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When / What made you first question this "story"?

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by Praia on 14.01.12 17:59

I was away from the Algarve on Fri. May 4th and was awoken early by a friend calling saying to switch on the tv. A child had been abducted from Luz. Luz in early May is the last place a child abduction would be feasible. I heard a report that a member of the party had flown out of Portugal. As soon as I saw the first press statement by McCann I was convinced he was acting out a role. Healy looked guilty, terrified she was going to be found out.

The first time I stood outside the side gate with steep steps leading up to 5A I felt sick at how easy a fall onto them could seriously injure a child. I did not believe two doctor's would leave young children on their own asleep in that apt.

I saw at first hand the massive search that went on for so many days and the anguish of the local Portuguese people who at that time had such a desire to help the family. The circus that followed only strengthened my suspicions that McCann and Healy know exactly what happened to Madeleine.

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Well said Praia

Post by russiandoll on 14.01.12 19:06

@Praia wrote:I was away from the Algarve on Fri. May 4th and was awoken early by a friend calling saying to switch on the tv. A child had been abducted from Luz. Luz in early May is the last place a child abduction would be feasible. I heard a report that a member of the party had flown out of Portugal. As soon as I saw the first press statement by McCann I was convinced he was acting out a role. Healy looked guilty, terrified she was going to be found out.

The first time I stood outside the side gate with steep steps leading up to 5A I felt sick at how easy a fall onto them could seriously injure a child. I did not believe two doctor's would leave young children on their own asleep in that apt.


I saw at first hand the massive search that went on for so many days and the anguish of the local Portuguese people who at that time had such a desire to help the family. The circus that followed only strengthened my suspicions that McCann and Healy know exactly what happened to Madeleine.

I have highlighted in bold: I don't think they would/did either. Look at Kate's book when she speaks about it being insulting to the intelligence to think Maddie could have wandered off. I think she might well have been honest here as they were being cared for elsewhere.

She states continually the patio doors were left closed but unlocked. This meant access to those very steps. There was a safety gate at the top that she said Madeleine would not have opened then closed before descending those steps, nor would she have closed both the patio doors and curtains behind them after leaving 5a.[ we are to believe this is how she found things at 10pm].

The whole point of a safety gate is that it is shut so tight little fingers can't open it. If Maddie needed to alert her parents to crying siblings, her own tears, feeling sick or heaven forbid a fire, what could she have done ?
Neighbouring apartments empty of adults who were with her parents. If she opened the patio doors, what then? The safety gate was not safe if she could open it and fall down those steps in the dark. If Kate was being dishonest and it was in fact securely closed, presuming there was a certain level of noise from the tapas [ it is stated in more than one document that they tapas lot were fairly vocal in the evenings,there was also maybe background music]...how, from the balcony where she would not be seen or heard, would she alert her parents to an emergency?

Doctors who know about child safety and have seen all kinds of accidents during their training, leave their 3 under 4s alone in the evening in these circumstances?
Kate McCann is insulting my[ and many others'] intelligence.

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by Praia on 14.01.12 19:50

Abolutely Russiandoll. Hi by the way, I am new here but have followed the whole saga since May 4.

If you look at pictures of the whole balcony area of 5A, as one goes up the steps on your right is a railing. Behind this is a patio area with chairs close to the railing. So easy for a child to pull a chair over, stand on it, lean over on the rails and...

A friend had a ground floor apt.with similar railings. Her son was up and fell over the side in seconds, he was rushed to hospital. Lucky to have concussion. But this was nothing like the height of 5A and she is an amazing mother.

I do not believe there was neglect of the other children, Madeleine however I dread to think. The whole checking charade is a smoke screen.

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by Cristobell on 17.01.12 14:41

Kate's constant use of Cuddle Cat as a prop made me feel uncomfortable and manipulated, especially as it was strategically placed peeking out of the top of a rucksack, to provide a further photo opportunity.

I also felt that the parents should have accepted responsibility and used their tragic loss to highlight the dangers of leaving young childred on their own. It seemed bizarre that not only did the two doctors preach that their actions were 'normal' parenting, but so many commentators leapt to their defence with the strange mantra, that it is something we all do - and a terrible reflection on British families in the eyes of the rest of the world.

I also could not understand the need for hard cash - Madeleine was the most highly publicised missing child in the world, why did they need money?

More recently I was surprised to learn (from this forum actually) that the first picture they distributed was considerably out of date, and bore little resemblance to the child who was supposedly missing. All very strange and I await the result of the SY review with interest. I hope that the investigation concentrates on the events in PDL at the material time, before chasing after dubious leads. Should add that I was also astounded that neither Kate nor Gerry, on being asked by Sandra F, whether there had been any leads that offered hope, could not recall one single incident.

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The way the Mcanns sat for interviews made me feel uncomfortable...

Post by worriedmum on 17.01.12 19:28

I am new to this forum but I know that there has been a great deal of discussion about the body language of Madeleine's parents , especially when they were asked challenging questions.
Did anyone else feel uncomfortable with the way they would sit with their hands resting on one another's inner thighs during interviews? It felt too intimate for the situation, as if they either were unaware or did not care that it was inappropriate?

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 29.01.12 15:00

I hadn't seen this thread before - its very similar to my 'What made YOU doubt the abduction hypothesis?' thread. In answer to the question 'When/what first made me question this 'story'' -
1)When? Immediately and without hesitation.
2)What? Quite simple. The body language jarred with he words coming out of their mouths.

Words are the crux of the point I'd like to make. Back on page 2 or 3, the interview with Piers Morgan and the question regarding the 'coloboma'
Kate says;
'If I'm honest, we didn't make too much of it,... SNIPPED'

Here's what that sentence really means when put under the forensic linguistics microscope...
Kate McCann: "If I'm honest (I'm not), we didn't make too much of it (We did, its all we focussed on)... SNIPPED

Forensic linguistics teaches us that phrases such as 'If I'm being honest' - 'In all honesty' 'To tell the truth' these are all superfluous to the statement being spoken; they are designed to underline and reinforce strongly what the speaker is saying. However, they indicate dishonesty as a truthful statement needs no qualifying. The brain hates to lie. Hence why Kate obviously was unable to just reply to Piers 'We didn't make too much of it' - that would be a complete outright demonstrable falsehood - so in slips the pre-cursor 'If I'm honest (I'm anything but!!!)'. The human brain is very, very clever.
It has often been argued that such statements can be put down to dialect, social class etc. However, all these. Factors have been taken into account and they are irrelevant.
Its a fascinating subject, and for those really serious about this case I highly recommend finding out more. Dr Martin Roberts over at mccannfiles is always a good read, and I highly recommend the 'Statement Analysis' site - they have studied and commented on excerpts of Kate's diary... It really is dynamite stuff!

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Truth is artless and innocent - like the eloquence of nature, it is clothed with simplicity and easy persuasion; always open to investigation and analysis, it seeks exposure because it fears not detection.

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by Cristobell on 29.01.12 15:40

Interesting stuff Rainbow. Do you have a link to the statement analysis site? Many thanks/

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 29.01.12 17:08

Hey Cristobell, sorry for the delay, I'm having real trouble posting again!
It is a fascinating read. I'm not too good at links, so I hope this works:

seamusoriley.blogspot.com/.../statement-analysis-diary-of-kate-mccann.html

Here is an excerpt from the introduction;

"The following is analysis of the diary of missing Madeleine McCann's mother's diary.

A diary is a form of communication, therefore, it is subject to analysis. Anything that is intended for communication can be set to analysis.

Statement Analysis, in all its forms, is not wooden, but it is fluid. Local dialect, expressions, education level, and so on, are all part of the analysis; but none of these things exempt the subject from analysis. Many seek to excuse or 'give a pass' of one way or another, by employing one of these topics. If someone communicates through sarcasm, we will recognize not only the sarcasm, but the words chosen, as they do not come from a vacuum.

In texting, we are able to employ ongoing techniques of analysis, recognizing patterns.

Please note that everyone has an internal, subjective, personal dictionary, and it is the SCAN technique of Statement Analysis that seeks to 'break the code' of the internal, personal, subjective dictionary, for the purpose of understanding. "

I highly recommend this site. They analyse other people and crimes too. They have some clever and dedicated 'pupils' who post insightful comments, too.

____________________
"Ask the dogs, Sandra" - Gerry McCann to Sandra Felgueiras



Truth is artless and innocent - like the eloquence of nature, it is clothed with simplicity and easy persuasion; always open to investigation and analysis, it seeks exposure because it fears not detection.

NORMAN MACDONALD, Maxims and Moral Reflections.

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by Cristobell on 29.01.12 17:26

@rainbow-fairy wrote:Hey Cristobell, sorry for the delay, I'm having real trouble posting again!
It is a fascinating read. I'm not too good at links, so I hope this works:

seamusoriley.blogspot.com/.../statement-analysis-diary-of-kate-mccann.html

Here is an excerpt from the introduction;

"The following is analysis of the diary of missing Madeleine McCann's mother's diary.

A diary is a form of communication, therefore, it is subject to analysis. Anything that is intended for communication can be set to analysis.

Statement Analysis, in all its forms, is not wooden, but it is fluid. Local dialect, expressions, education level, and so on, are all part of the analysis; but none of these things exempt the subject from analysis. Many seek to excuse or 'give a pass' of one way or another, by employing one of these topics. If someone communicates through sarcasm, we will recognize not only the sarcasm, but the words chosen, as they do not come from a vacuum.

In texting, we are able to employ ongoing techniques of analysis, recognizing patterns.

Please note that everyone has an internal, subjective, personal dictionary, and it is the SCAN technique of Statement Analysis that seeks to 'break the code' of the internal, personal, subjective dictionary, for the purpose of understanding. "

I highly recommend this site. They analyse other people and crimes too. They have some clever and dedicated 'pupils' who post insightful comments, too.



Many thanks Rainbow, I'm looking forward to having a good read :)

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by Guest on 29.01.12 17:30

@rainbow-fairy wrote:Dr Martin Roberts over at mccannfiles is always a good read, and I highly recommend the 'Statement Analysis' site - they have studied and commented on excerpts of Kate's diary... It really is dynamite stuff!

Hi Rainbow fairy,

I'm a big fan of Dr Roberts and Statement Analysis.. who'd have thought that the written record could provide such brilliant insights into the workings of the mind - both unconscious automatic statements the brain instinctively says and the conscious attempts to correct what the unconscious mind is making you say...

I loved the statement analysis of kate's diaries - really wish there were more analysis there on their various statements.

It's also providing very interesting reading on the numerous disappearing children cases there seem to have been in America over the last year, including Lisa Irwin and Ayla Reynolds.


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Birthday balloon photos!

Post by OpenMind on 29.01.12 19:58

I was a total believer and my heart bled for those poor parents until I saw the photos of them outside the church in PDL on MBM's 4th birthday, they looked like they had just come from her party and hadn't a care in the world!


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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by Cristobell on 29.01.12 20:40

I always thought the government spin doctors f*cked up and jumped on the sympathy wagon, before knowing the full facts. I tend to think along the 'keep it simple stupid' school of thought, but the more I read, the more intriguing this becomes.

I think, credit where it is due, they probably didn't reckon on coming across a media monster such as Gerry. This was a man who had dreamed of fame and riches all his life. He probably practices public speaking as a hobby, actually that little hobby probably goes back to his adolescence.

Those of us who were taken in with the first wave of publicity, eventually had our own epiphanies, but by then the government were committed and could not risk losing face. Tbh, I think Gerry was always one step ahead of them, the man's a genius, like one of those mad scientists, before anyone knew it, he had a full blown media campaign underway, he may even have had a white board and an assistant called Igor.................

I would love to discuss the psychological aspects of this case, but not sure to find the threads? If indeed there are any! This blooming case, I even censor myself before posting these days! That is why it is such an affront to free speech!

My head is buzzing with the amount of reading I have been doing lately, but back to the 'KISS -keep it simple stupid, as I understand it, basically, the McCann's main demand is that no-one is allowed to say they were suspects 'out loud' so to speak - even though they were.

Are we allowed to think it? Must go have a little re-read of 1984 and the McArthy trials!



CRISTOBELL




“The more you can increase fear of drugs, crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.”
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ever deeper. Things that you once suspected are proving to be true.











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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 29.01.12 23:24

@Cristobell wrote:I always thought the government spin doctors f*cked up and jumped on the sympathy wagon, before knowing the full facts. I tend to think along the 'keep it simple stupid' school of thought, but the more I read, the more intriguing this becomes.

I think, credit where it is due, they probably didn't reckon on coming across a media monster such as Gerry. This was a man who had dreamed of fame and riches all his life. He probably practices public speaking as a hobby, actually that little hobby probably goes back to his adolescence.

Those of us who were taken in with the first wave of publicity, eventually had our own epiphanies, but by then the government were committed and could not risk losing face. Tbh, I think Gerry was always one step ahead of them, the man's a genius, like one of those mad scientists, before anyone knew it, he had a full blown media campaign underway, he may even have had a white board and an assistant called Igor.................

I would love to discuss the psychological aspects of this case, but not sure to find the threads? If indeed there are any! This blooming case, I even censor myself before posting these days! That is why it is such an affront to free speech!

My head is buzzing with the amount of reading I have been doing lately, but back to the 'KISS -keep it simple stupid, as I understand it, basically, the McCann's main demand is that no-one is allowed to say they were suspects 'out loud' so to speak - even though they were.

Are we allowed to think it? Must go have a little re-read of 1984 and the McArthy trials!



CRISTOBELL




“The more you can increase fear of drugs, crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.”
Noam Chomsky

ever deeper. Things that you once suspected are proving to be true.










Hmmm, interesting analysis, Cristobell - unfortunately I can't agree!
I don't in any way, shape or form believe Gerry NcCann to be a genius. Evil, quite possibly, but genius? No way. From what I've seen and heard of him, I'd say he is no higher than average intelligence, if that. Note his loss of temper when he can't get his point across outside the Lisbon Court Room. His sarcastic 'Ask th dogs, Sandra' when asked a difficult question he just couldn't work out an answer to. No, I believe he's more of a bumbling idiot than an evil genius!

I also don't believe the government became involved through sympathy. You can bet they knew exactly what was going on. Why, if they had anything about them, they'd use this case publicly as 'How not to Parent Children - Lesson One; Do not leave three year old in charge of two year olds whilst you go out on the lash!'. Still, I think you can bet they already knew the McCann's hadn't done this anyway.
IMO, the McCanns are still walking free purely because arses are being covered. Sympathy doesn't come into it. I don't recall Ben Nedddham's family getting all the consular help Kate and Gerry did - they didn't get millions for a 'review' either.
I believe the McCanns do not run the show and if things get too hot, they will be sacrificed. Without sympathy!

____________________
"Ask the dogs, Sandra" - Gerry McCann to Sandra Felgueiras



Truth is artless and innocent - like the eloquence of nature, it is clothed with simplicity and easy persuasion; always open to investigation and analysis, it seeks exposure because it fears not detection.

NORMAN MACDONALD, Maxims and Moral Reflections.

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 30.01.12 8:30

Stewie wrote:
@rainbow-fairy wrote:Dr Martin Roberts over at mccannfiles is always a good read, and I highly recommend the 'Statement Analysis' site - they have studied and commented on excerpts of Kate's diary... It really is dynamite stuff!

Hi Rainbow fairy,

I'm a big fan of Dr Roberts and Statement Analysis.. who'd have thought that the written record could provide such brilliant insights into the workings of the mind - both unconscious automatic statements the brain instinctively says and the conscious attempts to correct what the unconscious mind is making you say...

I loved the statement analysis of kate's diaries - really wish there were more analysis there on their various statements.

It's also providing very interesting reading on the numerous disappearing children cases there seem to have been in America over the last year, including Lisa Irwin and Ayla Reynolds.

Morning Stewie!
Certainly I don't think the McCanns, for one minute, thought their words and statements would be picked over by the likes of Dr Roberts! I truly think they are that arrogant they thought it would go like this; Madeleine has been abducted, because we say so. Police look for yet fail to find abductor or Maddie. Case closed!
I think its probably been an unpleasant surprise, to say the least, that almost five years on, we are still here and finding out more every day! Ho hum!
Yep its a fascinating thing to study. Could I ask a favour Stewie, please? If you stumble over any interesting sites or articles you let me know? I'll do the same for you... I hadn't heard of Ayla Reynolds, thank you - now off for a quick read Wink

____________________
"Ask the dogs, Sandra" - Gerry McCann to Sandra Felgueiras



Truth is artless and innocent - like the eloquence of nature, it is clothed with simplicity and easy persuasion; always open to investigation and analysis, it seeks exposure because it fears not detection.

NORMAN MACDONALD, Maxims and Moral Reflections.

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What WERE/WAS your TURNING point/s about this case.

Post by jeanmonroe on 14.09.13 12:09

Why don't/didn't people BELIEVE the McCanns unconditionally?

When Madeleine went 'missing' i'm sure that EVERYONE would have wanted a successful 'outcome'

However, when John Hill said almost straight away that the shutters had NOT been "tampered with" my ears pricked up.

On the 4th/5th May 2007 i had heard by then from Jill Renwick,(nothing valuable taken) Aunty Phil (clear line of sight of children) and Trish Cameron (all asleep, sleeping, windows shut, shutters shut at 9:30pm) saying that the shutters had been 'forced, jemmied, broken into and smashed' totally contradicting Mr Hill, resort manager.

That was my FIRST turning point!

My SECOND turning point was 6th May 2007....KM (appeal?) outside church, SCRUNCHY face , NO tears.

Ergo, my 'disbeliefs' were formed at least 14 months BEFORE Mr GA put pen to paper for his book released on
24th July 2008

Yet K &G would have me believe that i was 'influenced' by Mr GA's book into not believeing THEM!.

What were your 'turning points'?

And how long BEFORE GA's book was published did you arrive at them?

And don't even get me started on the 'turning points' in the T9 statements and Rogs!
I'd get so dizzy whizzing around with them i'd probably disappear up my own ****!
big grin big grin big grin

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by PeterMac on 14.09.13 12:52

For me about day 3, though it is difficult to recall. I live in southern Spain, so there was a tiny extra interest.
When she was not found alive within 12 hours, or dead within 36 I began to read a little more.
Then I saw them on TV ! ! !

And as my old Det Insp would have said "Fetch him in, and fetch his grandmother in".
They should have been separated then and there and interviewed very firmly by a fluent English speaker.
At length.

I haven't actually read the whole of GA's book, just dipped into it.
It doesn't seem to add much to the interim report of Tavares de Almeida.

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by Cristobell on 14.09.13 12:59

One of the significant turning points for me was Kate arriving at the police station with Cuddlecat strategically peeping out of the top of her rucksack. It dawned on me then that we were all being manipulated.

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by russiandoll on 14.09.13 13:18

Always doubted what was being told to the media and the police.

 Turning point, " madeleine" by Kate McCann, read in a day and a half, a mediocre book at best, but for an insight into events and the main players,    fabulous dahling.

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contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by Guest on 14.09.13 13:21

Resurrecting this old topic as a new similar new one has started.

Memories of so many posters who seem to have been abducted - where are they all now!

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by Guest on 14.09.13 13:47

From the beginning it was hard to get past the report of leaving Madeleine at home in the apartment in a foreign country and then discovering it wasn't just her but her twin siblings also. It was my better half who did some digging in response to reading Kate's book. She was shocked to the core, did some digging on the PJ files and it became an interesting topic at some get togethers with friends. She often says it was like peeling an onion, just when you think you've seen it all along comes another layer that's even more troubling and bizarre. 

If I could point the finger at any one cause it's Kate's book that rouses most suspicion and the content of the PJ files that raises concern about them and the actions and statements of the tapas. IMO this transcends everything else, even the compelling evidence of Eddie and Keela. Kate says:


To give any credence whatsoever to the idea that Madeleine could have walked out on her own you would have to accept that she had gone out the back way, pulling aside the sitting-room curtains and drawing them again, then opening the patio door, the child-safety gate at the top of the stairs on the veranda and the little gate to the road - and carefully closing all three behind her
Kate has check mated herself because she has already told us that one of the first things she did after raising the alarm was check the car park out front. She's clear that Madeleine didn't wander out the front door which equally means the abductor couldn't have done so either, the only way she can know that is she needed her keys to open the front door as it couldn't be opened from the inside. We know from forensics that nobody left through the window and Gerry was (according to JT and JW) blocking that very gate that the abductor would have needed to get through. 

In her effort to justify the reason she knew Madeleine was abducted she's just told the world that the same abduction was impossible. IMO.

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by jeanmonroe on 14.09.13 14:11

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Resurrecting this old topic as a new similar new one has started.

Memories of so many posters who seem to have been abducted - where are they all now!
That would be my fault.

Sorry.

I just thought that i'd ask WHEN did people became sceptical and was it BEFORE GA's book was published, based entirely on the PJ Final report..

As the libel trial is on now and KM's assertion that when GA's book was published, and that, and only that, stopped people in their tracks believeing her and Gerry's 'story'.

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by Guest on 14.09.13 14:15

No fault JM, you wouldn't have known.

There can be no doubt that people had sussed out the McCanns long before "The Truth of the Lie" was ever published.

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by Guest on 14.09.13 14:37

@jeanmonroe wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Resurrecting this old topic as a new similar new one has started.

Memories of so many posters who seem to have been abducted - where are they all now!
That would be my fault.

Sorry.

I just thought that i'd ask WHEN did people became sceptical and was it BEFORE GA's book was published, based entirely on the PJ Final report..

As the libel trial is on now and KM's assertion that when GA's book was published, and that, and only that, stopped people in their tracks believeing her and Gerry's 'story'.
Have merged the two threads.

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by Praiaaa on 14.09.13 17:24

Like PeterMac - about day 3 when there was 24/7 coverage. I did not believe in stranger abduction, and was puzzled by the TM insistence that MM could not have wandered out - why not - surely that is the only rational explanation - why be so vehement in dismissing it... (Was also very angry when my son's primary school brainwashed the children into asking their parents to give a donation to the Fund - why not a missing person's charity I asked them!) Joined the Mirror forum while it lasted, and then the 3A. Was angry again with the Shrek ads - same son came home from a Shrek cinema party and was worried about being stolen from his bed. I have always told him that strangers don't come and steal children, MM probably wandered out to look for her parents and fell into some roadworks, and he would never need to wander out in the night because his mummy and daddy never leave him or his sister alone - he has a babysitter to look after him if we go out.
Had a few years off when the 3A disappeared, then found this forum which I appreciate for its sane and rational approach - no hysterical vitriol, just normal rational, compassionate people wanting justice for MM.

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Re: When / What made you first question this "story"?

Post by Penfold on 14.09.13 17:41

i'm very similar to you praiaaa - certainly within the first 3 or 4 days and months [14?] before GA's book came out. I was on the DM, 3As and a couple of others as well. The McCs' story simply looked and sounded  very shifty, and the more heavy duty 'help' they got convinced me there was something more to this story. 

I'm also pleased I found this forum -happy to get back to reasoned debate on the topics!

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