules. The Catholic Church is pro life. But how does this equate with a ban on IVF? So, many childless Catholic couples will go ahead with IVF and be damned. Another thing is that although the Catholic Church is supposed to be the same the world over. In fact Catholicism takes on the traits of the ambient society. In Ireland, it is regarded as part of Irish nationalism, and was a gesture of defiance against the English overlords. In England, it is very easy-going and liberal, with inconvenient rules disregarded. In Scotland, by comparison, I found it more dour, with all the i's dotted and the t's crossed.

So the McCanns's version of Catholicism would not, I should think, be very pedantic. Like you, I would also find the running to the Pope etc, to be out of character. And, again, like most people on this site, I am cynical about their motives.

by Miraflores 07.03.13 8:25

iluvpelageya wrote:
............

So the McCanns's version of Catholicism would not, I should think, be very pedantic. Like you, I would also find the running to the Pope etc, to be out of character. And, again, like most people on this site, I am cynical about their motives.

Excellent summary which accords with what I have learnt from my husband as a 'lapsed Catholic' e.g. major ructions if you stop going to Church, don't send the children to Catholic schools etc. so much easier to go along with the outward form for the sake of family peace.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the Pope bit e.g. when he came to the UK thousands turned out, a good many I suspect were not particularly devote but saw it as a fun day out. Other than that it was part of Clarence's "good marketing".

by aiyoyo 07.03.13 9:41

Miraflores wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:
iluvpelageya wrote:. . . The visit to the Pope is logical if one were looking for a missing child.

Why would that be so? Even God can't help one look for or find a missing child so why should the Pope be any better?
It is more logical if she's dead and her parents thought they were receiving absolution by being touched hence blessed by the Pope.

I think this is to do with Gerry's statement that Madeleine was abducted by paedophiles and the scandals which have beset the Catholic church in recent years.

I do realise the hint. I'm aware that the vatican is rife with paedophiles and weirdos.
I am thinking seeking spiritual help is about self help and that can be done even from one own's backyard without having to go into the most holiest catholic church on planet earth. How is a spiritual guidance going to help find Maddie.

God cant even stop his creation the men from sinning -- even men who revere him and who supposedly are living by his laid down commandments are committing atrocity against young children, so how is going to his representative, the Pope, going to help with anything, let alone find your missing child?

by Liz Eagles 07.03.13 23:13

The McCanns went to Rome (iirc on a private jet) and were welcomed by the 'important' people and we all know the 'Rome is preparing' quote from KM and Gerry's blog detailing and gushing about their visit and how they stopped for photo opportunities for the campaign.

I wonder how many devout Catholic people who went to see the Pope that day had broken hearts, dying relatives, murdered relatives, untold strife etc. stood in that square hoping and praying for spiritual guidance would not even have aspired to sit at the front and have the Pope touch their hand - let alone be recognised by him. As for the butterfly I can't speak about my thoughts on that as my language would be unholy!

Just unbelievably narcissistic imo to crow about how the Pope recognised you and blessed the photo of Madeleine and you went to stay with important people and you wondered what to wear and you couldn't eat breakfast. Read Gerry's blog for that one.

No-one else matters so it seems.

I'm editing to add - if the Mc's were there for spiritual comfort why was it so important to brag about being important?

Just my opinion.

by Guest 10.03.13 10:35

Snip from Sky News today

Cardinal Roger Mahony was stripped of all administrative duties in January over allegations he engaged in a cover-up to protect priests accused of abuse.

Mahony retired after 26 years as the Archbishop of Los Angeles in 2011, but the punishment handed down by his successor is regarded as unprecedented.

It followed the release of thousands of pages of files which highlighted claims against more than one hundred priests dating back decades.

They also showed the attempts made to avoid getting the police involved.

Mahony, an enthusiastic blogger, has been providing a running commentary of developments in the Vatican since arriving to join the conclave.

A petition had called for him not to go.

And Esther Miller, who was abused by a priest when she was a teenager, told Sky News she was angry that Mahony was there at all.

She said: "He is not contrite. As Catholic kids we learn the prayer of contrition and it talks about steps you do to repair the offences.

"He has not done steps to repair the offences, he has not done a full remorseful act. Instead he slaps us in the face and jaunts off to Rome. It is appalling."

Maybe the prayer of contrition was said by the McCanns to the Priest in Praia de Luz.