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16 Questions to Tony Bennett from 'What the Papers Never Say' - ANSWERED

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Re: 16 Questions to Tony Bennett from 'What the Papers Never Say' - ANSWERED

Post by Finally on 31.12.09 8:41

Hi Slartibartfast
Quite simply because too many people have been wrongly hanged or put in prison when they should not have been and if in the McCann's shoes I would wish for more evidence to be shown that I had done wrong than a dog wagging its tail and barking. I would hazard a guess that the Criminal Prosecution Service would not take a case to court based solely upon the dogs reacting for any potential crime.

I think the way that all trained dogs used to help us human folk is marvellous but without the extra proof it does seem a bridge too far to be so sure that somebody harmed their child.

I answer as somebody with my legs straddling the fence and one foot on the maybe they did harm her side. I am truly glad it is not a high fence or I might have done myself some harm by now. Wink

Take care

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Re: 16 Questions to Tony Bennett from 'What the Papers Never Say' - ANSWERED

Post by marigold on 01.01.10 1:06

@Slartibartfast wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
candyfloss wrote:If the dogs are so unreliable, then why on earth do Police forces across the world use them?
PREDICTION: You won't get one single coherent answer from the 4 dozen or so McCann-believers on this forum to what is undoubtedly a pivotal question in this whole mystery. It's the one question they always avoid, fudge, or divert away from answering.

The dogs are used everywhere. But any anti McCann folk decide to take a somewhat selective view on their operation.
First of all, Eddie is a victim recovery dog, (Grime tacked on the 'enhanced' part to make it sound like Eddie has super powers. EVRD is only used in reference to Eddie. It is not a recognised term.)
Victim recovery dogs are used mainly in recovering bodies. The most famous example was their use in recovering body parts in the debris of the world trade centre.
Their use in crime scenes in the absence of actual bodies or body parts needs corroboration as both dogs will alert to blood.
The forensics did not corroborate the dogs' alerts so there alerts are meaningless.
This is according to the DOG HANDLER HIMSELF.
Eddie has been used in crime scenes where his blood detection skills have been highlighted.
Remember, both dogs cannot draw a distinction between dried blood from a live or dead person. It's all the same to them.
What I would like any anti to answer is why they think that the results do not need to be corroborated even if the dog handler himself says that the alerts are unreliable without corroboration.
And if any anti has the answer to that question I suggest telling Goncalo Amaral because he needs all the help he can get on this matter.

So you think it is merely a huge coincidence that the dogs alerted only in places and items Mccann and nowhere else? An apartment from where a child 'disappeared', no less. Dogs that have a highly successful record of positive alerts, I have read 100%? And BOTH dogs alerted. Do you not find their reaction to the dogs' alerts worrying? In that instead of an emotional, distressed response as would be expected, they made a myriad of bizarre excuses?

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Re: 16 Questions to Tony Bennett from 'What the Papers Never Say' - ANSWERED

Post by Guest on 01.01.10 2:13

@Finally wrote:Hi Slartibartfast
Quite simply because too many people have been wrongly hanged or put in prison when they should not have been and if in the McCann's shoes I would wish for more evidence to be shown that I had done wrong than a dog wagging its tail and barking. I would hazard a guess that the Criminal Prosecution Service would not take a case to court based solely upon the dogs reacting for any potential crime.

I think the way that all trained dogs used to help us human folk is marvellous but without the extra proof it does seem a bridge too far to be so sure that somebody harmed their child.

I answer as somebody with my legs straddling the fence and one foot on the maybe they did harm her side. I am truly glad it is not a high fence or I might have done myself some harm by now. Wink

Take care

Nice post Finally.

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Re: 16 Questions to Tony Bennett from 'What the Papers Never Say' - ANSWERED

Post by Ruby on 01.01.10 3:20

Prefer Marigold's, but I can see why you don't never mind

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Re: 16 Questions to Tony Bennett from 'What the Papers Never Say' - ANSWERED

Post by marigold on 01.01.10 4:12

Thank you Ruby flower thumbsup

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Re: 16 Questions to Tony Bennett from 'What the Papers Never Say' - ANSWERED

Post by Slartibartfast on 01.01.10 16:41

@marigold wrote:
@Slartibartfast wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
candyfloss wrote:If the dogs are so unreliable, then why on earth do Police forces across the world use them?
PREDICTION: You won't get one single coherent answer from the 4 dozen or so McCann-believers on this forum to what is undoubtedly a pivotal question in this whole mystery. It's the one question they always avoid, fudge, or divert away from answering.

The dogs are used everywhere. But any anti McCann folk decide to take a somewhat selective view on their operation.
First of all, Eddie is a victim recovery dog, (Grime tacked on the 'enhanced' part to make it sound like Eddie has super powers. EVRD is only used in reference to Eddie. It is not a recognised term.)
Victim recovery dogs are used mainly in recovering bodies. The most famous example was their use in recovering body parts in the debris of the world trade centre.
Their use in crime scenes in the absence of actual bodies or body parts needs corroboration as both dogs will alert to blood.
The forensics did not corroborate the dogs' alerts so there alerts are meaningless.
This is according to the DOG HANDLER HIMSELF.
Eddie has been used in crime scenes where his blood detection skills have been highlighted.
Remember, both dogs cannot draw a distinction between dried blood from a live or dead person. It's all the same to them.
What I would like any anti to answer is why they think that the results do not need to be corroborated even if the dog handler himself says that the alerts are unreliable without corroboration.
And if any anti has the answer to that question I suggest telling Goncalo Amaral because he needs all the help he can get on this matter.

So you think it is merely a huge coincidence that the dogs alerted only in places and items Mccann and nowhere else? An apartment from where a child 'disappeared', no less. Dogs that have a highly successful record of positive alerts, I have read 100%? And BOTH dogs alerted. Do you not find their reaction to the dogs' alerts worrying? In that instead of an emotional, distressed response as would be expected, they made a myriad of bizarre excuses?

First of all, you have read 100% not alerting to foodstuffs. There is no other record of their success rate. Not to mention, any independent record.
In fact, there are two questionable alerts by the dogs in this case.
Both dogs could have been alerting to the same thing. They are both trained to detect blood that can come from a living person as long as it has dried.
The dogs are used as part of the collection of forensics. They are not an end unto themselves.
When the dog alerts the forensic collection team gather evidence from that alert point.
The lab analysis is the result not the barking dog. In this case the lab analysis yielded nothing conclusive to suggest anyone was dead.
That's how it works. There is nobody saying, not even the dog handler, that the dogs alerts should be interpreted without the forensics to back it up.
With regard to the McCanns, you expect other people to behave in a certain way but you have never even met them or know exactly what they said.
I can guarantee you that if the McCanns came up with any explanation for the dog alerts it would be seen as incriminating because people have already decided on their guilt
You did not witness their behaviour first hand. You saw it through newspaper articles and other people's opinions of them.

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Re: 16 Questions to Tony Bennett from 'What the Papers Never Say' - ANSWERED

Post by aliberte2 on 01.01.10 17:48

@Ruby wrote:Prefer Marigold's, but I can see why you don't never mind

Because They Have a Different Opinion Than you?

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Re: 16 Questions to Tony Bennett from 'What the Papers Never Say' - ANSWERED

Post by aliberte2 on 01.01.10 17:51

@marigold wrote:

So you think it is merely a huge coincidence that the dogs alerted only in places and items Mccann and nowhere else? An apartment from where a child 'disappeared', no less. Dogs that have a highly successful record of positive alerts, I have read 100%? And BOTH dogs alerted. Do you not find their reaction to the dogs' alerts worrying? In that instead of an emotional, distressed response as would be expected, they made a myriad of bizarre excuses?

That's Not the Point. At all. Either Rely on the so-called Alerts or Rely on the McCanns' Supposedly Guilty Reaction (Guilty According to Who?). But You Can't Smush them together and make a Case. It's Bad Policework and that's why Amaral failed.

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Re: 16 Questions to Tony Bennett from 'What the Papers Never Say' - ANSWERED

Post by Guest on 01.01.10 21:52

The reason every ANTI makes a big song and dance of the dogs is because they know every other single bit of evidence shows the McCanns were not involved, so they cling onto the 100% success rate <> of the dogs.
Fact is this 100% quote was from the handler himself and not been verified at all. Grimes says he has been on 200 cases yet try finding them, you can't, only about 20. So has someone extended the truth to get jobs, which most people do everyday?
And bear this in mind the dogs and the handlers business venture is not that old.

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Re: 16 Questions to Tony Bennett from 'What the Papers Never Say' - ANSWERED

Post by Ruby on 02.01.10 3:40

@aliberte2 wrote:
@Ruby wrote:Prefer Marigold's, but I can see why you don't never mind

Because They Have a Different Opinion Than you?

No I Just Stopped Believing In Fairy Stories A Long Time Ago ffs how can you keep that caps thing up :megashock:

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Re: 16 Questions to Tony Bennett from 'What the Papers Never Say' - ANSWERED

Post by Finally on 02.01.10 9:02

Hi Ruby.
How many criminal cases do not ever reach court because the CPS doesn't feel there is enough evidence to have a reasonable chance of winning it. Those twelve good men and women need to feel that a criminal case that has reached court has been proven beyond reasonable doubt for them to make their decision of "guilty". Seriously, a wagging tailed dog is not going to be enough is it? There would need to be other evidence to support the dogs for any jury to state "guilty" with hand on heart, and currently there isn't anything is there?

I see no "once upon a time" and "living happily ever after" here for Madeleine McCann so a little less of the sarcasm if you wouldn't mind, please.

Take care

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Re: 16 Questions to Tony Bennett from 'What the Papers Never Say' - ANSWERED

Post by sans_souci on 02.01.10 9:54

@rockyrobin wrote:The reason every ANTI makes a big song and dance of the dogs is because they know every other single bit of evidence shows the McCanns were not involved, so they cling onto the 100% success rate <> of the dogs.
Fact is this 100% quote was from the handler himself and not been verified at all. Grimes says he has been on 200 cases yet try finding them, you can't, only about 20. So has someone extended the truth to get jobs, which most people do everyday?
And bear this in mind the dogs and the handlers business venture is not that old.

I believe he left the police to start in business on his own account in July 2007.

With regard to the 200 cases - Grime states that in 200 cases the dogs have never alerted to meat based foodstuffs or roadkill. This is not the same as a 100% detection record.

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Re: 16 Questions to Tony Bennett from 'What the Papers Never Say' - ANSWERED

Post by Guest on 02.01.10 10:44

@sans_souci wrote:
@rockyrobin wrote:The reason every ANTI makes a big song and dance of the dogs is because they know every other single bit of evidence shows the McCanns were not involved, so they cling onto the 100% success rate <> of the dogs.
Fact is this 100% quote was from the handler himself and not been verified at all. Grimes says he has been on 200 cases yet try finding them, you can't, only about 20. So has someone extended the truth to get jobs, which most people do everyday?
And bear this in mind the dogs and the handlers business venture is not that old.

I believe he left the police to start in business on his own account in July 2007.

With regard to the 200 cases - Grime states that in 200 cases the dogs have never alerted to meat based foodstuffs or roadkill. This is not the same as a 100% detection record.

Just in time to cash in on the McCann case thinking thinking

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