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So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by Ollie on 30.08.11 21:28

Brilliant posts from Me again.



Oh and I'm the real Tony Bennett.

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What's in a name?

Post by Marian on 30.08.11 22:19

I thought the real Tony Bennett was the one who was absent-minded enough to leave his heart in San Francisco.....



Love the Private Eye story!

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by Kololi on 30.08.11 22:31

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:I think those on PFA2 and JATYK forget that quite a few of our members/lurkers are actually them in disguise...especially muratfan and his many ID's.



Not all of us though! flower

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by Me on 30.08.11 22:37

Oh good lord, there’s another one from the idiot that appears to be missing his or her village.

Allow me to share with you all the stunning wit, spectacular repartee and razor sharp intellect we’re dealing with here.

They’ve even posted lots of pretty little pictures to cover up and pad out the illiteracy inherent in the written parts of their replies.

Indeed whilst I’d love nothing more than to have a battle of wits with him/her I usually refuse to do so with an opponent who is so clearly unarmed.

But anyway here we go:

Oh I see I have upset the little idiot at Havern's hellhole.

Well I think given the nature of our respective posts the whole world can see who the idiot is. However I have to say I don’t like calling you an idiot because to do so would be unfair to stupid people.

Good! Steam on dear.

Not steamed at all, delighted to be able to engage, discuss and embarrass you.


I actually enjoy seeing you mad like hell on Havern's Hellhole..

Not mad as hell at all. Actually enjoying pointing, staring and laughing at you.


It's a pity even your rant is boooooooooooooooooooooring. I am not going to read all your verbal claptrap.

I think given the level of literacy displayed in your posts so far you’re confusing “not” with “can’t”.

Can you do another one? A bit shorter, more to the point...??

Yes, happy to do one you can understand. Three lines maximum and words limited to one syllable then, just so you can follow? Oh and some nice pretty pictures for you as well?


I might decide to read, not sure though, I usually don't spend much time on a silly anti.

"A silly anti"?? How old are you? 12? How’s that puberty working out for you?


Oh and I am still not going to post your piece of work, no no no.

You don’t need to post it, I couldn’t give a monkey’s.

Funny, you say you don't care, yet the rant is paper size.

Yes that’s right I don’t care about you but I do enjoy making people laugh at your expense and you keep giving me so much ammunition it takes a page or two to cover all your ramblings. Stop making such a fool of yourself and then i'll be able to reduce the size of my replies.


Oh well, whatever......

Jeez how can I counter such a stunning put down!You got me good there!

Anyway i think i'm done now poking this particular gimp with a stick.

It's been emotional.

____________________
What is certain is that since the start of the investigation there were  incongruent and even contradictory situations concerning the witness statements; the telephone records of calls that were made and received on mobile phones that belonged to the couple and to the group of friends that were on holidays with them; the movements of people right after the disappearance of the little girl was noticed, concerning the state in which the bedroom from where the child disappeared from was found (closed window? open window? partially open window?) etc., and the mystery would only become even thicker due to the clues that were left by the already mentioned sniffer dogs. - The Words of a JUDGE in relation to the McCanns

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by Guest on 30.08.11 23:21

@Me wrote: It's been emotional.

Wonderful posts, Me, I was on "so the game has changed" just as Candyfloss removed it for editing during the weekend. Interesting how the attacks start just when you are getting to the core of the issue. I also noticed it on the "Theory" thread, a fantastic theory opened by Candyfloss and almost immediately a barrage of posters poised to cause a disruption to the discussion. Some great debating and some other theories did follow but to me the original topic was never discussed fully and I wonder if this was the intent of those posters.

Tony Bennett Molly

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by aiyoyo on 30.08.11 23:33

@Me wrote:


2) Here we go look, this point backs up precisely the theme of my post about the disciples and their new careers as the unofficial Carter Ruck Outreach Department. I’d like this particular barrack room lawyer to detail his or her legal qualifications and then highlight which parts of my post are libellous and defamatory and to provide reasoning to support this. I will however, even in advance of receiving his or her detailed and evidentiary based proof of libel, advise that in response I intend to reply using the precedent set in the famous libel case of Arkell v Pressdram. I am sure that as a knowledgeable legal eagle this particular poster will not need to Google that case in order to understand the precise nature of my defence.
Carter Fuck outreach dept seems to be manned by a bunch of juvenile delinquents whose manifested collective IQS appears to be worst than my hamster, and whose debate ability is reduced to furious tantrum just like their lying leaders. I wonder whether their training includes 'violence' kicking of furniture and 'chanting' of swear words when they don't like what they hear.

One could smell strong stench of fear emitting from their nerve center, and when people are frightened they either get angry or dangerously loony.

Me! Me! Me! , me too, I'm real TB. And, just to help out those empty headed on the other side, will those who are not TB raise their hands!

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@ Me

Post by Lise on 31.08.11 9:01

Funny, you say you don't care, yet the rant is paper size.


"Yes that’s right I don’t care about you but I do enjoy making people laugh at your expense and you keep giving me so much ammunition it takes a page or two to cover all your ramblings. Stop making such a fool of yourself and then i'll be able to reduce the size of my replies."





Thanks for a great laugh!

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Professional agitators and trolls

Post by Marian on 31.08.11 9:12

In reply to Molly's comment about the Theory topic, this was taken over immediately by Garth and his alter-ego RBxHN and later by Ringo, all infamous McCann supporters. I feel that if you deal with people politely most of them will respond the same way but Garth was the exception; it transpired that his only aim was to disrupt the site. Ringo did seem to be a more reasonable contributor until more recently in another topic when he showed his true colours and was banned from the site.

As has been said elsewhere, it reflects on the McCanns that they do nothing to distance themselves from the element amongst their supporters which behaves so badly.



P.S. I have amended the last sentence as I agree with Pauline's comment that not all McCann supporters deserve to be called the dregs of society.

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by pauline on 31.08.11 9:32

@Marian wrote:


As has been said elsewhere, it reflects very badly on the McCanns that they do nothing to distance themselves from the dregs of society who support them.

Marian, I enjoy your posts but I think your phrase 'dregs of society' is unfortunate. I do not think we should insult McCann supporters. I know it is difficult to say the least to have any debate with them, and also that they insult those of us who do not believe the Mccanns. But that does not make it right to insult them.

I know you were only referring to the McCann supporters who troll this site. I have to say there are many decent McCann supporters including one of my closest friends. She has read Kate's book and the book Vanished by Danny Collins. She believes his theory that the child wandered as the door was unlocked and was found by someone who took her for whatever reasons. My friend refuses to read the PJ files or visit websites such as this. She just says I am making the facts fit my theories. So the subject has to be closed between us. I don't want to lose a friend.

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by Gillyspot on 31.08.11 10:35

@pauline wrote:
@Marian wrote:


As has been said elsewhere, it reflects very badly on the McCanns that they do nothing to distance themselves from the dregs of society who support them.

Marian, I enjoy your posts but I think your phrase 'dregs of society' is unfortunate. I do not think we should insult McCann supporters. I know it is difficult to say the least to have any debate with them, and also that they insult those of us who do not believe the Mccanns. But that does not make it right to insult them.

I know you were only referring to the McCann supporters who troll this site. I have to say there are many decent McCann supporters including one of my closest friends. She has read Kate's book and the book Vanished by Danny Collins. She believes his theory that the child wandered as the door was unlocked and was found by someone who took her for whatever reasons. My friend refuses to read the PJ files or visit websites such as this. She just says I am making the facts fit my theories. So the subject has to be closed between us. I don't want to lose a friend.



I am very sure that Marian wasn't referring to all who beleive the McCanns' stories just those that abuse and insult us on here and elsewhere. I actually don't know anyone that believes the McCanns but if I did I wouldn't hold that against them.

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by Guest on 31.08.11 11:27

Loving your posts Me do keep 'em coming...

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by Me on 31.08.11 11:36

A new lemming enters the fray:

I'm not going to even look at hater central.
It's the same blah blah blah for the last 4 years.
The McCanns were cleared 3 years ago of any involvement with their daughter's disappearance.
Of course the haters will try to argue that this isn't true but to anyone who hasn't invested all their time into being a full time arsehole it's clear that they were cleared.



I have highlighted the important area of propaganda in bold. How is it “clear” and who has “cleared” them?

In fact when you look at the evidence (something many Pro’s don’t like doing) the conclusion is that they haven’t been cleared at all.

So where to start in looking for this fabled exoneration? Well, let’s look at the solitary document the Team have relied on for suing Amaral in the past, and the same one they’ll no doubt use in their upcoming libel claim.

That is the fabled prosecutor’s final archiving report into the case produced by the woeful Jose de Magalhaes e Menezes

Let’s look at the relevant parts of that report in combination with the Judge’s conclusions in Amaral’s victorious libel case which actually quotes specifically from the prosecutor’s report – I have numbered the passages below to be able to provide easy digestible explanations for each one.

Before we start it’s important to note that this is, after all, the only time that the leaders of the Team have ever entered a courtroom in relation to this case:



1)
Concerning that matter, it is written in the final dispatch that "(...) despite the fact that the national authorities took all measures to render their travelling to Portugal possible, due to motives that are unknown, after the many doubts that they raised concerning the need and the opportunity of their travelling were clarified several times, they chose not to show up, which rendered the diligence impossible to perform.

We believe that the main damaged party were the McCann arguidos, who missed the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were made arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also hindered, because said facts remain unclear (...)".

Further in the report the judge’s state:

2)
The subsequent collection and production of evidence, namely the forensics evidence that was collected and treated in laboratory, weakened that conviction and thus the couple stopped being arguidos. What is certain is that since the start of the investigation there were incongruent and even contradictory situations concerning the witness statements; the telephone records of calls that were made and received on mobile phones that belonged to the couple and to the group of friends that were on holidays with them; the movements of people right after the disappearance of the little girl was noticed, concerning the state in which the bedroom from where the child disappeared from was found (closed window? open window? partially open window?) etc., and the mystery would only become even thicker due to the clues that were left by the already mentioned sniffer dogs.



Further on we have the Judges commenting on Amaral’s thesis:



3)
"Where Amaral differs from the Prosecutors who wrote the dispatch, is in the logical, police-work-related and investigative interpretation that he [Amaral] makes of those facts."



Followed by:

4)
Finally, concerning the damage to the right to usufruct from the penal process' guarantees, namely the right to a fair investigation and the right to freedom and safety, we still cannot understand how it is possible for said rights to be offended by the contents of a book that describes facts from the investigation, although it parts from the interpretation that the Public Ministry's Magistrates made of those facts, yet offering based, solidly built and logical interpretations.

We thus reach a point where it seems to be important to stress the following: the indicative facts that led to the applicants' constitution as arguidos within the inquiry were later on not valued by the Public Ministry's Magistrates in order to lead to a criminal accusation, but those very same facts, seen through another prism and with another base, may lead to a different conclusion from that which was attained by those same Magistrates - those are indications that were deemed to be insufficient in terms of evidence in a criminal investigation, but they can be appreciated in a different way, in an interpretation that is legitimate to be published as a literary work, as long as said interpretation does not offend any fundamental rights of anyone involved - and we have written above already why we understand that said interpretation does not offend the applicants' rights.


So how can anyone claim the Team have been cleared? The answer, for the reasonable amongst us, given these conclusions, is that it’s impossible to legitimately claim that the Team have been “cleared” at all.

Point 1

Despite the shambolic nature of the prosecutor’s final report (the sole basis for the exoneration claim used by the Team) it states unequivocally that “We believe that the main damaged party were the McCann Arguidos, who missed the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were made arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event”

So, the question is then, how can they claim to be cleared when the same prosecutor’s report they use as justification of clearance states that the Team refused to take part in a reconstruction and in doing so missed the possibility to prove their innocence? If they haven’t proven their innocence (by not cooperating) then by definition they haven’t been cleared, have they?

Point 2

This is a summary by the judges themselves where they state WITH CERTAINTY the “incongruent and contradictory” accounts given by the witnesses, in their movements and their telephone records. Once again how can they be cleared when Judges in a Portuguese court are certain that the Team (the key witnesses and first people to arrive at the crime scene) lied in the accounts and the movements that they gave to the investigation. That is not exactly a ringing exoneration of them is it? A court is stating that there accounts were not reliable!!

Point 3

Here the Judges’ fully validate Amaral’s so called lies as a valid police-work related and investigative interpretation of the facts in the files. And by using the term police work related I infer they are stating it is perhaps a more reliable intereperation than the one given in the archiving report.

So actually when any pro even attempts to smear Amaral or the Truth Of The Lie please feel free to quote the Judges words above. Once again the Judges are not clearing the Team but equally importantly, nor are they debunking Amaral’s thesis based on the facts of in the files. They are stating for the record that his book and his thesis is indeed a valid interpretation of the facts.

Point 4

This passage relates once again to the Judges actively validating Amaral’s interpretation of the facts in his book in comparison to the final archiving report. Essentially the judges conclude that it comes down to interpretation of the facts (which links in with the Judges point about Amaral’s “police work related and investigative interpretation”) in comparison to the final archiving report, and that Amaral’s theories are just as valid as the Prosecutor’s (if not more so).

So once again we see further evidence from a court that the thesis that the Team were involved in some way in the disappearance of their child was a valid one.

Yet again there’s no clearance to be had there for the team is there?



Let’s also not forget the Assistant Chief Constable Of Leicestershire Police and the written quote he made in submission to a UK Court in 2008 regarding the McCann’s when they were seeking access to the UK held Police files relating to the case :


“While one or both of them may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance.”

Once again this time we have clear evidence of non-exoneration from a party not, described by the Team as “corrupt”, “lazy” or indeed “sardine munchers” but in fact by those boys in blue from Leicestershire plod, who patrol the Team’s home patch!

What we have, and the Pro quoted above hasn’t got the brainpower to understand this, is a situation where the McCann’s have no legal basis whatsoever to claim exoneration because at no point has that exoneration been tendered. Moreover the Team have in fact been implicitly refused clearance by the PJ investigation and Prosecutor’s report, a Portuguese Court of Law and indeed Leicestershire Police.

What the McCann’s can claim (and the Prosecutor’s report confirms this) is that there was, simply a lack of evidence to build a legally tight case against the McCann’s that was strong enough to take to trial, at the point of the investigation being shelved.

Anyone who cannot see the difference between that fact and the Team’s false claim of exoneration is in all honesty, a "full time arsehole" to quote the delightful new combatant above.

Then we must address, again, the issues regarding their exoneration. In perfect tandem, Amaral’s book, the Prosecutor’s report and the Portuguese Judge’s summation all clearly state that the McCann’s refusal to cooperate in the investigation, and more precisely to assist in a reconstruction, prevents them from being cleared.


So we’re left to ponder once more why the Team would actively refuse to participate in the one event both prosecutor and Judge say they need to take part in which would grant them the exoneration they so desperately desire.

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by Me on 31.08.11 19:06

I know I shouldn’t, but like a guilty pleasure I keep taking a peek over there at their rather peculiar forum. Things seem to be going from the surreal to the ridiculous.

They appear to be giving each other proverbial high fives, exchanging pictures and engaging in wide scale group hugs in some misguided belief that they have given me what for!

The main protagonist over there, who appears to have taken rather a shine to me, has, in all seriousness, posted this latest gem of buffoonery:

Members of PFA2 will be happy to debate or answer any question from any anti whatsoever, provided that anti's refrain from calling names those with whom they want to conduct debate.

Er come again?

They claim they’re happy to debate yet they haven’t produced any post of note – or otherwise- to counter or rebut my original post relating to the strategy employed by the Team at the moment.

Nor have they posted a damn thing to rebut my claim that they have no idea what is or isn’t libellous, they haven’t proven that I am Tony Bennett, nor have they disproven my last post where I rebutted the claim that the Team had been “cleared”.

Rather amusingly the resident brain surgeon over there called my last post, a topic. This from someone who claims to know about libel and defamation yet appears not to know the difference between a post and a topic!

I note this particular wordsmith states he is located in Amsterdam. That could explain a lot. My advice? Leave the Ganja alone.

In fairness if this poster uses English as his second language then I applaud his attempts to get involved in discussions in a language which isn’t his native tongue. That being said it’s always wise to know your limitations and to not overreach in circumstances such as these. I’m not sure if the old expression of “when in a hole” translates easily into Dutch.

The claim of
“refrain[ing] from calling names those with whom they want to conduct debate”
is equally astounding. This poster in this one thread alone uses the following to describe me and this forum:


another nick (sock) (nope I’ve no idea either)

hissy fit exited little man (again convinced this is prison slang)
Hellhole board consists of non-existing members
little man
Oh I see I have upset the little idiot
I am not going to read all your verbal claptrap
Ah there is that little weirdo again
Beautiful words strung together but still rubbish and as rude as possible
What an idiot


Nope, I don’t see much refraining of name calling either, do you?

And as for this latest statement:

I feel far above the level of someone using lowlevel statements.
By doing that you not only show a lack of intellect, worse: You have already lost the debate.
You'll have your own shit withdraw, apologize and promise to continue to discuss based on mutual respect.

Having read and re-read that passage the only conclusion I can draw is that this is a random selection of words thrown into a hat and posted in the same order in which they were pulled out. Because on every level, as a piece of written English, it makes absolutely no sense.

The mind truly boggles. Is it me or are they simply all as thick as a whale omelette over there?

Addendum
We now appear to have someone displaying intelligence above the amoeba level we’ve previously seen. This new poster has written a post regarding the Team’s innocence.

Good, proper debate.

In relation to the points he raises he is of course correct, but only partly so and not correct in relation to the points I was making. The point he is correct on is actually something we all know, and I for one have never had a problem in stomaching, to use his euphemism.

That is to state that in the eyes of the law the McCann’s are innocent because insufficient evidence has been brought before a court which would prove them guilty of any offence. Until such time as that happens then they are innocent. No problem at all in stating that because that is a fact.
However their current state of innocence is clearly not the same as being fully cleared, which is what the poster claimed (in fact it was his exact word, he didn’t say “innocent”, he said cleared.)

Both the same prosecutor’s report he quotes and the Judges summing up I quoted clearly states that – and here’s the important bit for those sat at the back – at the stage at which the investigation was shelved (remember it wasn’t a completed investigation), the McCann’s had questions to answers that they simply refused to answer. This refusal in the eyes of both prosecutor and Appeal Court Judge, explicitly prevents them from achieving exoneration.

Let’s be clear on this. Both a Prosecutor and a Judge are of the opinion that the McCann’s aren’t cleared and, on balance, I think I’ll rely on their verdicts as to why someone who has no evidence against them (i.e. currently innocent in the eyes of the law) can still not be exonerated, over and above the judgement of a forum barrack room lawyer who has never been, as far as I’m aware, either a judge or prosecutor in Portugal.

More damning than that, a Court of Appeal Judge – yes a Judge’s verdict does actually supersede a prosecutor’s opinion - explicitly states that the McCann’s lied about their accounts and that Amaral’s thesis is as valid as the prosecutor’s interpretation that this poster has quoted from.

Let’s also be clear as to the nature of the quotation posted. That was a prosecutor’s opinion and interpretation of the facts of the case. A Judge passing verdict in a libel action linked to the case, actually judged that looking at the facts held in the file, Amaral’s interpretation of the McCann’s guilt was every bit as valid, in the eyes of the law, as the Prosecutor’s interpretation.

So to state that the posted quote “supersedes anyone’s opinions” is blatantly incorrect given that the quote itself is simply the opinion of a prosecutor, and according to a Judge ruling on the report that line is quoted from – once again I’ll go with his advice on this – Amaral’s opinion has equal (if not more) merit.

It would have made for an interesting court case if the prosecutor had taken the court to case, given the appeal court judge’s verdict, but that’s another story.

These are the nuances that the pro’s simply don’t want to – or can’t- appreciate and understand.

More than that they fail to grasp the fact that the investigation has not been completed nor can they stomach the fact that in both the Prosecutor’s opinion and the Judges verdict the reason the investigation had to be shelved was as a direct result of the McCann’s refusal to assist the investigation by agreeing to participate in a reconstruction which would allow the enquiry to move forward.

So we have both Prosecutor & Judge stating unequivocally that the investigation had to be shelved because of the McCann’s refusal to co-operate.

That means then that whilst the McCann’s are innocent at this shelved stage of the investigation the Team have (for unknown reasons) been unwilling to assist in the re-opening and progressing of it.

So we have to ask the question, what motives do the McCann’s have for not assisting the PJ and allowing this case to continue down the required path of a reconstruction, as laid out by the PJ, the Prosecutor & the Judge - as a starting point with which to resume the investigation?

Clearly there were only two possible outcomes for the McCann’s to consider if they had agreed to cooperate. Had they done so then the reconstruction and investigative developments subsequent to that could only result in the generation of evidence either proving that the McCann’s are guilty, or that they are fully and finally exonerated.

Given those are the only two possible outcomes of agreeing to assist and given the McCann’s desperation for a full exoneration, what inference can we draw from their refusal to co-operate?

They claim to be innocent and they seek exoneration. That is one outcome of agreeing to be involved in a reconstruction. So why won’t they do it?

What’s stopping them? Well there’s only one other option isn’t there? And what does the tell you?

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 31.08.11 19:51

Very well written piece, outlining unequivocally the situation. If anyone reading that cannot grasp the differences between cleared and investigation shelved due to non-cooperation then they clearly don't know the difference between their @rse and a whole in the ground.



I suspect whale omelet to be on the menu for quite a while

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by Gillyspot on 31.08.11 23:33

Me - another excellent post (not topic) big grin

I see your pursuer is none other than Chicane (@chicane68 on twitter). I get no more sense from that "person" either on there.

Have you seen their latest offering on their own "hellhole"?

"And I haven't even post all the factual and circumstantial evidence of the abduction of Madeleine McCann.

Sooooooooooooon to come...."


I am waiting with baited breath.

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by Me on 01.09.11 0:13

Maybe I should put this in big letters:

PUBLIC PROSECUTOR’S (I.E. GOVERNMENT LAWYER’S) OPINION

The archiving of the Process concerning Arguidos Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Marie Healy, because there are no indications of the practise of any crime under the dispositions of article 277 number 1 of the Penal Process Code.

APPEAL COURT JUDGES VERDICT

"Where Amaral differs from the Prosecutors who wrote the dispatch, is in the logical, police-work-related and investigative interpretation that he [Amaral] makes of those facts."

Finally, concerning the damage to the right to usufruct from the penal process' guarantees, namely the right to a fair investigation and the right to freedom and safety, we still cannot understand how it is possible for said rights to be offended by the contents of a book that describes facts from the investigation, although it parts from the interpretation that the Public Ministry's Magistrates made of those facts, yet offering based, solidly built and logical interpretations.

We thus reach a point where it seems to be important to stress the following: the indicative facts that led to the applicants' constitution as arguidos within the inquiry were later on not valued by the Public Ministry's Magistrates in order to lead to a criminal accusation, but those very same facts, seen through another prism and with another base, may lead to a different conclusion from that which was attained by those same Magistrates - those are indications that were deemed to be insufficient in terms of evidence in a criminal investigation, but they can be appreciated in a different way, in an interpretation that is legitimate to be published as a literary work, as long as said interpretation does not offend any fundamental rights of anyone involved - and we have written above already why we understand that said interpretation does not offend the applicants' rights.

Can those bright enough understand the difference?

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by Me on 01.09.11 0:17

Shoot, looking at their forum, as it happens it turns out that they're not bright enough!

In the words of Arnie, "i'll be back"

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by Me on 01.09.11 0:28

I'm going to have so much fun with the latest posts / rants tomorrow.

Watch this space!

These crazy Dutch bastards! They make me laugh "sho hard"

all i would ask of the poster known as chicane is please put the reefer down down for an hour or so, clear your head, then we'll chat!

You's are so crazy!

We''ll carry on tomorrow!

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Chicane Griffiths-Jones - and Cath/Totje

Post by Tony Bennett on 01.09.11 10:00

@Me wrote:I know I shouldn’t, but like a guilty pleasure I keep taking a peek over there at their rather peculiar forum. Things seem to be going from the surreal to the ridiculous.

They appear to be giving each other proverbial high fives, exchanging pictures and engaging in wide scale group hugs in some misguided belief that they have given me what for!

The main protagonist over there, Chicane, who appears to have taken rather a shine to me, has, in all seriousness, posted this latest gem of buffoonery:

Members of PFA2 will be happy to debate or answer any question from any anti whatsoever, provided that anti's refrain from calling names those with whom they want to conduct debate.
Er come again?

They claim they’re happy to debate yet they haven’t produced any post of note – or otherwise - to counter or rebut my original post relating to the strategy employed by the Team at the moment.

Nor have they posted a damn thing to rebut my claim that they have no idea what is or isn’t libellous, they haven’t proven that I am Tony Bennett, nor have they disproven my last post where I rebutted the claim that the Team had been “cleared”.

Rather amusingly the resident brain surgeon over there called my last post, a topic. This from someone who claims to know about libel and defamation yet appears not to know the difference between a post and a topic!

I note this particular wordsmith states he is located in Amsterdam. That could explain a lot. My advice? Leave the Ganja alone.
Yes, Chicane and wife/partner are located in Amsterdam and, as confirmed McCann-believers, have played a significant role in trying to combat McCann-sceptics over the past 4 years.

I think it is general knowledge that Chicane (not his real name, though very appropriate, I used to call him 'chicanery') is Chicane Griffiths-Jones, and is married. Yes, they live in Holland and one or both of the pair speak fairly good Dutch, though their translations from Dutch to English are not always 100%. Chicane is not his real first name, of course.

Chicane's twitter name is 'Chicane68', the same prefix as he uses on his e-mails, he and I have had a direct e-mail exchange before now. I will however observe the usual courtesies and not supply Chicane's full e-mail address here.

Chicane's other half is no less than the notorious 'Cath', a.k.a. 'Totje', who has popped up all over the place to try to denigrate McCann-sceptics.

The McCann-believers like to think they hide themselves well with all their multiple ISs and proxy ISP addresses, but they're not nearly so successful as they believe they are.

Chicane/Totje/Cath are very sensitive about being identified, here's an e-mail passed to me in which Chicane issues threats against someone [name withheld] who once postured as a genuine McCann-sceptic:



To: [name withheld],

Just to be sure you read the message as it is posted on PFA2...Think twice before you decide to fool around with people's privacy: you don't fool around with Cath nor me!

Don't even think of going there...Or you will experience what a Dutch wing really is. Zero tolerance!


A violation of Cath's privacy means...YOUR private life (and it's ugly) all over the internet. You will regret the day you were born.

Not a threat: a FACT! Don't think I am bluffing!


Someone in your private life is talking...like a sieve!

Think, [name withheld], think!

Chicane.




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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by Me on 01.09.11 12:40

Morning troops!

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more!

It seems that our new friends over there aren’t the sharpest tools in the box.

They are, it seems, able to understand a passage from the prosecutor’s final archiving report and cling to it as vindication of the Team’s innocence.
However they appear unable or unwilling to understand another part of the self-same report which states unequivocally:

“We believe that the main damaged party were the McCann Arguidos, who missed the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were made arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event”

So whilst they want to wear, as a badge of honour, the part of the report which states there’s no evidence against the McCann’s, the Pro’s appear to ignore completely the part, written by the same prosecutor in the same report, that states that the McCann’s have “missed the possibility to prove their innocence”.

Equally these people don’t appreciate or understand the difference between a prosecutor’s opinion and the verdict of a judge. These people claim, incorrectly, that the prosecutor’s OPINION is the only point that not only matters, but the only one that exists.

Well if that’s their feeble argument then even they have to accept the same prosecutor’s opinion that the Team have missed the possibility to prove their innocence.

Except they don’t because that doesn’t fit in with their agenda and bias, they only want to use the part of the report that feeds their obsession, and are quite happy to totally ignore other parts which don’t.

That is truly the dearth of intelligence in their thinking we’re dealing with here.

A judge’s VERDICT – you know something with higher merit than a government lawyer’s OPINION- is also discarded simply because it doesn’t fit in with their warped and obsessive tendencies.

Let’s not forget, had the Team simply left the case as it was, and not embarked upon their fervent pursuit of Amaral through the courts then the disciples could have rightly claimed the final word on the prosecutor’s archiving report. However because of the vindictive nature of their action against Amaral we now have a Judge’s VERDICT which not only echoes the prosecutor’s refusal to clear the McCann’s but actually places a stick of dynamite under the entire organisation by RULING that not only had the team lied but that Amaral’s interpretation of the facts had equal (if not more) merit than the Prosecutor’s!

KA-BOOM!

It’s about nuance, balance, thinking and understanding. Yet as we’ve seen the disciples display none of these qualities.

I have stated and continue to state that there is insufficient evidence to take the McCann’s to court. I have also stated that in the eyes of the law the McCann’s at this moment in time are innocent. No problem whatsoever in saying that because it’s the truth. My beliefs are clear on the Team and their involvement in the disappearance of their child yet I am happy to accept this truth even though it counters my own beliefs.

Yet the disciples refuse to accept the truth of that Judge’s verdict and the truth in the Prosecutor’s report because it doesn’t feed their views.
Do you see the difference? I’m happy to accept facts and statements which don’t support my own beliefs and weigh them up against other facts and information that I can see, and then form an opinion.

Do you see the Pro’s operating in the same way? Of course not! Any piece of information which suggests the Team are involved is either smeared or simply ignored. They refuse to accept or take into account, everything which would cast the leaders of their cult in anything other than a shining light.

So we see Amaral and Almeida smeared as being rogue coppers, convicted of offences in the dim and distant past which were completely unrelated to this case but in their minds automatically proving that they had some personal agenda against the McCann’s which resulted in them fabricating and massaging evidence against them.

They paint the picture of a bad Hollywood movie. Rogue coppers acting alone and secretively, desperately massaging evidence to fit up innocent doctors. This despite the fact that both Amaral & Almeida were simply co-ordinators of a huge team of investigators whose body of work led not just the PJ but also the UK police to the same conclusions.

The disciples shout that the investigation was botched and the promotion of the parental involvement theory scuppered the development of other theories. Yet they offer no suggestion as to what, precisely, the investigation should have done differently to develop the case.

Abductor you say? Ok, what have we got? Physical evidence? None. Independent sightings? None. Huge manhunt and the sealing of borders? Done. Nothing found, no leads, no trail and no evidence. What should the investigation have done? Invented something to support it and thrown resources at a theory which had and still has no basis or merit in fact?

Any investigation, noting the statistics on child disappearances and noticing the incongruity of the actions and statements of the Team, would have been criminally negligent had they NOT investigated the parents as a matter of course.

And the evidence continued to stack up. The crime scene looked staged, the accounts didn’t tally, the claims of forced entry were false, specialist dogs indicated the presence of cadaver odour and the initial forensics report looked damning.

But no, let’s forget all that and instead simply call the two co-ordinators criminals and assume that incidents in other cases automatically means their work on this case had no merit, ignoring the fact that actually both had 25 years plus experience in solving cases and were decorated and successful officers.

This paranoia even extends to doubting the veracity of the translation of the case files in Amaral’s recent court victory in what amounts to nothing more than “anything we don’t like or doesn’t fit we refuse to discuss on the grounds of translation queries”

We also see, laughably, the dismissal of my use of the comments made to a Judge by the Assistant Chief Constable of Leicestershire Police regarding the Teams involvement as being “in a time warp” because they go back to 2008. Yet in the same sentence and thread the Pro’s repeatedly quote from the archiving report.

Difference in age between the two documents? Two weeks!

So they’re saying anyone using the quote from Leicestershire Plod is stuck in a time warp yet they use as justification a document which is just two weeks younger.

And of course, let’s not forget that the two documents are not related to each other in terms of relevance. No new evidence came to light between those two weeks which would have rendered the conclusions of Plod as obsolete.

As we now know the archiving report was judged in a court of law to be simply an interpretation of the facts, but it was also judged that Amaral’s’ thesis and indeed by association, those comments made by Plod, were at the very least, an equally valid interpretation of those same facts.

That’s not my opinion, it’s not the public prosecutor’s opinion it is simply the VERDICT of a Judge in a Portuguese Court of Law.

On to the dogs then. I have often wondered about the Pro’s attitude to Eddie & Keela. We know that, true to form, the Pro’s auto smear mechanism kicks in against the dogs and their reliability. Even though those of us with a brain know full well of course that the alerts are simply a starting point and have to be verified. No right minded person should state that they are the be all and end all of proof against the Team, and the results, whilst indicative, have to be corroborated. That is common sense.

However they alerted too many times, to too many things, in areas only specific to the McCann’s to be simply dismissed as junk, or false. So we have suggestive data that shows at some point in the Team’s apartment and other locations there was the presence of a cadaver odour and or blood. We also know of no other person dying in that apartment. We also have frankly bizarre early explanations put forward by the Team and their support group in an attempt to explain away the findings.

So are we to dismiss that evidence however unsubstantiated, simply because some people claim to know in their hearts the team weren’t involved?
Forget the name of the suspects, forget the fact that this is about Madeleine McCann, just apply those same facts to another case with less evocative participants and ask yourself, honestly, if the PJ were wrong to suspect the Team based on the findings of those dogs?

This then leads me on to my question for the Pro’s regarding dogs. It’s hypothetical one, but a worthwhile exercise nonetheless.

Let’s ask then, if a paedophile living in Portugal was found and who was then suspected of involvement in this case, which resulted in these same dogs being sent in and they alerted in exactly the same manner would the Pro’s then apply the same amount of smear and disdain against the reliability of the dogs in a such a scenario given that it would then, conveniently, fit their theory?

I think we all know the answer to that question.

So what we have with the dogs, and with other information in general, is the appraisal of evidence judged not on the merits of it in itself, but simply on the basis of whether it fits their pre conceived and dearly held opinions.

They say we are all stuck in 2007, a “time warp” refusing to move on. Well discounting the fact that a lot of work has been done in studying the files since then and the information contained within the files has developed since, the question their claim creates is this:

Why are we stuck in 2007 with only the information on the archived files to go on?

I did promise my new “best friend forever” that I’d keep things simple so that he could understand my posts. So in that spirit let’s look at why we’re reliant on information gathered in 2007.

Why are we reliant on information from 2007-2008? - Because the case was shelved.
Why was the case shelved? - There were insufficient leads and new information with which to continue the investigation.
Why was this? - Because the investigation required the participation of the Team to take part in a reconstruction to allow the case to develop.
Did the Team, desperate to find their missing daughter, agree to this to be able to assist the PJ in the hunt for their child? – Er no.
Why? – reasons unknown according to the PJ prosecutor and Judge in Amaral’s case
Why would the Team refuse to co-operate in the investigation - Good question

So for the terminally stupid over there let’s surmise. We are reliant on information going back to 2007 because the team refused to participate in events which would allow the investigation to continue and allow new material to come to light.

It’s not that we don’t want to move on. We actively do. But we can’t because the Team won’t co-operate with the Police to allow that to happen.
The only conclusion we can draw then is that it is the Team themselves who want the world to be stuck in 2007, they are the ones happy to leave the evidence the big bag of loose ends it was then.

What motivation do they have for doing that? Thoughts on a postcard please, or for my new friend, a stamp, judging by the nature of his thoughts so far seen.

Hilariously they are still utterly convinced I am Bennett even though, clearly I’m not! Given their belief in the Team’s innocence I guess that level of deductive ineptitude is hardly surprising. Still funny though.

I am also more than happy to bore them and I’ll take that as a compliment. It is a bit of an ironic accusation given the main accusers are incapable of stringing a coherent sentence together themselves.

But it seems as well as thinking they don’t do irony either.

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by lj on 01.09.11 15:09

from Tony's post:

Chicane Griffiths-Jones

So it's not so much the Dutch who are crazy, is it?

Btw if you really think it is the availability of drugs that makes people go cuckoo, what must you be thinking of Portugal?

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html




____________________
"And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment, why would that be our fault?"  Gerry

http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by Me on 01.09.11 15:32

@lj wrote:from Tony's post:

Chicane Griffiths-Jones

So it's not so much the Dutch who are crazy, is it?

Btw if you really think it is the availability of drugs that makes people go cuckoo, what must you be thinking of Portugal?

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html


No, not only the Dutch, but this character certainly appears to be crazy!

I was trying to get to the bottom of the source of his inane and incoherent ramblings. The only explanation I could come up with was his location and its well-known propensity for the old wacky baccy.

Plus it’s always nice to get a few out-dated stereotypes into posts where we can, particularly at the expense of the disciples!!

Hope no offence was taken by you, none was intended, it was meant as just a light-hearted attempt to extract the urine from this particular chap!

Your own position on the subject of weed is noted given your choice of avatar.

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by lj on 01.09.11 15:39

@Me wrote:
@lj wrote:from Tony's post:

Chicane Griffiths-Jones

So it's not so much the Dutch who are crazy, is it?

Btw if you really think it is the availability of drugs that makes people go cuckoo, what must you be thinking of Portugal?

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html


No, not only the Dutch, but this character certainly appears to be crazy!

I was trying to get to the bottom of the source of his inane and incoherent ramblings. The only explanation I could come up with was his location and its well-known propensity for the old wacky baccy.

Plus it’s always nice to get a few out-dated stereotypes into posts where we can, particularly at the expense of the disciples!!

Hope no offence was taken by you, none was intended, it was meant as just a light-hearted attempt to extract the urine from this particular chap!

Your own position on the subject of weed is noted given your choice of avatar.

To be honest I like to provoke some of these Dutch stereotypes, and tell them not to come to the Netherlands, because when you cough you be will euthanized right away!

I have an even worse avatar, but the details don't show well in the smaller version..

I got many hypocrite very mad with this one though. iconbiggrin iconbiggrin

____________________
"And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment, why would that be our fault?"  Gerry

http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by aiyoyo on 01.09.11 17:56

I wonder how that thuggish dutch is related to mccanns?
To resort to threaten people on mccanns' behalf must mean they were bonded like conjoined twins.

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Re: So the Game has Changed (Updated post now added)

Post by Me on 01.09.11 18:01

One bright spark has now taken to “hilariously” linking to a site called “let me Google that for you”.

They’re all now chuckling like giddy little schoolgirls.

I think the sheep on there will be more interested in this site:

Team Disciples - Click Here!

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