The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Hi!

A very warm welcome to The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ forum.

Please log in, or register to view all the forums, then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann.


Jill Havern
Forum owner

The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

LittleMissMolly said it all

Post by guestio on 08.06.11 14:55

Unlike dear Garth wishes to propagate, there are no conspiracy theories in what concerns the dogs findings. They did in fact find evidence. If that evidence could not be corroborated by the FSS, I guess it's their problem. I have trouble to believe that the amount of samples that were sent to them would amount to such a poor report. But they are/were the best in the world, weren't they?!!!!!

It just leaves us to question to whom are we confiding our lives....

guestio
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Garth on 08.06.11 15:18

I don't need to conjure up any other theories Garth .... as I've told you before - dead bodies do not operate to a time schedule. Whilst laboratory testing, in controlled conditions may not register the chemically measurable presence of cadaverine before a minimum 2 hours, I am categorically telling you, as someone who spends 8 hours a day around corpses, that some bodies emit a death smell that even humans can detect very soon after death.

It also strikes me that comparing scent - something that cannot be measured or tested - to chemical presence is somewhat nonsensical. Scientifically we have no idea whether cadaverine can be smelt by dogs long before it's chemical presence is at testable levels


-----------------------------
 
I am only going on what the report says remember!
 
But your post is interesting, you say that scent (or odour - same thing) can not be measured? I would have thought that any odour given off is infact minute particles that the hairs in our nostrils pick up. A dogs is far more acute obviously than our own. If it is particles (chemicals) given off then surely they can be measured?
 
So going back to your point raised about bodies not operating to a time schedule, the point to remember is that the experiement was measuring particles given off at set time and whether the sniffer dogs recognised these minute particles at these early stages? And another point to remember is that if these particles given off at the very early stages of death are so minute then it would be logical to assume that they could easily be 'tainted' with other smells, or odours that are far stronger!
 
And that was the point of the exercise.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Atilliator on 08.06.11 15:20

I already knew that the plea bargaining did not exist in the Portuguese legal system, although there might be ways around it. I would not know: one would have to ask a Portuguese criminal lawyer. KM had clammed up, and she is sitting there with her lawyer, and, maybe, her spin doctor as well. They are going to try any ploy they've to get her to talk. Here is the ideal from the police's point of view. It is the interview technique that has been used for generations.
You are interviewed. Everything you say is taken down. They then investigate what you say. If the investigation shows something that contradicts what you say, they will interview you again, and confront you with the contradiction. They will then reinterview you on the things you have said before. Anything that contradicts what you said before, and so on... Eventually, there are so many contradictions, that you will just cave in and confess. The principle is: "No liar has that good a memory."
You can prevent the police from doing this by clamming up. I think she was interviewed first, so she was able to warn GM what the questions were, so that he would have some answers ready. Then, before another interview was called, they hopped a plane. End of problem...for the time being.
Similarly, when MO was called, they accused him of handing or receiving Madeleine out the window. Again this is a ploy by the police. They already knew Madeleine was not handed out the window. Why bother with the bedroom window, when the french windows are unlocked? It is an attempt by the police to draw information out of MO. "No, that's not how it happened..." Like I've said, Amaral knows what's been happening. He's a senior(ish) police officer in the area: he's GOT to know.

Atilliator

Posts : 25
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-06-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

To Atilliator

Post by guestio on 08.06.11 15:39

There's no way the PJ could have tried to use any deceiving technic like that with Kate, because she was always accompannied, if not by her lawyer, by her public relations, and there were also the translators... In fact, if you recall it was their PR lady that gave the Media all the goodies about the arguido state of Mrs. Healy. The day after it was the lawyer, in relation to Mr. McCann.

In any case, even thought I have no time to try to recollect it, I remember that there was a declaration made either by Gonçalo Amaral or by Inspector Ricardo, where they stated that she was close to crack out and suddenly there was an intervention by a superior that impeded that to happen...

If I have the time tonight I'll try to recover this declaration - I'm not sure if it was still during the Mirror Forum or already during the 3As' time. I'll look for it.

guestio
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Guest on 08.06.11 15:45

guestio wrote:There's no way the PJ could have tried to use any deceiving technic like that with Kate, because she was always accompannied, if not by her lawyer, by her public relations, and there were also the translators... In fact, if you recall it was their PR lady that gave the Media all the goodies about the arguido state of Mrs. Healy. The day after it was the lawyer, in relation to Mr. McCann.

In any case, even thought I have no time to try to recollect it, I remember that there was a declaration made either by Gonçalo Amaral or by Inspector Ricardo, where they stated that she was close to crack out and suddenly there was an intervention by a superior that impeded that to happen...

If I have the time tonight I'll try to recover this declaration - I'm not sure if it was still during the Mirror Forum or already during the 3As' time. I'll look for it.

GONÇALO AMARAL WITH GUILHERMINO ENCARNACAO

The man who became known in the investigation for having prevented Gonçalo Amaral from carrying out the interrogation of Kate McCann at a moment when she was, according to several inspectors who were present on location, “ready to talk”

http://duartelevyen.wordpress.com/2009/02/23/the-many-%E2%80%9Ccasualties%E2%80%9D-of-the-maddie-case/

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Guest on 08.06.11 15:46

guestio wrote:There's no way the PJ could have tried to use any deceiving technic like that with Kate, because she was always accompannied, if not by her lawyer, by her public relations, and there were also the translators... In fact, if you recall it was their PR lady that gave the Media all the goodies about the arguido state of Mrs. Healy. The day after it was the lawyer, in relation to Mr. McCann.

In any case, even thought I have no time to try to recollect it, I remember that there was a declaration made either by Gonçalo Amaral or by Inspector Ricardo, where they stated that she was close to crack out and suddenly there was an intervention by a superior that impeded that to happen...

If I have the time tonight I'll try to recover this declaration - I'm not sure if it was still during the Mirror Forum or already during the 3As' time. I'll look for it.


Yes. I remember reading that too somewhere guestio, a long time ago now. Justine McGuiness, said that she had been texting out of the police station that day, she thought it was highly amusing.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Thanks

Post by guestio on 08.06.11 15:48

Thanks Admin      That's it.

You are great!

guestio
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Atilliator on 08.06.11 15:49

guestio wrote:There's no way the PJ could have tried to use any deceiving technic like that with Kate, because she was always accompannied, if not by her lawyer, by her public relations, and there were also the translators... In fact, if you recall it was their PR lady that gave the Media all the goodies about the arguido state of Mrs. Healy. The day after it was the lawyer, in relation to Mr. McCann.

In any case, even thought I have no time to try to recollect it, I remember that there was a declaration made either by Gonçalo Amaral or by Inspector Ricardo, where they stated that she was close to crack out and suddenly there was an intervention by a superior that impeded that to happen...

If I have the time tonight I'll try to recover this declaration - I'm not sure if it was still during the Mirror Forum or already during the 3As' time. I'll look for it.


The term the lawyer used was "misunderstanding." It happened, Guestio.

Atilliator

Posts : 25
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-06-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by guestio on 08.06.11 15:57

Atilliator, in advocates language, that means "she lied". What did you expect him to say?!

The fact is that he went to defend them "pro bono" and he has abandomned them. He doesn't even give any interviews about them.

guestio
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Garth on 08.06.11 15:58

Here's another interesting snippet from wiki for your perusal....
 
 Humans have a surprisingly good sense of smell even though they only have 350 functional olfactory receptor genes compared to the 1,300 found in mice correlated to an evolutionary decline in sense of smell. Humans remarkable sense of smell is just as good as most animals and can distinguish a diversity of odors- approximately 10,000 scents. This is because of the retro nasal route in humans to increase sensation. However, animals such as dogs show a greater sensitivity to odors than humans especially in studies using short chained compounds. Higher cognitive brain mechanisms and more olfactory brain regions enable humans to discriminate odors better than other mammals despite less olfactory receptor genes.[6]
 
 
[sup]So dogs have better receptors but are more likely to confuse scents![/sup]

Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Guest on 08.06.11 15:59

The reason being, no win, no fee. It says it all really.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Coming back to the "conspiracy theories"

Post by guestio on 08.06.11 16:04

Thanks to Admin, there is one news report related to what I had alluded previously: The fact that Mrs. McCann was not "broken out", when she was ready too, because there was the intervention of a superior....( I remember there are other news about this, but what the ADM supplied is more than enough)

If you allow me, from


Guilhermino Encarnação, a joint national director, responsible for the
Directory of Faro at the moment when Madeleine McCann disappeared, may
be the next confirmed casualty in this case. The man who became known in
the investigation for having prevented Gonçalo Amaral from carrying out
the interrogation of Kate McCann at a moment when she was, according to
several inspectors who were present on location, “ready to talk”
, has
been on long-term leave due to health issues and is not returning to
active anymore.

guestio
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by guestio on 08.06.11 16:09

Since when is Wicki a reference to anything reliable?
Even you can enter there and falsify the data at you own pleasure...

guestio
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by MrsC on 08.06.11 16:15

candyfloss wrote:


I did read an article a few years ago, long before this case, that when a person is dying, and has been ill for a long time, various parts of the body stop functioning or shut down, ie. the liver, kidneys etc - in other words parts of the body start to fail one by one, and give off a certain odour, a sort of smell of death.


On our local news (Anglia) a couple of years ago there was a report on how a dog had been trained to smell the change in odour of a young girl with very severe diabetes. This dog could detect a change in the girls blood long, long before she even began to feel unwell. Therefore giving her ample warning of an oncoming attack ~ the dog even went to school with her. Isn't that amazing?!

MrsC

Posts : 246
Reputation : 31
Join date : 2011-05-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by ufercoffy on 08.06.11 16:22

Hi Mrs C and welcome

That dog does indeed sound amazing.

And then we have dogs who can detect cancer and those that help the blind - all these trained dogs are just amazing. I wonder why Gerry McCann doesn't dismiss those dogs, only the ones who wagged their tail at him and his liar wife.

____________________
Whose cadaver scent and bodily fluid was found in the McCann's apartment and hire car if not Madeleine's?  Shocked

ufercoffy

Posts : 1641
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2010-01-04

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Garth on 08.06.11 16:26

You're right, its just like that new soap powder 'suds' ........that's firkin amazing too!
 
Anyway, back to your point. My mates dog knows exactly when his owner is coming home. He stands by the front door wagging his tail and hey...........five minutes later he turns up!
 
Now, I know we can accuse RB of forgetting to wash on the odd morning but sensing him from possibly a mile away in his car is bleedin amazing!
 

Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Atilliator on 08.06.11 16:29

guestio wrote:Atilliator, in advocates language, that means "she lied". What did you expect him to say?!

The fact is that he went to defend them "pro bono" and he has abandomned them. He doesn't even give any interviews about them.

Maybe you're right. My interpretation is that terms like "misunderstanding" and "breakdown in communications" cover a multitude of sins. But look at it like this. Don't fall for all that bullpats in the UK press about the Portuguese police being stupid. They're not. These people are professionals. KM might be the first person to turn up with a spin doctor, but she is not the first to turn up with a lawyer and a consul-approved interpreter. And she is certainly not the first to clam up. The police know all the rules, and they know all the tricks to bend them. They know how to provoke people into talking, they know which approaches to use. They know they can't use the intercepted mobile phone texts between the McCs as evidence, but they intercepted them anyway. Of course, they offered her a plea bargain, even if they did know it wasn't worth the paper it's not printed on. And they couched the wording in such a way that legally it was all fine'n'dandy.

Atilliator

Posts : 25
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-06-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by guestio on 08.06.11 16:37

MRS. C we have in Portugal an experimental project with cats in the attempt of trying to identify if people are afflicted with diseases, mainly cancer. It seems that animals can detect certain body malfunctions earlier than the actual medical technology.


I have great expectations upon the use of cats and dogs for medical diagnosis because to have senses so hightened that probably our technology has not been able to provide yet - and most of all they have thousands of years of learning to live with humans and try to understand them in order to survive: no machine can supplant that. I  believe (not as any sort of faith, but expectation) that our closest friends in the mamal species have very accurate senses that if we ask them, they will put forward to our well being.

I've never offered as a foster house for a police, search, or any other sort of transicional educational situation for animals, because I'm too egotistical and I would not survive being separated from those animals, but if I could I would love to contribute for all those researches that study the potencials of the animals, in a good way (unfortunately we also know how animals were used in the war).

guestio
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by LittleMissMolly on 08.06.11 16:48

@Garth wrote:I am only going on what the report says remember!

But your post is interesting, you say that scent (or odour - same thing) can not be measured? I would have thought that any odour given off is infact minute particles that the hairs in our nostrils pick up. A dogs is far more acute obviously than our own. If it is particles (chemicals) given off then surely they can be measured?

So going back to your point raised about bodies not operating to a time schedule, the point to remember is that the experiement was measuring particles given off at set time and whether the sniffer dogs recognised these minute particles at these early stages? And another point to remember is that if these particles given off at the very early stages of death are so minute then it would be logical to assume that they could easily be 'tainted' with other smells, or odours that are far stronger!

And that was the point of the exercise.






First of all I would like to point out that smell is not picked up by the hairs in our nostrils (whose purpose is purely to filter out physical particles like pollen and dust) ... it is chemoreceptors which are responsible for transmitting electrical impulses to the brain in respect of odours... however scientists are still exploring how this works even in humans, with our limited amount of chemoreceptors.

The truth is that they simply don't know exactly how it works... and as such it is impossible to make definitive statements about this sense - especially so in the case of dogs/cats etc. After all, if scientists cannot yet explain the precise mechanism in humans (who can, after all, voice what they are smelling) then they sure as hell can't make any assumptions in respect of those speechless species who have vastly greater olfactory capabilities.

As for the report ... well even putting aside the issue that scientists are as yet unable to ascertain precisely how we pick up odorants, process them and interpret them as smells, that research was carried out on a limited number of bodies, under controlled conditions and with a limited amount of dogs who were trained in unknown ways and have unstated track records ... so pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Kind of like those anti-wrinkle cream adverts where 80% of 40 women thought it had made a difference

____________________
Joseph Goebbels (a man who ought to know):
If you tell a lie big enough and repeat it often enough then the public will eventually believe it

LittleMissMolly

Posts : 152
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-05-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Garth on 08.06.11 17:01

The truth is that they simply don't know exactly how it works... and as such it is impossible to make definitive statements about this sense - especially so in the case of dogs/cats etc
------------------------------------------------
 
Ok, so would it be fair to say that for that very reason, we cannot make a definitive claim about what the dogs react to unless there is corroborating evidence.......................which, in this case, there wasn't!

Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

I'm a little late

Post by guestio on 08.06.11 17:23

LittleMissyMolly

that remark about the rejuvenating creams was delicious! 

I doubt if the person understood the implications, but that it is his problem. I agree with your posts. In fact science has gone a long way but has many undetermined ventures yet to be able to explain rationally.

The dangers we face are exactly the use of science that has not been totally ascertained as truth. Like the ones that COMARE tries to sell to the British public.

I believe that science's truthfulness (to the Science World Forae) is still beyond the reality of it's application, and it's use has no ethics to support it.

The use and abuse of human beings for every sort of experiment, attributed to the nazi, the soviets and alikes have been performed for decades in the USA, and in the UK and other allies...But nobody cares! Everyone is deaf when the reality becomes too painful.
___________________________________


But getting back to the use of cats and dogs for medical or rescue purposes; they are in fact the animals that have been around humans for more time than any other (even humans), and they have developped an incredible mechanism of survival to be able to be around us. They know us better than any other person and I think they can know when our body is not functionning as it should.

I've had personal experience with cats: I've survived a minor stroke because when I fell down my cats got on my chest and their pawing and the fact that they rested their own chests upon me made my heart get on the rythm. [unfortunatelly one of them died little after with cancer].

guestio
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by LittleMissMolly on 08.06.11 17:27

@Garth wrote:The truth is that they simply don't know exactly how it works... and as such it is impossible to make definitive statements about this sense - especially so in the case of dogs/cats etc
------------------------------------------------

Ok, so would it be fair to say that for that very reason, we cannot make a definitive claim about what the dogs react to unless there is corroborating evidence.......................which, in this case, there wasn't!

Not really Garth - because with these two particular dogs, there is a proven history of them alerting and their 'alerts' being confirmed by corroborating evidence - a 100% proven history.

We don't necessarily have to understand how something works in order to understand that it does....

Let me provide an example. Prior to 1687 scientists had no idea that tides were caused by the gravitational pull of the sun and moon ... but the tides indisputably still came in and out before that date.

____________________
Joseph Goebbels (a man who ought to know):
If you tell a lie big enough and repeat it often enough then the public will eventually believe it

LittleMissMolly

Posts : 152
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-05-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by LittleMissMolly on 08.06.11 17:35

guestio wrote:I've had personal experience with cats: I've survived a minor stroke because when I fell down my cats got on my chest and their pawing and the fact that they rested their own chests upon me made my heart get on the rythm. [unfortunatelly one of them died little after with cancer].

That's really interesting .... and falls into line with recent research into the importance of skin to skin contact for newborn and premature babies in respect of regulating their heartbeat and breathing.

There are more things in heaven and earth Horatio than are dreamt of in your philosophy

____________________
Joseph Goebbels (a man who ought to know):
If you tell a lie big enough and repeat it often enough then the public will eventually believe it

LittleMissMolly

Posts : 152
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-05-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by lj on 08.06.11 17:37

@MrsC wrote:
candyfloss wrote:


I did read an article a few years ago, long before this case, that when a person is dying, and has been ill for a long time, various parts of the body stop functioning or shut down, ie. the liver, kidneys etc - in other words parts of the body start to fail one by one, and give off a certain odour, a sort of smell of death.


On our local news (Anglia) a couple of years ago there was a report on how a dog had been trained to smell the change in odour of a young girl with very severe diabetes. This dog could detect a change in the girls blood long, long before she even began to feel unwell. Therefore giving her ample warning of an oncoming attack ~ the dog even went to school with her. Isn't that amazing?!

Both so true, don't forget the epilepsy warning dogs.

I was involved in one of those dogs-melanoma studies.

I believe if we can not confirm dogs findings, it is the limitations of our methods and tests, not because the dog is wrong.

____________________
"And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment, why would that be our fault?"  Gerry

http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/

lj

Posts : 3280
Reputation : 153
Join date : 2009-12-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Garth on 08.06.11 17:52

Then that then begs the question Molly, have the dogs ever alerted to a body that died within 2 hours?
 
That, and I say again, was the whole point of the experiement wasnt it? To make sure the dogs can identify the gases given off in the very early stages of decomposition.
 
Do we have any evidence of this?

Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum