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Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 19:52

tyra wrote:Were they made arguido's for a reason, I mean there is a list in the files to explain why Robert Murat was made an arguido but not one for the Mccanns, perhaps the PJ just realised a bit late that it might be a good idea to rule out the closest people to Madeleine, her family. It was documented that the Mccanns were planning to leave Portugal after 4 months, perhaps they thought they should try and do that before they came home to the uk?
Did I read somewhere that it was unlikely they would have been made Arguidoes if it had not been rushed through?

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 19:54

PearlB wrote:
tyra wrote:Were they made arguido's for a reason, I mean there is a list in the files to explain why Robert Murat was made an arguido but not one for the Mccanns, perhaps the PJ just realised a bit late that it might be a good idea to rule out the closest people to Madeleine, her family. It was documented that the Mccanns were planning to leave Portugal after 4 months, perhaps they thought they should try and do that before they came home to the uk?
Did I read somewhere that it was unlikely they would have been made Arguidoes if it had not been rushed through?

The protocol for naming people as arguidos was about to change, that evidence would soon be required to justify the move, rather than simply a wish to ask questions that might technically result in an individual incriminating themselves.

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 19:59

tyra wrote:
PearlB wrote:
tyra wrote:Were they made arguido's for a reason, I mean there is a list in the files to explain why Robert Murat was made an arguido but not one for the Mccanns, perhaps the PJ just realised a bit late that it might be a good idea to rule out the closest people to Madeleine, her family. It was documented that the Mccanns were planning to leave Portugal after 4 months, perhaps they thought they should try and do that before they came home to the uk?
Did I read somewhere that it was unlikely they would have been made Arguidoes if it had not been rushed through?

The protocol for naming people as arguidos was about to change, that evidence would soon be required to justify the move, rather than simply a wish to ask questions that might technically result in an individual incriminating themselves.
I thought that was the case. Thanks.

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by DCB1 on 21.12.09 20:00

"As they were summoned to depose again, while there was no plausible explanation for those situations and as they were to be confronted with the dogs’ findings and with the lab information, which were susceptible of rendering them responsible as authors of crimes (at least, of neglectful homicide and of concealment of a cadaver), they were, obligatorily and inexorably, made arguidos, in strict obedience to article 59 nr. 1 of the Penal Process Code; thus the disposition from nr. 4 of article 58 (presently 5) – its new redaction was not in force yet, taking into account that they were made arguidos on the 6th of September 2009 – and on the other hand they could benefit from arguido status, with all the rights and guarantees of defence that are inherent to it, despite the stigma that is associated with it, which is techno-juridically misadjusted. In effect, the constitution and questioning as arguidos, while used to confirm indications towards the committing of crimes, are also used, with equal strength and reason, to infirm indications and to eliminate suspects.

As judicially stressed in the sentence dated 06.10.1990 by the then Judge of the Police Court of Lisbon. “The authority that directs the inquiry is not free to postpone the moment when a witness passes into arguido status (…) if diligences are being performed, which are destined to prove her imputation, that affect her personally (…)”
Colectânea de Jurisprudência, 1990, vol. IV. p.323 and following.

The constitution of Gerald and Kate McCann as arguidos at that moment is nothing more that the practical fulfilment of the right to defence of those arguidos, which is to say, to ensure their concrete rights to “co-determine or conform the process’ final decision. Said rights assume consistency and effectiveness, according to the new Code, right after the moment of constitution as an arguido, and therefore, still during the inquiry and the instruction.” - Professor Jorge de Figueiredo Dias, "Sobre os sujeitos processuais no novo Código de Processo Penal" Jornadas de Processo Penal, CEJ, Livraria Almedina, 1988, p 28.

Therefore, under the light of interpretation of the elements that constituted the process at that date, there is no doubt whatsoever concerning the legitimacy and legality of their constitution as arguidos, as it is also certain that any investigation has its own dynamics and the continuous flow of elements into the files may alter the situation, as it has, and no judgment or presumption of guilt can be extracted from such a process act."

from http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic488.html
Archiving dispatch - "Legal summary"

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 20:04

I think that the act of making the McCanns Arguidos put a different slant on the case. There was and is no evidence against them so who would benefit......It didn't seem to benefit the McCanns in any way that I could see. Maybe I'm a little slow.

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by DCB1 on 21.12.09 20:08

Well they thought they had the dogs and forensic evidence, and a missing girl.

They were looking for a confession.

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 20:13

PearlB wrote:I think that the act of making the McCanns Arguidos put a different slant on the case. There was and is no evidence against them so who would benefit......It didn't seem to benefit the McCanns in any way that I could see. Maybe I'm a little slow.

It would be standard in any investigation in any country to try and rule out parental involvement, the only criticism really is that it should have been done initially, not months later when clearly to the general public it looked as though there were real suspicions.

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by DCB1 on 21.12.09 20:14

tyra wrote:
PearlB wrote:I think that the act of making the McCanns Arguidos put a different slant on the case. There was and is no evidence against them so who would benefit......It didn't seem to benefit the McCanns in any way that I could see. Maybe I'm a little slow.

It would be standard in any investigation in any country to try and rule out parental involvement, the only criticism really is that it should have been done initially, not months later when clearly to the general public it looked as though there were real suspicions.

The dogs should have been brought in earlier.

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 20:17

@DCB1 wrote:
tyra wrote:
PearlB wrote:I think that the act of making the McCanns Arguidos put a different slant on the case. There was and is no evidence against them so who would benefit......It didn't seem to benefit the McCanns in any way that I could see. Maybe I'm a little slow.

It would be standard in any investigation in any country to try and rule out parental involvement, the only criticism really is that it should have been done initially, not months later when clearly to the general public it looked as though there were real suspicions.

The dogs should have been brought in earlier.

there is so much that could have/should have been done, the dogs, a full forensic sweep, investigating the parents and family simultaneously to the follow up of potential abductors etc

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 20:22

No not the dogs! Nor the supposed DNA. Next you will be talking about Calpol. Hissyfit

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 20:22

tyra wrote:
@DCB1 wrote:
tyra wrote:
PearlB wrote:I think that the act of making the McCanns Arguidos put a different slant on the case. There was and is no evidence against them so who would benefit......It didn't seem to benefit the McCanns in any way that I could see. Maybe I'm a little slow.

It would be standard in any investigation in any country to try and rule out parental involvement, the only criticism really is that it should have been done initially, not months later when clearly to the general public it looked as though there were real suspicions.

The dogs should have been brought in earlier.

there is so much that could have/should have been done, the dogs, a full forensic sweep, investigating the parents and family simultaneously to the follow up of potential abductors etc
It was all rather ass about face.

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by DCB1 on 21.12.09 20:32

The thing is - if the mccanns had done it - the evidence would have been there, fresh, immediately.

I don't believe that anyone stopped them finding the truth (gov't interference etc) - they just didn't look.

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 20:45

@DCB1 wrote:The thing is - if the mccanns had done it - the evidence would have been there, fresh, immediately.

I don't believe that anyone stopped them finding the truth (gov't interference etc) - they just didn't look.

They had to hold their hands up and admit that mistakes were made in the early stages of the investigation, sadly these errors not only compounded Madeleine's fate but has also led to a level of suspicion aimed at the parents.

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 20:51

I have often thought that the amount of mistakes,oversights etc was a bit too bad if you get my drift. Would even the most incompetant police Force make so many errors?

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by DCB1 on 21.12.09 20:53

PearlB wrote:I have often thought that the amount of mistakes,oversights etc was a bit too bad if you get my drift. Would even the most incompetant police Force make so many errors?

I am sure all police forces make mistakes some of the time - unfortunately this is a case of a missing girl.

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 20:57

PearlB wrote:I have often thought that the amount of mistakes,oversights etc was a bit too bad if you get my drift. Would even the most incompetant police Force make so many errors?

It was well documented at the time that this type of case was considered unusual, it was often stated that there were few abductions in Portugal, which is great for Portugal but not so good for the unlucky family who do experience it, I'm sure the PJ have learned masses from this case (as Amaral said in an interview a while back, there is now a handbook outlining what is expected of police when investigating these sorts of crimes now) but that doesn't help the McCanns.

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 21:01

From reading on the net, abductions or missing children are not that rare in Portugal. Seemingly how they go about looking or not needed to be changed bigtime.

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Patty O'Daws on 21.12.09 21:05

Can you tell us what evidence you have that there was an abduction?

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 21:06

Probably the same amount of evidence that points to the parents.

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 21:08

An abduction would be almost impossible to 'prove' until the victim is found, but when other options are ruled out it is common sense to accept that this is the most probable crime, sadly.

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 21:09

PearlB wrote:Probably the same amount of evidence that points to the parents.

Actually more, the parents have been fully investigated and no evidence found that suggests they would or could harm their own child, in contrast the abductor has not been found or investigated because they got away.

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by DCB1 on 21.12.09 21:10

@Patty O'Daws wrote:Can you tell us what evidence you have that there was an abduction?

1, incomplete and unidentified fingerprints on shutters
2. unidentified hair in the apt
3. a child is missing.

Now consider these items that COULD but were NOT examined immediately

1. the bedding was not sealed and taken for examination
2. there was no full forensic sweep of the apt immediately

Without an immediate full forensic sweep how on earth can you find evidence?

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 21:16

tyra wrote:
PearlB wrote:Probably the same amount of evidence that points to the parents.

Actually more, the parents have been fully investigated and no evidence found that suggests they would or could harm their own child, in contrast the abductor has not been found or investigated because they got away.
Exactly. A well planned abduction could have been carried out in a minute or two.Leaving no trace.

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Patty O'Daws on 21.12.09 21:17

PearlB wrote:
tyra wrote:
PearlB wrote:Probably the same amount of evidence that points to the parents.

Actually more, the parents have been fully investigated and no evidence found that suggests they would or could harm their own child, in contrast the abductor has not been found or investigated because they got away.
Exactly. A well planned abduction could have been carried out in a minute or two.Leaving no trace.

How would they leave no trace?

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Re: Jose de Freitas, senior officer at New Scotland Yard

Post by Guest on 21.12.09 21:20

Easy apart from the missing child.

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