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Why Liars Issue Challenges

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Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by lj on 17.09.11 16:20

There is an interesting post at statement analysis about liars and why they are stupid enough to continue getting in the news iso shutting up and hoping it all goes away.



Though it is not about the McCanns it discusses a lot of recognozable patters.



http://seamusoriley.blogspot.com/2011/09/why-liars-issue-challenges.html



The conclusion is one we have seen over and over again. now let's hope it will fully come true:


Liars cannot abide the 'insult' of not being believed and will go public, at their own detriment, to defend themselves. Their pride of a lifetime of successful lies leads to the inevitable fall.

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by Invinoveritas on 17.09.11 18:09

well said lj,

one can but hope that there is finally a fairy tale with a happy ending

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by Angelique on 17.09.11 23:30

lj

Thank you for the link will read it through. It's something to do with the ego I think.

Yes this sort of challenge has been used - even by Gerry:

"Find the Body; Prove We Killed Her"

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by jd on 18.09.11 1:12

They are so far into the lie that their only option is to continue with it. And if people are getting to the truth then use CR and counter act using the media. Its very logical

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by Joss on 19.09.11 23:16

@Angelique wrote:lj

Thank you for the link will read it through. It's something to do with the ego I think.

Yes this sort of challenge has been used - even by Gerry:

"Find the Body; Prove We Killed Her"



It's almost as if this statement by G. McCann, is a "dare you to"In as much as dare you to find the body and prove we did something! A very bold atatement, and an incriminating one as well it sounds like. Does G. McCann know something the rest of us don't? Does he know for sure her remains will never be found and why? Be cause after 4 yrs. there won't be much of a body to find anymore.

Usually people complicit in a crime will screw up at some stage, and leave us saying WTF! Seen this with other cases too.

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by Zelina on 04.10.11 12:22

This reminds me of the convicted killer nurse Colin Norris.

He issued such challenges to the police "obviously if somebody was going to kill someone, they wouldn't leave their signature, would they?" and "So the fact that I'm a nurse and I was in a hospital and someone died, that's the only thing that you've got?"
You can watch a documentary about his crimes on YouTube, it's called Real Crime - the angel of death. There are many parallels with the Madeleine case, not least in the personalities of the people involved.

I find some of the things the police said about him interesting: "He actually was unwittingly helping us...with his lies and what he thought was being smart and clever and arrogant. They would all work against him eventually."

"He did come across as very arrogant, very confident and could be very very aggressive in certain situations."

and a personal favourite:It wasn't a case of Norris saying 'I haven't done this', it was more a case of him saying 'YOU WILL NEVER PROVE THIS'

Does that remind you of anyone?

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by Angelique on 04.10.11 21:08

Have just heard on the evening news - BBC - that an expert has cast doubt on this conviction(Colin Norris) and who I presume was his Mother said that they would Appeal the conviction?

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by Zelina on 06.10.11 10:04

Indeed and this is why I was thinking about his case while reading this. Another parallel is how virulent some bloggers have been for/against Mr Norris.

I don't want to write too much about this though since there may be an appeal

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by tigger on 15.02.12 16:50

I came across this topic just now, must have missed it the first time round because it belongs in the Forensic Linguistics if anything does.
Brilliant link in the first post, well worth reading.

Can anyone draw a parallel with any of the TM statements? There's such a wide choice!

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by Spaniel on 15.02.12 17:45

Thanks lj, I'm looking forward to reading the link later, love reading stuff like that.

It's a tenuous link I know, and if I'm hijacking the thread, please delete. I was though watching Jeremy Kyle the other morning and a participant on there reminded me so much of a certain person, (attitude not content, although a liar too) I wanted to duck behind the sofa. Remember when asked whether he knew Murat?

5.10 I believe he makes his entrance. http://www.itv.com/itvplayer/video/?Filter=306112

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by tigger on 15.02.12 18:19

@Spaniel wrote:Thanks lj, I'm looking forward to reading the link later, love reading stuff like that.

It's a tenuous link I know, and if I'm hijacking the thread, please delete. I was though watching Jeremy Kyle the other morning and a participant on there reminded me so much of a certain person, (attitude not content, although a liar too) I wanted to duck behind the sofa. Remember when asked whether he knew Murat?

5.10 I believe he makes his entrance. http://www.itv.com/itvplayer/video/?Filter=306112

I can't get that here, it's abroad over here you know. No BBC player or anything... don't have a TV so am spared the likes of JV.

Here is a snippet from the first post (link) to get you going:


"Did you kill your wife?" giving us an opportunity to analyze his answer to this great question. It is a great question since my reference point is modern media in which investigative journalism has become rare, and soft questions are instead asked in hopes of 'landing' the big interview.

He said, "I would never hurt her..." which shows:

a. He did not deny killing her.
b. He used the words "would never" which is not past tense and is not a denial.
c. He changed "kill" to "hurt", which is minimizing language.

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by Daisy on 15.02.12 18:54

I like this quote from lj's opening post.

"Liars cannot abide the 'insult' of not being
believed and will go public, at their own detriment, to defend
themselves. Their pride of a lifetime of successful lies leads to the
inevitable fall"

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by Guest on 15.02.12 18:58

Its a bit like:

There is no evidence to suggest or prove

rather than

I/we are completely innocent.

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by tigger on 15.02.12 19:05

There is one question which is impossible to answer with yes or no without incriminating oneself:

'Have you stopped beating your wife?'

Yes - you used to be a wife beater.
No - you still are.

I'd love to find a way to formulate a question which GM would find equally impossible to answer.

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by tigger on 15.02.12 19:26

the blog (ref in first post here)
I though it's easier to post in full - makes it easier to quote parts from it.
I can see a lot of similarities here, it's a little confusing that most of the cases mean nothing to me but there are some interesting parallels.

What I found particularly interesting is the comment on the attitude of journalists asking soft questions in the hope of getting a 'big' interview.

SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 2011

Why Liars Issue Challenges
Why do liars issue challenges or taunt law enforcement? Why don't they leave 'well enough' alone and get on with their lives? Why do they continue to speak out and draw more attention to themselves?
The answer is not difficult to find.
Having gotten away with something, or at least how it might appear, why should a liar continue to draw attention to himself (or herself) after the fact? Why push the issue? If the situation is such that the heat is off of them (even if it is just an appearance of the attention off of them) why bother?

Why not just let it go?

Josh Powell comes to mind but is this the pattern that I am referencing?
He refused to cooperate with police in the disappearance of his then wife, Susan Cox (since speaking with Susan's family on Crime Wire, and hearing of the awful attacks the Cox family have received from Josh Powell and his father, Steve Powell, it is out of respect for them that I use the Cox name in correlation to Susan), and told the police and media that at midnight, he took his toddler (2) and his 4 year old "camping" during a snow storm. As ridiculous sounding as the alibi was, he then utterly stopped speaking to police. The public (and police) knew that Josh Powell had reason to be silent. He has the information needed to recover Susan and as long as he is silent, he makes law enforcement's job that much more difficult.

Josh Powell is not intelligent but he did feel the sting of insult when people ridiculed his alibi.
He read everywhere how stupid he sounded in his short answer to media about packing up little ones in a snowstorm for camping. He might as well have said that his wife was abducted by aliens. It would have been just as stupid.
He didn't like what he read. Yet, he remained silent and finally said, "they underestimate my discipline" which showed what most of us know about liars: they hold others in contempt.

He then spoke, and his words gave him away. One CBS reporter was sharp enough to ask him,
"Did you kill your wife?" giving us an opportunity to analyze his answer to this great question. It is a great question since my reference point is modern media in which investigative journalism has become rare, and soft questions are instead asked in hopes of 'landing' the big interview.

He said, "I would never hurt her..." which shows:

a. He did not deny killing her.
b. He used the words "would never" which is not past tense and is not a denial.
c. He changed "kill" to "hurt", which is minimizing language.

These three elements are often present in guilty statements regularly. Why?

Because when someone is editing their own words (freely speaking) it is rare to lie directly due to the internal stress of lying. An innocent person would say "I did not kill my wife" or "I did not kill Susan" easily, and without additional language. The innocent person would not have a psychological need to minimize or soften the language.

Police and the public believe that he killed Susan and he knows this and was able to, for quite some time, remain silent, but not completely silent: it is human nature to talk. Lying is stressful and is rare, as most people, instead of directly lying, will avoid a lie by withholding information.

In fact, look at Powell's statement again: he is likely not lying in his response.
"I would not hurt her..." is likely true. If he has already killed her, then "would not" being a future or conditional tense, is truthful. Perhaps he thinks to himself, "I wait every day to get caught; this is killing me. If I had to do it all over again, I would divorce rather than kill her" and, in this sense, it is true that he "would not" hurt her...

We see this in theft and drug allegations regularly as the subject is remorseful; remorseful often due to being caught; not at the action.
"Did you steal the money?
"I would not steal the money" is close to our Formula for the Reliable Denial:

1. First Person Singular. A subject must say "I" in order to own the statement.
2. Past Tense Verb. It happened in the past, and the verb must reflect this. "I did not steal..."
3. Event Specific. The reliable denial must match the allegation. Any deviation from the specific event will nullify the formula, including disparaging words like "I didn't steal no f***ing money!" Here, "the money" is specific money.

Question: "DId you sexually molest the boy who stayed at your house?"
Answer: "I did not harm the child"

Note that "sexually molest" has been changed to "harm" by the subject. Many pedophiles believe that if they do not inflict physical pain on a child, the child has not been "harmed" but note that the subject did not answer the question. When a subject avoids answering a question, the question is sensitive to the subject.

If you did not steal, nor kill, nor molest a child, the question posed to you may be very emotionally upsetting, but it is not "sensitive" and your answer will not contain sensitivity indicators. This is true

1. Liars think it makes them look honest and...
2. Liars cannot bear others thinking they are liars.

Pride and the inevitable fall are organically linked.

In the case of Josh Powell, his pride was hurt so he spoke out, as did his father. They buried themselves and as they attacked Susan, who cannot speak for herself, they revealed more about their own lives, upbringing, and evil than they ever thought possible, and made public sentiment far worse than it was, against them. Not intelligent. Powell lives every day of his life wondering "is this the day? Is this the day they find her? Is this the day they knock at my door and put me in handcuffs?"

Waiting to be caught will slowly erode away the life of the criminal. The pleasure of driving the stolen Mercedes is lost as the driver waits to be caught. At first, the stolen bread tastes sweet, but later, the bitterness settles in.

Roger Clemons was so cocky in his lies that he went on "60 Minutes" and issued a public challenge: "if I had all of these needles and things, then who supplied them? Who brought them to me? I wish he would come forth..." and on he went, thinking how truthful he sounded in his boldness.
So, what happened? Clemons issued the challenge for the guy who supplied him to come forward and, surprise, surprise, Brian McNamee, his supplier, came forward.
Why would Roger Clemons do such a stupid thing? He did it for the same reason a baseball player would point his finger at Congress and lie, and why the President of the United States would wag his finger at the American public and lie:

They hold others in contempt.

They think they are smarter than others and expect to be believed.

Pride and the fall are organically linked.

We can debate the merits of whether Congress should be investigating this or not, but Roger Clemons would have been much better off telling the truth. His boldness in lying only revealed that this is something he has done successfully since childhood.

Liars live life by paying for communication with counterfeit currency. Those that become successful at it cannot bear the thought that someone does not believe them. Since they cannot abide being called a liar, they strike out, even if it is to their own detriment.

The case of missing 13 year old Hailey Dunn comes to mind.
Why does her mother continue to post publicly and taunt law enforcement?

Billie Jean Dunn heard her mother in law say that she believed, in early January, that Shawn Adkins, the mother's boyfriend, raped and killed Hailey. Her response was telling. She did not say, "What? Are you insane? My daughter is alive! Shawn didn't do any such thing!" and react in shock or disgust.

Instead she said, "well, nobody told me that..." with the flat affect that told the public that this mother was not surprised to hear her daughter spoken of as deceased. One of the guests remarked on the mother's affect and lack of response to Adkins disparaging the victim claiming Hailey was "promiscuous" with the guest saying "if that was my daughter he was talking about, I would..." with the normal, maternal protective rage that Billie Jean Dunn lacked.

I have been recently asked about the mother's regional dialect.
Some seek to dismiss analysis, reasoning that "regional dialect discounts analysis" which isn't true. Just as text speak is a form of communication, so is regional dialect, and as such, like text speak, can be analyzed. It is communication being analyzed via words.
"There ain't no way I ain't gonna..." is a form of communication, in spite of education level or regional dialect (way of speaking) and as such, is not measured in the 'double negative' foolishness of changing a meaning. It is taken as a whole.

"It is wicked cold today" is often heard here. Note the principle:

"It is wicked cold today" shows the word "wicked" as sensitive. The shortest sentence is "It is cold today" but the word "wicked", regionally, means "very" and if the subject said,
"It is very cold" or "I am very happy" it would be noted with the word "very" in analysis.

Analysis is not done by cement blocks, but is pliable. Think about "I think that guy is cool" taken literally? His body temperature is lower than others? Also, think about texting with iPhone spell corrector: the spelling sometimes gives new words and changes meaning in comical ways. Statement Analysis adjusts and is fluid.

After lying on TV, lying to police, using drugs to fool a polygraph, failing a polygraph, getting caught with all kinds of deviant porn, and then arrested for lying to police, the mother remains free. Why speak out? Had Roger Clemons not gone on "20/20" he may not be in the trouble he is in today.

Since the mother and boyfriend, in spite of all the released information by police, have not been arrested:

Why would she continue to post on Facebook things that cause readers to question her?

Recently she posted about bestiality where she talks about receiving large quantities of it and spoke of it in the present tense. This allows readers insight. When she insults, she uses sexual terms. Since her mother in law called this a sexual homicide, and 109,000 pornographic images (including child pornography) were found, her insults and name calling employ sexual language; revealing to the public, the world in which Hailey Dunn grew up in.
Why post?

Here is why:

Liars hold you, the target audience, in contempt. They presuppose that you are not smart enough to see through the lie.


Dr. Phil recently said, "no one likes being lied to. It makes you angry. People are angry that you lie..." (to Cindy Anthony).

Cindy, when she speaks, uses language that shows that her deception (or intent to deceive) is deliberate. This is why she is seen, like all liars, as prideful. The pride within a liar, causes the liar to say incredibly stupid things.

Scott Peterson is a good example.

While on national television he talked about a phone conversation with John Walsh.

Scott Peterson knew that this was on national television and someone, somewhere, is going to ask John Walsh about it, yet he still said it. It is stupid. (Later, John Walsh fumed saying that he had not, nor would ever, speak to Scott Peterson).

In order for Cindy, Scott Peterson, or any other to lie, she must have an expectation that you, the audience or recipient of the lie, will believe it; therefore, you are not as smart as the liar. This is the contempt.

Picture Casey Anthony at only 22 years of age, walking down the corridor of Universal towards "her office"...counting off each step, confident in her own ability, to lie to these seasoned veterans of law enforcement. It sounds stupid because it is stupid, but they do it, over and over and over.

Hailey Dunn's mother is now "demanding" that law enforcement get off their "a*****"" and so on, issuing challenges, and ridiculing law enforcement.

Why?

Why poke a sleeping tiger?

Susan Cox is going to be found. Laci Peterson was going to be found and was. Kyron Horman is going to be found. Cases that have lots of media exposure keep people searching. Terri Horman stays out of the spotlight and remains free. Scott Peterson couldn't abide the public thinking he was a liar. Josh Powell could not abide what the public said about him.


Hailey Dunn is going to be found and arrests are going to be made. Think, however, of those being taunted and insulted.

No one likes being lied to and no one likes to be insulted.

What Billie Dunn is doing and what Josh Powell is doing is the same thing:

They are filling law enforcement with resolve and this behavior will be remembered when the time for justice comes.

Dunn, she is emboldened by the fact that law enforcement has not yet recovered Hailey's remains and her boldness can be seen in progressive steps:

First, she denied even seeing the boyfriend. She said 'law enforcement told me he failed the polygraph' and that she wasn't speaking to him and publicly said, "Shawn needs to talk" to police. However, the public saw her, at various locations, and she was with him while telling the public otherwise.

She then said that she had only "text" him and were broken up though statement analysis said otherwise, so when she told a radio host that she was not the kind of mother who would be with the suspect in her daughter's disappearance, the host, at first, believed her. Then she lied to police about his whereabouts (he was hiding in her house) and was arrested. They both grew so emboldened as to show up at the 6 month vigil (as she had said she would at the 3 month mark) reminding the public of Scott Peterson at the vigil for Laci.

She now has reached the point where she ridicules law enforcement on Facebook.

This is the pattern of increasing boldness, and like all patterns of pride, the fall cannot be far away.

Roger Clemons issued his challenge, and got it.
Scott Peterson made his boast, and got his response.
Cindy Anthony continues to profit from lies, but will never bring back her granddaughter and must live each day knowing she perverted justice.
Josh Powell sweats out each and every day, waiting for Susan's remains to be found.

Dunn and Adkins live each day knowing what happened, and wondering if someone, somewhere, perhaps walking a dog, or even a child playing, will stumble upon remains and tests will show that not only do they have Hailey, but they have evidence.

How close will her remains be found to where Shawn Adkins' cell phone showed him to be?

Can Dunn be certain that when this day comes, for it will come, that Adkins will not roll over on her? For this reason, she can never be free of him. But what if Adkins wishes to break up with her?

The doubts are often triggers for angry responses, but more than anything else, it is that sociopaths lie, from childhood, and all habitual liars rage with insult, and cannot abide anyone who dares call them "liar." Rather than dismiss the one who says "you are lying" as insignificant, it rages within them and causes them to speak out, threaten, and rage.

All the while, they bring more attention to their own selves, and not to whatever cause they wish to be seen as highlighting.

When Scott Peterson spoke, who did Scott Peterson emphasize? When Peterson spoke, he spoke of Peterson (the same that Drew Peterson did). When Josh Powell spoke out, he disparaged Susan Cox, bringing more attention onto himself. When Billie Dunn spoke, she brought more attention to herself as the recipient of large quantities of bestiality. Note:

She had no reason to bring up the topic. Even if asked, (since it was in the press), why not avoid it?

Why did Scott Peterson feel the need to bring in the name of John Walsh?

Why did Roger Clemons go on "20/20"?

Josh Powell was amazing in his silence, but it could not last.

Dunn even told people that her life was perfect when Hailey up and disappeared. What is that? It is a subtle blaming of the victim, something the guilty conscience does to ease its pain. This is why the 3rd element of our formula for reliability must be "event specific" without anything added to the event.

We hear this often in theft and in child abuse cases. In child abuse cases, the perpetrator finds a way to, even subtly, insult or blame the victim.


"I didn't steal any of that company's damn money!"
Note how the stolen money is given an additional word? The stolen money is now given a sensitivity indicator. It is not "money" but "damned" money. Indeed.

Liars cannot abide the 'insult' of not being believed and will go public, at their own detriment, to defend themselves. Their pride of a lifetime of successful lies leads to the inevitable fall.






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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by rainbow-fairy on 15.02.12 20:20

tigger, thank you for resurrecting this thread... Very interesting...
The 'I would never hurt her...' reminds me very much of the 'there is no evidence of harm to madeleine'.
Linguistically very significant. Have you pasted this into forensic linguistics thread?

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by aquila on 15.02.12 21:13

Fantastic thread Tigger. I'm sure we could post a list of challenges offered up by the Mc's which would be a very interesting thing to do.

'ask the dogs Sandra' is a classic. It's an impossible question to answer and IMO extremely arrogant.

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by tigger on 15.02.12 21:17

@rainbow-fairy wrote:tigger, thank you for resurrecting this thread... Very interesting...
The 'I would never hurt her...' reminds me very much of the 'there is no evidence of harm to madeleine'.
Linguistically very significant. Have you pasted this into forensic linguistics thread?

Just going through it, it is rather a long post but I love this bit: His boldness in lying only revealed that this is something he has done successfully since childhood.

I know people who lie habitually, even when it's not at all necessary. It's almost a form of power for them, they can create any reality they choose.

This is another one that's familiar:

1. First Person Singular. A subject must say "I" in order to own the statement.
2. Past Tense Verb. It happened in the past, and the verb must reflect this. "I did not steal..."
3. Event Specific. The reliable denial must match the allegation. Any deviation from the specific event will nullify the formula, including disparaging words like "I didn't steal no f***ing money!" Here, "the money" is specific money.

From the transcript (mccannfiles) of the Australian interview in july 2011.
Quote (dr. Roberts' comments)
"Did you kill your daughter?" asks the lady journalist. Gerry answers:

"No. That's an emphatic 'no.'
A wonderful example of the subject NOT owning the statement! All the rest that follows is textbook denial. (page 4 or so of FL topic).

Yes, I should have moved the blog there - just didn't want to resurrect one of my own topics...

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starter for ten?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 15.02.12 21:48

@tigger wrote:There is one question which is impossible to answer with yes or no without incriminating oneself:

'Have you stopped beating your wife?'

Yes - you used to be a wife beater.
No - you still are.

I'd love to find a way to formulate a question which GM would find equally impossible to answer.
I've got one:
Q: Gerry, are you ever going to stop lying about the events of May 3rd, 2007?
GM: Yes (We've been lying all along)
GM: No (We're just going to carry on lying)

How's that as a starter for ten?

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by aquila on 15.02.12 22:00

Here's another

Q. Do you take responsibility for the fact that your daughter would still be with you had you not left her alone in an apartment in a foreign country while you went out to dine with your friends?

A. Yes (I'm a crap parent)

A. No (I'm a crap human being)

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by Daisy on 15.02.12 22:30

I'd like to ask the McCann's whether or not the whereabouts of their daughter is a mystery - just a simple yes or no will do.

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by tigger on 16.02.12 7:57

Great questions there, impossible to answer with one word!

Here's another quote from the Seamus blog:
Liars live life by paying for communication with counterfeit currency. Those that become successful at it cannot bear the thought that someone does not believe them. Since they cannot abide being called a liar, they strike out, even if it is to their own detriment.

Now is that an explanation of the vindictive attitude of the McCanns? CoMM, Amaral in particular? Nothing will do but total annihilation?

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by aquila on 16.02.12 8:22

"Liars hold you, the target audience, in contempt. They presuppose that you are not smart enough to see through the lie."

This about sums it up for me. The sighing and awkward body language when asked questions in interviews that are not on the personal agenda. The unwillingness to answer questions, cast them aside, attack them and the (seamless!!!) return to the agenda for the public consumption of the pea-brains and to put that stupid interviewer in their place for asking such a stupid question.

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by C.Edwards on 16.02.12 8:55

Apologies if it's already mentioned elsewhere but the same guy did analysis on Kate's diary:

part 1 (don't think there's been a part 2 yet)

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Re: Why Liars Issue Challenges

Post by tigger on 16.02.12 9:11

@C.Edwards wrote:Apologies if it's already mentioned elsewhere but the same guy did analysis on Kate's diary:

part 1 (don't think there's been a part 2 yet)

No, I didn't know that, thanks. Waiting for part 2 with bated breath. Brilliant find!

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