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What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

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What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by DCB1 on 21.12.09 21:23

Repeated over and over that there was no evidence of an abductor - and keeps getting interleaved in various topics.

Exactly what would the police expect to find?

To start with I posted this on another thread:

1, incomplete and unidentified fingerprints on shutters
2. unidentified hair in the apt
3. a child is missing.

Now consider these items that COULD but were NOT examined immediately

1. the bedding was not sealed and taken for examination
2. there was no full forensic sweep of the apt immediately

Without an immediate full forensic sweep how on earth can you find evidence?

The argument that there was no evidence of an abductor seems to be a nonsense now that we have seen the files.

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 21:42

Well,when we consider how the Flat was forensically examined, its a no brainer. If the abductor had left any traces they would not have been found, or matched.

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 21:44

I posted this on the other thread :
It is true there's 6 hairs missing from an envelope? The envelope that contained the hairs they found on her bed?*
CuddleCat nor the blanked were examined as far as I know.
No testing for fingerprints on the bedroom door either.

* I should correct that, on the photo there's 10 markers on the bed, in the envelope were 4 hairs.
No hairs from the bed next to the window?

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by vaguely on 21.12.09 21:48

@DCB1 wrote:Repeated over and over that there was no evidence of an abductor - and keeps getting interleaved in various topics.

Exactly what would the police expect to find?

To start with I posted this on another thread:

1, incomplete and unidentified fingerprints on shutters
2. unidentified hair in the apt
3. a child is missing.

Now consider these items that COULD but were NOT examined immediately

1. the bedding was not sealed and taken for examination
2. there was no full forensic sweep of the apt immediately

Without an immediate full forensic sweep how on earth can you find evidence?

The argument that there was no evidence of an abductor seems to be a nonsense now that we have seen the files.


Even with a full forensic sweep I'm not overly convinced that much of a trace would be found - unless there were body fluids, fingerprints, weapon etc.

Considering the apartment was multi occupancy rental there was very little evidence of human beings taken from it.

Nobody analyses skin cells.

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 21:50

Sadly when a child is taken for unpleasant purposes it is more likely that identifying forensic evidence is found on the body rather than at the crime scene, wherever that scene is, unless the harm is committed at the scene.

Entering an unlocked apartment or entering using a key, removing a child and leaving again would not leave much trace evidence.

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by Finally on 21.12.09 21:52

Hi
I seem to recall some argument that it was difficult for the police to complete the forensics tests required because of the number of people that had been in and out of the apartment before they had arrived there?

Take care

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 21:56

@Finally wrote:Hi
I seem to recall some argument that it was difficult for the police to complete the forensics tests required because of the number of people that had been in and out of the apartment before they had arrived there?

Take care

That shouldn't really affect things so badly, I mean lots of crime scenes are far more messed up, people come to harm outside, in the elements, in crowded streets, public transport etc. This was a holiday apartment with a limited number of people in it, all identifiable and some people who entered, also identifiable.

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 21:57

@Finally wrote:Hi
I seem to recall some argument that it was difficult for the police to complete the forensics tests required because of the number of people that had been in and out of the apartment before they had arrived there?

Take care

Yes, people searching the apartment (including the GNR) might have destroyed fingerprints.
Would it have destroyed other evidence? I doubt that.

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by vaguely on 21.12.09 22:01

@Finally wrote:Hi
I seem to recall some argument that it was difficult for the police to complete the forensics tests required because of the number of people that had been in and out of the apartment before they had arrived there?

Take care

Unfortunately their crime scene was trampled. Never a great start. But you would have the tramplers available to take elimination samples from. I'd have thought footwear seizure would have been a good idea.

I'm at a loss to understand why parents weren't immediately treated (sympathetically) as suspects, and why bedding wasn't immediately bagged.

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by vaguely on 21.12.09 22:02

Molly wrote:
@Finally wrote:Hi
I seem to recall some argument that it was difficult for the police to complete the forensics tests required because of the number of people that had been in and out of the apartment before they had arrived there?

Take care

Yes, people searching the apartment (including the GNR) might have destroyed fingerprints.
Would it have destroyed other evidence? I doubt that.

It wouldn't have destroyed evidence, but certainly hairs etc could have been disturbed/moved, and forensic sample could become contaminated. It wouldn't have destroyed anything though.

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 22:13

@vaguely wrote:
Molly wrote:
@Finally wrote:Hi
I seem to recall some argument that it was difficult for the police to complete the forensics tests required because of the number of people that had been in and out of the apartment before they had arrived there?

Take care

Yes, people searching the apartment (including the GNR) might have destroyed fingerprints.
Would it have destroyed other evidence? I doubt that.

It wouldn't have destroyed evidence, but certainly hairs etc could have been disturbed/moved, and forensic sample could become contaminated. It wouldn't have destroyed anything though.

So in fact they should have searched the bathroom, kitchen, parent's bedroom, living room also to find traces (like hairs) as they could have been moved?

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 22:23

Do we think Laziness,incompetance or something else?

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 22:26

PearlB wrote:Do we think Laziness,incompetance or something else?

Possibly simply lack of experience, in the uk missing person cases are treated in exactly the same way as murder enquiries, that way if the worst happens then no evidence will be lost but this has come through years of experience and learning.

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 22:38

tyra wrote:Sadly when a child is taken for unpleasant purposes it is more likely that identifying forensic evidence is found on the body rather than at the crime scene, wherever that scene is, unless the harm is committed at the scene.

Entering an unlocked apartment or entering using a key, removing a child and leaving again would not leave much trace evidence.


But how could an abductor physically remove a child without the child screaming the place down. They can't have drugged her as there was no smell of chloroform in the apartment. K & G as doctors would immediately have known, and mentioned this to the police. They can't have injected her, as she would have screamed, and they can't have given her pills as they would take too long to work. So how did the abductor get her out of the apartment so silently.

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 22:40

candyfloss wrote:
tyra wrote:Sadly when a child is taken for unpleasant purposes it is more likely that identifying forensic evidence is found on the body rather than at the crime scene, wherever that scene is, unless the harm is committed at the scene.

Entering an unlocked apartment or entering using a key, removing a child and leaving again would not leave much trace evidence.


But how could an abductor physically remove a child without the child screaming the place down. They can't have drugged her as there was no smell of chloroform in the apartment. K & G as doctors would immediately have known, and mentioned this to the police. They can't have injected her, as she would have screamed, and they can't have given her pills as they would take too long to work. So how did the abductor get her out of the apartment so silently.

She was most probably asleep, parents carry their sleeping children from place a to b all the time without any screaming, why would there be screaming?

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by MaryB on 21.12.09 22:45

Why must we believe the abduction theory. I simply don't believe an abductor entered the apartment and took Madeleine. I just simply do not believe that happened. I might be wrong of course. Why is this the theory that is being so heavily pushed.

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 22:53

@MaryB wrote:Why must we believe the abduction theory. I simply don't believe an abductor entered the apartment and took Madeleine. I just simply do not believe that happened. I might be wrong of course. Why is this the theory that is being so heavily pushed.

Because it's the one that fits the evidence. if you are going to choose to believe something that does not fit the evidence why stick with parental involvement, I say bring out the aliens!

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by MaryB on 21.12.09 23:01

Who has said the abductor theory fits the evidence.

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 23:03

tyra wrote:
@MaryB wrote:Why must we believe the abduction theory. I simply don't believe an abductor entered the apartment and took Madeleine. I just simply do not believe that happened. I might be wrong of course. Why is this the theory that is being so heavily pushed.

Because it's the one that fits the evidence. if you are going to choose to believe something that does not fit the evidence why stick with parental involvement, I say bring out the aliens!


I am still waiting for someone to supply the evidence. If you can I will be only to happy to go along with that theory. Please don't say JT's sighting, because that cannot be proved. 2 other people were standing there at the time and didn't see anything, very strange.

On the other hand there is far more evidence for the other scenario, i.e. the dogs, the timelines of the tapas 7, the way abduction was pushed from the very first minute. The stories from the family saying the window was jemmied etc., etc.

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 23:04

@MaryB wrote:Who has said the abductor theory fits the evidence.

Well what does fit the evidence? Child missing, window left open, man seen carrying a child through streets not identified, unidentified prints in apartment, parental involvement ruled out, what's left?

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by MaryB on 21.12.09 23:10

It is the police's job to decide what fits the evidence or indications.

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by DCB1 on 21.12.09 23:10

Do we just write off the partial fingerprints and the unidentified hair then?

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by DCB1 on 21.12.09 23:13

@MaryB wrote:It is the police's job to decide what fits the evidence or indications.

The question is - did they do their job in collecting ALL available evidence from the crime scene.
It doesn't matter if 10's or 1000's had trampled through the apt - they could eliminate the 10's or the 1000's through samples -cos they knew who was there.

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 23:16

DCB1, can you remind me where the hair and unidentified fingerprints were found.?

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Re: What evidence of an abductor would you expect?

Post by marigold on 21.12.09 23:21

tyra wrote:
@MaryB wrote:Who has said the abductor theory fits the evidence.

Well what does fit the evidence? Child missing, window left open, man seen carrying a child through streets not identified, unidentified prints in apartment, parental involvement ruled out, what's left?

Parental involvement has NOT been ruled out. The conclusion was that it was inconclusive! What actual EVIDENCE points to an abduction other than one of their friends saying they saw a man walking away with a child? JW didn't even see Jane Tanner and said it would have been impossible NOT to see her if she passed by when she said she did! The only independent witnesses saw a man that some of the group said was Gerry, walking with a child. The window, if opened at all, was opened by Kate Mccann herself as her fingerprints showed.
Parental involvement is, statistically, far, far,more likely than stranger abduction. Their weird comments and behaviour is also a pointer and we also have the dogs. Therefore, parental involvement is a far more likely scenario and NOTHING HAS BEEN RULED OUT and that includes the Mccanns and/or friends being involved.

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