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Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

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Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by Guest on Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:28 pm

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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by Cherry on Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:37 pm

How refreshing as well to hear Montel say he doesnt know anyone who would leave their baby by themselves
and also to say that they wouldnt even be able to see the front door of the appartment from where they were sitting.

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He said

Post by ROSA on Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:38 pm

in the last 2 days there is evidence
pop2

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And he adds: "In reality, when the McCanns went to Oprah's Show, the blanket was mentioned. At a given moment, when Oprah tells Kate that she heard her mention a blanket several times, Kate argued that a mother who misses a child always wants to know if she is comfortable, if she is warm, and added, referring to Maddie, that sometimes she asked herself if the person who had taken her would cover her up with her little blanket (but the blanket was on the bed after Maddie, supposedly, disappeared!!!).

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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by Angelique on Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:35 pm

pop2

Pat Brown says the investigation is going very well!

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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by lj on Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:36 am

America's most wanted are big fans from the Smart family.

Gerry has wiggled his way into that family from day 1, probably thought that was a good marketing ploy too. So Smart is a "Madeleine is abducted disciple" (the abduction of his daughter has some strange aspects too so no surprise he joins another iffy case), therefore John Walsh is a "Madeleine is abducted disciple" and that shows through here.

It's a pity they did not emphasize some stronger points of the case against these pathetic parents.

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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by lj on Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:54 am

@Angelique wrote: pop2

Pat Brown says the investigation is going very well!

How would she know?

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Pat Brown thinks that Madeleine died btween 8.30pm and 9.05pm on Thursday 3 May 2007

Post by Tony Bennett on Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:12 am

I've skim read key points of Pat Brown's 'Kindle' book.

There are many points of interest.

She dismisses claims that 'The Last Photo' was photoshopped and dismisses other concerns about the various claimed 'sightings' of Madeleine on 3 May 2007.

Her belief is that Madeleine died, perhaps from over-sedation, between the McCanns strolling down for dinner at the Tapas restaurant at around 8.30pm and Dr Gerald McCann doing his check at around 9.05pm, when she says that she believes that he discovered Madeleine already dead, and then made a hasty plan to claim that Madeleine was abducted. I think (I am not sure) that she believes that the Smiths saw Dr Gerald McCann carrying a dead Madeleine McCann down towards the beach.

If she is right about that, then the absolute maximum time that Madeleine's corpse could have lain in Apartment G5A was about 75 minutes (say from 8.30pm to 9.45pm). As I understand it, a corpse has to have been dead for at least 90 minutes, usually 120 minutes, for sufficient human cadaverine to linger where a sniffer dog could detect the scent of a corpse months later.

If Pat Brown is right, Madeleine's body would have to have been moved within the space of 30 to 40 minutes (9.05pm to 9.45pm) from living room to the McCanns' bedroom to the veranda and then to the garden, which I consider to be most unlikely - even if I could accept that Madeleine died between 8.30pm and 9.05pm that evening.

I think therefore that Pat Brown is incorrect in her assumption about when Madeleine McCann died. I also consider that she has not given sufficient weight to the many contradictions and mysteries about what happened in the late afternoon and early evening of 3 May which I think are much better explained by an earlier death.

No doubt there will be some debate here about her conclusion.

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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by Guest on Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:30 am

I agree Tony. I think Pat used an opportune time, just after the release of Kate's book, to turn up the heat to gas mark 5. It will undoubtedly make the McCann's very nervous and quite angry. Perhaps to try and draw them out into some kind of confrontation, or to test what they do next?. Pat as we know works with the FBI. Halligen must have already been assesed by an FBI profiler. Perhaps she is using certain information to trip them up?

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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by lj on Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:43 pm

@Tony Bennett wrote:I've skim read key points of Pat Brown's 'Kindle' book.

There are many points of interest.

She dismisses claims that 'The Last Photo' was photoshopped and dismisses other concerns about the various claimed 'sightings' of Madeleine on 3 May 2007.

Her belief is that Madeleine died, perhaps from over-sedation, between the McCanns strolling down for dinner at the Tapas restaurant at around 8.30pm and Dr Gerald McCann doing his check at around 9.05pm, when she says that she believes that he discovered Madeleine already dead, and then made a hasty plan to claim that Madeleine was abducted. I think (I am not sure) that she believes that the Smiths saw Dr Gerald McCann carrying a dead Madeleine McCann down towards the beach.

If she is right about that, then the absolute maximum time that Madeleine's corpse could have lain in Apartment G5A was about 75 minutes (say from 8.30pm to 9.45pm). As I understand it, a corpse has to have been dead for at least 90 minutes, usually 120 minutes, for sufficient human cadaverine to linger where a sniffer dog could detect the scent of a corpse months later.

If Pat Brown is right, Madeleine's body would have to have been moved within the space of 30 to 40 minutes (9.05pm to 9.45pm) from living room to the McCanns' bedroom to the veranda and then to the garden, which I consider to be most unlikely - even if I could accept that Madeleine died between 8.30pm and 9.05pm that evening.

I think therefore that Pat Brown is incorrect in her assumption about when Madeleine McCann died. I also consider that she has not given sufficient weight to the many contradictions and mysteries about what happened in the late afternoon and early evening of 3 May which I think are much better explained by an earlier death.

No doubt there will be some debate here about her conclusion.

Tony the time that is needed to develop a "corpse odour" is in general 90 min.
There are many factors of influence amongst them:
-small and younger bodies develop cadaver odour quicker
-in higher temperature it goes quicker
-the physical situation of the body before death is important.


Madeleine is young and small, the Algarve is considered subtropical, so while maybe the temp was not high, it might be higher than where the studies where done, we don't know exactly what caused her death, so we don't know about her last hours and the physical condition it was in.

I don't think we should use the 90 min as an absolute rule.

What I like about her theory it uses the criterium simple from the start.
I don't believe in all kind of complicated reasons and construction (conspiracies).
Also don't forget they all drunk considerable amounts of alcohol,, enough to be over the legal limit. That limit is there because at that level your judgement is considerable impaired, even though for some it does not feel that way.

They could not make reasonable decisions, so don't expect "logic".

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http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by Bebootje on Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:04 pm

@Tony Bennett wrote:I've skim read key points of Pat Brown's 'Kindle' book.

There are many points of interest.

She dismisses claims that 'The Last Photo' was photoshopped and dismisses other concerns about the various claimed 'sightings' of Madeleine on 3 May 2007.

Her belief is that Madeleine died, perhaps from over-sedation, between the McCanns strolling down for dinner at the Tapas restaurant at around 8.30pm and Dr Gerald McCann doing his check at around 9.05pm, when she says that she believes that he discovered Madeleine already dead, and then made a hasty plan to claim that Madeleine was abducted. I think (I am not sure) that she believes that the Smiths saw Dr Gerald McCann carrying a dead Madeleine McCann down towards the beach.

If she is right about that, then the absolute maximum time that Madeleine's corpse could have lain in Apartment G5A was about 75 minutes (say from 8.30pm to 9.45pm). As I understand it, a corpse has to have been dead for at least 90 minutes, usually 120 minutes, for sufficient human cadaverine to linger where a sniffer dog could detect the scent of a corpse months later.

If Pat Brown is right, Madeleine's body would have to have been moved within the space of 30 to 40 minutes (9.05pm to 9.45pm) from living room to the McCanns' bedroom to the veranda and then to the garden, which I consider to be most unlikely - even if I could accept that Madeleine died between 8.30pm and 9.05pm that evening.

I think therefore that Pat Brown is incorrect in her assumption about when Madeleine McCann died. I also consider that she has not given sufficient weight to the many contradictions and mysteries about what happened in the late afternoon and early evening of 3 May which I think are much better explained by an earlier death.

No doubt there will be some debate here about her conclusion.

A agree Tony, for I think it is quite impossible -even if you have the right contacts- to set up an abduction scenario and dispose of the body in such short time.

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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by LittleMissMolly on Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:56 pm

@lj wrote:Tony the time that is needed to develop a "corpse odour" is in general 90 min.
There are many factors of influence amongst them:
-small and younger bodies develop cadaver odour quicker
-in higher temperature it goes quicker
-the physical situation of the body before death is important.


Madeleine is young and small, the Algarve is considered subtropical, so while maybe the temp was not high, it might be higher than where the studies where done, we don't know exactly what caused her death, so we don't know about her last hours and the physical condition it was in.

I don't think we should use the 90 min as an absolute rule.

What I like about her theory it uses the criterium simple from the start.
I don't believe in all kind of complicated reasons and construction (conspiracies).
Also don't forget they all drunk considerable amounts of alcohol,, enough to be over the legal limit. That limit is there because at that level your judgement is considerable impaired, even though for some it does not feel that way.

They could not make reasonable decisions, so don't expect "logic".

I totally agree lj ... simplicity appeals to me and I do tend to avoid the more complicated theories.

Also Pat Brown does point out that the McCanns version of what they did between putting the children to bed and arriving at the Tapas may not be true - ie that they may have been out of earshot even then (out of the apartment/having sex/on the veranda etc) and that, in such circumstances, Madeleine could well have died behind the sofa and remained un-noticed until Gerry's check. Which would considerably lengthen the time available for cadaver odour to develop.

For me one of the beauties of Pat Brown's profile is that here we have a theory from someone who, by the very nature of her job and contacts, is better placed than most of us to understand the restrictions (or not) of some of the technical stuff, like cadaver odour etc. This must be something that she has factored into her theory

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Pat Brown's theory of a death between 8.30pm and 9.00pm leaves many issues in the case unexplained

Post by Tony Bennett on Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:27 pm

@LittleMissMolly wrote:
@lj wrote:Tony the time that is needed to develop a "corpse odour" is in general 90 min. There are many factors of influence amongst them:
- small and younger bodies develop cadaver odour quicker
- in higher temperature it goes quicker
- the physical situation of the body before death is important.

Madeleine is young and small, the Algarve is considered subtropical, so while maybe the temp was not high, it might be higher than where the studies where done, we don't know exactly what caused her death, so we don't know about her last hours and the physical condition it was in. I don't think we should use the 90 min as an absolute rule.

What I like about her theory it uses the criterium simple from the start. I don't believe in all kind of complicated reasons and construction (conspiracies). Also don't forget they all drunk considerable amounts of alcohol, enough to be over the legal limit. That limit is there because at that level your judgement is considerable impaired, even though for some it does not feel that way.

They could not make reasonable decisions, so don't expect "logic".

I totally agree lj...simplicity appeals to me and I do tend to avoid the more complicated theories.

Also Pat Brown does point out that the McCanns version of what they did between putting the children to bed and arriving at the Tapas may not be true - ie that they may have been out of earshot even then (out of the apartment/having sex/on the veranda etc) and that, in such circumstances, Madeleine could well have died behind the sofa and remained un-noticed until Gerry's check. Which would considerably lengthen the time available for cadaver odour to develop.

For me one of the beauties of Pat Brown's profile is that here we have a theory from someone who, by the very nature of her job and contacts, is better placed than most of us to understand the restrictions (or not) of some of the technical stuff, like cadaver odour etc. This must be something that she has factored into her theory
Dealing with the points in the two posts above:

1. The 'norm' for human cadaverine to develop in order for a sniffer dog to be able to scent that cadaverine months later is 120 minutes, not 90. The 90 minutes period applies under certain unusual conditions. Here we are talking about a maximum of 75 minutes [8.30pm to 9.45pm] and that's assuming that Madeleine died the very moment the McCanns left her for the Tapas restaurant.

2. I think we can rule out claims of any body deteriorating rapidly because of the heat - because this was around dusk, 9pm, on a not particularly warm early May evening.

3. If you think through the scenario that Pat Brown puts forward, how credible is it that Dr Gerald McCann would openly carry a dead body for several minutes through the streets of Praia da Luz, barely half-an-hour after discovering her dead.

4. 'LittleMissMolly' says that "simplicity appeals to me and I do tend to avoid the more complicated theories". I have no problem with that statement but then LittleMissMolly puts forward claims that Madeleine died behind the sofa while the McCanns were out on the veranda etc., which intorduces a highly unlikely scenario just to get around the obvious problem that accoridng to what we have been told by experts in human cadaverine, 120 minutes is normall the lapse of time after death for it to produced.

5. Most of all, the 'death between 8.30pm and 9.00pm theory' doesn't account for all the contradictions and problems in the case that we know about. Take just for example these five sets of contradictions from the MMRG's '50 FACTS' leaflet:

1. The McCanns gave different accounts of whether they were both with Madeleine at tea-time on the day Madeleine was reported missing - and gave three different versions of who read the children bedtime stories the night Madeleine was reported missing: (a) Kate (b) Gerry or (c) they both did.

2. Kate McCann said that their friend Dr David Payne knocked on the front door of their apartment at about 6.30pm on 3 May, but was immediately sent away without ever entering. Dr Payne, however, said he came in, saw all three children dressed ready for bed, and stayed for at least several minutes.

3. The McCanns said the children were in their pyjamas by 6.30pm the night Madeleine disappeared, were bathed at 7.00pm and asleep by 7.30pm. But just a few weeks later, in his blog, Gerry McCann wrote: “The twins must like their new cots as they were asleep by 7.30pm which was most unusual”.

4. Dr Matthew Oldfield claimed he and his wife arrived at the Tapas bar at 8.55pm, but then went back to the Paynes’ apartment to chase them up as they were late. Dr Russell O’Brien confirmed that: “Matt, around 9pm, got up and said ‘I’ll go and drag them out’.” The Paynes flatly contradicted this.

5. Dr Matthew Oldfield changed his story several times. He said he did one ‘check’ on the children, then said he’d done two. He changed his story about the 2nd check, first saying that he walked by the McCanns’ apartment, later saying he’d entered it. Dr Kate McCann claimed Dr Oldfield said, at 9.30pm: I’ll check on Maddie for you”. Why didn’t he say: “I’ll check on the children?”

How many of these can be explained away by a death between 8.30pm and 9.45pm?

How can we explain the absence of Madeleine's DNA in that apartment [G5A]?

Why [if the 'last photo' is genuine, as Pat Brown claims it is], could that 'last photo' not have been produced that day, instead of three weeks later after Dr Gerald McCann had returned to England?

And so on.

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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by Guest on Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:29 pm

Now that Pat has joined this forum, I would love to know what she thinks about some of the entries made in the creche records, over on the Creche Enquiry thread.
http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2922-the-creche-enquiry

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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by Ringo on Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:21 pm

@Tony Bennett wrote:1. The McCanns gave different accounts of whether they were both with Madeleine at tea-time on the day Madeleine was reported missing - and gave three different versions of who read the children bedtime stories the night Madeleine was reported missing: (a) Kate (b) Gerry or (c) they both did.


http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39077415/Rebuttal-of-%22Fact%22-1

2. Kate McCann said that their friend Dr David Payne knocked on the front door of their apartment at about 6.30pm on 3 May, but was immediately sent away without ever entering. Dr Payne, however, said he came in, saw all three children dressed ready for bed, and stayed for at least several minutes.

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39077554/Rebuttal-of-%22Fact%22-2


3. The McCanns said the children were in their pyjamas by 6.30pm the night Madeleine disappeared, were bathed at 7.00pm and asleep by 7.30pm. But just a few weeks later, in his blog, Gerry McCann wrote: “The twins must like their new cots as they were asleep by 7.30pm which was most unusual”.


http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39077559/Rebuttal-of-%22Fact%22-3

4. Dr Matthew Oldfield claimed he and his wife arrived at the Tapas bar at 8.55pm, but then went back to the Paynes’ apartment to chase them up as they were late. Dr Russell O’Brien confirmed that: “Matt, around 9pm, got up and said ‘I’ll go and drag them out’.” The Paynes flatly contradicted this.


http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39077568/Rebuttal-of-%22Fact%22-4

5. Dr Matthew Oldfield changed his story several times. He said he did one ‘check’ on the children, then said he’d done two. He changed his story about the 2nd check, first saying that he walked by the McCanns’ apartment, later saying he’d entered it. Dr Kate McCann claimed Dr Oldfield said, at 9.30pm: I’ll check on Maddie for you”. Why didn’t he say: “I’ll check on the children?”


http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39077583/Rebuttal-of-%22Fact%22-5


Just in case you'd missed them Tony. Pat Brown might care to read them too and factor them into her musings.


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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by lj on Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:56 pm

For Tony:

I just don't want to quote the whole post from above, I always get lost.

From the carpet square study:
The most interesting question of all remains: that of how long must an individual be dead for his/her scent to be detectable by a trained cadaver dog? Answering this pertinent question was not part of our investigation, but we can point out that a postmortem interval of 2 h seems to be a safely recognizable interval for the detection of deceased tissue by trained cadaver dogs.

Development of cadaver odour starts at death. If parts of the body have for example a very bad circulation before death, it might even start before death.

We don't have temperatures but we know that even 1 or 2 or 3 degree difference will make a different speed of decomposition. My bet is that, even though it was night, the temp might well be 6 degrees higher than Bern or Hamburg for example.

To use such a dynamic process, that has so many variables, as a indicator of the time of death is not useful. I say this from a medical POV, maybe some of our LE people can shine their light on it.

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http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/

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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by LittleMissMolly on Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:32 pm

@lj wrote:For Tony:

I just don't want to quote the whole post from above, I always get lost.

From the carpet square study:
The most interesting question of all remains: that of how long must an individual be dead for his/her scent to be detectable by a trained cadaver dog? Answering this pertinent question was not part of our investigation, but we can point out that a postmortem interval of 2 h seems to be a safely recognizable interval for the detection of deceased tissue by trained cadaver dogs.

Development of cadaver odour starts at death. If parts of the body have for example a very bad circulation before death, it might even start before death.

We don't have temperatures but we know that even 1 or 2 or 3 degree difference will make a different speed of decomposition. My bet is that, even though it was night, the temp might well be 6 degrees higher than Bern or Hamburg for example.

To use such a dynamic process, that has so many variables, as a indicator of the time of death is not useful. I say this from a medical POV, maybe some of our LE people can shine their light on it.

I agree with lj Tony ... as a Funeral Director I come into contact with a lot of bodies and odour is such a variable thing ... some bodies never develop an odour discernable to humans, whilst others smell very strongly and distinctly even within an hour or so of death, particularly if the body has purged.

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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by lj on Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:52 pm

Ah LittleMissMolly , you have such a interesting profession!!

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http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/

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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by LittleMissMolly on Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:45 pm

@lj wrote:Ah LittleMissMolly , you have such a interesting profession!!

I love it thumbsup

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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by ROSA on Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:26 pm

i beleive she died on the 28th and the last photo then is photoshopped and they had time to plan their lies but Pats publishing of her article will open alot of eyes to many other facts about these criminals and their activityies on their family holiday of crime

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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by Angelique on Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:53 pm

@lj wrote:
@Angelique wrote: pop2

Pat Brown says the investigation is going very well!

How would she know?

lj

I think she as referring to her own investigation.

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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by lj on Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:22 pm

@Angelique wrote:
@lj wrote:
@Angelique wrote: pop2

Pat Brown says the investigation is going very well!

How would she know?

lj

I think she as referring to her own investigation.

Ah thanks Angelique, that makes sense.

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http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/

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Re: Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX

Post by Willo on Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:01 am

I just received an email notice of a comment on Amazon.

Someone has spent a lot of time debunking Pat Browns kindle book.

Some desperate claims made 'Honestbroker'. Clutching at any straw the poster comes out looking rather naive and not too clever. But that is no suprise.

The link to a very long post.

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/41720163/Analysis-and-Rebuttal-of-Pat-Brown%27s-ebook-%22Profile-of-the-Disappearance-of-Madeleine-McCann-%28UPDATE#PatBrownsTheory

This probably cost the fund a few more dollars. Unless the couple did their own research or perhaps it was too dark.

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Review of Pat Brown's book

Post by Marian on Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:12 am

Hello Willo. The review you have mentioned is by an infamous McCann supporter known as Jay Elles. If you search on this site (Jayelles as all one word) you'll see that there are times when she is extremely obnoxious.

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