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What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

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What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by soulthief on 17.11.10 20:15

A magistrate and two police officers went to the Portimao appeal court to ask the Public Minister not to open the secrecy of justice on the whole of the Madeleine case. There would be various reasons for this approach, according to the Portuguese press. On the one hand there is the fact that the British police wish to keep secret the contents of the list of British citizens, classified as, "paedophiles," living in the Algarve. . The lifting of the secrecy of justice would make the contents of the list accessible to the public. The other reason according to the Portuguese press, would be the request not to lift the secrecy of justice on the results of the DNA tests.
The Birmingham lab established that 15 out of 19 genetic markers coincide perfectly with Madeleine McCann's DNA. This report was contradicted by the one that followed. The samples gathered behind the sofa, according to the first report, also coincide with the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann.
The second report states 15 markers out of 19. In the United States to convict someone takes 12 DNA markers.


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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by Tallburt on 23.11.10 11:07

Just a question......

Did the McCanns (and the twins) provide blood samples in relation to the DNA testing?

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by soulthief on 23.11.10 13:18

I haven't a clue.

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by Tallburt on 23.11.10 13:29

So where was the 'base' DNA relating to Madeleine obtained from to compare the forensic samples? I cannot find any reference to what the forensic teams used as their 'standard' but I will keep looking.

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by Guest on 23.11.10 13:32

Tallburt, and welcome to the forum

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by Daoud on 23.11.10 13:49

@soulthief wrote:A magistrate and two police officers went to the Portimao appeal court to ask the Public Minister not to open the secrecy of justice on the whole of the Madeleine case. There would be various reasons for this approach, according to the Portuguese press. On the one hand there is the fact that the British police wish to keep secret the contents of the list of British citizens, classified as, "paedophiles," living in the Algarve. . The lifting of the secrecy of justice would make the contents of the list accessible to the public. The other reason according to the Portuguese press, would be the request not to lift the secrecy of justice on the results of the DNA tests.
The Birmingham lab established that 15 out of 19 genetic markers coincide perfectly with Madeleine McCann's DNA. This report was contradicted by the one that followed. The samples gathered behind the sofa, according to the first report, also coincide with the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann.
The second report states 15 markers out of 19. In the United States to convict someone takes 12 DNA markers.


I think the norm in the US is 13 markers, not 12. As for matching 15 out of 19 - well it depends on the 4 that don't match. If they have been analysed and don't belong to Madeleine's profile, than the 15 matching ones are irrelevant - it's not her DNA. If they haven't been matched because the sample is too degraded to make a match possible, then the question remains open - all this is based on my limited understanding of DNA...

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by MrScience on 23.11.10 16:21

@Daoud wrote:I think the norm in the US is 13 markers, not 12. As for matching 15 out of 19 - well it depends on the 4 that don't match. If they have been analysed and don't belong to Madeleine's profile, than the 15 matching ones are irrelevant - it's not her DNA. If they haven't been matched because the sample is too degraded to make a match possible, then the question remains open - all this is based on my limited understanding of DNA...

Your interpretation is indeed correct. I've studied molecular biology at university level and have a fairly detailed understanding of the SGM system. I too would be very interested in having a look at the DNA results available in this case. Does anybody have a link? In particular the genotyping traces for the samples (graphs with various peaks on them) which are often open to a significant amount of subjective interpretation, particularly with mixed/contaminated profiles or where LCN analysis has been used. For valid comparison we would also need the reference genotype profile of Madeline. In addition reference traces from her parents and siblings would also yield some important clues.

Like you say Daoud, it may be that they've matched 15 out of 19 alleles but the other 4 don't belong to Madeline, so any match would indeed be very questionable. However if the other 4 alleles are present on the trace but not confirmed as they are below threshold, show poor morphology or are masked by contamination etc, that is a very different story altogether and in all likelihood a perfect 100% match.

Not sure if that information was ever made public, but would be fascinating to review if anybody has any links?


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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by littlepixie on 23.11.10 16:26

There is a brilliant thread re the forensics on the MCF
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic10087.html

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic10.html (Forensic Report)

(Hope its ok to post the link, if not please remove)

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by soulthief on 23.11.10 16:36

@Tallburt wrote:So where was the 'base' DNA relating to Madeleine obtained from to compare the forensic samples? I cannot find any reference to what the forensic teams used as their 'standard' but I will keep looking.
I think, only think mind- they got her DNA from her hairbrush as to the discussion by Daoud and mrscience I am not that savvy when it comes to forensics and DNA, I just posted something I thought may lead to interesting discussion and or revelations, so in layman terms, can you explain what I got wrong and whether you are dismissing Madeleines DNA being present, I'm lost again. Sorry but only had two hours sleep as had some bad news yesterday skull

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by MrScience on 23.11.10 16:42

@littlepixie wrote:There is a brilliant thread re the forensics on the MCF
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic10087.html

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic10.html (Forensic Report)

(Hope its ok to post the link, if not please remove)

thumbsup Thanks littlepixie, will have a look at what is available over there because if them 4 alleles are present in some form, even below threshold, it sheds a whole new light on how close they came to getting a 100% match.

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by Guest on 23.11.10 16:48

@soulthief wrote:
@Tallburt wrote:So where was the 'base' DNA relating to Madeleine obtained from to compare the forensic samples? I cannot find any reference to what the forensic teams used as their 'standard' but I will keep looking.
I think, only think mind- they got her DNA from her hairbrush as to the discussion by Daoud and mrscience I am not that savvy when it comes to forensics and DNA, I just posted something I thought may lead to interesting discussion and or revelations, so in layman terms, can you explain what I got wrong and whether you are dismissing Madeleines DNA being present, I'm lost again. Sorry but only had two hours sleep as had some bad news yesterday skull

I thought they got her DNA from a her pillowcase at her home in Rothley, which GM went to get when he came over, as none of her DNA could be found in PDL - which is very strange in itself. Can someone verify, or have I got it wrong?

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by MrScience on 23.11.10 16:52

@soulthief wrote:
@Tallburt wrote:So where was the 'base' DNA relating to Madeleine obtained from to compare the forensic samples? I cannot find any reference to what the forensic teams used as their 'standard' but I will keep looking.
I think, only think mind- they got her DNA from her hairbrush as to the discussion by Daoud and mrscience I am not that savvy when it comes to forensics and DNA, I just posted something I thought may lead to interesting discussion and or revelations, so in layman terms, can you explain what I got wrong and whether you are dismissing Madeleines DNA being present, I'm lost again. Sorry but only had two hours sleep as had some bad news yesterday skull

No you are correct soultheif, what tallburt was requesting I think was how exactly the forensic teams had established Madelines DNA profile. They would then use this profile and compare it to the one found at the crime scene and see if it matches. Hair roots from a hairbrush would seem a sensible possibility for establishing Madelines DNA profile (although the actual hair itself beyond the root does not contain any DNA).

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by MrScience on 23.11.10 16:58

candyfloss wrote:
@soulthief wrote:
@Tallburt wrote:So where was the 'base' DNA relating to Madeleine obtained from to compare the forensic samples? I cannot find any reference to what the forensic teams used as their 'standard' but I will keep looking.
I think, only think mind- they got her DNA from her hairbrush as to the discussion by Daoud and mrscience I am not that savvy when it comes to forensics and DNA, I just posted something I thought may lead to interesting discussion and or revelations, so in layman terms, can you explain what I got wrong and whether you are dismissing Madeleines DNA being present, I'm lost again. Sorry but only had two hours sleep as had some bad news yesterday skull

I thought they got her DNA from a her pillowcase at her home in Rothley, which GM went to get when he came over, as none of her DNA could be found in PDL - which is very strange in itself. Can someone verify, or have I got it wrong?

That does actually raise a significant question of whether the DNA provided as a reference sample could be trusted to be that of Madeline.

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by littlepixie on 23.11.10 17:03

From what I have read, one minute it was Madeleine's and the next minute it was not. There are some posters well versed in forensics who think the forensic reports are not up to the standards of professionals.

There is also talk of Madeleines hair only being compared to a photograph of her and because the colour and length didnt match it was disregarded which I find outrageous.

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by soulthief on 23.11.10 17:03

@MrScience wrote:
@soulthief wrote:
@Tallburt wrote:So where was the 'base' DNA relating to Madeleine obtained from to compare the forensic samples? I cannot find any reference to what the forensic teams used as their 'standard' but I will keep looking.
I think, only think mind- they got her DNA from her hairbrush as to the discussion by Daoud and mrscience I am not that savvy when it comes to forensics and DNA, I just posted something I thought may lead to interesting discussion and or revelations, so in layman terms, can you explain what I got wrong and whether you are dismissing Madeleines DNA being present, I'm lost again. Sorry but only had two hours sleep as had some bad news yesterday skull

No you are correct soultheif, what tallburt was requesting I think was how exactly the forensic teams had established Madelines DNA profile. They would then use this profile and compare it to the one found at the crime scene and see if it matches. Hair roots from a hairbrush would seem a sensible possibility for establishing Madelines DNA profile (although the actual hair itself beyond the root does not contain any DNA).
thumbsup Cheers Mrscience

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by soulthief on 23.11.10 17:05

[quote="MrScience"]
candyfloss wrote:
@soulthief wrote:
@Tallburt wrote:So where was the 'base' DNA relating to Madeleine obtained from to compare the forensic samples? I cannot find any reference to what the forensic teams used as their 'standard' but I will keep looking.
I think, only think mind- they got her DNA from her hairbrush as to the discussion by Daoud and mrscience I am not that savvy when it comes to forensics and DNA, I just posted something I thought may lead to interesting discussion and or revelations, so in layman terms, can you explain what I got wrong and whether you are dismissing Madeleines DNA being present, I'm lost again. Sorry but only had two hours sleep as had some bad news yesterday skull

I thought they got her DNA from a her pillowcase at her home in Rothley, which GM went to get when he came over, as none of her DNA could be found in PDL - which is very strange in itself. Can someone verify, or have I got it wrong?

That does actually raise a significant question of whether the DNA provided as a reference sample could be trusted to be that of Madeline. [/quote

I'm sure I read they matched it against Gerry's which also proved that rumour that Madeleine was not his biological child, could be wrong but pretty sure.

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by Guest on 23.11.10 17:10

Just checked on Pamalams site re DNA....


Followed by email (with an attachment)

From Jose de Freitas
New Scotland Yard to Inspector Ferreira


Inspector Ferreira,


DNA profile of Madeleine McCann that was collected in her parents house in England.


Regards


Jose de Freitas




All information here MrScience re DNA

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm



Some good info from files there.

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by Judge Mental on 23.11.10 17:14

and welcome to Tallburt and MrScience.

One has some very serious reservations regarding the lack of forensic evidence obtained in this case. Any discussion with regard to the DNA profiling of Madeleine McCann and the FSS in general, will be of great interest to many of our posters.

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by MrScience on 23.11.10 18:32

Thanks all, have started reading through the various emails and reports from John Lowe. With regards to the reference sample for Madeline, if the report is taken at face value, it appears to have been obtained from a saliva sample on the pillowcase. It also corresponds 50% with Gerry and 50% with Kate which is consistent with them both being her biological parents. If these conclusions are backed up somewhere with raw data, I'd be fairly convinced that Gerry is the biological father and that particular conspiracy theory could be put to bed.

However, as the report states, it could in theory be a DNA sample from any female child of the parents (eg Amelie), so I would expect to see some evidence somewhere that this has been scientifically ruled out - will keep on reading.

What I am slightly suspicious about is the fact that this is all John Lowe's written interpretation of results (very easy to mislead) rather than seeing the raw data and them specifying the different alleles found in each sample. They could for example provide numbers of each of the alleles found. More importantly I would be interested to see the genotyper traces to review independently what Mr Lowe is saying actually corresponds with the data produced by the lab. Will keep on looking to see if this information was ever made publicly available.

Outros Apensos pdf01 pages95-96 (94-95)
=====================================================================================================

The Forensic Science Service®
Wetherby Laboratory, Sandbeck Way, Audby Lane, Wetherby, West Yorkshire, LS22 7DN

FORENSIC REPORT

Officer in case: Det Supt Prior
Client: Leicestershire Police, New Parks
Police reference: 07/06085 Qperation TASK
Laboratory reference:
Order reference: 300 555190
Scientist:400 913 609
Scientist: LESLEY DENTON
Number of pages: 2


Re: Abduction of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007

A DNA profile has been obtained from the reference samples of Kate HEALY
(51162896) and Gerald McCANN (51162897).

A DNA profile has also been obtained from a pillowcase (SJM/1).

DNA profiling reveals a series of bands, half of which a child inherits from their
natural mother (maternal) and half of which ït ïnherits from their natural father
(paternal)

In this case, all of the bands present in the profïle of abtained from the pillowcase are
represented in the combined profiles of Kate HEALY and Gerald McCANN. This is
what I would expect to find if the profile obtained from the pillowcase originated from
a natural child of theirs.

The results of the DNA profife obtaïned from the pïllowcase is approximately 29
million times more likely if the profïle originates form a natural child of theirs rather
than someone unrelated to them.

In my opinion, the results detailed above provide extremely strong support for the
view that the profile obtained from the pillowcase originated from a natural child of
Kate HEALY and GERALD McCANN.

Please note: I understand that the McCANN's have a second female child. It
therefore remains a formal possibility that the DNA on the pillowcase could
have originated fromher as the genetics would be in keeping with those
described above.

If I can be of further assitance or you require a CJA statement please do not
hesitate to contact me at the laboratory on 01937 548287.

Yours sincerely



Lesley Anne Denton
FORENSIC SCIENTIS
Date: 28 June 2007

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic10.html

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by Guest on 23.11.10 18:40

MrScience on Pamalam's blog there are many charts and graphs on the DNA which I don't understand.

Don't know if you looked here - I posted earlier

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm

There is a whole section on the FSS samples on this blog


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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by Guest on 23.11.10 18:46

10-Processo 10 - 2615 to 2616
10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2515

10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2516

Letter dated 11 September regarding FSS report received by PJ
on on 4 September from Leicester Police, citing 15/19 matches of Madeleine DNA
profile

This serves to add [to the case file] a laboratory examination report prepared
in England, written in English and translated into Portuguese, delivered to this
police force on 4 September 2007 by English police officer Stuart Prior.

This laboratory report tells about the examinations made of two trace evidence
recoveries, one behind the living room sofa in apartment 5A and the other in the
boot area of the vehicle used by the McCann family, hired [by them] from the end of May this year.

In some of these recoveries (samples) DNA was found whose components are also
found in the profile of Madeleine McCann.

With respect to the trace evidence recovered behind the sofa all the confirmed
DNA components coincide with corresponding components in the DNA profile of
Madeleine McCann.

In the sample collected in the boot area of the vehicle, 15 of the identified
DNA components coincide with the corresponding components in the DNA profile of
Madeleine McCann, this of [having] 19 components.

Portimao, 11 September 2007
Inspector
Joao Carlos

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by MrScience on 23.11.10 19:33

candyfloss wrote:MrScience on Pamalam's blog there are many charts and graphs on the DNA which I don't understand.

Don't know if you looked here - I posted earlier

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm

There is a whole section on the FSS samples on this blog


thumbsup Perfect, thanks Candyfloss, exactly what I was looking for!! So this is Madelines DNA profile.

Amelo X, X (Female)
D3 16, 18
VW 14, 15
D16 11, 13
D2 17, 19
D8 13, 15
D21 29, 30
D18 12, 13
D19 13, 14
TH 9.3, 9.3
FG 22.2, 24

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/OA_1_1/01_volume_I_o_apenso_I_Page_276.jpg



- now need to go through it with a ruler to check all the peaks on the graphs correspond with the numbers provided, although this could take quite a while. Would be interested to see something similar for the parents, twins and all of the crime scene samples - then it would be possible to make a true independent assessment of the validity of John Lowe's report. Will keep trawling!


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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by Guest on 23.11.10 20:59

It has always puzzled me why samples were destroyed in a case that is not solved. Many cold cases are solved from years and years ago using blood/semen/finger nail scrapings etc. which have been kept and stored in a refrigerated environment. Why were these destroyed.


09- Processo 09 IX Page 2282
also Outros Apensos VolI Page 97
09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2282

Date 2007.08.21

Letter from the FSS

Destruction of Samples


Investigating officer. Stuart Prior


A - Perishable samples.

Certain samples constitute a potential health risk. With the concurrence of the Home Office, it has been decided that such samples will not be submitted to the courts unless specifically requested by the Defence. (This is an extension of the procedures for the disposal of blood samples previously agreed by the Lord Chief Justice, the Director of Public Prosecutions and the former Chief Metropolitan Magistrate.

The laboratory has examined one or more of the samples listed below. They will not be returned to you but will be destroyed in due course unless we are requested by the Defence to preserve them. You should notify the Defence solicitors in accordance with Home Office circulars 40/73 and 74/82 which allow a period of 21 days in which notice in writing must be given, by the defendant or his legal representative to the laboratory to prevent the samples being destroyed.

- Blood samples.
- Saliva samples.
- Swabs from body orifices.
- Other swabs bearing potentially hazardous material.
- Vomit, faeces, urine, etc.

The above list includes perishable personal samples, the destruction of which is required by Section 64 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (1984).

B - Non-Perishable samples

The destruction of other, non-perishable personal samples is required by Section 64 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. These include:

- Control head hair samples.
- Control pubic hair samples.
- Finger nail samples.
- Casts- e.g of teeth or feet.

Except as below those non-perishable personal samples are returned to you as parts of exhibits for production at court, etc. The laboratory is not responsible for their destruction.

The part of these samples which were removed for examination, will be retained by the laboratory for the period of time as specified in the MOU for Retained Materials (3, 7 or 30 years) from the date of this notice to allow access to other legitimate parties. After this period, in the absence of written instruction to the contrary, the retained samples will be destroyed and a record made of their destruction.

Signed.

Dated 21st August 2007.


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm



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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by soulthief on 23.11.10 21:13

So basically the hair and samples should have been returned to the PJ? Ammirite? confused

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Re: What possible innocent explanation for the request made to keep the DNA results secret?

Post by YNG on 23.11.10 22:47

@Judge Mental wrote: and welcome to Tallburt and MrScience.

One has some very serious reservations regarding the lack of forensic evidence obtained in this case. Any discussion with regard to the DNA profiling of Madeleine McCann and the FSS in general, will be of great interest to many of our posters.

Oh , interesting thread ,

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