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See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by Pascal on 22.01.10 11:42

What if she turns up years later having been kept prisoner somewhere? How would you feel about that given that you've written her off. Not one of us here KNOW what happened to that little girl.

My suspicions mean nothing. Until we have some proof then there is possibility.

Personally I think the McCann's actions/behaviour are highly questionable, but I don't give a flying one about them whereas I do care about the missing child. She should be at the forefront of the debate not the parents.

John Hirst should clean up his own house. Has he showed any remorse for what he did to that woman?

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 22.01.10 12:14

No, he said remorse is for the middle class.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by Pascal on 22.01.10 12:53

Nice. A fitting spokesman for a missing child then. Rolling Eyes

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by Kololi on 22.01.10 14:50

Hi
I remember the Butlins thing as we went there as a family when I was a child. Fortunately I was in my early teens and so was off doing my own thing with the pals I made there but I remember seeing the nannies pedalling their bicycles up and down the rows of chalets and ocassionally a screen in the entertainments place would let a parent know their child was crying.

Now bear in mind, life began for me 10 years ago :oops: and I haven't been near a Butlins since going there with my parents, I honestly believed that such a thing would have moved on with the times and wouldn't exist. Blimey back then it was likely that it was a safer world and at the very least we were not as aware as we are now to the dangers that can lurk for children.

What if the child cries 5 minutes after the nannie has checked at the door? What if they have got out of bed and drunk a bottle of something that they shouldn't or stuck their finger somewhere they shouldn't? What if the child has choked on their own vomit and is dead? I know that could occur in a child's own home with mum and dad sleeping peacefully in the room next door but it somehow wouldn't, to me anyway, have the same ring of neglect than if they were out at the pub having left their children alone and it happened.

Maybe I am a tadge too crotchety about leaving children alone but it just seems we have safety drummed into us now. You know the old don't leave valuables on view in your car and who leaves their front door unlocked nowadays and yet children are still being left alone and looked after by some sort of taking chances baby sitting service.

As for Jamie Oliver? Well done that man. There is another place in Cornwall on the Newquay to Truro road called the White House. Sunday lunch there resembles kiddies club with small children running round and squawking while their parents ignore them totally. It seems that some parents think family friendly means let your child run riot and to hell with any other person in the establishment.

Well, having re-read my post I am aware that I am a grouchy middle aged child hater hehe - somebody has to have the job I suppose. Wink God help my two children when they eventually force the Grandma title onto me!!!!!

Take care

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 22.01.10 14:59


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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by Otium on 22.01.10 15:31

@vaguely1 wrote:
It is about the child. Not about the parents. And certainly not about John Hirst, who as far as I can see has carried his obligations to Madeleine so impressively as to publish on his internet site a story about a man having sex with her

Are you referring to what he published on his forum? I really hope that he hasn't published anything else like this since because once is more than enough. That post was totally and utterly reprehensible. Never before have I been as outraged and near to being physically sick upon reading something. I asked John Hirst as to why he would re-publish such a piece. He never replied to me but if my memory serves me correctly, he not only let the digusting post remain, he went on to justify it puke

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 22.01.10 15:43

Yes, I think we're talking about the same 'piece'.

Justification of which was worrying.

When you compare stuff like that with the validity of the nipple rubbing statement my mind boggles at the hypocrisy...

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by Autumn on 22.01.10 17:09

@jack wrote:http://www.watergatebay.co.uk/childrenandfamilies-parents.htm

This is the link. I was quite shocked but it does show what is considered acceptable in the uk.

Shocking and confusing! I thought we had laws in this country that made it illegal to leave very young children alone and unsupervised - anyone who knows anything about toddlers know that they could choke, set fire to something, fall and hurt themselves within seconds of your back being turned. Clearly, the baby listening service would be inadequate in the case of babies and toddlers and age restrictions should be in place ie children over 10. It is not good enough that Jamie Oliver puts a disclaimer on this service by reminding parents that their children remain, ultimately, their responsiblily should anything go wrong. Do parents realize that, using a baby listening service would not ensure that their baby/toddler is safe whilst they dine and, should anythng go wrong, the blame would lie with they and they would have to face the consequences of their actions? No mention of that on Jamie's website.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 22.01.10 17:23

It is considered as supervised. Which is why I always presumed that the McCanns weren't charged with anything.

NOT because I'm a supporter of neglect, but because it's something that is widely acceptable. Even if it isn't for me.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by nemesis/muratfan on 22.01.10 17:38

@Autumn wrote:All the indications so far is that she is dead.

Perhaps you would like to show the evidence that suggests she is dead. That is without quoting books and leaflets that have been shown to be full of lies.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by Autumn on 22.01.10 18:20

@vaguely1 wrote:It is considered as supervised. Which is why I always presumed that the McCanns weren't charged with anything.

NOT because I'm a supporter of neglect, but because it's something that is widely acceptable. Even if it isn't for me.

Have to disagree with you there, certainly no-one I know would dream of leaving their babies and toddlers to be 'minded' by a baby listening service. You would have to be insane to consider that safe.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by nemesis/muratfan on 22.01.10 18:22

Yet lots of people do, British, Americans, Spanish, Portugese, in fact the world over.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 22.01.10 18:27

@Autumn wrote:
@vaguely1 wrote:It is considered as supervised. Which is why I always presumed that the McCanns weren't charged with anything.

NOT because I'm a supporter of neglect, but because it's something that is widely acceptable. Even if it isn't for me.

Have to disagree with you there, certainly no-one I know would dream of leaving their babies and toddlers to be 'minded' by a baby listening service. You would have to be insane to consider that safe.


I would never dream of using them - but I think in order to make an objective decision on whether anybody would use them or not we have to look at how frequently they are offered.

Someone must be using them.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by Autumn on 22.01.10 18:36

Likewise and am gob-smacked that anyone with a functioning brain would consider it safe! I would be interested to know about the legalities as I was under the impression that leaving very young children unsupervised was illegal. Hopefully, Tony or someone else knowledgable on legal matters can explain what the law is on leaving children alone. Fact is, there are people serving jail sentences, and rightly so, for doing just as the McCanns did therefore it clearly is not considered to 'be within the bounds of responsible parenting.'

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by ufercoffy on 22.01.10 18:37

You would think the McCanns would request the banning of such services in light of what happened to Madeleine. Just like films, documentaries and story lines have been banned from being broadcast. After all, the McCanns are such special people that they can command what happens on our cinema and tv screens and even bookshelves.

But maybe they won't ask for baby listening services to be banned to help protect babies and children because they've used them in the past.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by nemesis/muratfan on 22.01.10 18:43

@ufercoffy wrote:You would think the McCanns would request the banning of such services in light of what happened to Madeleine. Just like films, documentaries and story lines have been banned from being broadcast. After all, the McCanns are such special people that they can command what happens on our cinema and tv screens and even bookshelves.

But maybe they won't ask for baby listening services to be banned to help protect babies and children because they've used them in the past.

I seem to remember a film called Gone Baby Gone was released, so not everything is binned by producers. Some storylines from The Bill were postponed.
Other incidents have happened were producers and writers have dropped storylines and such.

Not everything is done for the McCanns

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 22.01.10 18:44

@Autumn wrote:Likewise and am gob-smacked that anyone with a functioning brain would consider it safe! I would be interested to know about the legalities as I was under the impression that leaving very young children unsupervised was illegal. Hopefully, Tony or someone else knowledgable on legal matters can explain what the law is on leaving children alone. Fact is, there are people serving jail sentences, and rightly so, for doing just as the McCanns did therefore it clearly is not considered to 'be within the bounds of responsible parenting.'

I think the law relates to making adequate provision for care. Which seemingly would be covered by someone listening in on your child (as per these services) It is undoubtedly a grey area.

The obvious professional advice is not to leave small children unattended. I presume that these services don't come under 'unattended' as the children are being checked on more than they are during a nights sleep at home.

If the laws specified a distance that parents had to be, or a length of time they were allowed between checks it would have an impact on normal family life.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by twinkle on 22.01.10 18:46

Exactly, whether or not you would use them isn't the issue. A service wouldn't be available if it wasn't used by someone.
Certainly years ago it was most acceptable to use a hotel's listening service. I think this was something to do with the phone being linked up to a switchboard. Now were all these people neglectful for using this.
The same could have happened to any of these parents in the hotel bar. Clearly they weren't neglectful or certainly they wouldn't have been charged with neglect as it was a service provided that wasn't breaking any laws.
Thankfully crimes like this aren't the norm, no comfort for the people who have had children abducted I know. But we need to put it into perspective, rather than argue it from an emotional viewpoint.
Certainly if I did view this from an emotional viewpoint then I would possibly scream that they were neglectful, but I fail to see how this helps discussion move forward.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 22.01.10 18:47

Nemesis, this country has always been sympathetic in broadcasting scheduling. Although I've noticed less so in recent years.

It was very common for the scheduled to be messed with when big events were happening.

I don't believe the McCanns themselves have anything to do with the Coronation Street plot headlines.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by Autumn on 22.01.10 18:47

Exactly! As they so keen to be in the public eye, you would have thought they would be desperate to warn parents about the dangers of relying on baby listening services. They make me sick.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 22.01.10 18:48

@Autumn wrote:Exactly! As they so keen to be in the public eye, you would have thought they would be desperate to warn parents about the dangers of relying on baby listening services. They make me sick.


They make you sick because hotels offer baby listening services?

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by Autumn on 22.01.10 18:55

My post was referring to Ufercoffee's comments wondering why the McCanns have stayed silent on the obvious dangers of baby listening services.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by ufercoffy on 22.01.10 18:59

A hotel is a little different to an apartment with an unlocked patio door right next to a main road.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 22.01.10 18:59

But why is it their duty to call for a banning of them?

If it makes you that angry that parents are making use of them then you could start a petition.

Or maybe do some research with hotels that offer them, see if they will give you an average idea of age of the children that are 'listened'.



ETA, and maybe also ask if they keep accident book records of events that have occurred whilst these services are being utilised.

It might be an interesting foray.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by Autumn on 22.01.10 19:04

@vaguely1 wrote:But why is it their duty to call for a banning of them?

If it makes you that angry that parents are making use of them then you could start a petition.

Or maybe do some research with hotels that offer them, see if they will give you an average idea of age of the children that are 'listened'.



ETA, and maybe also ask if they keep accident book records of events that have occurred whilst these services are being utilised.

It might be an interesting foray.

Ok I take your point, Vaguely. As Ufercoffee points out, the McCanns were not in a hotel, they were some distance from their children and had left them at serious risk in an unlocked apartment.

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