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A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

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A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by Florence on 29.05.11 11:35

While initially believing the McCanns, I became increasingly sceptical after reading widely. However, I thought it would be a useful exercise to look at key points again and to see if there are possible simple explanations.

Why didn’t the McCanns and friends hire Babysitters from Mark Warner Company?

Because they were mean.

The charge then was approx £9-10 ph. For three hours that would be £30 per night and if you hired for 6 night (they took the children with them the first night when they ate elsewhere) that would be £180. And the same cost for the other 3 couples. Now as the tapas bar was near to the apartments they felt it was worth the saving of the money to check themselves from time to time.

Kate has said of the babysitting service that the money ‘wasn’t the issue’ and how safe they felt in the resort but she would have to say that. She could hardly say, I prefer to spend £30 on drink rather than on a babysitter for my three small children.

You can’t assume that because people are well paid professionals they will use that money in any particular way. Having worked most of my life in the finance area, I have to say that sometimes it is the wealthiest people who are mean, and the poorest who are most generous.

Discrepancies in timeline for the evening

The McCanns and friends had no reason to notice the exact times the checks occurred - and were drinking. The McCanns say they had some wine before they went for dinner. Not a crime! And maybe the others had pre dinner drinks too. Most people drink more on holiday than they would at home. It is understandable that the specifics of an evening with lots of alcohol might be hard to ascertain. How does alcohol affect memory – I don’t know but I presume it does. Also in the circumstances, the amount of the checking is going to be exaggerated to make the party feel less guilty – when does exaggeration become a lie?

I believe the restaurant staff noticed some movements from the table but as the restaurant was busy (you had to book to be sure of a table) I don’t see that staff recollections are necessarily 100% accurate.

Could an abductor have entered in the time available?
I suspect the window of opportunity was slightly longer than appears from the inconsistent statements of the Tapas group. The apartment could have been watched and the unlocked patio doors noted. I suspect the children were given calpol or the equivalent to ensure heavy sleep. Investment in calpol was less than the cost of babysitting!

So an abductor could have got in via the unlocked patio doors (wearing gloves so no finger prints on the door), removed the heavily sleeping Madeleine, closed the patio door and vanished. This could be the man seen by Jane Tanner.

Lack of forensics for an abduction
The tapas group apparently ran riot over the apartment looking for Madeleine which would have affected any evidence, and the abductor wearing gloves would have meant no evidence on the patio door. It is not necessarily sinister that the tapas group behaved this way. They had consumed a lot of alcohol, a child was missing thanks to their careless behaviour and this had implications for them.

Not searching/leaving the twins alone
You can’t apply logic to really stressful situations - we all react differently. Yes it is not logical to leave the twins alone while running to the tapas bar to raise the alarm but I can understand why she would do it. Gerry did search a bit that night while she stayed with the twins.

Kate and Gerry’s subsequent unemotional behaviour and body language
This was unfair criticism in my view. We are all different and deal with traumas in the way appropriate to us. Personally I am under huge pressure due to the serious illness of my partner but to the world I am normal because I have to hold it together for myself and for my children. I don’t do tears etc in public. A casual observer knowing about my husband’s illness might think me a hard bitch - as I am doing more or less all the things I would have done anyway.

The dogs
I agree their findings are very worrying. Maybe they were 'led' to do this as police were desperate to get a result.


Kate not answering the 48 questions
She was advised not to by her lawyer. She was aware the Portuguese needed a result that would not affect the tourist industry and was afraid of being stitched up.

Odd behaviour by Kate
Washing cuddle cat/curtains/leaving hired car open for nights on end. Perhaps Kate has issues about cleanliness - some people are obsessive about smells, cleanliness.

Though I find my own argument contradicted by her saying the smell of death found by the dogs on an item(s) of her clothing was because she had attended 6 dead people in the week before the holiday - an obsessive would not have taken such clothes on holiday!

Another contradiction is her statement to explain how she could not produce an example of madeleine’s DNA in the apartment because the obvious sources of this (toothbrush and hairbrush) were shared between the children. This sharing could relate to her meanness?


Overall
This mean couple’s wine filled evening went horribly wrong. They have spent the time since on damage limitation which has involved legal action. They have employed incompetent detectives. They are not very likeable. Some of the funds raised appear to have been used for their benefit. i read that only about 13% had been spent on actually searching for Madeleine.

But all this does not make them murderers.

Can those who believe the McCanns improve my case which I have to say I find hard to believe myself!

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by Honeycomb on 29.05.11 11:50

Perhaps Kate has issues about cleanliness - some people are obsessive about smells, cleanliness.

So obsessive about smells and cleanliness that she says she took her daughter's Cuddlecat to work to contaminate it with dead bodies and then give it back to her daughter. What mother would do that?????

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by Guest on 29.05.11 12:13

[quote Florence]

The dogs
I agree their findings are very worrying. Maybe they were 'led' to do this as police were desperate to get a result.



That imo is an awful thing to say. Firstly the British Police were involved, and secondly, why on earth, would the police of two countries want to incriminate innocent parents, who they know would already be suffering if their child had been abducted. It is absolutely propesterous to suggest this.

So an abductor could have got in via the unlocked patio doors (wearing gloves so no finger prints on the door), removed the heavily sleeping Madeleine, closed the patio door and vanished. This could be the man seen by Jane Tanner.

So if he was seen by Jane Tanner, at 9.15, and Gerry McCann was standing outside the patio doors, having been in the apartment for around 10 mins, then the abductor must have already been in there? GM said he went to the loo in this time, so he was walking around the apartment, where was he hiding?


Lack of forensics for an abduction
The tapas group apparently ran riot over the apartment looking for Madeleine which would have affected any evidence, and the abductor wearing gloves would have meant no evidence on the patio door. It is not necessarily sinister that the tapas group behaved this way. They had consumed a lot of alcohol, a child was missing thanks to their careless behaviour and this had implications for them.


Not only did they run riot in there, they messed around with the most important piece of evidence, the open shutter.

Kate not answering the 48 questions

She was advised not to by her lawyer. She was aware the Portuguese needed a result that would not affect the tourist industry and was afraid of being stitched up.


So the PJ wanted to stitch a mother of 3 children up, because it might affect the tourist industry. Good Grief. If they wanted to stitch someone up there were a whole load of people they could have done it to not the mother of the child. The PJ have families to, do you really think that's what they would do.


Another contradiction is her statement to explain how she could not produce an example of madeleine’s DNA in the apartment because the obvious sources of this (toothbrush and hairbrush) were shared between the children. This sharing could relate to her meanness?


You talked about her obsession for cleanliness earlier - so she would not let two people share, and why, how much does a toothbrush cost, and how large is it to pack?

I understand with the arguments you have put forward that you are finding it hard to believe.

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by PeterMac on 29.05.11 12:19

Very quickly, because I am going out for lunch
Florence wrote:While initially believing the McCanns, I became increasingly sceptical after reading widely. However, I thought it would be a useful exercise to look at key points again and to see if there are possible simple explanations.
Discrepancies in timeline for the evening
The McCanns and friends had no reason to notice the exact times the checks occurred - and were drinking.
p.70 'That is why Gerry and I were subsequently able to be so accurate about timings"

Could an abductor have entered in the time available?
So an abductor could have got in via the unlocked patio doors (wearing gloves so no finger prints on the door), removed the heavily sleeping Madeleine, closed the patio door and vanished. This could be the man seen by Jane Tanner.
Tanner was further along the road and past the side entrance = patio door entrance when she allegedly saw the alleged man.

Lack of forensics for an abduction
The tapas group apparently ran riot over the apartment looking for Madeleine which would have affected any evidence,
Behaviour like that smudges evidence, and puts other forensic marks in place, but it does not REMOVE what is there.

Not searching/leaving the twins alone
Gerry did search a bit that night while she stayed with the twins.
P. 83 "as soon as it was light Gerry and I resumed out search.". But later in an interview with them both, Katey denies they ever searched, and Gerry does not correct her, or clarify that they did some important searching. Which leaves us wondering whether they did nor not.

Kate and Gerry’s subsequent unemotional behaviour and body language
This was unfair criticism in my view. We are all different and deal with traumas in the way appropriate to us.
But look at the picture of them emerging from the church on day 8, and tell us if you think that is entirely normal hebaviour for a couple who insist their daughter is in the hands of pae****
The dogs
I agree their findings are very worrying. Maybe they were 'led' to do this as police were desperate to get a result.
You can't.
....
Overall
This mean couple’s wine filled evening went horribly wrong. They have spent the time since on damage limitation which has involved legal action. They have employed incompetent detectives. They are not very likeable. Some of the funds raised appear to have been used for their benefit. i read that only about 13% had been spent on actually searching for Madeleine.

But all this does not make them murderers.
I do not think anyone has ever suggested that they were.

Can those who believe the McCanns improve my case which I have to say I find hard to believe myself!




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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by mama on 29.05.11 12:50

On the question of checking and timelines, it brings to mind musical chairs - did anyone actually sit down long enough to eat with out indigestion. Surely everyone else in the Tapas would have been annoyed at the up and down two and fro?

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The other side

Post by Marian on 29.05.11 13:13

Welcome Florence. I think that you will soon find that all the points you have raised will be answered satisfactorily.

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by lj on 29.05.11 14:25

That Kate & Gerry left the early morning of the 4th was confirmed by the tapas friends. Since they admitted to not searching you wonder what they did on that walk.

About the mental state afterwards: indeed people react differently, but the microexpressions don't lie, neither do the eyes. That's why even the untrained aye could see that queen Elizabeth was sad during her "annus horribilis" and she is the queen of self control. Grief, sadness cannot be wiped of the face. There are too many photos (church, don't forget the enauseating t-shirt one), videos showing "happy talk": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEAySu-hTJo&feature=related
Kate btw has a very denigrating way to talk about moments that would almost impossible for a normal mother to relive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rQazjM-bCo

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=123&u=15393141

About the 48 questions: BS, see many other posts on here.

For the rest: I concur with candyfloss and PeterMac.


ps I have some trouble posting the photo, so just the link.

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No reply from Garth and Co

Post by pauline on 29.05.11 15:04

I think it is interesting that Garth or whoever have not responded but maybe he is taking a day off.

An admitted sceptic has tried to put together a case for the abduction scenario. She says a bunch of mean professionals preferred to spend their money on booze rather than babysitting, and as a consequence their testimony was contradictory and that damage limitation to their reputations was the name of the game after Madeleine went missing.

She could also have mentioned the theory in the book VANISHED BY Danny Collins that Madeleine woke up, left by the unlocked patio door and went looking for he parents only to be taken by a dodgy character who was in the right place at the wrong time for Madeleine. If at nearly 4 years old Madeleine was capable of opening the unlocked patio doors this is a possibility.
...

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by Wickedkitten on 30.05.11 16:43

Why didn’t the McCanns and friends hire Babysitters from Mark Warner Company?

Because they were mean.

The charge then was approx £9-10 ph. For three hours that would be £30 per night and if you hired for 6 night (they took the children with them the first night when they ate elsewhere) that would be £180. And the same cost for the other 3 couples. Now as the tapas bar was near to the apartments they felt it was worth the saving of the money to check themselves from time to time.

Kate has said of the babysitting service that the money ‘wasn’t the issue’ and how safe they felt in the resort but she would have to say that. She could hardly say, I prefer to spend £30 on drink rather than on a babysitter for my three small children.

You can’t assume that because people are well paid professionals they will use that money in any particular way. Having worked most of my life in the finance area, I have to say that sometimes it is the wealthiest people who are mean, and the poorest who are most generous.

Personally I don't agree. They were already spending nearly 5k for the holiday flat, and then almost another 1k in crèche fees for the three children. Babysitting fees are peanuts in comparison.

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by Me on 30.05.11 16:53

@Wickedkitten wrote:Personally I don't agree. They were already spending nearly 5k for the holiday flat, and then almost another 1k in crèche fees for the three children. Babysitting fees are peanuts in comparison.

£5000k for that apartment? Judging by the videos from inside it, then it's no wonder Gerry was in a foul mood!

It looked a real dump to me and if they've paid £5000 for that then they've been right royally ripped off.

Seems the disappearance of Maddie wasn't the only crime commited that week.

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by guestio on 30.05.11 17:12

Some people really don't know the McCann.

They went in May (middle season) to a cheap resort. The cost was around 1.5k, travel, meals and activities (adults and children) included. They even discussed the price because there was no "listening" service fo the kids at night....

The McCann were under middle class - remember that the older Mrs. Healy said in an interview that Kate kept  her part time job because only with Gerald's salary it would be difficult to make the ends meet.

If you look at the first pictures of them, it's obvious by their clothes that they didn't have money, and they only became more comfortable after the Fund was set. That is obvious.

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by guestio on 30.05.11 17:17

P.S.

1.5k Euros = 1.2K Pounds

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by jane on 30.05.11 17:17

You sound as though you do know the McCanns, would you like to tell us more?

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by guestio on 30.05.11 17:21

I'm sorry if I sound as if I know the McCann. Fortunately I don't have the displeasure.

But Jane, I know the resort and many people that work(ed) there. I hope this answers your question.

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by jane on 30.05.11 17:32

It's difficult to know what to say to the people of Praia da Luz, but I'm sure you must know that there are many people who support you and would like to see this case resolved. Do you think the case will be reopened and resolved?

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by Wickedkitten on 30.05.11 17:51

@Me wrote:
@Wickedkitten wrote:Personally I don't agree. They were already spending nearly 5k for the holiday flat, and then almost another 1k in crèche fees for the three children. Babysitting fees are peanuts in comparison.

£5000k for that apartment? Judging by the videos from inside it, then it's no wonder Gerry was in a foul mood!

It looked a real dump to me and if they've paid £5000 for that then they've been right royally ripped off.

Seems the disappearance of Maddie wasn't the only crime commited that week.

My bad, it was the entire holiday that cost them that much, the actual flat was 1500 for the week

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by guestio on 30.05.11 17:54

No Jane, I don't believe this case will ever be resolved.

There's an obvious desire that it stays as it is.

Apart from the parents or Mr. Murat, if they could produce any new fact relevant for the case, only the PT Public Ministry can reopen it, once again if there is relevant indications for doing so.

We have waited for more than 2 years for the parents to do it, as the primary part interested, and they didn't, on the contrary they eluded their "power" by putting up a request for a "review" - which we know will get nowhere; the bloody process has had lots of reviews to lead to the stupid final report by the General Attorney.

In my opinion, the PR operation that Mr. Cameron demanded is just an attempt to look good in the eyes of the eloctorate, and has as a goal to clean McCanns image in Britain. The McCann will never ask for a re-openning of the case, they don't want the truth to be known, The actual Portuguese Public Ministry will also not reopen it because they fear that the corruption, their lack of independence from the political pressure becomes known - we would have to have a very radical new government in Portugal for any new General prosecutor to accept putting into question the evil actions of their predecessors.

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by ufercoffy on 30.05.11 18:04

guestio

That's really depressing.

So a child goes missing, presumed dead, and her parents are allowed to become famous, wealthy celebrities with the blessing of our government and media.

This country sucks. Not only will Madeleine not get the justice she deserves but we also have people like Sharon Shoesmith who gets paid millions of pounds because as a social worker whose job it was to look out for and save children, she says Baby P couldn't be saved despite being known the social services for months.

It seems to me that abused babies and children are far less important than the reputations of their abusers.

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by ufercoffy on 30.05.11 18:09

What amazes me is that comments about Madeleine are allowed to stay on newspaper sites these days so it's apparent that many, many people know exactly what's going on with the protection of the McCann's and yet the government and media carry on protecting them right in front of our eyes! They know we know what's going on yet still they do it.

aaagh

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answer to Uffercoffy

Post by guestio on 30.05.11 18:10

Please, please, uffercoffy

don't feel so depressed, there will be elections for a new government in the next June 5th.

Hey, don't take so much coffee  , try some white tea, it's more 

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by Vanya on 30.05.11 18:16

We've had a change of government here but still we fear a whitewash.

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by guestio on 30.05.11 18:21

Vanya that's what I fear also.
Nowadays changes in governments mean nothing. The name of the winning party may be another (usually one of the 2) but the "masters" are the same. The power is not in the Governments but on those that command them.

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by dontknow on 30.05.11 18:31

Who commands David Cameron? don't mean to sound facetious, I gtenuinely don't know

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by The Shelfstacker on 30.05.11 22:56

This country is "run" not by the PM and Cabinet but by a triumvirate of (i) Senior Civil Servants, by that I mean at Permanent Secretary level (ii) High Court Judges and (iii) the Home Secret Service, MI5. 'Twas ever thus and is no different from any other major country or power.

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Re: A McCann sceptic tries to see the other side

Post by Dontknow on 30.05.11 23:01

@The Shelfstacker wrote:This country is "run" not by the PM and Cabinet but by a triumvirate of (i) Senior Civil Servants, by that I mean at Permanent Secretary level (ii) High Court Judges and (iii) the Home Secret Service, MI5. 'Twas ever thus and is no different from any other major country or power.

Oh well, that's that then....last one to go offline please switch the lights off.

Thank you for your reply Shelfstacker.

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