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Did Madeleine have coloboma?

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by Guest on 07.10.12 0:20

It's also on this link.

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5197p40-anyone-seen-this-photo-before#124418

The coloboma is showing in that photo.

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by tigger on 07.10.12 8:06

Jean wrote:It's also on this link.

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5197p40-anyone-seen-this-photo-before#124418

The coloboma is showing in that photo.

It's trickier to get it in when the face isn't upright. In other photos where she's lying down (the skirting board one) it's at about 6 o'clock, this one here about 6.30 I'd say. Seven is the most common one.


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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by jd on 07.10.12 9:42

kate mccann looks so much that this was taken of her in 1998 or around these years, this is never her in 2005, not in a million years, child with coloboma or not. Looks more around the time of her passport photo, she looks far too young and fresh faced. I don't think this is Maddie either, looks nothing like her or any picture I have seen of her. This child also looks like a boy

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by Guest on 07.10.12 9:49

I've lost track a bit here, JD, too early in the day! Are you talking about the baby photo to which I posted a link? It must have been taken in 2003, not 2005, and while we can't state for sure if the baby is Madeleine, it's more believable than some other photos.

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by tigger on 07.10.12 9:54

@jd wrote:kate mccann looks so much that this was taken of her in 1998 or around these years, this is never her in 2005, not in a million years, child with coloboma or not. Looks more around the time of her passport photo, she looks far too young and fresh faced. I don't think this is Maddie either, looks nothing like her or any picture I have seen of her. This child also looks like a boy

I have to agree with that, It's not just that she looks younger, she doesn't have that expression on her face - discontented, the puffy eyes, the lines around her mouth etc. which were already evident in early 2007. It can't be 2005 just after delivering twins!

I'm guessing somewhere in her late twenties, posing with a baby of a friend. Quite possibly a boy. When I see that photograph it's a reminder of what could have been. No big disappointment with marriage and children written all over her face.

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by Da Troof on 07.10.12 11:16

Too much wild speculation here for my liking. I think the child looks like M, though it is impossible to say whether the child is a boy or a girl.
K looks younger than in 2007, but it could well have been taken when she was pregnant with the twins and "blooming".

It is wild speculation of this sort that allows the McC's to portray forums like this as ridiculous.


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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by tigger on 07.10.12 20:49

from Wikipedia:
The incidence of coloboma is estimated at around 0.5 to 0.7 per 10,000 births, making it a relatively rare condition.[3]
Perhaps the most famous people with coloboma are John Ritter, Henry Cavill, Danielle Minton, New York Times columnist Andrew Ross Sorkin, tennis player Arnaud Clément, alternative rock singer songwriter Lachi and Madeleine McCann. McCann, a British girl, disappeared from the vacation resort rented by her parents in May 2007 just before her fourth birthday. Posters and online campaigns promoting the search for Madeleine use the word "Look" with the first "O" in the word being drawn in the shape of a coloboma radius extending from the pupil at the 7 o'clock position.
unquote.

They never made much of it, according to Healy in April 2011.. Madeleine is unique in having apparently a coloboma that moves or on occasion isn't present at all, as can be seen in film clips and photographs.

If there was no coloboma, publishing photographs with that feature more or less ensured that no such child would be found for the simple reason that no such child ever existed.

When there was a reaction last year about the Indian sighting of a supposed Maddie, a photograph allegedly was sent, but the coloboma wasn't mentioned at all. Surely with any possible sighting all that needs to be done is to see if the right eye has this feature. Quick and easy elimination of non-Maddies.
Same with the Spanish sighting, the German one etc.
But no, not a peep out of TM. Imo it's fake.Coloboma is off the menu.

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by Miraflores on 07.10.12 21:17

Coloboma is off the menu.

I'm not sure about that tigger. I think it's possible that Madeleine did have a coloboma simply because she was a product of IVF and this process is known to produce a greater degree of birth defects. Indeed, the bewk, from what I recall, said that the eggs were beginning to deteriorate before Kate had them implanted.

I don't think we can rely on photos, to say what was there or not. E.g. sometimes the lighting used distorts the photo.


What I would like to know, is why they changed their story from the coloboma being the main focus of the publicity to them declaring that they had never made much of it.

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by Guest on 07.10.12 22:00

@Miraflores wrote:[...]

What I would like to know, is why they changed their story from the coloboma being the main focus of the publicity to them declaring that they had never made much of it.
***
One of the many questions, Miraflores, one of the many ...

If one would compare their statements "then" and "now" or "recently" there wouldn't be anything coherent between them.

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by jd on 08.10.12 2:03



Regardez dans mes yeux in English (with an old picture) means "look into my Eyes"

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by jd on 08.10.12 2:15

@tigger wrote:
@jd wrote:kate mccann looks so much that this was taken of her in 1998 or around these years, this is never her in 2005, not in a million years, child with coloboma or not. Looks more around the time of her passport photo, she looks far too young and fresh faced. I don't think this is Maddie either, looks nothing like her or any picture I have seen of her. This child also looks like a boy

I have to agree with that, It's not just that she looks younger, she doesn't have that expression on her face - discontented, the puffy eyes, the lines around her mouth etc. which were already evident in early 2007. It can't be 2005 just after delivering twins!

I'm guessing somewhere in her late twenties, posing with a baby of a friend. Quite possibly a boy. When I see that photograph it's a reminder of what could have been. No big disappointment with marriage and children written all over her face.

The child with kate mccann has grown hair as well as is at least 2 years old to have this amount of hair and be developed from a new born. Below is Maddie and kate mccann in other pictures at "alledgely" the same age and time...see any resemblance? because I don't see anything at all!!!! They are not totally different but totally different ages...and the child looks a totally different sex


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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by Ribisl on 08.10.12 4:25

@Da Troof wrote:Too much wild speculation here for my liking. I think the child looks like M, though it is impossible to say whether the child is a boy or a girl.
K looks younger than in 2007, but it could well have been taken when she was pregnant with the twins and "blooming".

It is wild speculation of this sort that allows the McC's to portray forums like this as ridiculous.

I agree with you totally. Too many groundless speculations of this kind and misrepresentations of data can only deflect our debate from searching for the truth, and throw a poor light on the really valuable work done on this forum.

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by tigger on 08.10.12 6:06

They never made much of it, according to Healy in April 2011. Madeleine is unique in having apparently a coloboma that moves or on occasion isn't present at all, as can be seen in film clips and photographs.

Since there was no coloboma, publishing photographs with that feature more or less ensured that no such child would be found for the simple reason that no such child ever existed.

When there was a reaction last year about the Indian sighting of a supposed Maddie, a photograph allegedly was sent, but the coloboma wasn't mentioned at all. Surely with any possible sighting all that needs to be done is to see if the right eye has this feature. Quick and easy elimination of non-Maddies.
Same with the Spanish sighting, the German one etc.
But no, not a peep out of TM. Imo it's fake.Coloboma is off the menu.
[/quote]

It really isn't logical to concede that one or two photographs are 'doctored' in some way but dismiss the possibility that others are too. Photographs (as recently seen in Saville's 'wedding' photograph) are constantly mislabelled by the press. In Maddie's case, photographs were released by the family members without providing a date or place or occasion at which they were taken. (E.g. the birthday cake photo was listed in the DM as her birthday.)

The McCanns have used this 'feature' and reported such a feature to the PJ as well. Who advised against using it in the publicity campaign because it would almost certainly mean her death sentence if she had been kidnapped.
All the same the poster was ready and used within hours of her disappearance. A complete publicity campaign was built around the coloboma. Google was approached to use one of the two O's with the coloboma.
I would call that making quite a thing of it. In the Piers Morgan interview we are told (transcript and video available) that they never made much of it and it was just a fleck you could hardly see, only if you were very close.

If one then checks the photographs and finds that the coloboma in her eye is at times a different shape and different position in the eye (which is impossible), if one considers that photoshopping has been proved to the satisfaction of experts (I'm not talking about myself but people who do this for a job) I find it a perfectly logical conclusion that it was a publicity stunt and nothing more.
Corroborative evidence imo is that it was never used to 'identify' any child said to be Maddie.

Imo it was a masterstroke in the publicity campaign. It also served the useful purpose early on in that there would be no need to travel far and wide to identify any child said to be Maddie. With the world-wide publicity this would surely have happened if there had not been such a distinguishing feature.
A child which could never be found was created by promoting an image which never existed in real life.

Re the photograph with the baby: you only have to look at the early photographs of Maddie at 6 months or so (near a tulip bed in the garden) to see that she cannot be the child Kate is holding.

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by Ribisl on 08.10.12 7:26

@tigger wrote:They never made much of it, according to Healy in April 2011. Madeleine is unique in having apparently a coloboma that moves or on occasion isn't present at all, as can be seen in film clips and photographs.

Since there was no coloboma, publishing photographs with that feature more or less ensured that no such child would be found for the simple reason that no such child ever existed.

When there was a reaction last year about the Indian sighting of a supposed Maddie, a photograph allegedly was sent, but the coloboma wasn't mentioned at all. Surely with any possible sighting all that needs to be done is to see if the right eye has this feature. Quick and easy elimination of non-Maddies.
Same with the Spanish sighting, the German one etc.
But no, not a peep out of TM. Imo it's fake.Coloboma is off the menu.

It really isn't logical to concede that one or two photographs are 'doctored' in some way but dismiss the possibility that others are too. Photographs (as recently seen in Saville's 'wedding' photograph) are constantly mislabelled by the press. In Maddie's case, photographs were released by the family members without providing a date or place or occasion at which they were taken. (E.g. the birthday cake photo was listed in the DM as her birthday.)

The McCanns have used this 'feature' and reported such a feature to the PJ as well. Who advised against using it in the publicity campaign because it would almost certainly mean her death sentence if she had been kidnapped.
All the same the poster was ready and used within hours of her disappearance. A complete publicity campaign was built around the coloboma. Google was approached to use one of the two O's with the coloboma.
I would call that making quite a thing of it. In the Piers Morgan interview we are told (transcript and video available) that they never made much of it and it was just a fleck you could hardly see, only if you were very close.

If one then checks the photographs and finds that the coloboma in her eye is at times a different shape and different position in the eye (which is impossible), if one considers that photoshopping has been proved to the satisfaction of experts (I'm not talking about myself but people who do this for a job) I find it a perfectly logical conclusion that it was a publicity stunt and nothing more.
Corroborative evidence imo is that it was never used to 'identify' any child said to be Maddie.

Imo it was a masterstroke in the publicity campaign. It also served the useful purpose early on in that there would be no need to travel far and wide to identify any child said to be Maddie. With the world-wide publicity this would surely have happened if there had not been such a distinguishing feature.
A child which could never be found was created by promoting an image which never existed in real life.

Re the photograph with the baby: you only have to look at the early photographs of Maddie at 6 months or so (near a tulip bed in the garden) to see that she cannot be the child Kate is holding.

Wrt coloboma there is an earlier thread started by Get 'em Gonçalo which contains more researched info and less random speculation.
http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t984-the-changing-coloboma-of-madeleine

I myself said this was used as a marketing ploy and I am not disagreeing with you. But I was referring to some posters mislabeling or misdating photos without thorough crosschecking and without caveat, then trying to draw unsubstantiable conclusions from inappropriate premises. Also I get the impression that some are trying to conjure up evidence to fit the theory they favour rather than building a hypothesis based on evidence, which you must surely agree is not the right way to advance research on this or any subject. Must run.

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by bobbin on 08.10.12 8:18

@jd wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@jd wrote:kate mccann looks so much that this was taken of her in 1998 or around these years, this is never her in 2005, not in a million years, child with coloboma or not. Looks more around the time of her passport photo, she looks far too young and fresh faced. I don't think this is Maddie either, looks nothing like her or any picture I have seen of her. This child also looks like a boy

I have to agree with that, It's not just that she looks younger, she doesn't have that expression on her face - discontented, the puffy eyes, the lines around her mouth etc. which were already evident in early 2007. It can't be 2005 just after delivering twins!

I'm guessing somewhere in her late twenties, posing with a baby of a friend. Quite possibly a boy. When I see that photograph it's a reminder of what could have been. No big disappointment with marriage and children written all over her face.

The child with kate mccann has grown hair as well as is at least 2 years old to have this amount of hair and be developed from a new born. Below is Maddie and kate mccann in other pictures at "alledgely" the same age and time...see any resemblance? because I don't see anything at all!!!! They are not totally different but totally different ages...and the child looks a totally different sex


It is really odd that the coloboma here is definitely at 6 o'clock compared with the norm which is at 7 o'clock. Suggesting therefore some amount of photoshopping/ manipulation, especially when the parents now say they never really made much of the coloboma.
I have always wondered whose fingers those are holding the child's hair. They seem to be much smaller than the visible right hand and the angle of arm position, to have a little hand across the top of the head, seems not to be able to be that of the child in the photo.

I know this is a deviation from the coloboma angle, but what is it with the hand. Is it possibly correct, or is it more photoshopping, since this is the only photo with a coloboma at 6 o'clock.

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by tigger on 08.10.12 9:24

@Bobbin

If you look at the link given by Ribisl above, which is Getem's topic, you will see quite a few photographs with the coloboma either not there or in the six çlock position.

I don't understand that people who object to these posts don't simply come across with evidence that the theories are wrong. Saying that such theories degrade the forum is imo not helpful. We're here to find out if what has been served up by third parties is actually true. So far the official line hasn't exactly been truthful.

As the coloboma issue is actually one of the few with tangible and recorded evidence, since it was central to the publicity campaign, I think it is important to discuss it.

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by Ribisl on 08.10.12 9:30



The picture above on the left was probably taken in the summer of 2006 when Madeleine was three, not in 2005. The occasion could have been when the twins were christened but were possibly still too young to blow out the candles themselves and Madeleine was given the task as a treat.




The last of the four photos above is labelled as 'Madeleine 11 months' on Pamalam site and I have no means of verifying this. However, if you look at them from left to right you see a clear age progression and the picture in question, entitled 'Comfort - Madeleine with Kate and Cuddle Cat', looks to me to fit in somewhere during this time span.

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by jd on 08.10.12 9:32

So how do you explain kate mccann ageing about 10/15 years within a year than Ribisl? (apologies for the 'wild' speculation and bringing this forum down but imo it is impossible to age this much in 12 months)

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by jd on 08.10.12 9:39

Apologies to anyone else who feels it is 'wild' speculation and bringing this forum down searching for the truth in a direction they do not like. Remember it was not me who released these pictures into the public domain, and if they look so wrong and inconsistent then I have a right to question them. I suggest you don;t enter the topic if this disturbs you so much. I can think of many other things with real trolls on this forum that bring it down....not analysing clear inconsistent pictures

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by Ribisl on 08.10.12 9:45

@tigger wrote:@Bobbin

If you look at the link given by Ribisl above, which is Getem's topic, you will see quite a few photographs with the coloboma either not there or in the six çlock position.

I don't understand that people who object to these posts don't simply come across with evidence that the theories are wrong. Saying that such theories degrade the forum is imo not helpful. We're here to find out if what has been served up by third parties is actually true. So far the official line hasn't exactly been truthful.

As the coloboma issue is actually one of the few with tangible and recorded evidence, since it was central to the publicity campaign, I think it is important to discuss it.

@tigger I am not disagreeing with you on the coloboma issue as I stated earlier. It seems likely that Medeleine did have a minor iris defect but the MCs saw fit to use it for their 'marketing campaign'. As Get'em suggests, this could have been one of the reasons, if not the reason, they refused to hand over her medical record to the PJ at the time.

What I was referring to was some of the misinformation posted on the forum as facts and twisting of the so-called evidence to advance one's theory instead of building a theory based on irrefutable evidence, if not, at least on sound logic. Wild speculations have a habit of distract and derail our debates.

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by sami on 08.10.12 10:00

If I was going to place the photo of Kate with baby and cuddle cat into Ribsil's slide show above based on the age of the child, it would go in fourth place, between Gerry and the last of Madeleine in pink

However, the problem with this is that Kate does appear to be much younger than the preceeding photo, photo no. 2. I agree with you JD in that regard.
Even Kate's blue velour type top with the stripe down the side of the arm is very eighties looking, it does not fit with the supposed timeframe. Obviously just an observation and not a verifiable fact.

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by jd on 08.10.12 10:06

What I was referring to was some of the misinformation posted on the forum as facts and twisting of the so-called evidence to advance one's theory instead of building a theory based on irrefutable evidence, if not, at least on sound logic

Name some misinformation that has been posted? What is being twisted? How do you know for a fact that any of these pictures are when they said they were....It is just the mccanns word for it. Why is it twisting anything if the pictures do not like right and are inconsistent? Why does kate mccann look 10/15 years younger within 12 months? Searching for the truth takes you down many paths and many theories, some are good and some are bad, this is the whole point of the forum and discussion, if you or anyone does not like something then don't read the topic and let others debate and try to discover something by themselves

Personally I would worry be far more worried & concerned that the mccanns have twisted and are giving misinformation about the coloboma...they are the ones who are truly making it fit to their theories



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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by bobbin on 08.10.12 10:35

@jd wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@jd wrote:kate mccann looks so much that this was taken of her in 1998 or around these years, this is never her in 2005, not in a million years, child with coloboma or not. Looks more around the time of her passport photo, she looks far too young and fresh faced. I don't think this is Maddie either, looks nothing like her or any picture I have seen of her. This child also looks like a boy

I have to agree with that, It's not just that she looks younger, she doesn't have that expression on her face - discontented, the puffy eyes, the lines around her mouth etc. which were already evident in early 2007. It can't be 2005 just after delivering twins!

I'm guessing somewhere in her late twenties, posing with a baby of a friend. Quite possibly a boy. When I see that photograph it's a reminder of what could have been. No big disappointment with marriage and children written all over her face.

The child with kate mccann has grown hair as well as is at least 2 years old to have this amount of hair and be developed from a new born. Below is Maddie and kate mccann in other pictures at "alledgely" the same age and time...see any resemblance? because I don't see anything at all!!!! They are not totally different but totally different ages...and the child looks a totally different sex


tigger, you usually have an idea about photoshopping/ art/ body representation.
Since there is difficulty agreeing Kate's apparent age, relative to Maddie's age, looking at the join between Kate's face and the child, is there any possibility that the people in the picture have been added together.
The join looks odd, and I definitely find it difficult to see how the left hand could get to that position and why it seems to be smaller than the right hand.
It's not as if we have not seen evidence already of photoshopping.
Is this another photo where the apparent inconsistencies might have another explanation.
Furthermore, the wider dark shadow under Kate's chin seems at odds with the narrow and crisp line under Maddie's hand and the weak shadow under her chin.
On top of which, the coloboma is at 6 o'clock, as opposed to the other 7 o'clocks and a coloboma cannot change positions....therefore reasons to start asking further questions about the authenticity of this particular composition.

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by Ribisl on 08.10.12 11:48

@jd wrote:So how do you explain kate mccann ageing about 10/15 years within a year than Ribisl? (apologies for the 'wild' speculation and bringing this forum down but imo it is impossible to age this much in 12 months)

Hi jd, I am not having a dig at you personally so please don't be offended. You are a great researcher and are helping us all by bringing to this forum a whole lot of information that we may not otherwise discover. So thank you for that.

In these photos of Kate and Madeleine, I see a very tired looking Kate in one (M's colic, remember?) and a better rested, in fact quite radiant looking Kate in the more composed picture with better lighting. I personally don't see her aging backwards between the two, but it doesn't mean to say I am right.




I believe the last photos (pool & tennis court) had been doctored because the parents had to produce them to prove Madeleine was not only alive but perfectly healthy and happy till the 3rd. I can also believe that in various pictures her relatively minor iris defect was enlarged for the marketing purposes. The worst example is probably is the poster they released immediately after her disappearance which not only shows a very prominent 'coloboma' but also her face with that brushed appearance typical of photoshopping. Apart from those I am yet to be convinced that they are not genuine. So it's over to you jd!

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Re: Did Madeleine have coloboma?

Post by tigger on 08.10.12 12:11

@tigger wrote:@Bobbin

If you look at the link given by Ribisl above, which is Getem's topic, you will see quite a few photographs with the coloboma either not there or in the six çlock position.

I don't understand that people who object to these posts don't simply come across with evidence that the theories are wrong. Saying that such theories degrade the forum is imo not helpful. We're here to find out if what has been served up by third parties is actually true. So far the official line hasn't exactly been truthful.

As the coloboma issue is actually one of the few with tangible and recorded evidence, since it was central to the publicity campaign, I think it is important to discuss it.

To add @ bobbin:
There are several reasons why I think this isn't Maddie. She doesn't have the 'swollen' eyes as seen in many photos, both eyes are the same colour, blueish - not the colours given by the parents. I'll have to look it up but they were quite specific about the eyes being different colours. Hazel and green I seem to remember.
The ear seems to be lower and not as 'angled' as other photos. Maddie had fairly large ears even when little, and they were set at a 45 degree angle from the face. These ears are flatter and lower.
Bear in mind that toddlers look amazingly alike, apart from those details. button nose, eyes large relative to the face and chubby cheeks.
The left arm and hand must be at a very awkward and positively painful angle for the child to lie like this. Their little arms aren't that long, I think the fingers are OK though, just the top half of the hand showing. I haven't time today, next week I'll hope to do something with the computer which has the photoshop on it. Like connecting it to the mains...

Kate was in Amsterdam when she became pregnant with the twins, around the end of April 2004 when Maddie would have been about 11 months old.

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