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David Payne

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Re: David Payne

Post by Gillyspot on 19.06.11 10:41

newguest wrote:
ROSA Today at 6:47 am
Clarence the clown is just a mouth anything he says is a joke just another act who joined circus mccann


I can't understand why the McCanns need the services of Clarence Mitchell? Its obvious Mitchell is 'the link' to the press/media but regardless of what people see or read in the press/media about the case of Madeleine McCann it doesn't change the facts regarding child sex offenders (paedophiles) does it? The facts are (according to the Home Office supported website Parents Protect!) that 8 out of 10 children who are sexually abused know their abuser.

I think they have employed him for his connections to the civil service in Whitehall as he will certainly still have his finger on the pulse there I am sure.

As regards David Payne I am still surprised that nothing has come of Yvonne Martin's statement regarding recognising him from her job as a social worker. If he is innocent of any child abuse at the very least I would have expected a retraction from YM regarding this but nothing (how strange!)

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Re: David Payne

Post by pauline on 19.06.11 11:40

[quote="honeybunch"]
newguest wrote:
ROSA Today at 6:47 am
Clarence the clown is just a mouth anything he says is a joke just another act who joined circus mccann



As regards David Payne I am still surprised that nothing has come of Yvonne Martin's statement regarding recognising him from her job as a social worker. If he is innocent of any child abuse at the very least I would have expected a retraction from YM regarding this but nothing (how strange!)

yes indeed. Why has David Payne not called on the lawyers to refute the serious implications from Yvonne Martin's statement? What she said was serious for anyone but he is a doctor. Nobody would want to be treated by a doctor with such a question mark hanging over him.

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Re: David Payne

Post by Gillyspot on 19.06.11 14:10

also if Yvonne Martin recognised David Payne perhaps he also recognised her when she first went to see Kate. This would explain why he appeared to be persuading her not to speak with Yvonne (this seems quite likely if Yvonne has met him in her professional capacity and not as a colleague.

Does anyone know where David Payne worked etc before he met Mccanns in Leicester?

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Re: David Payne

Post by LittleMissMolly on 20.06.11 8:15

honeybunch wrote:also if Yvonne Martin recognised David Payne perhaps he also recognised her when she first went to see Kate. This would explain why he appeared to be persuading her not to speak with Yvonne (this seems quite likely if Yvonne has met him in her professional capacity and not as a colleague.

Does anyone know where David Payne worked etc before he met Mccanns in Leicester?

I used to know all this stuff ... but it's been a long time since I researched it all so I could be mis-remembering!

I believe that Gerry and David Payne met at Glasgow Royal Infirmary when they were Medical Students ... David Payne later transferred to Leicester to finish his training (where he shared a house with O'Brien) and he's been there ever since.

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yvones statement

Post by dragonfly on 26.06.11 15:37

Name: Yvonne Warren Martin

Profession: Social Services and Child Protection Manager

This diligence is accompanied by this PJ’s interpreter who is present in this Department, Mr Carlos Moura, as the deponent neither speaks nor reads the Portuguese language.

The deponent says that she has been living in Portugal for seven years on a part-time basis, in other words, she lives a few months of the year her home in Sargaçal and for the rest of the year lives in England, where she still works.

Last month of May, more precisely on the 4th of May 2007, the deponent was in Portugal, enjoying a holiday, when at about 07h00 she turned on the television and saw, on an English news channel (BBC or SKY NEWS), an appeal for British citizens on holiday in the Algarve to offer all possible support to a British couple that was on holiday in Praia da Luz and whose underage daughter had disappeared on the 3rd of May 2007.

As she works directly with situations of children at risk, and as she was very close to Praia da Luz, she went there with the intention of giving all possible support to the couple, and arrived there at about 09H30.

She clarifies that she did not leave immediately for Praia da Luz because she still had some personal things to do at home but left at around 09H00.

Initially, she could not locate the exact site where the family was spending their holidays. Upon seeing a police patrol car that passed close by her, she asked those policemen if they could show her the right location. She was thus accompanied by the patrol car to the apartment from where the child had disappeared and where the parents were staying.

On location there was a group of three people, two being males and one female.

She approached the group and identified herself.

Two members of that group, a male and a female, identified themselves as being the parents of the missing child, which is to say, the McCann couple.

The couple was visibly upset, and the mother was crying intensely.

The third person never identified itself, and upon the deponent’s insistence the couple replied that he was a close friend of the family.

She adds that this third person looked familiar to her.

Using the information that she had obtained on the news, she started by questioning the couple about how often they had checked on the children, obtaining the reply that people went to see them every hour.

As is normal and routine in her line of work, she questioned the couple whether Gerry was the biological father of the missing child, to which he replied that he was.

She clarifies that she asked this question because during the course of her 25 years of service working with children at risk, it is very normal that when a couple has a child and where the father or the mother is not a biological parent, the latter has a tendency to come and “fetch” his child.

After having obtained the verbal response from Gerry, the mother, Kate, asked what was going on as those questions should be asked by the police, which should be on location already and large numbers to find her daughter, who had been taken by a couple.

At this moment, the deponent noticed that the couple began to show doubts about her capacity (did Kate refer to her finding her boring?)and she immediately exhibited her official documents and credentials issued by the British government to calm them down.

Gerry took her documents and showed them to the third person, telling him that they were authentic and with a police certificate.

At this moment, the deponent wishes to clarify that, in England, anyone who works directly with children, whether a doctor, police officer or social worker, has to have a proper credential issued by the police and that this was one of the documents she showed to the McCanns.

Because she found it strange that Kate told her that her daughter had been taken by a couple, she tried to separate her from the other two individuals so that both could speak under more privacy, suggesting to Kate that they should go inside the apartment, which prompted for Kate to react aggressively and against such an idea and told her that they could speak on the street.

The deponent then asked her whether anyone from the Medical Centre had been with her as she was very agitated and needed some support, she answered no.

At this point, Kate told her that her daughter had disappeared 13 hours ago. It was about 10 in the morning.

Meanwhile a fourth individual came towards the group and identified himself as a journalist, and the deponent alerted the couple to the kind of statements they were about give and if it wouldn’t be better for them to remain silent.

At this moment, the third person, who was always near to the couple and the deponent, moved the couple away from her and the three of them talked in a hushed voice for some time.

After this, and leaving the couple behind him, he approached the deponent again and told her that the couple didn’t wish to speak any more with her, or with anyone else.

The deponent replied to him that if the McCann couple felt the need to talk to her later, she would be at their full disposal.

As she said earlier, this third person of the group is familiar to her, and thinks that she may have come across him in the course of her work, as a suspect or a witness.

Therefore, she describes him as tall man, height about 1,80 m, about 35 years old, of normal physical complexion, with short, dark hair, with a round face and with a scar on the left side of his face covering part of the eyebrow and cheek, using graduated glasses of small dimension with rectangular lenses, he spoke with a southern English accent and was wearing cream coloured trousers and a dark coloured polo shirt.

When asked whether she could identify him from a photograph or personally, the deponent said yes.

She adds that after having spoken to the McCann couple, she spoke to the resort manager, and after identifying herself, asked him whether there had been a break-in to enter the apartment where the child was, to which he replied no but that the door was open as were the shutters of one of the windows, which, according to Kate, should have been closed but were found open.

Nothing more was said. Reads, ratifies and signs.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Process 201/07.0 GALGS Vol. XIII, page 3429
Polícia Judiciária
Photographic Recognition File

On the 13th of June of 2007, at this CID of Portimão, Yvonne Warren has presented herself before me, José Monteiro, Inspector, to perform a photographic recognition.

Because this was solicited from her, she described the suspect, and she was presented with photographs of the several individuals that composed the McCann couple’s holiday group.

From the visualisation of the photographs, it resulted that she recognised David Anthony Payne, an individual that is portrayed in several pictures, as being the one that she mentioned in her statements and whom she supposedly already knew from another circumstance.
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/05/witness-statement-of-yvonne-warren.html

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I'm as much a sceptic as anyone but...

Post by Letterwriter on 26.06.11 21:41

...mine cuts both ways.

People keep dragging up this idea that Yvonne Martin perhaps thinks she possibly maybe remembers someone who vaguely looked like someone from the group.

Ok, but that isn't evidence.

For that recollection to be any use, you have to be able to place it sufficiently well to refer back to your files and pick out the person you were thinking of - and then get the documented facts from the files. Maybe it will be them, maybe it will be someone who just looks a little like them. Point is, vague maybes just don't mean an awful lot. Unless you think we should start convicting people based on a social worker's fussy memory?

No, till a relevant file, documenting actual events is found, then this memory means absolutely nothing to me. Especially as, if convicted of something 'improper' then either DP wouldn't be practicing or, at the least, a record would exist with the GMC's disciplinary committee.

So, until the memory leads to a file, then I'm not sure how useful this is - except as an unsubstantiated smear - which does no one any credit

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Yvonne Martin

Post by Marian on 26.06.11 22:26

I must agree with what Letterwriter has said - or should that be written? I have never placed too much importance on Ms Martin's statement; if she cannot identify precisely when and where she has seen David Payne before (if she ever has) I don't think that her information is of any help at all.

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Re: David Payne

Post by Guest on 27.06.11 8:21

If Yvonne Martin has a memory of David Payne and that memory was wrong, she would have been forced by now to confirm that she had got it wrong. It certainly would have been corrected by the time the case files had been released for millions to see.

It was not, which absolutely suggests that she was right.

David Payne has never challenged this either.

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Re: David Payne

Post by PeterMac on 27.06.11 8:57

Stella wrote:David Payne has never challenged this either.
The Curious Incident of the Payne in the Night-time ?

The suggestion by YM that she had met him before, with the implication that it was 'professionally', is potentially defamatory. Why has he remained silent ?
Come to think of it why had JT remained silent in the face of multiple accusations of lying, or at least of having made up the sighting ?
Why has O'Brien remained silent in the face of the allegations about his alleged 'visit' ?
Why have they all remained tight-lipped for so long ?
One might almost think there was a "Pact of Silence".

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Re: David Payne

Post by Guest on 27.06.11 9:01

@PeterMac wrote:
Stella wrote:David Payne has never challenged this either.
The Curious Incident of the Payne in the Night-time ?

The suggestion by YM that she had met him before, with the implication that it was 'professionally', is potentially defamatory. Why has he remained silent ?
Come to think of it why had JT remained silent in the face of multiple accusations of lying, or at least of having made up the sighting ?
Why has O'Brien remained silent in the face of the allegations about his alleged 'visit' ?
Why have they all remained tight-lipped for so long ?
One might almost think there was a "Pact of Silence".


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Re: David Payne

Post by Miraflores on 27.06.11 9:09

The suggestion by YM that she had met him before, with the implication
that it was 'professionally', is potentially defamatory. Why has he
remained silent ?

Quite often when a rumour goes round it comes from the one source repeated endlessly by different people, but what I find interesting in this case is that this suspicion about DP comes from two sources. There is YM's suggestion and there is the Gaspar's concern. As far as I am aware none of them knew each other, so must have formed their opinions independently. DP has remained silent about both.

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Re: David Payne

Post by Guest on 27.06.11 9:19

@Miraflores wrote:
Quite often when a rumour goes round it comes from the one source repeated endlessly by different people, but what I find interesting in this case is that this suspicion about DP comes from two sources. There is YM's suggestion and there is the Gaspar's concern. As far as I am aware none of them knew each other, so must have formed their opinions independently. DP has remained silent about both.

And that Miraflores highlights the most significant point of all. Two different sources, unknown to each other, yet both have concerns about the same man.

We must not forget that these two individuals are also professionals. One a Doctor, the other a Social Worker.

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Re: David Payne

Post by Bebootje on 27.06.11 10:44

Stella wrote:If Yvonne Martin has a memory of David Payne and that memory was wrong, she would have been forced by now to confirm that she had got it wrong. It certainly would have been corrected by the time the case files had been released for millions to see.

It was not, which absolutely suggests that she was right.

David Payne has never challenged this either.

Right. It was not only the rememberence of Yvonne Martin, but the combination with the Gaspar statements (that obviously aren't challenged either by the McCanns) that rises suspicion.
They are remarkably quit concerning this subject aren't they? Exept shouting pedofile relating to the "abductor"

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Perish the thought......

Post by Guest on 27.06.11 11:14

Further to the last posting re the paedophile angle being heavily emphasised, I can't get the expression "It takes one to know one" out of my mind.

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Re: David Payne

Post by newguest on 28.06.11 18:04

Stella Yesterday at 9:19 am

And that Miraflores highlights the most significant point of all. Two
different sources, unknown to each other, yet both have concerns about
the same man.

We must not forget that these two individuals are also professionals. One a Doctor, the other a Social Worker.

If we are to assume that these two individual professionals were
justified in reporting their concerns regarding David Payne then we must
question the the McCanns themselves in light of them actaully knowing
about these submitted reports/statements. The reference to Madeleine's
genitalia in Kate McCann's book seems to project the sexual exploitation
of her daughter onto someone personally unknown to her as if the sexual
exploitation of children is external threat, which of course is a myth. Perhaps this "projection"
is the only way Kate McCann can deal with what may have really happened
to happened to her daughter during that fateful holiday. Perhaps Kate
was fully aware of the "undesirable attention" Madeleine was receiving
from DP & other person's known to her and resented the attention her
daughter was receiving to such an extent that...........? Well, we may
never know but I feel if there is any truth to the reports about David
Payne resentment could prove to be a motive worth considering to explain any accidental death or homicide in this case.

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Re: David Payne

Post by Cherry on 28.06.11 18:17

I have heard before people coming out with the argument that DP cant be guilty of any wrongdoing cos he is still practising so it may be a relevant time to remind posters of this article. Therefore I think an open mind needs to be kept and not the possibility of DP being involved in anything being dismissed out of hand. That is not to say he is guilty of anything - we dont know.

DOCTORS WITH MAJOR CONVICTIONS STILL TREATING PATIENTS







The NHS has employed doctors with serious convictions






Sunday September 23,2007

By Lucy Johnston Health Editor







THOUSANDS of patients are being treated by doctors convicted of serious crimes or punished for appallingly non-professional conduct.


The Sunday Express examined hundreds of files and uncovered scores of medics who are allowed to practise in spite of committing shocking offences.

Under the law all cautions and convictions given to doctors have to be examined by their governing body, the General Medical Council.

However, in many cases the GMC allows the disgraced medics to continue practising, while issuing a warning or temporary suspension.

A small number of court cases hits the headlines. Others, including cases of assault, drink driving, drug abuse and domestic violence, remain unpublicised and can only be found in the archives of the GMC website.

The Sunday Express examined details of misconduct hearings over the last year and our inquiries uncovered:

Two doctors allowed to work after manslaughter convictions.

An anaesthetist who watched a movie, read a newspaper and fell asleep during surgery.

A medic responsible for a hit-and-run car crash who was suspended for just nine months.

A doctor who punched a woman in the face who was suspended for three months.

A physician who failed to report his concerns about morphine doses administered by the serial killer Dr Harold Shipman.

Our investigation comes two years after the Shipman inquiry called for a radical overhaul of the GMC, which was accused of “looking after its own” and doing too little to protect patients.

Dame Janet Smith, who led the Shipman inquiry, recommended that the GMC no longer has sole responsibility for assessing doctors’ fitness to practise. The GMC says it has made wholesale changes, but our research indicates the reforms have not gone far enough.

In a previous interview Dame Janet said: “I am by no means convinced that new GMC procedures will protect patients.” Magda Taylor, of patients’ group The Informed Parent, said: “Why would I want to go and see a doctor if he was a drug addict, done for manslaughter or had beaten someone up?

These cases show many are working who are not healthy minded.” Doctors convicted of the most serious offences can practise for months and even years while they await a GMC hearing.

Three years ago Dr Amit Misra and Dr Rajeev Srivastava were convicted of manslaughter due to gross negligence following the death of six-year-old Sean Phillips at Southampton General Hospital in June 2000 during a routine knee operation.

The doctors failed to react to obvious warning signs that Sean had developed an infection and he died.

Despite warnings from the hospital trust to the GMC, a police investigation and the subsequent manslaughter conviction in April 2003, the GMC did not take action until October 2005 – more than five years after Sean’s death.

A misconduct committee suspended Dr Misra from the register and allowed Dr Srivastava to practise under supervision.

In a GMC hearing last July, Dr Christopher Vella Bonnici was found guilty of failing to realise a 35-year-old patient was awake during surgery at a Birmingham hospital.

Weeks later, he watched a DVD on his laptop during an operation and in January 2004 another woman who was awake during surgery said she felt instruments being inserted.

Dr Bonnici was also found guilty of reading a newspaper and sleeping during other operations.

The GMC hearing concluded his conduct was “unprofessional, irresponsible and below standard”.

It suspended Dr Bonnici for a month. In another case last year, Dr Graeme Holt was convicted of assault in Glasgow.

He pushed a woman on to a bed and punched her in the face, severely injuring her. The GMC suspended him for three months.

Dr Szymon Jozef Niemiec failed to appear before a GMC hearing in January after his car struck a 12-year-old boy and he fled the scene. The GMC suspended him for nine months.

Many cases involve doctors convicted of drug offences. Dr Richard Archer, 41, pleaded guilty to stealing morphine, pethidine and diamorphine in King’s Lynn in July 2003.

Archer was a partner at the Heacham, Norfolk group of surgeries which cover the Queen’s Sandringham estate.

He received a 12-month suspended jail sentence. When the conviction was assessed by the GMC last December it ruled that Dr Archer, now practising in Wilmslow, Cheshire, could work under supervision for 12 months.

A spokeswoman for the GMC said: “Our primary concern is not protecting doctors but patient safety.

We try to hear cases as quickly as possible.” The Sunday Express contacted the doctors named in this report but they were either unavailable or declined to comment.

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David Payne

Post by juliet on 28.06.11 20:00

Who is the child David Payne is clutching in the holiday photos at PdL?

Is it Jane Tanner's daughter?

As I've said before, whoever it is really doesn't like the way he's squeezing her. Her hands are trying to push him away and her smile is a grimace.

He's like one of those dodgy old men most of us have come across in childhood, who pretend to "tickle" or hug when all they are doing is groping.

Sickening.

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David Payne

Post by Marian on 28.06.11 20:09

I've never seen the photo to which Juliet refers. Is it possible to post it on the site?

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Re: David Payne

Post by newguest on 28.06.11 20:09

Cherry Today at 6:17 pm

I have heard before people coming out with the argument that DP cant be guilty of any wrongdoing cos he is still practising

The GMC have allowed doctors to continue to practise despite being convicted sex offenders so that argument that DP can't be guilty of any wrongdoing because he is still allowed to practice is totally irrelevant as you can see from the following article:-
 
Doctor convicted of downloading child porn worked at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital

Jul 17 2010

A DOCTOR caught with a stash of 5,000 child porn pictures has been working at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital.

Stuart Ruthven worked in the hospital last month as part of a training programme.

In 2003, the then Royal Navy surgeon was convicted of making indecent photographs of children.

He was sentenced to an 18-month community rehabilitation order, and made to sign the Sex Offenders Register for five years.

A review panel of the General Medical Council (GMC) ruled that Dr Ruthven could continue to practise, with the condition he didn’t treat under-16s.

But, in December, 2008, that condition was revoked, meaning he can now work with children, and in entering the hospital he was breaking no laws, court orders or GMC rulings. Dr Ruthven, who is in his early 30s, is retraining as a pathologist, and worked in the children’s hospital as part of his study programme.

Children’s charity Kidscape say they have grave concerns about the medic’s freedom to practise. Director Claude Knights said: “The possession of indecent images of children represents a vile crime, which is even more despicable when the perpetrator is a doctor.

“The downloading of indecent images of children is never a victimless crime, and encourages this deplorable trade. Some people would question whether this doctor's sentence reflects fully the horror of his crimes.”

Dr Ruthven is understood to be employed by the Royal Liverpool and Broadgreen University Hospitals Trust, and is undertaking his training under the Mersey Deanery, and undertakes work placements in different hospitals.

The Deanery confirmed he worked at the children’s hospital between June 14 and 25. Alder Hey confirmed the doctor had worked in the hospital, but added he never actually treated patients.

ayne Shaw, director of human resources and organisational development at Alder Hey Children’s NHS Foundation Trust, said: “I can confirm that Dr Stuart Ruthven is a doctor in training and has never been employed by the trust. He did take a very short-term placement at the hospital as a requirement of his training.

“Dr Ruthven was fully supervised throughout this placement, during which time he did not have any direct contact with patients.”

Dr Ruthven, who also worked at the Countess of Chester Hospital in 2009, was caught during a national crackdown on internet child porn following a tip-off from the FBI.

Speaking at a GMC hearing in 2006, Dr Ruthven, who downloaded the images at his parents’ house in Flixton, Trafford, said in 2002, during a tour of duty on a submarine, he was driven “stir-crazy” by the conditions.

He added: “In 2003, I was in a situation where myself and many of my friends were frequenting strip bars. Pornography was fairly widespread and a common occurrence, and I had seen a lot. I was bored and looking to see what was out there and I was de-sensitised. I didn't go out specifically looking for child pornography.”

A spokesman for the Royal Liverpool and Broadgreen University Hospitals Trust said: “We currently act as lead employer for a large number of doctors across Merseyside who don’t necessarily work in our hospitals. Dr Ruthven, like other trainees, will work in placements at a range of NHS Trusts in Merseyside.”

Dr Ruthven was today unavailable for comment.

liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2010/07/17/doctor-convicted-of-downloading-child-porn-worked-at-alder-hey-children-s-hospital-100252-26871416/2/

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David Payne

Post by juliet on 28.06.11 20:32

Marian,
If you google "greyscale David Payne" you will find a set of photos of Payne and his daughter and the other child on the Pamalam site.

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Re: David Payne

Post by Gillyspot on 28.06.11 23:21

If you all read the "Madeleine" book by KM she shows that David Payne was one of the reasons (if not the main reason) that she didn't want to talk to Yvonne Martin and although KM has been most helpful with all the possible sightings of a lurker she is dismissive of the Smiths sightings (and indeed actually misquotes their evidence to the PJ and totally ignores the Gaspars' statements altogether.


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David Payne

Post by juliet on 29.06.11 20:03

Almost before they'd been asked the McCanns were on about how much they trusted their friends.

Given the fact that they supposedly didn't even know Tanner and O'Brien very well, or Oldfield and his wife, that seems odd.

The story is that their really good pals are Fiona and David Payne. But again, there seem to be a lot of question marks over Payne.

Weird too that he is so like Murat to look at.

So many questions of identity in this case.

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David Payne photos

Post by juliet on 29.06.11 22:40

Am I really the only person to wonder about the greyscale Payne photos - particularly in light of the Gaspar statements?
Who is that child? Why is he grabbing her?

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Re: David Payne

Post by Guest on 29.06.11 22:42

@juliet wrote:Am I really the only person to wonder about the greyscale Payne photos - particularly in light of the Gaspar statements?
Who is that child? Why is he grabbing her?

Photos here...........

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GREYSCALE_SNAPS.htm

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Re: David Payne

Post by Gillyspot on 30.06.11 8:16

candyfloss wrote:
@juliet wrote:Am I really the only person to wonder about the greyscale Payne photos - particularly in light of the Gaspar statements?
Who is that child? Why is he grabbing her?

Photos here...........

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GREYSCALE_SNAPS.htm

Are these supposed to be all of David Payne's photos because they all seem to be of children (only 2 aren't) and why so many photos of him holding the same 2 girls?

Are there photos available to see that were taken by any of the others in their party (or are they mixed in the PJ black and white files (that I cant tell who is who in)?

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