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Amaral - hero or villain?

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by aiyoyo on 07.01.10 13:25

PearlB wrote:
@Baharat wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:Oh dear, this is yet another thread that has turned into a smear campaign, this time of Amaral, and all done by the usual suspects.

Can the pros mccanns (or abduction) be objective? No? Why Not?

What motivates them? Madeleine? Can't be -- because smearing Amaral has nothing to do with Madeleine. Since their objective is not Madeleine, people are left wondering what it could be!

And that's really the million dollar question isn't it? Wink
How can posting about Amaral's past demeanours be smearing him? Is it ok to drag the McCann family through non existant mud but we musn't mention Amarals lack of - Honesty,past behaviour etc?

Yeah....quoting you..."non existent mud......" that the mccanns were so afraid of that they wanted it kept in the dark never to be lifted, and all they want lifted instead is their IMAGE! So who is really concerned over the non-existence mud? Was it people's imagination or mccanns' imagination this non-existent mud that has to be kept underground.

Excuse me but what has their image got to do with the search for Madeleine?
They wanted it so badly that they tasked an exorbitant consultant to work on it.
Is the price an indication of the difficulty of the job ie lift their image, hence the price tag?

Image Managing - what does that imply? Who wrecked that image? Everyone but themselves I suppose the usual suspect will hurl out. Right - I get it - blame everyone else, the entire Portugal judiciary system and by extension Amaral because he was vocal, then dig up his past, sling mud at him and co-relate it to Maddie? Beggars belief!

No matter the veracity of Amaral's past or people's perception, what has that got to do with mccanns responsibility to Madeleine, or for that matter what they did to her according to official investigators thesis?

Is that the best you can come up with for Madeleine?

Or is this not about Madeleine, since none of the usual suspects counter the question?

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by Slartibartfast on 07.01.10 13:38

@aiyoyo wrote:
PearlB wrote:
@Baharat wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:Oh dear, this is yet another thread that has turned into a smear campaign, this time of Amaral, and all done by the usual suspects.

Can the pros mccanns (or abduction) be objective? No? Why Not?

What motivates them? Madeleine? Can't be -- because smearing Amaral has nothing to do with Madeleine. Since their objective is not Madeleine, people are left wondering what it could be!

And that's really the million dollar question isn't it? Wink
How can posting about Amaral's past demeanours be smearing him? Is it ok to drag the McCann family through non existant mud but we musn't mention Amarals lack of - Honesty,past behaviour etc?


Image Managing - what does that imply? Who wrecked that image? Everyone but themselves I suppose the usual suspect will hurl out. Right - I get it - blame everyone else, the entire Portugal judiciary system and by extension Amaral because he was vocal, then dig up his past, sling mud at him and co-relate it to Maddie? Beggars belief!

No matter the veracity of Amaral's past or people's perception, what has that got to do with mccanns responsibility to Madeleine, or for that matter what they did to her according to official investigators thesis?

Is that the best you can come up with?

Why is Amaral subject to an injunction and an imminent libel case?
Why did Tony Bennett capitulate when challenged by CR?
The Portuguese Judiciary has already seen fit to sentence two of them in the Cipriano torture case and the same Judiciary also cleared the McCanns and Murat of any involvement in their daughter's abduction.
That is obviously not a criticism of the judiciary of Portugal. It is simply one small cadre of officers who also happened to be investigating this case.
Imho, the selection of Amaral as co-ordinator of this case was a bad move given his position as arguido even before he was appointed.
I would expect that you have more contempt for the Judiciary in Portugal since you refuse to accept that it has ruled that the officer in charge of the investigation was guilty of perjury. ie. corrupt. Unequivocally so.
How you can say that a corrupt police officer in charge of this case does not have a bearing on everything related is beyond me!!
It IS the 'Official investigator' that is corrupt. A proven liar.
But you will accept his word simply because of his position despite the Portuguese juduciary's ruling on his activities.

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by Slartibartfast on 07.01.10 13:39

And why are all posts in italics?

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by Guest on 07.01.10 13:43

@aiyoyo wrote:
PearlB wrote:
@Baharat wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:Oh dear, this is yet another thread that has turned into a smear campaign, this time of Amaral, and all done by the usual suspects.

Can the pros mccanns (or abduction) be objective? No? Why Not?

What motivates them? Madeleine? Can't be -- because smearing Amaral has nothing to do with Madeleine. Since their objective is not Madeleine, people are left wondering what it could be!

And that's really the million dollar question isn't it? Wink
How can posting about Amaral's past demeanours be smearing him? Is it ok to drag the McCann family through non existant mud but we musn't mention Amarals lack of - Honesty,past behaviour etc?

Yeah....quoting you..."non existent mud......" that the mccanns were so afraid of that they wanted it kept in the dark never to be lifted, and all they want lifted instead is their IMAGE! So who is really concerned over the non-existence mud? Was it people's imagination or mccanns' imagination this non-existent mud that has to be kept underground.

Excuse me but what has their image got to do with the search for Madeleine?
They wanted it so badly that they tasked an exorbitant consultant to work on it.
Is the price an indication of the difficulty of the job ie lift their image, hence the price tag?

Image Managing - what does that imply? Who wrecked that image? Everyone but themselves I suppose the usual suspect will hurl out. Right - I get it - blame everyone else, the entire Portugal judiciary system and by extension Amaral because he was vocal, then dig up his past, sling mud at him and co-relate it to Maddie? Beggars belief!

No matter the veracity of Amaral's past or people's perception, what has that got to do with mccanns responsibility to Madeleine, or for that matter what they did to her according to official investigators thesis?

Is that the best you can come up with for Madeleine?

Or is this not about Madeleine, since none of the usual suspects counter the question?

Oh I thought we were discussing smearing people. My point was people who have nothing to be afraid of - can't be truthfully smeared.

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by Guest on 07.01.10 13:44

@Slartibartfast wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
PearlB wrote:
@Baharat wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:Oh dear, this is yet another thread that has turned into a smear campaign, this time of Amaral, and all done by the usual suspects.

Can the pros mccanns (or abduction) be objective? No? Why Not?

What motivates them? Madeleine? Can't be -- because smearing Amaral has nothing to do with Madeleine. Since their objective is not Madeleine, people are left wondering what it could be!

And that's really the million dollar question isn't it? Wink
How can posting about Amaral's past demeanours be smearing him? Is it ok to drag the McCann family through non existant mud but we musn't mention Amarals lack of - Honesty,past behaviour etc?


Image Managing - what does that imply? Who wrecked that image? Everyone but themselves I suppose the usual suspect will hurl out. Right - I get it - blame everyone else, the entire Portugal judiciary system and by extension Amaral because he was vocal, then dig up his past, sling mud at him and co-relate it to Maddie? Beggars belief!

No matter the veracity of Amaral's past or people's perception, what has that got to do with mccanns responsibility to Madeleine, or for that matter what they did to her according to official investigators thesis?

Is that the best you can come up with?

Why is Amaral subject to an injunction and an imminent libel case?
Why did Tony Bennett capitulate when challenged by CR?
The Portuguese Judiciary has already seen fit to sentence two of them in the Cipriano torture case and the same Judiciary also cleared the McCanns and Murat of any involvement in their daughter's abduction.
That is obviously not a criticism of the judiciary of Portugal. It is simply one small cadre of officers who also happened to be investigating this case.
Imho, the selection of Amaral as co-ordinator of this case was a bad move given his position as arguido even before he was appointed.
I would expect that you have more contempt for the Judiciary in Portugal since you refuse to accept that it has ruled that the officer in charge of the investigation was guilty of perjury. ie. corrupt. Unequivocally so.
How you can say that a corrupt police officer in charge of this case does not have a bearing on everything related is beyond me!!
It IS the 'Official investigator' that is corrupt. A proven liar.
But you will accept his word simply because of his position despite the Portuguese juduciary's ruling on his activities.
Slarti you might as well just post. lalala

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by aiyoyo on 07.01.10 13:51

PearlB wrote:"who fleece the public's (pensioners and children) money "

Reminds me - no one seems to have the answer to - How much has the save Amaral fund raised- odd that.

Who started the Madeleine Fund? Mccanns!

Who started the Amaral Fund? Not Amaral!

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by Guest on 07.01.10 13:53

@aiyoyo wrote:
PearlB wrote:"who fleece the public's (pensioners and children) money "

Reminds me - no one seems to have the answer to - How much has the save Amaral fund raised- odd that.

Who started the Madeleine Fund? Mccanns!

Who started the Amaral Fund? Not Amaral!
No his friends Ms.Morais and co. did - (although I'm sure it would have been run past Amaral). I just think that its odd that no one seems to have a figure on it.

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by Ruby on 07.01.10 14:15

Slartibartfast: 'and the same Judiciary also cleared the McCanns and Murat of any involvement in their daughter's abduction.'

Please show your workings, or take 500 lines 'I will not keep repeating the same old untruths ad nauseum'.

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by vaguely on 07.01.10 14:17

The McCanns and Murat haven't been cleared of any involvement.

Nobody has been cleared of involvement.

The case hasn't been to court.

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by Perelli on 07.01.10 14:20

@vaguely wrote:The McCanns and Murat haven't been cleared of any involvement.

Nobody has been cleared of involvement.

The case hasn't been to court.

True, nobody has been charged or cleared (apart from Amaral, of course, who was charged and not cleared).

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by Guest on 07.01.10 14:20

Correct - thats because there was NO EVIDENCE.

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by aliberte2 on 07.01.10 14:33

Yawn. All bashing And No Known Facts, Contrary to Popular Belief -- A Try to Make It Out To Be the Tapas and McCanns Were wasted When It's Quite Clear that the Waiter Stated There Was No Buying of 12 bottles ANd the Like, Blah Blah, Still No Answer As to How Madeleine Died and Her Body was Disposed Of With No Trace.

But Continued Show of the McCanns' Child Care Arrangements as If THis is Proof of Manslaughter.

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by aliberte2 on 07.01.10 14:34

@aiyoyo wrote:

No matter the veracity of Amaral's past or people's perception, what has that got to do with mccanns responsibility to Madeleine, or for that matter what they did to her according to official investigators thesis?

Is that the best you can come up with for Madeleine?

Or is this not about Madeleine, since none of the usual suspects counter the question?

Failure to Be There With Madeleine that Night is Proof of What.... Manslaughter? Do You Have Anything Else? A Theory As to How they Dumped the Body Under Amaral's Nose, Perhaps?

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by Guest on 07.01.10 14:40

erm No -the short answer.

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by aiyoyo on 07.01.10 15:49

@Slartibartfast wrote:
Why is Amaral subject to an injunction and an imminent libel case?


Because the mccanns put him through that, because they want the process files kept in the dark and that damn Amaral has the audacity to take it out of the dark.



Why did Tony Bennett capitulate when challenged by CR?


Again because the mccanns were afraid of the 'non-existent mud' (as one poster put it) and sent the fierce dog, CR, (excuse the pun) after him, and AFAIU TB didnt want to leave his spouse 'homeless' - fair enough NON?.



The Portuguese Judiciary has already seen fit to sentence two of them in the Cipriano torture case and the same Judiciary also cleared the McCanns and Murat of any involvement in their daughter's abduction.


The former has nothing to do with Madeleine and should not be co-related to it, while the latter case is not closed - it's pending more or new evidence.



That is obviously not a criticism of the judiciary of Portugal. It is simply one small cadre of officers who also happened to be investigating this case.


The small cadre happened to form an important part of the entity of the Police judicial as an entirety who were official investigators (some in the first crucial months) of the mccanns investigation. That fact cannot be altered whether people like the outcome or not and that was good to stand in the released process files.



Imho, the selection of Amaral as co-ordinator of this case was a bad move given his position as arguido even before he was appointed.


You did say it was YOUR opinion yeah? So no comment on it per se.
It was a pity the Public Ministry didnt seek your opinion before seeing fit to put Amaral in charge yeah? Incidentally, other opinions (including Public Ministry for example) existed as well in case your are interested.




I would expect that you have more contempt for the Judiciary in Portugal since you refuse to accept that it has ruled that the officer in charge of the investigation was guilty of perjury. ie. corrupt. Unequivocally so.


Excuse me, did the Judiciary rule the officers in charge of madeleine investigation guilty of anything pertaining to the case? Not as far as I know! What has the other case got to do with Madeleine? The facts of the other case are not co-related to Madeleine case are they?



How you can say that a corrupt police officer in charge of this case does not have a bearing on everything related is beyond me!!
It IS the 'Official investigator' that is corrupt. A proven liar.
But you will accept his word simply because of his position despite the Portuguese juduciary's ruling on his activities.

In case you are interested I didnt read Amaral Book, neither do I consider him hero or villian. He was simply an investigator with 30 years exemplary record for combating narcotics and crimes. In the Cipriano case which I must admit I am not well up on, the girl was cruelly treated and died a horrific death at the hands of her carers. Again, I'm not well up on Amaral supposed misdemeanor in the handling of it, but that poor girl deserved justice which apparently Amaral went way out and fought for it for her!


As for Maddie's case, while I am aware of the ruling, equally I am aware of the other stuff in the files, so the ruling means still no justice for Madeleine which is what people are here for - Voice for Madeleine (well, at least some are)!
The case is shelved not closed, and shelving obliged the judicary to release arguidoes and release the part of the process that will not compromise future trial. AFAIAC, the released bits point one direction and it ain't direction abduction!

Incidentally all investigating officers' works and reports are recorded facts of the process files. Resignation of any of the officers subsequently is a different matter, and should not alter earlier gathered and recorded facts. Further evidence added and recorded form an expanded part of the facts of the process and together they form the collective files - simple as that - nothing more and nothing less.


In a nutshell, facts of the investigation process remain per se irrespective of change of personnel. In that sense, the pertinent point is not about the belief of Amaral or not, rather it's about acceptance of the existence of facts in the process files, which were the works of the Portugal Judiciary and should be taken as a whole, and not pre and post who and who, whether people like it or not.

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by aiyoyo on 07.01.10 15:51

Deleted - double post.

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by aiyoyo on 07.01.10 15:55

PearlB wrote: My point was people who have nothing to be afraid of - can't be truthfully smeared.

True!

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by aiyoyo on 07.01.10 15:57

PearlB wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
PearlB wrote:"who fleece the public's (pensioners and children) money "

Reminds me - no one seems to have the answer to - How much has the save Amaral fund raised- odd that.

Who started the Madeleine Fund? Mccanns!

Who started the Amaral Fund? Not Amaral!
No his friends Ms.Morais and co. did - (although I'm sure it would have been run past Amaral). I just think that its odd that no one seems to have a figure on it.

Quoting you......."(.....you're sure.......}" - where's the evidence?

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by Guest on 07.01.10 16:01

Justice for Madeleine and the who, why and where are exactly the reason most of us are here. Unfortunately we also have the responsibility to not let people pass on rumours, innuendoes, false leaks and Newspaper reportage.
Amaral himself has stated that he was close to finding Madeleine. Now how can he possibly say that? He has access to the information available but still never came up with the answer.
Personally I hope the case is reopened and also that the original investigation is gone over with a fine tooth comb preferably by forces outside Portugal.

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by DCB1 on 07.01.10 16:01

I wish i could tell who is saying what!

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by DCB1 on 07.01.10 16:02

And I wish I wasn't being bold.

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by Guest on 07.01.10 16:03

@DCB1 wrote:I wish i could tell who is saying what!
I think it was mean't to be the answer to....How much in Amaral's Fund?

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by Perelli on 07.01.10 16:03

@DCB1 wrote:I wish i could tell who is saying what!

I blame the citation multiple button - also, why is everything in bold all of a sudden?

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by aiyoyo on 07.01.10 16:10

Sorry - bear with me. I will edit my above post again. My answer should be in bold to differentiate from poster I respond to, but for some reasons it was messed up.

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Re: Amaral - hero or villain?

Post by vaguely on 07.01.10 16:14

Seems that whenever anyone puts anything in italics or bold then the whole thread runs that way.

grrrr

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