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See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 21.01.10 14:20

@Kololi wrote:Actually Vaguely that is a good thought.

I think several of us are miffed by the scenario of two parents neglecting their children and one disappears, probably abducted by perverts according to her father, but no justice seemingly being dished out.

If Madeleine was to be found, and let's hope that still is a possibility, and Social Services or the Police then take action against the McCanns I would guess that us moaners Wink would feel that it was fair and reasonable and that they were facing what they deserved for the choices that they made and what ordinary folks are likely to face under similar circumstances.

Of course, would the McCann supporters still, in that scenario, scream that they had been punished enough and now Madeleine needed them so, therefore, they should be free to carry on about their business without need to face consequences for their choices?

One of the areas of law that I had to study for my diploma was tort; negligence. One thing I learned is that there are certain presumed relationships where a duty of care will be applied by the courts and does not need proving. I think the McCanns didn't give a hoot about their duty of care towards the three children that night when they compared it to a bit of good fun with their adult mates.

I seem to recall that it was Mr Mitchell who seemed to think that all British mums and dads put their "me time" before the safety of their children and so, therefore, what was all the fuss about as we all do it!

Take care


Mitchell is an arse, but I think he was referring to the fact that as a culture we tend to have earlier bed times for children - that we bathe them, put them to bed, and then sit down and enjoy time with our partners.

I can't actually argue with that. Even though it was him that said it.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 21.01.10 14:28

@Autumn wrote:

says the author of Supporting Child Neglect.


Please provide a link to this.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by Autumn on 21.01.10 14:37

From the author of Hindleygate

Explain.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 21.01.10 14:43

Autumn, I'm not playing your games. You, and everyone on here knows what you said about the Moors Murderers.

Now you tell me where I've supported child neglect and then get back to talking about the case, rather than just pick, pick, picking my posts apart.

I'm sure everyone would be grateful if you could see your way to doing that.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by Autumn on 21.01.10 18:48

Vaguely, if you believe the abduction theory, it follows that you must also believe that Madeleine and her twin siblings were left alone unsupervised. The McCanns neglected their children and, by rights, should have faced charges same as anyone else who had behaved as they have. Had they been truly remorseful, they would have campaigned to alert others of the dangers of leaving young children alone rather than hide behind Clarrie's crass comments. Raising funds to pay their mortgage does not go any way to convince me of their innocence. To support the McCanns is to support child neglect - simple as.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by nemesis/muratfan on 21.01.10 18:49

And supporting John Hirst and what he stands for is supporting Axe Murderers i guess then.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 21.01.10 18:52

@Autumn wrote:Vaguely, if you believe the abduction theory, it follows that you must also believe that Madeleine and her twin siblings were left alone unsupervised. The McCanns neglected their children and, by rights, should have faced charges same as anyone else who had behaved as they have. Had they been truly remorseful, they would have campaigned to alert others of the dangers of leaving young children alone rather than hide behind Clarrie's crass comments. Raising funds to pay their mortgage does not go any way to convince me of their innocence. To support the McCanns is to support child neglect - simple as.

So choosing to let justice takes it course and wait for the police to arrest and charge a suspect/s and put them through a court of law and secure a conviction makes me a supporter of child neglect.

Can I just be clear that that's what you're saying?

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by jack on 21.01.10 18:53

Re neglect...
Prior to the McCanns going to PDL and for six months after Maddie disappeared, Mark Warner were advertising a baby listening service throughout there European resorts on their website. you would put the kids to bed and a member of their satff would listen at the door every half hour while you went out and enjoyed yourself. This service wasn't available at PDL but it was reported many families did what the McCanns did. The neglect has to be seen in context.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by Autumn on 21.01.10 19:01

@jack wrote:Re neglect...
Prior to the McCanns going to PDL and for six months after Maddie disappeared, Mark Warner were advertising a baby listening service throughout there European resorts on their website. you would put the kids to bed and a member of their satff would listen at the door every half hour while you went out and enjoyed yourself. This service wasn't available at PDL but it was reported many families did what the McCanns did. The neglect has to be seen in context.

There can never be a reason for leaving very young children alone. When they realized there was no baby listening service, they should have stayed with their children or taken them with them. Anyone with half a brain cell knows of the many risks of leaving young children alone - their decision to go out on the lash with their mates was WRONG.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 21.01.10 19:03

When they discovered there was no baby listening service?

I wouldn't have you down as someone who would think a baby listening service was good enough.

Bloody terrible things.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by jack on 21.01.10 19:18

Autumn,
Last summer I stayed at the Watergate Bay Hotel in Cornwall. Across the large car park, near the beach,(about 100 yards) is the Restaurant 15 owned by Jamie Oliver. Well, that loveley family man Jamie does not allow children under 12 in his restaurant after 7 pm but all is not lost . The hotel has a baby listening service .Put the kids to bed and they will listen out for them. They do ask you to return and check on them regularly as well, best to be on the safe side. I know it's hard to believe but it's all on the web sites.

This is the cultural difference Amaral and the pj did not understand.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by Autumn on 21.01.10 19:29

I would have thought baby listening services would not be legally acceptable in the UK - maybe Tony will clarify the child protection laws when hes next on. Have to say, Jamie Oliver seems to setting a bad example with his irresponsible rules regarding his restaurant. Sadly, many eating establishments in the UK are not child-friendly. Things need to change, families should consider boycotting places that wont allow them to take their children with them to eat.
Anyway, thanks for that, I'l check out the website :)

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by nemesis/muratfan on 21.01.10 19:35

@Autumn wrote:I would have thought baby listening services would not be legally acceptable in the UK - maybe Tony will clarify the child protection laws when hes next on. Have to say, Jamie Oliver seems to setting a bad example with his irresponsible rules regarding his restaurant. Sadly, many eating establishments in the UK are not child-friendly. Things need to change, families should consider boycotting places that wont allow them to take their children with them to eat.
Anyway, thanks for that, I'l check out the website :)

Butlins offer a baby listening service.

They used to have a service where the Nannies went and listened to the doors, no crying no reporting to the parents. However some did go missing as they wandered out looking for mum and dad, luckily they were found.

So are you saying that this kind of service is safer?

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by jack on 21.01.10 19:37

http://www.watergatebay.co.uk/childrenandfamilies-parents.htm

This is the link. I was quite shocked but it does show what is considered acceptable in the uk.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 21.01.10 19:43

I think nowadays the baby listening service listen in via phone or baby monitor.....rather than the old way that a lot of our parents probably used where someone would go and listen at the door every half hour.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 21.01.10 19:44

Jack, as per your link.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by Pascal on 21.01.10 21:17

[quote="vaguely1"]
@Kololi wrote:You make a very fair point Vaguely.

I struggle, as it seems simplyme does too, however, with this idea that we should be all forgiving of the McCanns part in this. Whilst I would not put them on an equal footing with the guy that you speak of, I find it extremely distasteful the efforts by some to whitewash their part in Madeleine's disappearance.

If she has been abducted and it transpires that some pervert had been pleasuring himself on her and eventually she had been cruelly murdered would all those that scream from the rooftops that Mr and Mrs McCann have paid a price already not have one little part of them that would stop and think it might not have occurred had they not left those children alone?

They do have to live with their actions day in and day out and it must be very difficult for them but it was likely that it was avoidable. I think I might have found more compassion for them had they banged on Parliaments door and demanded a law to be introduced that clearly sets out what is acceptable and what isn't with regards leaving children alone so that it at least lessens the likelihood of other parents and most certainly other children from having to go through this in the future.

The nonsense about responsible parenting and every parent does it is, in my opinion, damage limitation for their own reputations.

Take care


Thank you Kololi.

My thoughts on this - I don't obsessively watch interviews with/on/about the McCanns, but even I've seen two occasions where they say they made a mistake in leaving the children alone that night.

I don't think we need a march on Parliament to establish whether it's right to leave small children on their own, because it isn't. There are clear guidelines on the matter written by experts, these are available for people who need to be told what to do.

If people leave their children, having guidelines won't stop them doing it. There are already laws to prosecute people who leave their children in positions of danger.

I can't speak for what was going through the head of the McCanns that night - but if I had to think why two intelligent people could leave their children in the apartment seemingly without concern it would be that the apartment was within view of where they were sitting - perhaps this has some bearing on their mindset.

I've never even used a babysitter, other than direct family, so I'm not chanting the mantra that Autumn claims she hears, and I've never heard anyone else chant it either.

Having said that - It was done. the children were left. the parents haven't been prosecuted. So does dwelling on it help find the truth of what happened to Madeleine? Or does dwelling on it just cause blind alleys and prevent people from looking further.

I think the latter.

And I think that's proven by the fact that people welcome and accept the intervention of a man who has callously taken a life and shows no remorse. There is no perspective any more.[/quote]

Very well said.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by twinkle on 21.01.10 23:37

@Kololi wrote:Actually Vaguely that is a good thought.

I think several of us are miffed by the scenario of two parents neglecting their children and one disappears, probably abducted by perverts according to her father, but no justice seemingly being dished out.

If Madeleine was to be found, and let's hope that still is a possibility, and Social Services or the Police then take action against the McCanns I would guess that us moaners Wink would feel that it was fair and reasonable and that they were facing what they deserved for the choices that they made and what ordinary folks are likely to face under similar circumstances.

Of course, would the McCann supporters still, in that scenario, scream that they had been punished enough and now Madeleine needed them so, therefore, they should be free to carry on about their business without need to face consequences for their choices?

One of the areas of law that I had to study for my diploma was tort; negligence. One thing I learned is that there are certain presumed relationships where a duty of care will be applied by the courts and does not need proving. I think the McCanns didn't give a hoot about their duty of care towards the three children that night when they compared it to a bit of good fun with their adult mates.

I seem to recall that it was Mr Mitchell who seemed to think that all British mums and dads put their "me time" before the safety of their children and so, therefore, what was all the fuss about as we all do it!

Take care

I think they thought that their parenting was more than adequate on that night, maybe on others.
But they certainly put their own needs before their childrens by the decisions they made.
I struggle with the decisions they made that week, leaving small children for any length of time doesn't sit well with me at all. I have looked at it from a babylistening point of view, and yes they possibly provided a better service than one that could be provided by a hotel.
I can't condemn them for these descisions. It highlights in the extreme how as parents we do sometimes make very bad calls.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 22.01.10 7:42

Very succinctly put Twinkle. As I tried hopelessly to say before, you don't have to approve of it or condone to accept it happened.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by ufercoffy on 22.01.10 8:47

nemesis wrote:And supporting John Hirst and what he stands for is supporting Axe Murderers i guess then.

John did the crime and did the time and was deemed fit to be released back into the wild after rehabilitation. Now he's putting his knowledge to use to find justice for Madeleine.

Personally I don't care who gets justice for Madeleine as long as it happens.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by Cath on 22.01.10 9:53

@ufercoffy wrote:
nemesis wrote:And supporting John Hirst and what he stands for is supporting Axe Murderers i guess then.

John did the crime and did the time and was deemed fit to be released back into the wild after rehabilitation. Now he's putting his knowledge to use to find justice for Madeleine.

Personally I don't care who gets justice for Madeleine as long as it happens.

I can't see how declaring her death is getting her justice. He's just another attention seeker.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by Autumn on 22.01.10 9:57

All the indications so far is that she is dead.

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by ufercoffy on 22.01.10 10:10

Inyx wrote:
@ufercoffy wrote:
nemesis wrote:And supporting John Hirst and what he stands for is supporting Axe Murderers i guess then.

John did the crime and did the time and was deemed fit to be released back into the wild after rehabilitation. Now he's putting his knowledge to use to find justice for Madeleine.

Personally I don't care who gets justice for Madeleine as long as it happens.

I can't see how declaring her death is getting her justice. He's just another attention seeker.

If you read his post properly you will see he's trying to force an Inquest.

This is what he says in his post:

"The correct legal position, in my view, is that Madeleine can be declared dead and a death certificate issued. Therefore, I am applying for this. There are two ways the authorities can respond, simply issue the death certificate and be done with it, or order an inquest with a coroner and jury. Obviously, I would prefer the latter. "

I don't think it's a bad thing to have an Inquest with a coroner and Jury, do you?

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by vaguely1 on 22.01.10 11:06

@ufercoffy wrote:
nemesis wrote:And supporting John Hirst and what he stands for is supporting Axe Murderers i guess then.

John did the crime and did the time and was deemed fit to be released back into the wild after rehabilitation. Now he's putting his knowledge to use to find justice for Madeleine.

Personally I don't care who gets justice for Madeleine as long as it happens.

But having a desire to declare a child dead, who just may be holed up in a house in Portugal with a paedophile, doesn't seem like justice for that child to me.

I just wonder what all this desire writing her off is all about.

Call me soft, but if there's even the slightest chance that she's live, then there's the slightest chance that she can hear the news - how does hearing the fact that someone she had never even met is working to have her declared dead count as justice.

It is about the child. Not about the parents. And certainly not about John Hirst, who as far as I can see has carried his obligations to Madeleine so impressively as to publish on his internet site a story about a man having sex with her

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Re: See you in Court Mr and Mrs McCann

Post by ufercoffy on 22.01.10 11:18

I see where you're coming from Vaguely but as he said he wants to force an Inquest, to have Madeleine's disappearance investigated properly with a coroner and jury.

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