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Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by Verdi on 02.07.16 13:43

@jeanmonroe wrote:Date of Interview: 11.04.08

Interviewing Officer(s) DC 1485 MESSIAH


DC 1485 "Is there anything that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth?'' (about a 3 years old child 'disappearance')

DP reply "Err the, there ARE a few things but I don't think this is the right forum for bringing those up.'

DC 1485 "Okay......"
-------------------------------------------
Person Interviewed: David PAYNE
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters,
Date of Interview: 11.04.08

DP "............you know because again this is something that we've talked about, you know, IF she (Madeleine) WAS abducted you know, sorry...."
David Payne, close friend of the McCann family, describes Madeleine McCann..

"Mm, err Madeleine's err a very striking err beautiful child, I'd almost if I want a better phrase call her doll-like, you know she was very, you know I think, you know very unique looking child err, she'd got very pretty, you know blonde hair err in a bob, she was quite a petite err child and you know she was very bubbly, very err you know she was a very good child to, to interact with. She was very bright, you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine err ....

She was, you know, very, she is a very beautiful child and good fun.'

[five was'is and one is - I think Dr. Payne got himself in a bit of a waz-t'iz]

Jon Corner, close friend of the McCann family, describes Madeleine McCann..

"So beautiful, astonishingly bright, and I’d have to say very charismatic. She would shine out of a crowd. So, God forgive me, maybe that’s part of the problem. That special quality. Some ******* picked up on that."

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by jeanmonroe on 02.07.16 14:07

10 'you know's' in two small 'statements'......'you know'!

'She was, you know, very, she is...?????????

'was'?

'Lots' of 'she WAS's'!

Hobs?

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by Verdi on 02.07.16 16:42

So Kate and Gerry - tell us about Madeleine

Gerry McCann: 

“I was the last to see her. I saw her and thought how beautiful she was and thought how lucky I was to be a father of three children,”

"She came out screaming, she was a McCann there's no doubt about that.."

"She came out almost perfectly formed.... she was instantly beautiful...."

Kate McCann:

"She's lovely"


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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 02.07.16 18:48

@jeanmonroe wrote:10 'you know's' in two small 'statements'......'you know'!

'She was, you know, very, she is...?????????

'was'?

'Lots' of 'she WAS's'!

Hobs?
My beloved cat went missing nearly two weeks ago and already I catch myself saying "was" when talking about him. Sad

And I know know I haven't concealed his body or faked his abduction and that there really is a chance he could still be alive somewhere.

Hobs?

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by aquila on 02.07.16 19:09

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:
@jeanmonroe wrote:10 'you know's' in two small 'statements'......'you know'!

'She was, you know, very, she is...?????????

'was'?

'Lots' of 'she WAS's'!

Hobs?
My beloved cat went missing nearly two weeks ago and already I catch myself saying "was" when talking about him. Sad

And I know know I haven't concealed his body or faked his abduction and that there really is a chance he could still be alive somewhere.

Hobs?
I believe that when you use the word 'was' doesn't always imply guilt.

'Was' means the last time you saw or encountered that person/animal.

Forensic linguistics is not a science and proves nothing other than mostly retrospective heralding.

I've seen every single word the McCanns have uttered through their website and their various spokesfolk being shredded in isolation. This has gone from vernacular meaning such as 'come through' which has been done to death and is really only a regional phrase and has absolutely nothing to do with being a doctor speaking of a patient who is dying to 'when I found her missing'. It grates on my nerves when this detail is taken out of context to prove nothing. A horoscope has about as much reliability.

I guess you can call me choleric.

I'm only interested in what happened to this little girl who went missing and there are a lot of lies being told by people surrounding Madeleine. Carving up sentences from the statements of the Tapas 9 to prove something (mostly nothing) will not find justice for her imo.

The authorities charged with finding justice for Madeleine have succeeded in zilch. These are the people to name and shame and that's what Tony Bennett and the people on this forum challenge.

As for forensic linguistics, it's a distraction.

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by Hobs on 03.07.16 0:36

@aquila wrote:
@Get'emGonçalo wrote:
@jeanmonroe wrote:10 'you know's' in two small 'statements'......'you know'!

'She was, you know, very, she is...?????????

'was'?

'Lots' of 'she WAS's'!

Hobs?
My beloved cat went missing nearly two weeks ago and already I catch myself saying "was" when talking about him. Sad

And I know know I haven't concealed his body or faked his abduction and that there really is a chance he could still be alive somewhere.

Hobs?
I believe that when you use the word 'was' doesn't always imply guilt.

'Was' means the last time you saw or encountered that person/animal.

Forensic linguistics is not a science and proves nothing other than mostly retrospective heralding.

I've seen every single word the McCanns have uttered through their website and their various spokesfolk being shredded in isolation. This has gone from vernacular meaning such as 'come through' which has been done to death and is really only a regional phrase and has absolutely nothing to do with being a doctor speaking of a patient who is dying to 'when I found her missing'. It grates on my nerves when this detail is taken out of context to prove nothing. A horoscope has about as much reliability.

I guess you can call me choleric.

I'm only interested in what happened to this little girl who went missing and there are a lot of lies being told by people surrounding Madeleine. Carving up sentences from the statements of the Tapas 9 to prove something (mostly nothing) will not find justice for her imo.

The authorities charged with finding justice for Madeleine have succeeded in zilch. These are the people to name and shame and that's what Tony Bennett and the people on this forum challenge.

As for forensic linguistics, it's a distraction.
Hi Aquila.

Forensic linguistics/ statement analysis is a science.

When applied correctly it is 100% reliable.

It uses the words only spoken by the subject to learn the truth or the lie.

It is used around the world in law enforcement, businesses, the military, any where where someone needs to know if who they are talking to or listening to is telling the truth, whether they are trusted, whether they will be good for the company.

Another bonus is that unlike polygraphs which can be passed by the guilty and failed by the truthful if the questions are not phrased correctly, the statement and the analysis is allowed  as testimony in court and the analyst who is recognized as an expert witness can be cross examined as to their conclusions.

The simple word WAS does not, as you say, imply guilt or innocence.

When it appears as a tense, we note whether its usage is appropriate, whether its use is expected due to passage of time, the question asked, or if it is unexpected, for example when a mother refers to her missing child.

Maternal instinct will cause a mother to pretty much be the last person to accept their child is dead even weeks, months or years later. They will often refer to their child in the present tense.

If a parents refers to their missing child using the past tense WAS and the child has been missing for a few hours or a few days and has not been found, the expected would be the use of the present tense IS, unless they have been given to believe the child may be dead whether it be due to  information from law enforcement, length of time, physical evidence, or incriminating statements by those involved, in which case the tense WAS would be appropriate, although , it is usually the mom, they will still use the present tense.

When parents or suspects use the past tense and it has only been a very short period of time, it is asked why they are referring to them in such a tense?

Is it guilt?

Is it guilty knowledge. or is it from what they have been told?

It is unexpected and must be noted and then further questions asked as to why they are using it.

The mccanns have been a fount of information with all their statements, along with the interviews, gerry's blog, kate's book.

They have told the world what has happened.

An analyst will always believe what the subject is telling them, it is presumed the subject is being truthful and thus with that in mind, anything unexpected will stand out.

Deception is stressful for the subject and the brain hates stress.

To relive the stress, the brain will seek to tell the truth.

When we listen, we hear the truth from the subject's own mouth.

Deception can be by minimization, omission and, in a small number of cases, creating a whole new reality.

We look for when minimization is used, such as "I would never hurt XYZ, when XYZ was in fact murdered.

Omission, when time is skipped (temporal lacuna) or failing to say what else they were doing at the relevant time.

Creating a whole new reality to conceal what they were really doing, eg  an abduction when the victim was murdered (casey anthony is a good example)

It is also important to note what they don't say as they self edit to prevent themselves from leaking the truth.

As words are thought a microsecond before they are spoken (written) we can see what is at the forefront of their minds, what they are thinking.

Often there will be a truth shaped hole as they try to avoid sensitive(to them) words.

EG.

Reply "There was nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in or anything like that, it would have been just purely, if they had anything''


Oops, why did he use the word hide?
It was at the forefront of his mind in relation to hiding a small body, hence the self editing after the word hide as he realised what he was going to say.

Body/corpse was the sensitive word thus he avoided saying it and causing analysts to make note and if it were us  we would spend some time probing the bag with him.

11 April 2008

In Payne's case, in his rog dated  he said this in relation to Maddie

Reply "Mm, err Madeleine's err a very striking err beautiful child, I'd almost if I want a better phrase call her doll-like, you know she was very, you know I think,you know very unique looking child err, she'd got very pretty, you know blonde hair err in a bob, she was quite a petite err child and you know she was very bubbly, very err you know she was a very good child to, to interact with. she was very bright, you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine err and you know she, she was, you know Kate and Gerry's, you know pride and joy. They'd had a lot of trouble conceiving, you know with IVF and everything and you know Madeleine was their miracle. she was obviously very unique with the fact that she'd got the, you know the iris defect err but you know she was certainly a happy go lucky child you know she was, she would interact with the other children very well, as I said on the other, earlier recording, you know she played very happily with Lily and you know indeed the other children. she was, you know, very, she is a very beautiful child and good fun.'

There is so much sensitivity here it is almost off the scale.

Given the fact it is a year after Maddie's alleged abduction it could be said that his use of the past tense is appropriate, especially since he is not a family member.
However, given that the mccanns and chums all claim abduction and the mccann's claim Maddie is still alive and not seriously harmed, the past tense could be deemed unexpected, unless he has reason to believe she is no longer alive.
In which case i would be asking why he used such a tense.
It is worth noting, he refers to her in the past tense all the way through until the very end, where he refers once to her beauty in the present tense!.

What does stand out is all the
you knows
You know
indicates awareness of the interviewer and also a need to convince and convey, to have what he says taken for granted and not to be questioned.
He uses this particular phrase 17 times in his statement here.
He uses the past tense phrase she was 10 times.
Is she no longer any of those?
He also refers to things about Maddie in relation to eye defect, fun etc in the past tense 4 times.
He also self refers himself once.

What is also concerning is his inappropriate description of Maddie, how he relates to her appearance.
Also it is concerning how he speaks about her in relation to being in her company.
In particular


she was a very good child to, to interact with


you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine

Why does he use the unexpected word interact in relation to Maddie?
To act one upon another.
Why not talk?
Is she perhaps unwilling?
Was the interaction only one way?

The second phrase deeply concerns me.
He does not say that Maddie was fun to be with or be around.
He doesn't say that Maddie is the one having the fun.
he doesn't even say that WE had fun which would indicate unity or shared cooperation.
The person with Maddie is the one having fun,  not Maddie was the one having fun.
I would be asking questions in relation to his contact with Maddie (and the other children)
I would seek to learn what his definition of
interact is.
I would seek to learn what his definition of fun is.
I would then seek to learn what his definition of fun with Maddie is
.

I also have concerns about this phrase

she was a very good child to, to interact with

I would seek to learn if there have been children that weren't very good to interact with.


As an aside, i have had the unfortunate privilege of meeting payne, he is far more fluent and coherent than in this statement.
We don't like each other.  winkwink


Also we have gerry's foot in mouth statement:


Gerry McCann: 
“I was the last to see her.

Therein lies the problem and the admission/confession.
The last person to see her was the one who allegedly 'abducted' (read killed) her.
It was these exact words that did for ian huntley
It was also what  revealed a father as a killer at his daughter's sleepover.
If gerry was the last to see her, then he is the one who saw her dead and/or disposed of her.
There was no one after him that saw Maddie.

The more they speak the more they reveal the truth of what they did to Maddie

It is their owns words that condemn them.
It is their owns words that will get us justice for Maddie.



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The little unremembered acts of kindness and love are the best parts of a person's life.

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by Roxyroo on 03.07.16 2:05

@Hobs wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@Get'emGonçalo wrote:
@jeanmonroe wrote:10 'you know's' in two small 'statements'......'you know'!

'She was, you know, very, she is...?????????

'was'?

'Lots' of 'she WAS's'!

Hobs?
My beloved cat went missing nearly two weeks ago and already I catch myself saying "was" when talking about him. Sad

And I know know I haven't concealed his body or faked his abduction and that there really is a chance he could still be alive somewhere.

Hobs?
I believe that when you use the word 'was' doesn't always imply guilt.

'Was' means the last time you saw or encountered that person/animal.

Forensic linguistics is not a science and proves nothing other than mostly retrospective heralding.

I've seen every single word the McCanns have uttered through their website and their various spokesfolk being shredded in isolation. This has gone from vernacular meaning such as 'come through' which has been done to death and is really only a regional phrase and has absolutely nothing to do with being a doctor speaking of a patient who is dying to 'when I found her missing'. It grates on my nerves when this detail is taken out of context to prove nothing. A horoscope has about as much reliability.

I guess you can call me choleric.

I'm only interested in what happened to this little girl who went missing and there are a lot of lies being told by people surrounding Madeleine. Carving up sentences from the statements of the Tapas 9 to prove something (mostly nothing) will not find justice for her imo.

The authorities charged with finding justice for Madeleine have succeeded in zilch. These are the people to name and shame and that's what Tony Bennett and the people on this forum challenge.

As for forensic linguistics, it's a distraction.
Hi Aquila.

Forensic linguistics/ statement analysis is a science.

When applied correctly it is 100% reliable.

It uses the words only spoken by the subject to learn the truth or the lie.

It is used around the world in law enforcement, businesses, the military, any where where someone needs to know if who they are talking to or listening to is telling the truth, whether they are trusted, whether they will be good for the company.

Another bonus is that unlike polygraphs which can be passed by the guilty and failed by the truthful if the questions are not phrased correctly, the statement and the analysis is allowed  as testimony in court and the analyst who is recognized as an expert witness can be cross examined as to their conclusions.

The simple word WAS does not, as you say, imply guilt or innocence.

When it appears as a tense, we note whether its usage is appropriate, whether its use is expected due to passage of time, the question asked, or if it is unexpected, for example when a mother refers to her missing child.

Maternal instinct will cause a mother to pretty much be the last person to accept their child is dead even weeks, months or years later. They will often refer to their child in the present tense.

If a parents refers to their missing child using the past tense WAS and the child has been missing for a few hours or a few days and has not been found, the expected would be the use of the present tense IS, unless they have been given to believe the child may be dead whether it be due to  information from law enforcement, length of time, physical evidence, or incriminating statements by those involved, in which case the tense WAS would be appropriate, although , it is usually the mom, they will still use the present tense.

When parents or suspects use the past tense and it has only been a very short period of time, it is asked why they are referring to them in such a tense?

Is it guilt?

Is it guilty knowledge. or is it from what they have been told?

It is unexpected and must be noted and then further questions asked as to why they are using it.

The mccanns have been a fount of information with all their statements, along with the interviews, gerry's blog, kate's book.

They have told the world what has happened.

An analyst will always believe what the subject is telling them, it is presumed the subject is being truthful and thus with that in mind, anything unexpected will stand out.

Deception is stressful for the subject and the brain hates stress.

To relive the stress, the brain will seek to tell the truth.

When we listen, we hear the truth from the subject's own mouth.

Deception can be by minimization, omission and, in a small number of cases, creating a whole new reality.

We look for when minimization is used, such as "I would never hurt XYZ, when XYZ was in fact murd

Omission, when time is skipped (temporal lacuna) or failing to say what else they were doing at the relevant time.

Creating a whole new reality to conceal what they were really doing, eg  an abduction when the victim was murdered (casey anthony is a good example)

It is also important to note what they don't say as they self edit to prevent themselves from leaking the truth.

As words are thought a microsecond before they are spoken (written) we can see what is at the forefront of their minds, what they are thinking.

Often there will be a truth shaped hole as they try to avoid sensitive(to them) words.

EG.

Reply "There was nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in or anything like that, it would have been just purely, if they had anything''


Oops, why did he use the word hide?
It was at the forefront of his mind in relation to hiding a small body, hence the self editing after the word hide as he relaised what he was going to say.

Body/corpse was the sensitive word thus he avoided saying it and causing analysts to make note and if it were us  we would spend some time probing the bag with him.

11 april 2008

In Payne's case, in his rog dated  he said this in relation to Maddie

Reply "Mm, err Madeleine's err a very striking err beautiful child, I'd almost if I want a better phrase call her doll-like, you know she was very, you know I think,you know very unique looking child err, she'd got very pretty, you know blonde hair err in a bob, she was quite a petite err child and you know she was very bubbly, very err you know she was a very good child to, to interact with. she was very bright, you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine err and you know she, she was, you know Kate and Gerry's, you know pride and joy. They'd had a lot of trouble conceiving, you know with IVF and everything and you know Madeleine was their miracle. she was obviously very unique with the fact that she'd got the, you know the iris defect err but you know she was certainly a happy go lucky child you know she was, she would interact with the other children very well, as I said on the other, earlier recording, you know she played very happily with Lily and you know indeed the other children. she was, you know, very, she is a very beautiful child and good fun.'

There is so much sensitivity here it is almost off the scale.

Given the fact it is a year after Maddie's alleged abduction it could be said that his use of the past tense is appropriate, especially since he is not a family member.
However, given that the mccanns and chums all claim abduction and the mccann's claim Maddie is still alive and not seriously harmed, the past tense could be deemed unexpected, unless he has reason to believe she is no longer alive.
In which case i would be asking why he used such a tense.
It is worth noting, he refers to her in the past tense all the way through until the very end, where he refers once to her beauty in the present tense!.

What does stand out is all the
you knows
You know
indicates awareness of the interviewer and also a need to convince and convey, to have what he says taken for granted and not to be questioned.
He uses this particular phrase 17 times in his statement here.
He uses the past tense phrase she was 10 times.
Is she no longer any of those?
He also refers to things about Maddie in relation to eye defect, fun etc in the past tense 4 times.
He also self refers himself once.

What is also concerning is his inappropriate description of Maddie, how he relates to her appearance.
Also it is concerning how he speaks about her in relation to being in her company.
In particular


she was a very good child to, to interact with


you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine

Why does he use the unexpected word interact in relation to Maddie?
To act one upon another.
Why not talk?
Is she perhaps unwilling?
Was the interaction only one way?

The second phrase deeply concerns me.
He does not say that Maddie was fun to be with or be around.
He doesn't say that Maddie is the one having the fun.
he doesn't even say that WE had fun which would indicate unity or shared cooperation.
The person with Maddie is the one having fun,  not Maddie was the one having fun.
I would be asking questions in relation to his contact with Maddie (and the other children)
I would seek to learn what his definition of
interact is.
I would seek to learn what his definition of fun is.
I would then seek to learn what his definition of fun with Maddie is
.

I also have concerns about this phrase

she was a very good child to, to interact with

I would seek to learn if there have been children that weren't very good to interact with.


As an aside, i have had the unfortunate privilege of meeting payne, he is far more fluent and coherent than in this statement.
We don't like each other.  winkwink


Also we have gerry's foot in mouth statement:


Gerry McCann: 
“I was the last to see her.

Therein lies the problem and the admission/confession.
The last person to see her was the one who allegedly 'abducted' (read killed) her.
It was these exact words that did for ian huntley
It was also what  revealed a father as a killer at his daughter's sleepover.
If gerry was the last to see her, then he is the one who saw her dead and/or disposed of her.
There was no one after him that saw Maddie.

The more they speak the more they reveal the truth of what they did to Maddie

It is their owns words that condemn them.
It is their owns words that will get us justice for Maddie.





Absolutely amazing post Hobs, I totally agree, they all tie themselves up in knots every time they open their mouths!

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by plebgate on 03.07.16 8:27

Has anyone asked under FOI  (BBC) why Payne was left out of the Crimewatch progamme and why it wasn't shown in Portugal?

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If I forget to add it to a post everything is In My Opinion and I don't know anything for sure.
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Re; David Payne

Post by willowthewisp on 03.07.16 11:30

Hi Plebgate,maybe because he needs to be protected, along with the Tapas 7/9,but why?
There has been a lot of investigation into the "missing" Madeleine McCann case and Paedophlia being ruled in and out by various Organisations,CEOP(JG)Metropolitan Police reports 2008 from Interpol?
One thing to note that is persistent throughout the Statements taken and the spoken words from the TV interviews, that is a constant and it may be of no consequence,but, there is a lot of "Adults"referring to Bath Times,crying and especially where the"Gasper Statements" were suddenly withheld from the Portugal PJ,until Goncalo Amaral was suddenly removed by our Gordon?

I know references have been made by various people about Worldwide child abuse and how it has gone on for possibly decades and if it is anywhere near to being associated with the "Mark Dutroux" investigation and that Cover up they failed to keep under wraps, there is always the possibility of such groups being in existence, but not in  the UK by Elite members of our Society,We'er British for God's sake man!?

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by plebgate on 03.07.16 11:50

Well there sure is something strange WTW when something like that is not shown.   How can they expect to jog peoples' memories if the full "picture" was not show and not shown in the country where Maddie disappeared.  

How much did it cost again?  We still don't know who paid for it - do we?

Something very strange imo.

____________________
Judge Judy to shifty  witnesses   -    LOOK AT ME  -   Um is not an answer.

If I forget to add it to a post everything is In My Opinion and I don't know anything for sure.
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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by Roxyroo on 03.07.16 11:53

@willowthewisp wrote:Hi Plebgate,maybe because he needs to be protected, along with the Tapas 7/9,but why?
There has been a lot of investigation into the "missing" Madeleine McCann case and Paedophlia being ruled in and out by various Organisations,CEOP(JG)Metropolitan Police reports 2008 from Interpol?
One thing to note that is persistent throughout the Statements taken and the spoken words from the TV interviews, that is a constant and it may be of no consequence,but, there is a lot of "Adults"referring to Bath Times,crying and especially where the"Gasper Statements" were suddenly withheld from the Portugal PJ,until Goncalo Amaral was suddenly removed by our Gordon?

I know references have been made by various people about Worldwide child abuse and how it has gone on for possibly decades and if it is anywhere near to being associated with the "Mark Dutroux" investigation and that Cover up they failed to keep under wraps, there is always the possibility of such groups being in existence, but not in  the UK by Elite members of our Society,We'er British for God's sake man!?
Also the Hautte de le Garrenne case, despicable what happened there, and the cover up

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by jeanmonroe on 03.07.16 12:20

Thx to Hobs for explanation regarding DP language used in his 'statements'.

Does anyone 'know', or been able to find out ,WHAT 'the 'few things' were that DP 'considered' pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth?'' (about a 3 years old child 'disappearance')

The 'few things' he would NOT tell DC 1485 Messiah (Leicestershire Police, interviewing officer) ABOUT?

'A three years old child has 'disappeared', i know a 'few things', that i consider pertinent and relevant to establish the material truth about 'that', BUT i'm not going to discuss 'them' with you'!

Surely, SURELY, 'that' IS 'perverting the course or justice' isn't it?

jeanmonroe

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by sandancer on 03.07.16 12:49

Many thanks Hobs for your interesting and informative post .I always learn so much from them .
You mention you met Payne , is it possible to give us more about that meeting ?
Like others I find it strange he was omitted from Crime watch ( along with the dogs ) . The Gaspar statements and Yvonne Martin have also been brushed under the carpet ! Why ?
What were the "few things " he would not discuss to establish the truth , something that would incriminate him or someone else in the group? Why was he allowed to get away with it ?
As JeanMunroes says " Surely , SURELY , that is perverting the course of justice "

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Re;David Payne

Post by willowthewisp on 03.07.16 15:32

Hi Sandancer,it is only "Perverting the Court of Justice" if it can be provern that is what you may have done to cover up a Crime,until then he is innocent of any criminal Offences in relation to the missing Madeleine McCann case?
One thing every person in the UK should note,is that until the Portugal PJ released the case files to the UK to peruse,the UK people would have been non the wiser to DC 1485 Messiah and Dr Paynes statement in 2008?

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by Hobs on 03.07.16 17:14

@sandancer wrote:Many thanks Hobs for your interesting and informative post .I always learn so much from them .
You mention you met Payne , is it possible to give us more about that meeting ?
Like others I find it strange he was omitted from Crime watch ( along with the dogs ) . The Gaspar statements and Yvonne Martin have also been brushed under the carpet ! Why ?
What were the "few things " he would not discuss to establish the truth , something that would incriminate him or someone else in the group? Why was he allowed to get away with it ?
As JeanMunroes says " Surely , SURELY , that is perverting the course of justice "

Hi Sandancer.
For my sins, payne is one of the two urologists dealing with my uncle's stage 4 renal failure.
The man is a complete twonk, putting it politely.

My uncle had spoken about a dr.payne, i didn't know it was him until we met.
When he showed up at the ward door i thought he looked vaguely familiar but i didn't know why until my uncle told me who it was, then it clicked.

My Uncle has a stricture between his right kidney and his bladder which currently means he has a nephrostomy in his right side to drain the urine out. He will at some point need his right kidney removing which will mean dialysis.

Payne  had previously given my uncle a stent (a tube which widen and maintains the  ureter in this case, open to allow free flowing of urine from his kidney) Which caused multiple and severe UTI's which if my uncle had not been in my care, would have killed him.

He insisted that he was going to try and reinsert a new stent  in order to be able to remove the nephrostomy tube.
I refused point blank explaining why my uncle was not a suitable candidate for said procedure.
He explained it would be permanent whereas the other was temporary.
I again refused explaining in small words why it was not going to happen, my uncle meanwhile saying he was fine and that a stent was best etc whilst hiding under the covers.

Payne then said he would take another look at my uncle's kidneys using a telescope.

I was dumbstruck.
I turned into Father Crilly explaining near and far to Father Dougal.

I explained a telescope was used to see things far away, things like planets, stars and galaxies, not a kidney.
I told him the correct term was either endoscope or laproscope

He replied it was a very small telescope!


I then reiterated in plain English and again using small words ( i was suffering from a severe case of sarcasmitis by this time) that he would do no such thing given uncle's previews history of UTI's due to a stent.

His response was staggering in its stupidity.

He said "We cannot take into account a patient's past history when  looking at future treatment"
My uncle took one look at me and tried to dig his way through the mattress.

Seriously?

I was about to let rip when he turned around and made a fast walk for the door.
I was raging.
I made it clear that before any procedure was to be done on my uncle, even a simple  examination i was to be consulted or i would be having words.

Apparently what i said did the trick, they did an examination and tried to use a wire to get through the stricture since they couldn't get a camera though there so no stent.
Payne then said he could remove the stricture, i said no since uncle was diabetic among other things and he would heal slowly, the length of the stricture meant there would not be enough ureter to connect kidney to bladder.
The right kidney was so grossly abnormal it really should be removed soonest as it was causing so many issues, however, since they are pissing about regarding dialysis, they cannot do it really until they have created a fistula in his arm.
I pointed out then that since they were pissing about and with his other issues it will take months for the fistula to bed in.
They currently can no longer get blood from his arms due to all the scarring from cannulas, injections, blood samples so basically his arms are no longer an option.

He cannot have the
peritoneal dialysis option since he has the nephrostomy tube in.
This leaves either the neck or the leg.

The neck line is only in an emergency or for short term.

Uncle had a neck line when he first had kidney failure (he was working his way through the medical A-Z at the time including getting stuff i had never heard of and which was incredibly rare.)

It is not suitable for long term use unless they make it a cannula, with uncle's other health issues it wouldn't work.

The final option is a leg one, which payne  (and the other guy) hadn't heard of so i had to explain it to them!

Currently i am st6icking with the nephrostomy and insisting it be changed every 3 months.

The original one they left it in too long  and he got a massive  kidney infection.

I went ballistic.

Now they do it tri monthly.

The ward staff also have learned to keep his notes to hand for when i visit so i can monitor  his vitals especially fluids in/out as he has congestive heart failure (which uncle denies) and needs restricting to 2 litres of fluid a day and not the 4-5 he was drinking due to the diabetes making him thirsty.
I also have to remind them to put his dietary restrictions on the whiteboard for the staff to make sure he is on a low potassium diet otherwise they give him normal diet and then wonder why his potassium rockets meaning he has to stay in longer till it comes down to 5.2.

One nurse said they didn't need it on the board said it didn't need on the board since everyone knew.
I pointed out that if they had someone on duty not familiar with the patients they would give him normal diet with the subsequent issues and me ending up having to have words..
She put it on the board.

We always said, uncle would only call a doctor when he was at death's door, he proved us  wrong since he garble texted me

Left to his own devices and him refusing to admit he is not well when he is obviously severely not well, he would have died multiple times in 2013, 2014, 2015 and several times this year.

He doesn't want to go to hospital so he will lie and minimize so that when he does decide he needs to be in, he is in for far longer than if he had gone in  when told.
As i have pointed out to him, whenever i have had to haul you into the doctor/urgent care or called 111 have i ever been wrong about you needing to be admitted to hospital? he hates that he has to say no :)
Last time  he was in for a procedure he was in for 2 weeks (he always has a wobble post procedure and his vitals play roulette)
They asked if he felt ready to go home as his vitals were within what was normal for him and he hadn't complained about feeling unwell.
He told them he was fine and they sent him home.
He turned up on the Friday night looking like death warmed up, in a wheelchair and clutching a very full bowl of vomit.
I said i am not taking him, take him back he should never have been discharged.
He refused and told the ambulance crew he got travel sick sometimes.
I called him out on it but he refused to go back and they couldn't force him.
That night we had theatrical vomiting and he was clearly unwell.
I called 111 and the doctor asked if he was conscious, she then said, never mind i can hear him throwing up from here!.

A paramedic was dispatched and told uncle he really should go back to hospital, uncle refused point blank, claiming he was fine when he clearly wasn't.
I had a word with the paramedic as he went out to get some sick bowls and he said we can't force him. I said i will monitor and if he is bad tomorrow I'll haul his ass down to urgent care.
Saturday he was stable and Sunday was back to the vomiting etc.
 This time when i called 111 uncle said he would go back in (this surprised both me and the 111 doctor)
We went in and then played hunt the vein for a cannula, the doctor (who was from Transylvania, which tickled me) had one arm and i took the other and between us we finally found a vein and had to use a child size needle otherwise his veins collapsed..
He was refusing pain meds despite it being clear he needed them (even the staff who knew him said he didn't look well)
Finally we got him to have 1000mg paracetamol iv which didn't work, so the doctor asked if he wanted something stronger?
Uncle said no, I said yes.
The doctor said too late, I've written the script and promptly shot him full of morphine which did the trick.
I asked if i could have some and the doctor said no (meanie, even though i told him i had M.E and arthritis)

It turned out my uncle had a massive kidney abscess which kept him in hospital for 5 weeks with a drain in his kidney for 4 and a half weeks.
Payne had just changed his nephrostomy but had had issues and  stuck his kidney full of holes trying to get the tube in (9 times he tried) Uncle was wetting the bed since every time he drank, the urine was leaking through the holes in his kidney into his abdomen and then through the holes in his skin  onto the bed.
I was not a happy camper.

Currently uncle now sees a different urologist most of the time and payne once in a blue moon when he can't get someone else to see uncle.

This is why i don't like him and he doesn't like me.
He is a twonk (politely phrased by me)

The one light moment when he has to see uncle is i always bring in a book concerning statement analysis,  such as i know you are lying, the secret life of pronouns,  effective interviewing and interrogation techniques 3rd edition.

This is why we don't like each other.


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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by Roxyroo on 03.07.16 18:30

@Hobs wrote:
@sandancer wrote:Many thanks Hobs for your interesting and informative post .I always learn so much from them .
You mention you met Payne , is it possible to give us more about that meeting ?
Like others I find it strange he was omitted from Crime watch ( along with the dogs ) . The Gaspar statements and Yvonne Martin have also been brushed under the carpet ! Why ?
What were the "few things " he would not discuss to establish the truth , something that would incriminate him or someone else in the group? Why was he allowed to get away with it ?
As JeanMunroes says " Surely , SURELY , that is perverting the course of justice "

Hi Sandancer.
For my sins, payne is one of the two urologists dealing with my uncle's stage 4 renal failure.
The man is a complete twonk, putting it politely.

My uncle had spoken about a dr.payne, i didn't know it was him until we met.
When he showed up at the ward door i thought he looked vaguely familiar but i didn't know why until my uncle told me who it was, then it clicked.

My Uncle has a stricture between his right kidney and his bladder which currently means he has a nephrostomy in his right side to drain the urine out. He will at some point need his right kidney removing which will mean dialysis.

Payne  had previously given my uncle a stent (a tube which widen and maintains the  ureter in this case, open to allow free flowing of urine from his kidney) Which caused multiple and severe UTI's which if my uncle had not been in my care, would have killed him.

He insisted that he was going to try and reinsert a new stent  in order to be able to remove the nephrostomy tube.
I refused point blank explaining why my uncle was not a suitable candidate for said procedure.
He explained it would be permanent whereas the other was temporary.
I again refused explaining in small words why it was not going to happen, my uncle meanwhile saying he was fine and that a stent was best etc whilst hiding under the covers.

Payne then said he would take another look at my uncle's kidneys using a telescope.

I was dumbstruck.
I turned into Father Crilly explaining near and far to Father Dougal.

I explained a telescope was used to see things far away, things like planets, stars and galaxies, not a kidney.
I told him the correct term was either endoscope or laproscope

He replied it was a very small telescope!


I then reiterated in plain English and again using small words ( i was suffering from a severe case of sarcasmitis by this time) that he would do no such thing given uncle's previews history of UTI's due to a stent.

His response was staggering in its stupidity.

He said "We cannot take into account a patient's past history when  looking at future treatment"
My uncle took one look at me and tried to dig his way through the mattress.

Seriously?

I was about to let rip when he turned around and made a fast walk for the door.
I was raging.
I made it clear that before any procedure was to be done on my uncle, even a simple  examination i was to be consulted or i would be having words.

Apparently what i said did the trick, they did an examination and tried to use a wire to get through the stricture since they couldn't get a camera though there so no stent.
Payne then said he could remove the stricture, i said no since uncle was diabetic among other things and he would heal slowly, the length of the stricture meant there would not be enough ureter to connect kidney to bladder.
The right kidney was so grossly abnormal it really should be removed soonest as it was causing so many issues, however, since they are pissing about regarding dialysis, they cannot do it really until they have created a fistula in his arm.
I pointed out then that since they were pissing about and with his other issues it will take months for the fistula to bed in.
They currently can no longer get blood from his arms due to all the scarring from cannulas, injections, blood samples so basically his arms are no longer an option.

He cannot have the
peritoneal dialysis option since he has the nephrostomy tube in.
This leaves either the neck or the leg.

The neck line is only in an emergency or for short term.

Uncle had a neck line when he first had kidney failure (he was working his way through the medical A-Z at the time including getting stuff i had never heard of and which was incredibly rare.)

It is not suitable for long term use unless they make it a cannula, with uncle's other health issues it wouldn't work.

The final option is a leg one, which payne  (and the other guy) hadn't heard of so i had to explain it to them!

Currently i am st6icking with the nephrostomy and insisting it be changed every 3 months.

The original one they left it in too long  and he got a massive  kidney infection.

I went ballistic.

Now they do it tri monthly.

The ward staff also have learned to keep his notes to hand for when i visit so i can monitor  his vitals especially fluids in/out as he has congestive heart failure (which uncle denies) and needs restricting to 2 litres of fluid a day and not the 4-5 he was drinking due to the diabetes making him thirsty.
I also have to remind them to put his dietary restrictions on the whiteboard for the staff to make sure he is on a low potassium diet otherwise they give him normal diet and then wonder why his potassium rockets meaning he has to stay in longer till it comes down to 5.2.

One nurse said they didn't need it on the board said it didn't need on the board since everyone knew.
I pointed out that if they had someone on duty not familiar with the patients they would give him normal diet with the subsequent issues and me ending up having to have words..
She put it on the board.

We always said, uncle would only call a doctor when he was at death's door, he proved us  wrong since he garble texted me

Left to his own devices and him refusing to admit he is not well when he is obviously severely not well, he would have died multiple times in 2013, 2014, 2015 and several times this year.

He doesn't want to go to hospital so he will lie and minimize so that when he does decide he needs to be in, he is in for far longer than if he had gone in  when told.
As i have pointed out to him, whenever i have had to haul you into the doctor/urgent care or called 111 have i ever been wrong about you needing to be admitted to hospital? he hates that he has to say no :)
Last time  he was in for a procedure he was in for 2 weeks (he always has a wobble post procedure and his vitals play roulette)
They asked if he felt ready to go home as his vitals were within what was normal for him and he hadn't complained about feeling unwell.
He told them he was fine and they sent him home.
He turned up on the Friday night looking like death warmed up, in a wheelchair and clutching a very full bowl of vomit.
I said i am not taking him, take him back he should never have been discharged.
He refused and told the ambulance crew he got travel sick sometimes.
I called him out on it but he refused to go back and they couldn't force him.
That night we had theatrical vomiting and he was clearly unwell.
I called 111 and the doctor asked if he was conscious, she then said, never mind i can hear him throwing up from here!.

A paramedic was dispatched and told uncle he really should go back to hospital, uncle refused point blank, claiming he was fine when he clearly wasn't.
I had a word with the paramedic as he went out to get some sick bowls and he said we can't force him. I said i will monitor and if he is bad tomorrow I'll haul his ass down to urgent care.
Saturday he was stable and Sunday was back to the vomiting etc.
 This time when i called 111 uncle said he would go back in (this surprised both me and the 111 doctor)
We went in and then played hunt the vein for a cannula, the doctor (who was from Transylvania, which tickled me) had one arm and i took the other and between us we finally found a vein and had to use a child size needle otherwise his veins collapsed..
He was refusing pain meds despite it being clear he needed them (even the staff who knew him said he didn't look well)
Finally we got him to have 1000mg paracetamol iv which didn't work, so the doctor asked if he wanted something stronger?
Uncle said no, I said yes.
The doctor said too late, I've written the script and promptly shot him full of morphine which did the trick.
I asked if i could have some and the doctor said no (meanie, even though i told him i had M.E and arthritis)

It turned out my uncle had a massive kidney abscess which kept him in hospital for 5 weeks with a drain in his kidney for 4 and a half weeks.
Payne had just changed his nephrostomy but had had issues and  stuck his kidney full of holes trying to get the tube in (9 times he tried) Uncle was wetting the bed since every time he drank, the urine was leaking through the holes in his kidney into his abdomen and then through the holes in his skin  onto the bed.
I was not a happy camper.

Currently uncle now sees a different urologist most of the time and payne once in a blue moon when he can't get someone else to see uncle.

This is why i don't like him and he doesn't like me.
He is a twonk (politely phrased by me)

The one light moment when he has to see uncle is i always bring in a book concerning statement analysis,  such as i know you are lying, the secret life of pronouns,  effective interviewing and interrogation techniques 3rd edition.

This is why we don't like each other.

Omg what a horrific time of it for yourself and your uncle! Even I've heard of putting a line into the leg if elsewhere is unavailable!

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by sandancer on 03.07.16 18:50

Wow , your poor uncle really has a tough time, then to be saddled with a "twonk" like Payne really makes you despair at the state of the NHS . How any of them made doctors I do not know ! It's a good job you are there otherwise heaven knows what would have happened to the poor man !


I love the thought of Payne twitching when he sees your reading matter , I can just see all the "err, erm, you know .you know " passing through his mind wondering who you really are. !!!

My best friend is at the moment recovering from a burst bowel ( sorry anyone who's eating their tea ). She has been "nil by mouth " for the past about 80 days only just started taking food but spent all her time telling staff , no I can' t fill in a meal form , no I haven't ordered breakfast etc I'M NIL BY MOUTH !!!!! It was written on the whiteboard, but that was behind the door ?
Thanks for your reply ,I hope your uncle sees some improvement . I will include him when I send healing energies to my friend if you don't mind ?

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by Verdi on 03.07.16 21:06

@Hobs wrote:  For my sins, payne is one of the two urologists dealing with my uncle's stage 4 renal failure.
The man is a complete twonk, putting it politely.



So it proved to be Doc Payne after all - last mention you weren't entirely sure, if I remember rightly.  Have you made a complaint to the GMC?  From what you say you've got very good grounds for a complaint against Payne for incompetence - or are you biding your time for the right moment.

glee 

Maybe given the situation I would think differently but on the surface, if I was confronted by Doc Payne or any practicing medic from the Tapas group in a professional capacity, I would be looking for an alternative.  I wouldn't wish to trust my health or that of anybody close to me to any one of that tribe - and I mean that most sincerely.

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by Hobs on 03.07.16 22:48

@Verdi wrote:@Hobs wrote:  For my sins, payne is one of the two urologists dealing with my uncle's stage 4 renal failure.
The man is a complete twonk, putting it politely.



So it proved to be Doc Payne after all - last mention you weren't entirely sure, if I remember rightly.  Have you made a complaint to the GMC?  From what you say you've got very good grounds for a complaint against Payne for incompetence - or are you biding your time for the right moment.

glee 

Maybe given the situation I would think differently but on the surface, if I was confronted by Doc Payne or any practicing medic from the Tapas group in a professional capacity, I would be looking for an alternative.  I wouldn't wish to trust my health or that of anybody close to me to any one of that tribe - and I mean that most sincerely.
I can be very patient and i am very good at what i do.
Uncle always knows when i have visited, even if he is elsewhere being examined/having a procedure.
The staff get really good at their job :)
I even had to show them how to make a proper hospital bed with hospital corners so that patients did not then  throw their bedding on the ground and ending up flaunting their bodily particles.
What they were doing was  laying the sheet and blanket on top of the bed with nothing tucked in at the bottom, resulting in bedding going awol every time the patient moved.

Payne  knows i am paying real close attention to him and i will complain when i feel it is needed and i will make my points of concern known (i am always polite though) thus far i am winning.
One time they had him scheduled for a procedure, i did a quick check and learned that it was totally not suitable for people with uncle's problems.  i made a call and made it clear said procedure was not going to happen and why.
They did a check of their own and realized he should have been pencilled in for a similar procedure that was suitable for him.
They made copious notes and did the correct procedure on him.
Since he has congestive heart failure as well his memory sucks and he can't remember what he is on med wise, his allergies or anything relevant.
I make sure his wrist bands are correct and his notes are current and if i am not sure or not happy i have a chat with staff to see what or why something is or isn't done.

I also had to fight to get  the various departments talking to each other since they weren't which caused issues.

Despite my uncle's best efforts and that of various staff, i have managed to keep my uncle up and mobile and well given his various health conditions.


Statement analysis is not recommended to be used on family and friends if you wish to keep them, in uncle's case i use both it and also i watch his body language to learn what is going on with him since he is a lousy liar, he minimizes and omits info.

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by sandancer on 03.07.16 23:26

Until recently I worked I Older Person's Mental Health ,caring for those with Alzheimer's and dementia , body language is so important . Being aware of your own and learning how to observe the changes in body language in those who have sadly lost the ability to communicate verbally and can no longer tell you how they feel ,if they are angry , in pain ,hungry need to use the toilet etc.
We also had to learn what used to be called Restraint which was always a last resort , but by being aware of the patients body language and again your own could generally be avoided ( the offer of a nice cup of tea worked wonders )
Watching the many videos of the McCanns I often find myself not listening but looking instead ,watching their body language which is saying something totally different .
I'm a great people watcher, sitting with a friend outside enjoying a coffee and a smoke we find ourselves discussing how folknbehave and what it could mean .

Oh dear I hope you don't t all think I'm weird now !!!

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by Verdi on 03.07.16 23:37

@Hobs

You hear such conflicting views about the state of the NHS, on the whole it's not very reassuring.  Not through the press, their reporting amounts to little or nothing in terms of truth and accuracy but from the people - those with direct experience.  It's very worrying to learn that the primary carers in a hospital environment i.e. the nursing staff, are not up to expected standards - they used to be considered the angels of the sick.  To be told the consultants etc are incompetent in the extreme is totally unacceptable - indeed frightening to contemplate.

Can't recall where Payne is based now but didn't he once work at Leicester, the same place as Gerry McCann?  Add that to GM's boss once being a named director of the Find Madeleine Fund Co Ltd  - what is this, jobs for the boys?  The old school tie network? 

A PACT of silence or what....???  I'll go with the what.

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by Verdi on 03.07.16 23:48

@plebgate wrote:Has anyone asked under FOI  (BBC) why Payne was left out of the Crimewatch progamme and why it wasn't shown in Portugal?
I'm also very interested to know why David Payne wasn't interviewed during the second round on 10th/11th May 2007.  I don't believe there has ever been an explanation.

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by Hobs on 04.07.16 0:58

@sandancer wrote:Until recently I worked I Older Person's Mental Health ,caring for those with Alzheimer's and dementia , body language is so important . Being aware of your own and learning how to observe the changes in body language in those who have sadly lost the ability to communicate verbally and can no longer tell you how they feel ,if they are angry , in pain ,hungry need to use the toilet etc.
We also had to learn what used to be called Restraint which was always a last resort , but by being aware of the patients body language and again your own could generally be avoided ( the offer of a nice cup of tea worked wonders )
Watching the many videos of the McCanns I often find myself not listening but looking instead ,watching their body language which is saying something totally different .
I'm a great people watcher, sitting with a friend outside enjoying a coffee and a smoke we find ourselves discussing how folknbehave and what it could mean .

Oh dear I hope you don't t all think I'm weird now !!!
Hi Sandancer.
I too spend many a happy hour people watching and chatting to strangers as we park our butts for a break.
People love to talk and i love to listen.
I love learning how people end up doing their job, if they have hobbies, pets, anything unusual and people love to talk about themselves.
I think people speak more freely with me as i am genuinely interested in what they are saying.
Some end up telling me their life stories or a personal problem, perhaps because i do not judge them, i listen and advise on suggestions if applicable and when i am asked.
I will recommend products if i see someone browsing something i have used previously or something better for what they are using it for, kitty litter as an example.
I like to see peoples faces when i say please and thank you, talking to shop staff who most times are ignored by customers and treated as part of the fixings.
I love watching how they interact with each other as well as with staff and other strangers.
The hum of conversations and the subtle dance of a populace going about its business.
It makes me feel good when i make someone smile or feel a bit better about themselves.
For some i can be the only person they speak to that day which is a sad indictment of our society

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Re: Dave Payne speaks to Portuguese Press on 4th May 2007

Post by Hobs on 04.07.16 1:06

@Verdi wrote:@Hobs

You hear such conflicting views about the state of the NHS, on the whole it's not very reassuring.  Not through the press, their reporting amounts to little or nothing in terms of truth and accuracy but from the people - those with direct experience.  It's very worrying to learn that the primary carers in a hospital environment i.e. the nursing staff, are not up to expected standards - they used to be considered the angels of the sick.  To be told the consultants etc are incompetent in the extreme is totally unacceptable - indeed frightening to contemplate.

Can't recall where Payne is based now but didn't he once work at Leicester, the same place as Gerry McCann?  Add that to GM's boss once being a named director of the Find Madeleine Fund Co Ltd  - what is this, jobs for the boys?  The old school tie network? 

A PACT of silence or what....???  I'll go with the what.

Hi Verdi.
These days, nurses are expected to have degrees.
They know about all the buttons, knobs and dials on a gadget yet have little to no idea about bedside manners or basic patient care.
I have come across nurses who feel that helping a patient to eat, or use the toilet beneath them.
That making sure a patient is comfortable and clean.
That pretty much patients should be handled as little as possible and are an intrusion on their time.

They fail to realize that a happy and comfortable patient will recover far quicker than one who is considered a nuisance and must be ignored.
Patient care and well being is bottom of the list sadly

____________________
The little unremembered acts of kindness and love are the best parts of a person's life.

Hobs

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