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Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by aiyoyo on 29.08.13 12:56

This is what I dont understand, surely the creche record is verifiable only by checking with the Staff.

Who saw her on her run though?

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by Penfold on 29.08.13 13:25

It appears no-one saw her on the run -or she'd have doubtless wittered on about it.

At 4.30 she and Gerry had finished their lesson with the tennis pro. Then 'another guest' turned up and Gerry decided to have a game with him/her. Kate took off for a run along the beach, and spotted  the rest of the holiday group who had only just arrived at the beach. 

She got to the Tapas bar at 5.30, where Gerry, Madeleine and the twins  were already having their tea, [despite the fact that she's supposed to have picked up Madeleine herself from wherever  at 5. 30.] Gerry must have had a very quick game of tennis with the 'other guest' in order to play, pick up  3 kids from 2 different clubs, get to the Tapas, order and be eating tea, all within an hour. Clever boy.

Then he was off for even more tennis with Payne, Oldfield and O'Brien at 6. Busy, and clever!

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by Penfold on 29.08.13 13:41

... continued!

Ten minutes later  [5.40?] the five of them returned to the apartment. Gerry left just before 6 for his social tennis  with Payne, Oldfield and O'Brien. At 6.40 Payne turns up while she is in her bath towel, asking if he could help her take them down to the play area. Why is it not Gerry volunteering, one asks. Gerry back at 7 pm prompt,[ after another quick fire straight sets tennis match I assume!]  just in time for Madeleine's bedtime 'wee wee'. Dear God.

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by PeterMac on 29.08.13 15:00

book
Having arranged for Gerry to meet the children, I opted to go for a run along the beach, where I spotted the rest of our holiday group. They saw me and shouted some words of encouragement. At least, I think that’s what they were shouting! I remember feeling fleetingly disappointed that we hadn’t known they were all heading for the beach, as it might have been nice to have joined them, especially for the kids. I wondered whether Madeleine had been OK about staying behind at Mini Club when Russ or Jane had collected Ella. I wasn’t to know at that stage that in fact they had only just arrived when I ran by. It’s hard work being a mum sometimes, fretting about the possible effects of the smallest of incidents on your children. I’m sure a lot of these worries are unfounded but it doesn’t stop us having them, and we’ll probably go on having them for the rest of our lives.
far too much detail, yet again. Wondering about Madeleine - hard work being a Mum (You really couldn't make that up !)

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by BerylJ on 29.08.13 15:20

@Penfold wrote:Strikes me there is no room for two others at that table anyway - the McCs would have had to stand up [and possibly spill their drinks!]
Do we know who the person sitting on ROB's left is- he looks younger than the rest of the group -teenaged maybe?
Yes Penfold, who is the person sat to the left of O'brien by the side of a child in a highchair. Must be part of the group to be sat there if only by invitation to join them but no mention anywhere of a holiday acquaintance, or is this the mystery tapas person? And the little girl sat on Russel O'Briens knee, for the second I thought that it was Madeleine.

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by aiyoyo on 29.08.13 15:59

@Penfold wrote:... continued!

Ten minutes later  [5.40?] the five of them returned to the apartment. Gerry left just before 6 for his social tennis  with Payne, Oldfield and O'Brien. At 6.40 Payne turns up while she is in her bath towel, asking if he could help her take them down to the play area. Why is it not Gerry volunteering, one asks. Gerry back at 7 pm prompt,[ after another quick fire straight sets tennis match I assume!]  just in time for Madeleine's bedtime 'wee wee'. Dear God.

Maddie signed out from the Creche at 5.30, not forgetting the twins had to be collected as well, walked them three to the Tapas Bar, sit them down, order the food, wait for the food, eat the food, yet 10 mins later at 5.40 they were already back in the apt ?

Incredulous all those things can be done and completed in 10 minutes involving 3 young children.
Even 10 mins alone is not long enough for any child to finish eating let alone all the rest.

Something does not gel.

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by aiyoyo on 29.08.13 16:11

@PeterMac wrote:book
Having arranged for Gerry to meet the children, I opted to go for a run along the beach, where I spotted the rest of our holiday group. They saw me and shouted some words of encouragement. At least, I think that’s what they were shouting! I remember feeling fleetingly disappointed that we hadn’t known they were all heading for the beach, as it might have been nice to have joined them, especially for the kids. I wondered whether Madeleine had been OK about staying behind at Mini Club when Russ or Jane had collected Ella. I wasn’t to know at that stage that in fact they had only just arrived when I ran by. It’s hard work being a mum sometimes, fretting about the possible effects of the smallest of incidents on your children. I’m sure a lot of these worries are unfounded but it doesn’t stop us having them, and we’ll probably go on having them for the rest of our lives.
far too much detail, yet again.  Wondering about Madeleine - hard work being a Mum (You really couldn't make that up !)
Even though she'd not known before, surely when she spotted them it wasn't  too late to take her children to join them since she was concerned about Maddie missing out.  Why think about it and not do something about it ?

Too much details that do not make any sense at all.  All very contrived.   An over think from trying to imagine best way to retrofit to a false situation/scenario and spoiling it by over explained - a typical sign of something to hide. Lying her way out.

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by Guest on 29.08.13 16:14

@aiyoyo wrote:
@Penfold wrote:... continued!

Ten minutes later  [5.40?] the five of them returned to the apartment. Gerry left just before 6 for his social tennis  with Payne, Oldfield and O'Brien. At 6.40 Payne turns up while she is in her bath towel, asking if he could help her take them down to the play area. Why is it not Gerry volunteering, one asks. Gerry back at 7 pm prompt,[ after another quick fire straight sets tennis match I assume!]  just in time for Madeleine's bedtime 'wee wee'. Dear God.
Maddie signed out from the Creche at 5.30, not forgetting the twins had to be collected as well, walked them  three  to the Tapas Bar, sit them down, order the food, wait for the food, eat the food, yet 10 mins later at 5.40 they were already back in the apt ?

Incredulous all those things can be done and completed in 10 minutes involving 3 young children.
 Even 10 mins alone is not long enough for any child to finish eating let alone all the rest.

Something does not gel.

No it doesn't.

It explains Kate could not remember what they ate
"perhaps pasta..."


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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by aiyoyo on 29.08.13 16:20

parapono wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
@Penfold wrote:... continued!

Ten minutes later  [5.40?] the five of them returned to the apartment. Gerry left just before 6 for his social tennis  with Payne, Oldfield and O'Brien. At 6.40 Payne turns up while she is in her bath towel, asking if he could help her take them down to the play area. Why is it not Gerry volunteering, one asks. Gerry back at 7 pm prompt,[ after another quick fire straight sets tennis match I assume!]  just in time for Madeleine's bedtime 'wee wee'. Dear God.
Maddie signed out from the Creche at 5.30, not forgetting the twins had to be collected as well, walked them  three  to the Tapas Bar, sit them down, order the food, wait for the food, eat the food, yet 10 mins later at 5.40 they were already back in the apt ?

Incredulous all those things can be done and completed in 10 minutes involving 3 young children.
 Even 10 mins alone is not long enough for any child to finish eating let alone all the rest.

Something does not gel.

No it doesn't.

It explains Kate could not remember what they ate
"perhaps pasta..."

Tin Spaghetti hoops ? Minus the toast.

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by Hicks on 29.08.13 16:58

Cherry Blossom wrote:
@whmon wrote:
@Penfold wrote:I would hope they have the later pictures.
A high chair appears at their table at 17.34 - which child would this be for?
 Very interesting! There is also a pushchair present.


17.47: A small girl appears

17.52: A second child

18.12: Third child is present.
Found this with people named but not children

That could almost be Madeleine on JT lap. How many girls were in the group?

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by PeterMac on 29.08.13 17:20

The whole point was to 'prove' that Madeleine was alive and well at 5:30.
So it gets emphasised (and as usual they muck it up by saying two different and contradictory things - (tea and creche reports))
What is also emphasised is that there are no witnesses, so we have to rely on what the parents tell us. Again this is overstated.
It is information which was available to an investigator through examination of the photos, and did not need stating independently. But it was !

And the only other "proof" that Madeleine was alive and well at lunchtime that day is the "Last Photo", which has been the subject of critical examination since it was released.
And yet again they bang on about the time recorded and how the clock in the camera might have been an hour out - all useless information, overstated, and incidentally not said of any of the other photos.

Add the two together and we begin to get the feeling that Madeleine was already NOT alive and well at lunchtime.
The Payne visit later that day is yet another attempt, 30 seconds / 5 minutes, did / did not enter the apartment, Kate in a towel, / not in a towel, and absolutely no possible genuine reason for the visit in the first place.

So three attempts to "prove", or as Poo Bah said “Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative."

Sadly it doesn't, and it focusses attention on exactly the opposite; the lack of any proof of her continued existence.

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by susible on 29.08.13 17:58

I think it is either Jane or Rachel to the left of O'Brien in the Paraiso footage, most likely Rachel, you can quite clearly see the ponytail (that Rachel often had) in the blow up pic, also Russel was tall, so a shorter woman sitting next to him would make her look smaller than she actually is.

Main point though, the girl on O'Brien's knee does look a lot like Madeleine and this has been speculated upon before, that Tanner and O'Brien's daughter was just a few months younger than Madeleine and did indeed have similarities.  Therefore, the suggestion that JT's and ROB's daughter was substituted for Madeleine on the afternoon of the 3rd is plausible.  The footage shows them arriving at Paraiso at 5.31 and Madeleine's departure from creche at 5.30 could be acceptable, as I know that I have signed my daughter out of her nursery as being 5.30pm, when in fact it's 5.24 or something like that, as I tended to just round it to the nearest time, and I imagine that many people would do that and creche workers wouldn't be concerned about it.

Can't confirm that right now though as I haven't double checked the creche records to see when JT and RoB's eldest daughter was actually signed out that day (and am not feeling very well today and don't think I have the energy to check it lol)

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by susible on 29.08.13 18:01

@Hicks wrote:
Cherry Blossom wrote:
@whmon wrote:
@Penfold wrote:I would hope they have the later pictures.
A high chair appears at their table at 17.34 - which child would this be for?
 Very interesting! There is also a pushchair present.


17.47: A small girl appears

17.52: A second child

18.12: Third child is present.
Found this with people named but not children

That could almost be Madeleine on JT lap. How many girls were in the group?
Sean was the only boy, there were 7 girls in the group.  The Paynes had two daughters, the Oldfields one, Tanner and O'Brien two and the McCanns had two girls also

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by susible on 29.08.13 18:04

Also I think the labeling on that pic in the Paraiso is wrong, I don't think it is Rachel standing, I think that is Fiona Payne, and I do think it is Rachel sitting next to Russel at the table

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by Hobs on 29.08.13 18:04

It makes me wonder who they are trying to convince?

Us, them or everyone and their pet rock:spin:

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by whmon on 29.08.13 18:43

There are a total of 5 children in the CCTV images but I think the child who appears in the bottom right by the bar at 17:38 and 17:59 is not part of the group. So that would mean all children except the 3 Mccanns were present.

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by Penfold on 29.08.13 18:53

The McCs weren't at the Paraiso that night: Gerry and 3 kids supposedly at Tapas Bar eating at 5.30, according to K's book, joined by Kate, then off to apartment for showers, bedtimes etc, and then off to Tapas Bar. The rest of the group ate at the Paraiso after their McCann-less trip to the beach.

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by susible on 29.08.13 18:58

@Penfold wrote:The McCs weren't at the Paraiso that night: Gerry and 3 kids supposedly at Tapas Bar eating at 5.30, according to K's book, joined by Kate, then off to apartment for showers, bedtimes etc, and then off to Tapas Bar. The rest of the group ate at the Paraiso after their McCann-less trip to the beach.
I don't think that the McCann's absence is in doubt.  I think the issue revolves moreso around why the were absent, had something already happened to Madeleine at that point?  Why did the rest of the group, minus the McCanns decide to take their kids to eat there that night etc

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Eating at 5.30 AND 8.30?

Post by Seek truth on 29.08.13 20:10

So they ate at 5.30,
Then again went to eat at 8.30?? I'd be too full, I'd have to eat much later then!
Sounds like too much eating.

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by susible on 29.08.13 20:24

@Seek truth wrote:So they ate at 5.30,
Then again went to eat at 8.30?? I'd be too full, I'd have to eat much later then!
Sounds like too much eating.
No, I don't think the adults were eating, I think it was mainly for the kids, get them fed and back to the apartment, baths, stories, milk, bed  yada yada, then off to the tapas to enjoy "their" holiday

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by Seek truth on 29.08.13 20:43

@susible wrote:
@Seek truth wrote:So they ate at 5.30,
Then again went to eat at 8.30?? I'd be too full, I'd have to eat much later then!
Sounds like too much eating.
No, I don't think the adults were eating, I think it was mainly for the kids, get them fed and back to the apartment, baths, stories, milk, bed  yada yada, then off to the tapas to enjoy "their" holiday
Tearful at the moment because;

It breaks my heart to know that they could have eaten together there at 5.30 with the children! Instead of later. Then meet up for a quick drink instead, spending less time out.  But no, they had to eat without them.sad1 

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by plebgate on 29.08.13 21:10

I also think it is sad SeekTruth, but it was their holiday too, we must not forget that!!!!!

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by aiyoyo on 30.08.13 1:43

@PeterMac wrote:The whole point was to 'prove' that Madeleine was alive and well at 5:30.
So it gets emphasised (and as usual they muck it up by saying two different and contradictory things - (tea and creche reports))
What is also emphasised is that there are no witnesses, so we have to rely on what the parents tell us.  Again this is overstated.
It is information which was available to an investigator through examination of the photos, and did not need stating independently. But it was !

And the only other "proof" that Madeleine was alive and well at lunchtime that day is the "Last Photo", which has been the subject of critical examination since it was released.
And yet again they bang on about the time recorded and how the clock in the camera might have been an hour out - all useless information, overstated, and incidentally not said of any of the other photos.

 Good point.  

Add the two together and we begin to get the feeling that Madeleine was already NOT alive and well at lunchtime.
The Payne visit later that day is yet another attempt, 30 seconds / 5 minutes, did / did not enter the apartment, Kate in a towel, / not in a towel, and absolutely no possible genuine reason for the visit in the first place.




 
Precisely.  Especially considering Gerry left from the apartment not that long ago....mere minutes at most ...absolutely no possible valid reason for the visit.

If the reason was to give Kate an alibi  -- another "proof" that Madeleine was alive and well at tea time, perhaps the visit was a make-believe, hence the discrepancy in their statements.  
There was no independent alibi for Payne's visit anyway.
Kate & Payne have each other for alibi, yet their accounts did not tally.

All things considered, Kate alone was left to try very hard to create incidences to "prove" Maddie was alive and well on the 3rd.  
You have to wonder why ?  Why her ?  Where was Gerry on the 3rd mostly...apart from tennis ...?  
Not joining the friends and not doing things with Kate would suggest he was doing something else on his own ?  What though ?



So three attempts to "prove", or as Poo Bah said “Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative."

Sadly it doesn't, and it focusses attention on exactly the opposite; the lack of any proof of her continued existence.


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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by Seek truth on 30.08.13 5:27

 aiyoyo wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:The whole point was to 'prove' that Madeleine was alive and well at 5:30.
So it gets emphasised (and as usual they muck it up by saying two different and contradictory things - (tea and creche reports))
What is also emphasised is that there are no witnesses, so we have to rely on what the parents tell us.  Again this is overstated.
It is information which was available to an investigator through examination of the photos, and did not need stating independently. But it was !

And the only other "proof" that Madeleine was alive and well at lunchtime that day is the "Last Photo", which has been the subject of critical examination since it was released.
And yet again they bang on about the time recorded and how the clock in the camera might have been an hour out - all useless information, overstated, and incidentally not said of any of the other photos.

 Good point.  

Add the two together and we begin to get the feeling that Madeleine was already NOT alive and well at lunchtime.
The Payne visit later that day is yet another attempt, 30 seconds / 5 minutes, did / did not enter the apartment, Kate in a towel, / not in a towel, and absolutely no possible genuine reason for the visit in the first place.




 
Precisely.  Especially considering Gerry left from the apartment not that long ago....mere minutes at most ...absolutely no possible valid reason for the visit.

If the reason was to give Kate an alibi  -- another "proof" that Madeleine was alive and well at tea time, perhaps the visit was a make-believe, hence the discrepancy in their statements.  
There was no independent alibi for Payne's visit anyway.
Kate & Payne have each other for alibi, yet their accounts did not tally.

All things considered, Kate alone was left to try very hard to create incidences to "prove" Maddie was alive and well on the 3rd.  
You have to wonder why ?  Why her ?  Where was Gerry on the 3rd mostly...apart from tennis ...?  
Not joining the friends and not doing things with Kate would suggest he was doing something else on his own ?  What though ?



So three attempts to "prove", or as Poo Bah said “Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative."

Sadly it doesn't, and it focusses attention on exactly the opposite; the lack of any proof of her continued existence.

That's right. 

Also  the whole thing wasn't planned out professionally, which makes me think, it was all unexpected and THEIR own doing, they had no help from anyone, the help and coverup came afterwards.

Also this explains why Tanner forgot to mention when she went back to finish eating and never said anything TWICE. The first, she would have been concerned, seeing a man carrying a child and told her friends, go check on your children, I saw a man carrying a child.
Secondly, if Kate had run out saying she's gone, Tanner would have said "it must have been the man I saw, lets see if we can find him, he went that way.  Kate then tries to shift the blame on someone else, that when she went out next morning at 6 am she was upset there was nobody there! AND why was there nobody there at 6 ? Because they'd been searching all night (Did she not know the portugese police had their own dogs too searching. Wasn't just the British sniffer dogs later on)
See how she states from 6am, because she knew they may have all gone home to rest, after searching all night which was the time closer to when MM disappeared. BUT SHE thinks its best to go at 6am on the 4th May!!! When its harder for her to be spotted, nobody could see HOW she searched!

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by PeterMac on 30.08.13 7:39

@susible wrote:
@Seek truth wrote:So they ate at 5.30,
Then again went to eat at 8.30?? I'd be too full, I'd have to eat much later then!
Sounds like too much eating.
No, I don't think the adults were eating, I think it was mainly for the kids, get them fed and back to the apartment, baths, stories, milk, bed  yada yada, then off to the tapas to enjoy "their" holiday
Why didn't they have a nice family tea in the apartment ?
Or would the twins have seen something nasty ?

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