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What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by aiyoyo on 23.11.10 23:23

From a layperson viewpoint, if 13 out of 19 is enough to bring prosecution in USA, then how come 15 wasnt deemed sufficient becuase of the 4 unmatched.
It's not logical those posters who said in case the 4 unmatched were proven not to be maddie.
Hello, surely it's the majority matched that counted and taken in account during prosecution otherwise how to explain the 6 out of 19 not matched yet acceptable in USA. Otherwise if that logic applies then shouldnt the same argument be used in USA, ie that the 6 out of 19 unmatched needs to be proven as well.

The DNA profiling was crucial and in the effect it was what got mccanns off - lack of forensics collaboration with circumstantial evidence. Like one poster pointed out, the sleeping arrangements of mccanns were strange with beds and people move about between the two rooms no on knows which room the children were actually sleeping in. The impression was they were sleeping in their parents room, while the parents slept in separate room. All this contributed to the confusion. Did police collect forensics from the mccanns' b/room?

If the children's room were wiped clean, then what about the parents room? Was that also given a clinical going over?

Also, why did UK police request for the DNA markers to be kept under judicial secrecy if it was deemed useless.
I think if the closing summation was done by a different AG, the interpretation could be different. A different PM interpretation would mean the mccanns would have been prosecuted given those dna markers.
The request could mean the UK police was stunned by PT decision to shelve as the DNA markers constitute enough legal grounds for prosecution and should be kept under lock and keys in order not to compromise future use. jmho of course.

I am always left wondering why the PM came up with the decision to shelve. I heard PM was changed during mid course and cant help feeling legal politiking plays a part in that. Not politicis politiking but the judiciary system in PT also have their own politics is the way I feel. One section would have prosecuted while the other section was cautious from the two countries politics viewpoint because the case was so high profile is the way I see it.

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by Guest on 23.11.10 23:36

I still can't get my head around the fact that Madeleine stayed in that apartment for 5 days, and yet they couldn't find any of her DNA there. Mighty strange, almost impossible to think that could happen, and yet a pillowcase had to be retrieved from the house in Rothley which had a saliva stain. Surely, if she slept in that bed, that night as the McCanns say, her DNA would be on that pillowcase, a hair or saliva. or something? thinking

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by MrScience on 24.11.10 0:28

@aiyoyo wrote:From a layperson viewpoint, if 13 out of 19 is enough to bring prosecution in USA, then how come 15 wasnt deemed sufficient becuase of the 4 unmatched.
It's not logical those posters who said in case the 4 unmatched were proven not to be maddie.
Hello, surely it's the majority matched that counted and taken in account during prosecution otherwise how to explain the 6 out of 19 not matched yet acceptable in USA. Otherwise if that logic applies then shouldnt the same argument be used in USA, ie that the 6 out of 19 unmatched needs to be proven as well.

Still trying to wade through and understand exactly what DNA evidence is actually available in this case and to try and look at it independently.

You are correct, yes partial profiles ie less than 19 alleles matching have actually been used in cases to secure a conviction, not only in the US but also in the UK. The murder of Vicky Hamilton is one such example.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/7727020.stm

The complication with the Mc Cann case is that as far as I can gather (please correct me if i'm wrong as I'm still researching) the sample with 15 out of 19 matching alleles came from a mixed profile? - a sample containing a mixture of DNA from different people? Given that there were possibly four other members of the same biological family (Kate, Gerry and the 2 twins) carrying many of the same alleles that could have contaminated this sample, you are left with quite a messy 'soup' to try and pick apart.

I'm having a go at doing this and so far have established Madeleine's DNA profile. Now looking to do the same for the other family members and then will try to see what matches and what doesn't with any of the crime scene stains. Most interesting will be if the genotyping trace has been made available for the sample where they matched 15 out of the 19.




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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by listener on 24.11.10 1:05

candyfloss wrote:I still can't get my head around the fact that Madeleine stayed in that apartment for 5 days, and yet they couldn't find any of her DNA there. Mighty strange, almost impossible to think that could happen, and yet a pillowcase had to be retrieved from the house in Rothley which had a saliva stain. Surely, if she slept in that bed, that night as the McCanns say, her DNA would be on that pillowcase, a hair or saliva. or something?
I have not come across any explaination for this either - I expect (hope) that it will play a major part in a 'forced' re-opening!

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by MrScience on 24.11.10 1:38

@listener wrote:
candyfloss wrote:I still can't get my head around the fact that Madeleine stayed in that apartment for 5 days, and yet they couldn't find any of her DNA there. Mighty strange, almost impossible to think that could happen, and yet a pillowcase had to be retrieved from the house in Rothley which had a saliva stain. Surely, if she slept in that bed, that night as the McCanns say, her DNA would be on that pillowcase, a hair or saliva. or something?
I have not come across any explaination for this either - I expect (hope) that it will play a major part in a 'forced' re-opening!

Yes I do very much agree that something very strange has happened here if all traces of Madeleine's DNA has been wiped from the apartment. I could understand them not using a hairbrush for Madeleine's reference DNA sample as these are most likely shared by young children or even pillow cases as I guess they could have been used by others and hence cross contaminated, but the obvious thing to use from the apartment was Madeleine's toothbrush. Something very fishy if she didn't have a toothbrush or it had in some way been wiped clean of DNA - it would need to have been washed in a detergent to achieve this.

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by aiyoyo on 24.11.10 5:27

We will have to see what sleeping arrangments turn out in their book in order to make sense of the lack of dna anywhere in the apt. Not that their account would represent the GOD honest truth, but it would be interesting to see how they are going to recount it.

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by annabel on 24.11.10 5:46

Forensic reports from the FSS and John Lowe, from the PJ files


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by YNG on 24.11.10 12:11

It isn’t unusual for the police to go to the home of a missing person in order to retrieve DNA samples. Obtaining any physical evidence of identity such as recent photographs, fingerprints, DNA samples is normal practice .

I suppose had everything in this case been kosher no one would be questioning the evidence , but we know it’s far from that . For instance I personally believe at least one piece of evidence , a photograph showing Madeleine had been purposely altered , this not to mention the many other anomalies connected to this case which appear to be a manipulation of the facts and evidence. If this turns out to the case then what assurance has anyone got that the same does not apply to the DNA evidence.

Personally I don’t doubt the pillowcase sample belonged to a child or a close relative of the McCann’s, as the report states and by eliminating the twins as contributors the only obvious (child ) it could have come from was Madeleine.

The very fact that they did not retrieve any other biological evidence belonging to Madeleine from Portugal can be seen as questionable. We know the blood sample did not turn up until after all the comparisons and the FSS’s reports were finalized and like the pillowcase sample the blood sample as far as we know was not evidence gathered from the crime scene / PDL but another sample retrieved from the UK.

It’s strange that they collected samples from the apartment and other places and identified X, Y and Z but failed to identify anything that belonged to the one person who they were looking for.

Clearly they found predictable biological inheritance patterns / markers in the pillowcase sample otherwise they wouldn’t have concluded it came from a child of the McCann’s. But without another reference sample belonging to Madeleine to compare the pillow case sample to I would question whether any results could ever be seen as conclusive because they could only compare with certainty the familial components that are common to the parents and siblings … and imo that is exactly what is reflected in the report.

So the big question - is DNA profiling as evidence of genetic relationship based on respective DNA profiles showing predictable biological inheritance patterns which identify relatedness ( common markers ) between parents and children / siblings / close family, sufficient to prove that an evidence sample specifically belonged to Madeleine.

It’s also worth remembering that Madeleine would not have had the exact same DNA as her siblings and one was a different gender which narrows things down a bit.

Sorry if I’ve gone on a bit , the topic is very interesting.

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by YNG on 28.11.10 11:33

Wasn't sure where to post this but it is about forensics so I'll put it here, more food for thought



THE FORENSIC EXPERT


Dan Krane, a DNA specialist from Ohio, has been hired to defend the forensic case against them. Krane, a biology professor from Wright University in Pennsylvania, has taken part in more than 60 judgments where DNA evidence was crucial to the case.

Sedating for convenience (long flights, etc) especially for children here in the USA is illegal and known as "chemical restraint". This goes for the handicapped and anyone else who can't make their own decisions.

That is a FACT. It doesn't matter that the parents are doctors.

That's why there are "Human Rights Committees" to review such actions. I head them quarterly

You'd think that educated doctors would know better than to use sedation for convenience.

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by Daoud on 28.11.10 15:02

@aiyoyo wrote:From a layperson viewpoint, if 13 out of 19 is enough to bring prosecution in USA, then how come 15 wasnt deemed sufficient becuase of the 4 unmatched.
13 out of 19 is not enough to bring prosecution in the USA - it's 13 out of 13
It's not logical those posters who said in case the 4 unmatched were proven not to be maddie.
Hello, surely it's the majority matched that counted and taken in account during prosecution otherwise how to explain the 6 out of 19 not matched yet acceptable in USA. Otherwise if that logic applies then shouldnt the same argument be used in USA, ie that the 6 out of 19 unmatched needs to be proven as well.
See my previous comment

The DNA profiling was crucial and in the effect it was what got mccanns off - lack of forensics collaboration with circumstantial evidence. Like one poster pointed out, the sleeping arrangements of mccanns were strange with beds and people move about between the two rooms no on knows which room the children were actually sleeping in. The impression was they were sleeping in their parents room, while the parents slept in separate room. All this contributed to the confusion. Did police collect forensics from the mccanns' b/room?

If the children's room were wiped clean, then what about the parents room? Was that also given a clinical going over?

Also, why did UK police request for the DNA markers to be kept under judicial secrecy if it was deemed useless.
I think if the closing summation was done by a different AG, the interpretation could be different. A different PM interpretation would mean the mccanns would have been prosecuted given those dna markers.
The request could mean the UK police was stunned by PT decision to shelve as the DNA markers constitute enough legal grounds for prosecution and should be kept under lock and keys in order not to compromise future use. jmho of course.

I am always left wondering why the PM came up with the decision to shelve. I heard PM was changed during mid course and cant help feeling legal politiking plays a part in that. Not politicis politiking but the judiciary system in PT also have their own politics is the way I feel. One section would have prosecuted while the other section was cautious from the two countries politics viewpoint because the case was so high profile is the way I see it.

I'm not anywhere near being an expert on DNA analysis, but I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that this is a tenable example:
Your user name is 'aiyoyo' and supposing I tried to match your name to a partial text - say 'a**o*o'; if I was sure that my evidence was correct I could say that you couldn't be ruled out, but if my results were 'ax*o*o' then despite the matches with the first, fourth and sixth letters of your name, there is no way that 'ax*y*o' and 'aiyoyo' can be matched - because of that second place 'x'.

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by YNG on 28.11.10 17:38

@Daoud wrote:

I'm not anywhere near being an expert on DNA analysis, but I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that this is a tenable example:
Your user name is 'aiyoyo' and supposing I tried to match your name to a partial text - say 'a**o*o'; if I was sure that my evidence was correct I could say that you couldn't be ruled out, but if my results were 'ax*o*o' then despite the matches with the first, fourth and sixth letters of your name, there is no way that 'ax*y*o' and 'aiyoyo' can be matched - because of that second place 'x'.

The only problem there Daoud is the Forensics don't appear to have ruled the evidence out as belonging to Madeleine

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by Daoud on 28.11.10 18:37

@YNG wrote:
@Daoud wrote:

I'm not anywhere near being an expert on DNA analysis, but I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that this is a tenable example:
Your user name is 'aiyoyo' and supposing I tried to match your name to a partial text - say 'a**o*o'; if I was sure that my evidence was correct I could say that you couldn't be ruled out, but if my results were 'ax*o*o' then despite the matches with the first, fourth and sixth letters of your name, there is no way that 'ax*y*o' and 'aiyoyo' can be matched - because of that second place 'x'.

The only problem there Daoud is the Forensics don't appear to have ruled the evidence out as belonging to Madeleine

I'm not sure what you're saying here - can you expand/clarify your point?

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by YNG on 28.11.10 20:27

@Daoud wrote:
@YNG wrote:
@Daoud wrote:

I'm not anywhere near being an expert on DNA analysis, but I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that this is a tenable example:
Your user name is 'aiyoyo' and supposing I tried to match your name to a partial text - say 'a**o*o'; if I was sure that my evidence was correct I could say that you couldn't be ruled out, but if my results were 'ax*o*o' then despite the matches with the first, fourth and sixth letters of your name, there is no way that 'ax*y*o' and 'aiyoyo' can be matched - because of that second place 'x'.

The only problem there Daoud is the Forensics don't appear to have ruled the evidence out as belonging to Madeleine

I'm not sure what you're saying here - can you expand/clarify your point?

It was an inconclusive result, they could not determine whether or not the evidence came from Madeleine - “ In my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.”

This opens up the question as to whether or not it can be classified as an exclusion, because only a definite exclusion rules her out as a contributor to the evidentiary sample .

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by Daoud on 28.11.10 20:46

I think we may be on the same page here - but I'm not too sure1

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by YNG on 28.11.10 21:55

@Daoud wrote:I think we may be on the same page here - but I'm not too sure1

Hehehehehe .....

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